I don't like the idea of being able to flood flags (which is going to start happening, and I see on more open areas like resources) with zergballs.

Say you have a team of 8-12 on the back flag of a keep. Enemy team puts two full raids on that flag and chain heals. They don't even need to kill NPCs and that flag will flip. Put up a morphed Siege Shield IV and oil pots on the ground will only do 10% of max damage -- easily healed through. AE caps prevent any real damage to the zergball from player abilities.

As long as the zerg is aggressive instead of timid (which is what gets it wiped -- trickling in instead of slamming that flag) and doesn't give two craps about their opposition, they'll roll over it. Stand on back flag, chain heals/purges, AE for 10-15 seconds -- everything in the room is dead, no matter how good the defense.

Repeat on flag in the Nave.

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

I don't like the idea of being able to flood flags (which is going to start happening, and I see on more open areas like resources) with zergballs.

Say you have a team of 8-12 on the back flag of a keep. Enemy team puts two full raids on that flag and chain heals. They don't even need to kill NPCs and that flag will flip. Put up a morphed Siege Shield IV and oil pots on the ground will only do 10% of max damage -- easily healed through. AE caps prevent any real damage to the zergball from player abilities.

As long as the zerg is aggressive instead of timid (which is what gets it wiped -- trickling in instead of slamming that flag) and doesn't give two craps about their opposition, they'll roll over it. Stand on back flag, chain heals/purges, AE for 10-15 seconds -- everything in the room is dead, no matter how good the defense.

Repeat on flag in the Nave.

This it literally how Im losing keeps these days. To add insult to injury, most of the time I am kicked out of the keep by archer gaurds after the keep has been flipped.

http://i.imgur.com/1lakaT5.png

This is AD on Dawnbreaker, and pushing with overwhelming numbers @ primetime is virtually their only card. This is basically me fighting in a room with I-cant-even-count-how-many AD while they continuously pour through a breach. Eventually they take the flag because theres only so much you can do because of AOE caps with so many people. Theyre literally unable to kill me on the point in the time it takes them to capture a keep with 50-100 people inside in the same room. But they havent much concern to do so. Stay alive, spam heals, all good. When all is said and done, I die to the NPCs after the keep is flipped - entirely.

You can stop buffing guards ZOS, it doesnt do anything really to zergs, and it only further hurts people playing in lower numbers. Let the players decide the fate of PvP, just give us a fair chance to fight.



EDIT: I just went and read the helpful hints in the picture. Looks like I should have used rune prison to even the odds. Should have participated in the battle to build more ult too to unleash devastating abilities (that are capped). Thanks Zenimax.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

I don't like the idea of being able to flood flags (which is going to start happening, and I see on more open areas like resources) with zergballs.

Say you have a team of 8-12 on the back flag of a keep. Enemy team puts two full raids on that flag and chain heals. They don't even need to kill NPCs and that flag will flip. Put up a morphed Siege Shield IV and oil pots on the ground will only do 10% of max damage -- easily healed through. AE caps prevent any real damage to the zergball from player abilities.

As long as the zerg is aggressive instead of timid (which is what gets it wiped -- trickling in instead of slamming that flag) and doesn't give two craps about their opposition, they'll roll over it. Stand on back flag, chain heals/purges, AE for 10-15 seconds -- everything in the room is dead, no matter how good the defense.

Repeat on flag in the Nave.

This it literally how Im losing keeps these days. To add insult to injury, most of the time I am kicked out of the keep by archer gaurds after the keep has been flipped.

http://i.imgur.com/1lakaT5.png

This is AD on Dawnbreaker, and pushing with overwhelming numbers @ primetime is virtually their only card. This is basically me fighting in a room with I-cant-even-count-how-many AD while they continuously pour through a breach. Eventually they take the flag because theres only so much you can do because of AOE caps with so many people. Theyre literally unable to kill me on the point in the time it takes them to capture a keep with 50-100 people inside in the same room. But they havent much concern to do so. Stay alive, spam heals, all good. When all is said and done, I die to the NPCs after the keep is flipped - entirely.

You can stop buffing guards ZOS, it doesnt do anything really to zergs, and it only further hurts people playing in lower numbers. Let the players decide the fate of PvP, just give us a fair chance to fight.



EDIT: I just went and read the helpful hints in the picture. Looks like I should have used rune prison to even the odds. Should have participated in the battle to build more ult too to unleash devastating abilities (that are capped). Thanks Zenimax.

@FENGRUSH

We lost Sejanus the same way the other day to the same AD horde. We were burning them down as fast as we could with Impulse, Steel Tornado, and other AOEs and they just rushed around us in a wave and stood on both flags.

Flipped. Guards killed us.

EDIT:

There should be punishment/consequence for bum rushing through the AE of defenders/guards like that. The whole point of a choke is the difficulty in clearing it out.

Chain pull the defenders out, range them down, siege them out with meatbags/fire ballista/oil catties. Walk oil pots into the room and dump them over as you gain control of the flag/floor area. Focus fire the defenders and guards down. All of these are legitimate tactics.

But not giving two craps about a AE carpeting a room because you have John, Tom, Harry, and 50 other dudes with you is terrible design.

So if a small group can defend against 40-50 how will anybody ever take a keep? All the defenders need to do is hide in the corners and hold block and spam impulse/oil. Any attacker walking through the door is dead. The reason people zerg the flag rooms now is that it's nearly impossible to take it otherwise.

Why shouldn't a group of 40-50 just roll over a group of 8-12?

I get that it sucks to get rolled over. I get that it sucks to be outnumbered. But when facing overwhelming numbers you are supposed to lose.

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Would no AOE cap make the zerg trains even more unbeatable? I mean.. yes with 'blink'... you can hit this amount of people... but with no cap you hit all.. all in train hits all... zerg gets even more 'unbeatable' and also would create so that one person can ruin the entire train or group with a couple of simple moves.

I am not really sure how to understand this issue.. we want to remove options where 3-5 people can blatantly kill a group of 24 people with a few effective ultimates... removing AOE caps is not the way for this.. rather it would be pro a few people ruining everything for many instead...

Nope, while yes, they would instagib anyone crossing them, people hitting them from outside their range would hit ALL of them, killing all of them.

The issue is that once you reach 50+ players, the chance for any AOE hitting that blob to cause consecutive killing hits becomes much lower.

So you have a hypothetical AOE that will kill everyone in one hit, okay. In game you need 6 people or more to create that. Anyway assume you hit a group of 60 people with it.

6 of them do die, but the remaining 54 roll over you. Each head is a lottery ticket to avoid the AOE damage.

Except in the game it's actually worse than this, because you can't create one AOE that will eliminate a player. When six of you AOE that blob 36 of the 60 players get hit by AOE. Maybe some unlucky shoul receives consecutive hits and dies, but a bunch survive having only taken one of the 6 AOE's worth of damage, distributed randomly into the blob.

Conversely if your AOE simply hit everything in it's path, they would all receive a killing blow for humping each other's legs, and be forced to spread out.

The problem with the AOE cap is that it turns that 60 players into a single, aggregated health pool that can only be damaged at random. Since you can't guarantee damage to any part of it, killing any specific part of it becomes impossibly hard.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ZOS, clipping looks bad and this style of combat isn't compelling or interesting. It wastes your block mechanic, hell it wastes 9/10ths of the available combat options.

Lowbei wrote: »

during beta, pvp was great

first month after beta, pvp was great

then zos made everyone aware that there were ae caps

players made a poll, 89% (out of thousands) voted against ae caps

seeing that zos didnt care about pvpers opinions, players formed up zergball impulse trains

2 months later, everywhere you go in cyrodiil, you run into zergballs

ZERO official response on the issue from zos shows that we can not expect a fix anytime soon as more and more zergs start using this strategy.

so how about you tell your community manager to do their job and at least communicate with us, because we are losing faith in you.

There have always been aoe caps in ESO. Not quite sure what your complaint is other than players finally figured it out.

It was never a problem in daoc because you couldn't pre-ward yourself against cc like you can here with immovable. DAoC anti-cc was reactionary purge only so you could always stop them with a stun/mez and they had to react to get out. If it was down they were screwed. If they intend to keep the cap that would be the only real change they can make to fix it. Make the anti-cc reactionary only and put a downtime on it.

Columba wrote: »

I loved Daoc, but simply because Daoc had no aoe caps doesn't mean that this is automatically the best design decision either. No aoe capped cc caused other problems in DAOC that I'd rather not see here. The unintended consequences in LOLHammer were disastrous. If the problem to solve is to give small, coordinated a fighting chance, then there are other options.

Raise the aoe cap before making a massive change by removing them. Test and learn.

DAoC had diminishing returns. The only issue with caps is people with the cookie cutter builds will always complain

Ok I ready some of these posts... and people would bang the head into the wall again and again and again... ok so remove the AOE cap... and groups that fear them lone stalker groups.. just invite a couple of extra healers... hello... problem not solved but just the zergs outhealing the smaller group that only has one while the entire small group gets standart to death among everything else... cordinated zerg group would still win... as funny as it may sound.

Besides a couple of classes would get too good to be true with removing the caps.. and people would be like nerf this or that skill... AGAIN... and please don't give me/us the I only like small scale... then maybe small scale is what one should seek once in the Cyrodiil area.

Can't just nerf the damage down.. have to think of that PvP is not the only thing in this game either... PvE is actually a part of it as well.

We don't like botting... bigger caps makes it more viable for some situations..

Alot of it here seem very much onesided.

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Ok I ready some of these posts... and people would bang the head into the wall again and again and again... ok so remove the AOE cap... and groups that fear them lone stalker groups.. just invite a couple of extra healers... hello... problem not solved but just the zergs outhealing the smaller group that only has one while the entire small group gets standart to death among everything else... cordinated zerg group would still win... as funny as it may sound.

Besides a couple of classes would get too good to be true with removing the caps.. and people would be like nerf this or that skill... AGAIN... and please don't give me/us the I only like small scale... then maybe small scale is what one should seek once in the Cyrodiil area.

Can't just nerf the damage down.. have to think of that PvP is not the only thing in this game either... PvE is actually a part of it as well.

We don't like botting... bigger caps makes it more viable for some situations..

Alot of it here seem very much onesided.

The big group might actually not be able to outheal the smaller groups if suddenly all 24 of them take damage.
Thats the problem now, the big groups can always outheal it because only 6 out of the 24 people take damage so it becomes utterly trivial to heal, especially since the healing is always given to those who need it the most.
They could do many things that would not have to affect PvE at all, just make the spells behave differently.

Coordinated zergs would probably still win yes but maybe not as completely onesided as now and just maybe smaller groups would have a chance once in a while if they caught them by surprise.

It's really simple, the defense against AOE should never, ever be to group up. It should always be to spread out.

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Galrukh wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Ok I ready some of these posts... and people would bang the head into the wall again and again and again... ok so remove the AOE cap... and groups that fear them lone stalker groups.. just invite a couple of extra healers... hello... problem not solved but just the zergs outhealing the smaller group that only has one while the entire small group gets standart to death among everything else... cordinated zerg group would still win... as funny as it may sound.

Besides a couple of classes would get too good to be true with removing the caps.. and people would be like nerf this or that skill... AGAIN... and please don't give me/us the I only like small scale... then maybe small scale is what one should seek once in the Cyrodiil area.

Can't just nerf the damage down.. have to think of that PvP is not the only thing in this game either... PvE is actually a part of it as well.

We don't like botting... bigger caps makes it more viable for some situations..

Alot of it here seem very much onesided.

The big group might actually not be able to outheal the smaller groups if suddenly all 24 of them take damage.
Thats the problem now, the big groups can always outheal it because only 6 out of the 24 people take damage so it becomes utterly trivial to heal, especially since the healing is always given to those who need it the most.
They could do many things that would not have to affect PvE at all, just make the spells behave differently.

Coordinated zergs would probably still win yes but maybe not as completely onesided as now and just maybe smaller groups would have a chance once in a while if they caught them by surprise.

It's really simple, the defense against AOE should never, ever be to group up. It should always be to spread out.

Been using rams at gates being heavy oiled and healed through easy peasy lots of times, believe that is one of the strongest aoe attacks IF not the strongest, key feature seem like if you remove the AOE caps you also remove the caps for healers, inviting an extra or two healers to just spam aoe heals when in need be healing the entire group for like alot... even as a small group you gotta get close enough to really add your aoes and chances are you are burned to death before doing any severe damage.

A couple of factors contribute to out healing oil.

1.Siege Shield(was it up? was it the morph that reduces siege damage by 90%)
2. Purge(was someone using it)
3. How many healers where healing you through it?

That being said I don't think it would matter how many healers a zerg brings without aoe caps if they get jumped. Standard, Nova, Veil, and Negate should mop them up. You can add a swarm I guess too.

Also I have a question about negate. Why does immovable make you immune to it. I think that is silly. It is an ultimate ability. Immovable shouldn't work on it, and you shouldn't be able to cc break out of it, or Eclipse for that matter Eclipse isn't an ultimate, but still). Is it that hard to walk out of the big bubble around you? It also stops you from weapon swapping which is odd.

Been using rams at gates being heavy oiled and healed through easy peasy lots of times, believe that is one of the strongest aoe attacks IF not the strongest, key feature seem like if you remove the AOE caps you also remove the caps for healers, inviting an extra or two healers to just spam aoe heals when in need be healing the entire group for like alot... even as a small group you gotta get close enough to really add your aoes and chances are you are burned to death before doing any severe damage.

[/quote]

There is no reason why removing the aoe caps would also have to happen to heals. ZOS has the power to make a distinction.

As a small group you are already getting burned to death, the difference is that without aoe caps you might have a chance to stealth up on them or catch them by surprise and actually kill some before they have a chance to react.

Galrukh wrote: »

It's really simple, the defense against AOE should never, ever be to group up. It should always be to spread out.

That't the main point, right there!

with AoE caps: the more you stack up, the less you need to worry about AoE - which is just one thing: stupid!

Well , another PvP event just died out in my guild due to this Pulsar spam zerging. Went to blues met zerg, went to yellows met zerg and after trying to pvp it all eventually just fizzled out as people left one by one.

Lets hope this gets sorted because it wont be pvp events just being left it will end up being the game. Plenty of new players starting out on Steam at the moment and some players returning to see how things are going, lets face it when they go in to cyrodiil and get steam rolled by this rubbish then they wont stay long.
Give us a chance ZOS and remove the AoE cap , if large grps get wiped by small groups then don't zerg , simple really.