Use of the "Alliance War Citizen" rank for PvE players in PvP

Enodoc · July 2014

I have seen a couple of threads regarding PvE in Cyrodiil, particularly for those who do not like to PvP. I presented this suggestion in one of those threads, but wanted to start a new discussion based around this idea for people to comment directly on. The idea involves making considerable use of the "Alliance War Citizen" PvP rank (ie, PvP Rank 0), which currently serves no actual purpose, for players who want to focus on Cyrodiil's PvE.

If you don't want to participate in PvP, then this rank should be used as your saving grace. While it would not protect you from being killed by other players, anyone who kills a "Citizen" should be severly prosecuted, as one would be by killing any non-combatant in a warzone. To indicate their status as Citizens, they would have the yellow "passive" glow instead of the standard red "hostile" glow.

Anyone who kills a Citizen would have a bounty put on their head which could be collected on by any (non-hostile) NPC guard of any faction, or any player of an enemy faction, once the Justice System is implemented (exploits may arise I think if the bounty could be collected on by a player of the killer's own faction).

Citizens themselves would not gain Alliance Points for successfully defeating their attacker, thereby retaining their Citizen status. But if they go around killing players of the enemy factions without this provocation, they would immediately* be bumped to Volunteer and would no longer be eligible for the Citizen benefits.

[* Immediately based on the fact that you get near enough 700AP (the requirement to reach Rank 1) for one player kill.]

There would also be the option to "Resign" from the war, at the cost of all your Alliance Points, your leaderboard position, and every rank and title you have earned, in order to become a Citizen. (The high cost is so that this wouldn't be exploited by people looking to make a quick pass as a "Citizen" to get into an otherwise-hostile area.)

Samadhi · July 2014

In Cyrodiil, the shop NPCs are hostile to enemy alliances.

It is proper that I only receive punishment if I kill Citizens of my own alliance, certainly not enemy alliances.

Enodoc · July 2014

Samadhi wrote: »

In Cyrodiil, the shop NPCs are hostile to enemy alliances.

It is proper that I only receive punishment if I kill Citizens of my own alliance, certainly not enemy alliances.

Hostile in what way? If the NPCs actively attack you, then they are not non-combatants. If they just have hostile mannerisms, then it would still be a punishable offence to kill them. Regardless of political affiliation, in a warzone, you are only allowed to kill military personnel and other hostile elements. Citizens of an enemy alliance are not hostile, by the definition of Citizen.

Edit: Also, you cannot kill players of your own alliance anyway.

ebondeath · July 2014

Interesting and well-thought out. I like it.

Enkil · July 2014

I like it.. and btw....Move Along Citizen!!!

Sharee · July 2014

No. Any player in cyrodiil has to be a legitimate target. Otherwise youll soon have 'citizens' spying and reporting on enemy troop movements.

If you really want to just pve, ask for a pve-only phase of cyrodiil where you cannot see enemy players and keeps/scrolls are not capturable.

Samadhi · July 2014

Enodoc wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

In Cyrodiil, the shop NPCs are hostile to enemy alliances.

It is proper that I only receive punishment if I kill Citizens of my own alliance, certainly not enemy alliances.

Hostile in what way? If the NPCs actively attack you, then they are not non-combatants. If they just have hostile mannerisms, then it would still be a punishable offence to kill them.

Edit: Also, you cannot kill players of your own alliance anyway.

They actively attack because there are no non-combatants in Cyrodiil. It is a warzone between alliances. Even the "common worker" is supporting their respective war effort.

There is no reason to penalize players for killing enemy players on the only map in game designed for PvP.

How about instead of modifying the only PvP map to penalize players for killing enemy players, ZOS modifies the game so that all maps are Open World PvP and you penalize players outside of Cyrodiil instead?
I'd gladly take a bounty for killing one of my own alliance's citizens in our alliance zones. It would provide interesting flavour to the game.

UrQuan · July 2014

I don't think this is a good idea. I'm primarily a PVE player myself, but I think that implementing something like this would negatively effect the gameplay of a lot of PVP players. We've already got a separation so that if you don't want to play with the constant concern of possibly being attacked by another player you simply stay out of Cyrodil. By implementing something like this, everyone in Cyrodil will simply set themselves to "Alliance War Citizen" all the time, except for right when they want to join an attack on a keep or something. I feel like this would cause a large decrease in actual PVP activity.

Enodoc · July 2014

Sharee wrote: »

No. Any player in cyrodiil has to be a legitimate target. Otherwise youll soon have 'citizens' spying and reporting on enemy troop movements.

If you really want to just pve, ask for a pve-only phase of cyrodiil where you cannot see enemy players and keeps/scrolls are not capturable.

Hmm, that's an interesting point. I'll have to think about that.

(PvE-only Cyrodiil was what the thread I moved this out of was about; I wanted to present a different suggestion.)

Enodoc · July 2014

Samadhi wrote: »

They actively attack because there are no non-combatants in Cyrodiil. It is a warzone between alliances. Even the "common worker" is supporting their respective war effort.

I'm sure there were non-hostile NPCs wandering around Cheydinhal or somewhere when I went there... but if there are truly no non-combatants, then I guess this suggestion doesn't really work.

Ur-Quan wrote: »

I don't think this is a good idea. I'm primarily a PVE player myself, but I think that implementing something like this would negatively effect the gameplay of a lot of PVP players. We've already got a separation so that if you don't want to play with the constant concern of possibly being attacked by another player you simply stay out of Cyrodil. By implementing something like this, everyone in Cyrodil will simply set themselves to "Alliance War Citizen" all the time, except for right when they want to join an attack on a keep or something. I feel like this would cause a large decrease in actual PVP activity.

Hence the forfeiting of every Alliance War benefit if you choose to make that switch. And staying out of Cyrodiil is not an option if you want to do the Cyrodiil quests.

Enkil · July 2014

Sharee wrote: »

No. Any player in cyrodiil has to be a legitimate target. Otherwise youll soon have 'citizens' spying and reporting on enemy troop movements.

If you really want to just pve, ask for a pve-only phase of cyrodiil where you cannot see enemy players and keeps/scrolls are not capturable.

Yo, he said...

While it would not protect you from being killed by other players

.

It's kinda like declaring yourself neutral the alliance war, and therefore murdering you is a crime.

Problem is, these "citizens" could easily move about the area and report troop movements, in effect acting as spies.....

gurluasb16_ESO · July 2014

Maybe this could be solved by making Citizens lose their neutrality if they enter enemy keeps/resource camps or do pvp related quests.

I'd really like this as I'd want to do the PVE quests in peace before throwing myself into the PVP content. It's not fun to be constantly camped and killed by gankers while trying to do a quest.

Samadhi · July 2014

Enodoc wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

They actively attack because there are no non-combatants in Cyrodiil. It is a warzone between alliances. Even the "common worker" is supporting their respective war effort.

I'm sure there were non-hostile NPCs wandering around Cheydinhal or somewhere when I went there... but if there are truly no non-combatants, then I guess this suggestion doesn't really work.
...

NPCs in Cheydinhal are not in any alliance.
There are no Covenant, Pact or Dominion citizens in Cyrodiil. The citizens of each alliance remain in their respective alliance zones. The motive of the war is that the three alliances are making a military push into the Imperial Province to control the Empire.

The only way the system you propose would make sense to me is if players received bonus points for killing an player flagged as a citizen -- elimination of a spy bonus.
I can't see a warlord penalizing the elimination of an enemy in the warzone though.

gurluasb16_ESO · July 2014

There are many non-combatants belonging to the factions.

murmur · July 2014

Enodoc wrote: »

There would also be the option to "Resign" from the war, at the cost of all your Alliance Points, your leaderboard position, and every rank and title you have earned, in order to become a Citizen. (The high cost is so that this wouldn't be exploited by people looking to make a quick pass as a "Citizen" to get into an otherwise-hostile area.)

Do you know that each rank you get also gives you a skill point. So you would need to lose all skill points gained from ranks too or people would start to go to rank one -> gain skill point -> go back to citizen -> go to rank one again -> gain next skill point.

UrQuan · July 2014

Enodoc wrote: »

Hence the forfeiting of every Alliance War benefit if you choose to make that switch.

I missed that part of your post (or rather, I didn't fully understand what you were saying - give me a break, it's early in the morning here and I hadn't had my coffee yet). I still think you'd see a lot of people misusing this, though, because not everyone who spends time in Cyrodil cares about the Alliance War benefits.

Enodoc · July 2014

gurluasb16_ESO wrote: »

Maybe this could be solved by making Citizens lose their neutrality if they enter enemy keeps/resource camps or do pvp related quests.

Yes indeed, that would make sense. If you do a PvP-related quest, you would be rewarded Alliance Points and that would automatically kick you out of Citizen.

As a "PvE player" (or "Citizen") you would have no business being in an enemy keep, as they are military installations, so it would make sense if there were no penalty if anyone killed you in there.

gurluasb16_ESO wrote: »

There are many non-combatants belonging to the factions.

@Samadhi could you give an example of a non-guard, not neutral NPC (merchant, common worker) who would attack if you went near them? I'm not disputing your issues with the suggestion, as they are entirely valid as presented, I'm just trying to understand the situation so I can address it properly.
I'm also still thinking about this spy business, as that was something I hadn't really thought about before, and want to come up with a good solution for.

Enodoc · July 2014

murmur wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

There would also be the option to "Resign" from the war, at the cost of all your Alliance Points, your leaderboard position, and every rank and title you have earned, in order to become a Citizen. (The high cost is so that this wouldn't be exploited by people looking to make a quick pass as a "Citizen" to get into an otherwise-hostile area.)

Do you know that each rank you get also gives you a skill point. So you would need to lose all skill points gained from ranks too or people would start to go to rank one -> gain skill point -> go back to citizen -> go to rank one again -> gain next skill point.

Ah crud I had forgotten that. In which case, you would resign at the cost of all your Alliance Points, your leaderboard position, and every rank you have earned; however your titles would be kept (altered to say "Former Volunteer", "Former Captain", etc), and if you rejoined the war effort, you would gain back your rank titles per rank, but would not earn any new skill points for them.

Ur-Quan wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Hence the forfeiting of every Alliance War benefit if you choose to make that switch.

I missed that part of your post (or rather, I didn't fully understand what you were saying - give me a break, it's early in the morning here and I hadn't had my coffee yet). I still think you'd see a lot of people misusing this, though, because not everyone who spends time in Cyrodil cares about the Alliance War benefits.

Would you agree that the greatest "misuse" of the system would be spying? Or can you think of other ways it could be misused? I'm still thinking about the spying thing...

zdkazz · July 2014

the issue with this is for people who dont care about alliance wars points, they would then make there char a citizen to give them a surprise advantage against the enemy. Alot of people dont care about the points instead they would make them selves citizen so you dont look at them twice and then they hamstring you, this system is to exploitable.

UrQuan · July 2014

Enodoc wrote: »

Ur-Quan wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Hence the forfeiting of every Alliance War benefit if you choose to make that switch.

I missed that part of your post (or rather, I didn't fully understand what you were saying - give me a break, it's early in the morning here and I hadn't had my coffee yet). I still think you'd see a lot of people misusing this, though, because not everyone who spends time in Cyrodil cares about the Alliance War benefits.

Would you agree that the greatest "misuse" of the system would be spying? Or can you think of other ways it could be misused? I'm still thinking about the spying thing...

Griefers would misuse it. Get a group together, waltz around enemy territory relatively safely (because everyone thinks that they're not going to do PVP), get to a likely spot, and start ganking lvl 10s.

Enodoc · July 2014

zdkazz wrote: »

the issue with this is for people who dont care about alliance wars points, they would then make there char a citizen to give them a surprise advantage against the enemy. Alot of people dont care about the points instead they would make them selves citizen so you dont look at them twice and then they hamstring you, this system is to exploitable.

Yes I understand that this is a concern, but how would it be exploitable? If you can come up with some examples I can try to refine the idea in order to alleviate them.

zdkazz · July 2014

Enodoc wrote: »

zdkazz wrote: »

the issue with this is for people who dont care about alliance wars points, they would then make there char a citizen to give them a surprise advantage against the enemy. Alot of people dont care about the points instead they would make them selves citizen so you dont look at them twice and then they hamstring you, this system is to exploitable.

Yes I understand that this is a concern, but how would it be exploitable? If you can come up with some examples I can try to refine the idea in order to alleviate them.

(example not really how I am lol)I am a pvper, I dont care about alliance points, But I want an advantage in pvp, im in it for the kill the rush ect, so I put my char as a citizen, i then am walking around and see an enemy, he sees me and dosent attack as he dosent want the penalty applied to him, it allows me to attack first, giving me an upper hand and an advantage in that pvp encounter.

ItsMeToo · July 2014

zdkazz wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

zdkazz wrote: »

the issue with this is for people who dont care about alliance wars points, they would then make there char a citizen to give them a surprise advantage against the enemy. Alot of people dont care about the points instead they would make them selves citizen so you dont look at them twice and then they hamstring you, this system is to exploitable.

Yes I understand that this is a concern, but how would it be exploitable? If you can come up with some examples I can try to refine the idea in order to alleviate them.

(example not really how I am lol)I am a pvper, I dont care about alliance points, But I want an advantage in pvp, im in it for the kill the rush ect, so I put my char as a citizen, i then am walking around and see an enemy, he sees me and dosent attack as he dosent want the penalty applied to him, it allows me to attack first, giving me an upper hand and an advantage in that pvp encounter.

One solution might be...

If a Citizen Player attacks a player first, no matter if it's another Citizen player or a PvP player, all the damage from their own attack would apply to themselves. This would help to stop that exploit advantage.

Cyrdemaceb17_ESO · July 2014

I think it is possible to introduce such a system without too much exploit. So you can only be a citizen as long as you don't have any higher rank already. Higher rank removes the citizen option permanently.
And killing a citizen outside keeps in Cyrodiil should actually suntract AP instead of adding them.

But what to do with player explotiting citizenship for spying? Having no access to the zone-chat is one option. But TS or guilds can negate this.
And troop movements are really that important?
When I sneak around and see a large group passing by, I can give up their location but only guess their target.

When those groups now about such information givers, their could switch headings to counter these on their own..like the zig-zag course of ships during ww2 to confuse submarines.

There are possibilities to introduce this system. Maybe even in coordination with the justice system.

Now comes the BUT: but giving players an easy way to get all the achievements in Cyrodiil negates the harder work, pvp-players had to do for getting them.

dennissomb16_ESO · July 2014

Interesting idea but I would be against it. Simply for the same reasons I usually argue against the people looking for open world PvP. Cyrodil is a PvP zone. The PvP players there should have all development put into adding/improving PvP . A bit simplistic, but hopefully you get my general drift

zdkazz · July 2014

ItsMeToo wrote: »

zdkazz wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

zdkazz wrote: »

the issue with this is for people who dont care about alliance wars points, they would then make there char a citizen to give them a surprise advantage against the enemy. Alot of people dont care about the points instead they would make them selves citizen so you dont look at them twice and then they hamstring you, this system is to exploitable.

Yes I understand that this is a concern, but how would it be exploitable? If you can come up with some examples I can try to refine the idea in order to alleviate them.

(example not really how I am lol)I am a pvper, I dont care about alliance points, But I want an advantage in pvp, im in it for the kill the rush ect, so I put my char as a citizen, i then am walking around and see an enemy, he sees me and dosent attack as he dosent want the penalty applied to him, it allows me to attack first, giving me an upper hand and an advantage in that pvp encounter.

One solution might be...

If a Citizen Player attacks a player first, no matter if it's another Citizen player or a PvP player, all the damage from their own attack would apply to themselves. This would help to stop that exploit advantage.

but the game would have to recognize who attacked first, and change the system to apply, this might cause lag and other issues

Titansteele · July 2014

I would punish players by wandering into an active 100*100 fight and laugh like the evil little rat I am when I am killed because I am caught up in the mass of AOE.

It would be like Mr Bean walking through a warzone blissfully unaware of the carnage around him.

A PVE instance is the way to go but I would rather that doesn't happen. Life is full of sacrifices, I got into PVP because I wanted the Skyshards and once I was in there I gave it a try and liked it. I play PVP once or twice a week where every other day I am elsewhere in the world.

I know ZOS want you to play your way but that doesn't mean that everything can be your way, I am fully aware that this is a game but surely going out of your comfort zone is a good thing from time to time? You may enjoy it!

If your in the EU and want to join a guild that has created PVP groups purely to do these quests then let me know, you would be most welcome in our ranks if you fight for the Queen!

zdkazz · July 2014

Titansteele wrote: »

I would punish players by wandering into an active 100*100 fight and laugh like the evil little rat I am when I am killed because I am caught up in the mass of AOE.

It would be like Mr Bean walking through a warzone blissfully unaware of the carnage around him.

good point it is an effective way to steal points away form the enemies and make there life hell, another way to exploit this system.

Enodoc · July 2014

ItsMeToo wrote: »

zdkazz wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

zdkazz wrote: »

the issue with this is for people who dont care about alliance wars points, they would then make there char a citizen to give them a surprise advantage against the enemy. Alot of people dont care about the points instead they would make them selves citizen so you dont look at them twice and then they hamstring you, this system is to exploitable.

Yes I understand that this is a concern, but how would it be exploitable? If you can come up with some examples I can try to refine the idea in order to alleviate them.

(example not really how I am lol)I am a pvper, I dont care about alliance points, But I want an advantage in pvp, im in it for the kill the rush ect, so I put my char as a citizen, i then am walking around and see an enemy, he sees me and dosent attack as he dosent want the penalty applied to him, it allows me to attack first, giving me an upper hand and an advantage in that pvp encounter.

One solution might be...

If a Citizen Player attacks a player first, no matter if it's another Citizen player or a PvP player, all the damage from their own attack would apply to themselves. This would help to stop that exploit advantage.

That could work. Equally, since this is a system designed for people who don't want to PvP, then it could just not allow them to attack other players (aside from in self-defence).

Cyrdemaceb17_ESO wrote: »

I think it is possible to introduce such a system without too much exploit. So you can only be a citizen as long as you don't have any higher rank already. Higher rank removes the citizen option permanently.

Now comes the BUT: but giving players an easy way to get all the achievements in Cyrodiil negates the harder work, pvp-players had to do for getting them.

I think clearing your previous alliance rank and benefits is a reasonable trade-off for players who wish to become Citizens. This would allow anyone currently PvPing to get out of it if they wanted to, as they are essentially returned to the same state as a newly-arrived citizen.
I understand what you mean about the achievements, but that's, in my opinion, just the same difference as someone who has gained them from a fully-populated campaign versus someone who has gained them from going to one where their alliance always owns everything.

So I've been thinking about what you've been saying about not wanting penalties for killing spies, and I've come up with this:

No Penalty for killing a Citizen in the grounds of any Keep (friendly or enemy); instead, AP bonus for killing a Citizen in an enemy Keep (an obvious spy). No bonus or penalty for killing a Citizen who wanders into an area designated as a "battle" on the map (unless at a Keep, then a bonus as above).
Standard Penalty (eg 1000 Gold bounty, lose 5000 AP) for killing a Citizen within their Home Territory.
Reduced Penalty (eg 1000 Gold bounty, lose 1000 AP) for killing a Citizen within a town in their Home Territory. No AP loss if the town is enemy-controlled.
Limited Penalty (eg 500 Gold bounty, lose 1000 AP) for killing a Citizen in Enemy Territory.
Minimal Penalty (eg 500 Gold bounty, no loss of AP) for killing a Citizen in a town in Enemy Territory. AP bonus if the town is enemy-controlled.

Guards at the Milegates would warn Citizens that they are entering enemy territory and that they need to be vigilant.

zdkazz · July 2014

Enodoc wrote: »

ItsMeToo wrote: »

zdkazz wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

zdkazz wrote: »

the issue with this is for people who dont care about alliance wars points, they would then make there char a citizen to give them a surprise advantage against the enemy. Alot of people dont care about the points instead they would make them selves citizen so you dont look at them twice and then they hamstring you, this system is to exploitable.

Yes I understand that this is a concern, but how would it be exploitable? If you can come up with some examples I can try to refine the idea in order to alleviate them.

(example not really how I am lol)I am a pvper, I dont care about alliance points, But I want an advantage in pvp, im in it for the kill the rush ect, so I put my char as a citizen, i then am walking around and see an enemy, he sees me and dosent attack as he dosent want the penalty applied to him, it allows me to attack first, giving me an upper hand and an advantage in that pvp encounter.

One solution might be...

If a Citizen Player attacks a player first, no matter if it's another Citizen player or a PvP player, all the damage from their own attack would apply to themselves. This would help to stop that exploit advantage.

That could work. Equally, since this is a system designed for people who don't want to PvP, then it could just not allow them to attack other players (aside from in self-defence).

Cyrdemaceb17_ESO wrote: »

I think it is possible to introduce such a system without too much exploit. So you can only be a citizen as long as you don't have any higher rank already. Higher rank removes the citizen option permanently.

Now comes the BUT: but giving players an easy way to get all the achievements in Cyrodiil negates the harder work, pvp-players had to do for getting them.

I think clearing your previous alliance rank and benefits is a reasonable trade-off for players who wish to become Citizens. This would allow anyone currently PvPing to get out of it if they wanted to, as they are essentially returned to the same state as a newly-arrived citizen.
I understand what you mean about the achievements, but that's, in my opinion, just the same difference as someone who has gained them from a fully-populated campaign versus someone who has gained them from going to one where their alliance always owns everything.

So I've been thinking about what you've been saying about not wanting penalties for killing spies, and I've come up with this:
No Penalty for killing a Citizen in the grounds of any Keep (friendly or enemy); instead, AP bonus for killing a Citizen in an enemy Keep (an obvious spy). No bonus or penalty for killing a Citizen who wanders into an area designated as a "battle" on the map (unless at a Keep, then a bonus as above).

Standard Penalty (eg 1000 Gold bounty, lose 5000 AP) for killing a Citizen within their Home Territory.

Reduced Penalty (eg 1000 Gold bounty, lose 1000 AP) for killing a Citizen within a town in their Home Territory. No AP loss if the town is enemy-controlled.

Limited Penalty (eg 500 Gold bounty, lose 1000 AP) for killing a Citizen in Enemy Territory.

Minimal Penalty (eg 500 Gold bounty, no loss of AP) for killing a Citizen in a town in Enemy Territory. AP bonus if the town is enemy-controlled.

Guards at the Milegates would warn Citizens that they are entering enemy territory and that they need to be vigilant.

or we could use the system we have now, not complicate it and the people that want to pve can sneak to the areas, there really are very few gankers like me who like to hang out in towns and play the bandit roles, most are zerging and seiging...I love going deep behind enemy lines and educating small groups in the finer points of mace to face etiquette, but I cant be every where at once...

cracker81 · July 2014

Sharee wrote: »

No. Any player in cyrodiil has to be a legitimate target. Otherwise youll soon have 'citizens' spying and reporting on enemy troop movements.

If you really want to just pve, ask for a pve-only phase of cyrodiil where you cannot see enemy players and keeps/scrolls are not capturable.

You could have a warning come up when entering an enemy territory will be flag as a spy if you don't turn back.