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Could the Justice System break immersion?
Caroloces
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I thoroughly enjoyed the QuakeCon presentation and was inspired by all of the new content and improvements coming down the pike. The Justice System was very compelling, and at first glance, it seemed like it would improve the immersive quality of the game. Like many aspects of the presentation, it seemed like the devs have been striving to make this a true Elder Scrolls experience.
After thinking about it for awhile, I started to feel a nagging sense of concern: Are those cities like Daggerfall (which most of us treat like safe havens) going to become battlegrounds with players coming in and killing every NPC in sight? And then, other players (seeking to gain bounty rewards) start PVPing the players who have bounties on their heads? If I'm engaged with a merchant, could the merchant be killed while we're in the midst of negotiations? If I enter a city to simply do some banking, I'm not sure that I want to step into the midst of a PVP arena.
My idea of a well-functioning Justice System would be a world where the consequences of murder would be so dire (like the real world), that players would not be tempted to spam that ability for the sake of a killing joy-ride. I'm not sure what those consequences would be, but simply having a bounty of a 1,000 gold for example might not be enough of a deterrent (particuarly if your PVP skills are pretty high level).
Perhaps another idea might be one in which murder could only occur on the fringes of a city, out in the country, or in a remote village where there would be scant protection from imperial guards. If you attempted a killing within a crowded city like Daggerfall, the NPC might just be stunned, and the guards would be on you in a heartbeat, throwing you into prison for a time.
I don't know. I'm curious as to what other players think of the situation.
After thinking about it for awhile, I started to feel a nagging sense of concern: Are those cities like Daggerfall (which most of us treat like safe havens) going to become battlegrounds with players coming in and killing every NPC in sight? And then, other players (seeking to gain bounty rewards) start PVPing the players who have bounties on their heads? If I'm engaged with a merchant, could the merchant be killed while we're in the midst of negotiations? If I enter a city to simply do some banking, I'm not sure that I want to step into the midst of a PVP arena.
My idea of a well-functioning Justice System would be a world where the consequences of murder would be so dire (like the real world), that players would not be tempted to spam that ability for the sake of a killing joy-ride. I'm not sure what those consequences would be, but simply having a bounty of a 1,000 gold for example might not be enough of a deterrent (particuarly if your PVP skills are pretty high level).
Perhaps another idea might be one in which murder could only occur on the fringes of a city, out in the country, or in a remote village where there would be scant protection from imperial guards. If you attempted a killing within a crowded city like Daggerfall, the NPC might just be stunned, and the guards would be on you in a heartbeat, throwing you into prison for a time.
I don't know. I'm curious as to what other players think of the situation.
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dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭easy, the Quakecon vid was a start, what we need to help this would be more guards, a "help i'm being attack" shout to attract said guards, a motive to kill said players and a way to keep said murderers to hide somewherePLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.0 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭charles.cavanaughub17_ESO wrote: »I thoroughly enjoyed the QuakeCon presentation and was inspired by all of the new content and improvements coming down the pike. The Justice System was very compelling, and at first glance, it seemed like it would improve the immersive quality of the game. Like many aspects of the presentation, it seemed like the devs have been striving to make this a true Elder Scrolls experience.
After thinking about it for awhile, I started to feel a nagging sense of concern: Are those cities like Daggerfall (which most of us treat like safe havens) going to become battlegrounds with players coming in and killing every NPC in sight? And then, other players (seeking to gain bounty rewards) start PVPing the players who have bounties on their heads? If I'm engaged with a merchant, could the merchant be killed while we're in the midst of negotiations? If I enter a city to simply do some banking, I'm not sure that I want to step into the midst of a PVP arena.
My idea of a well-functioning Justice System would be a world where the consequences of murder would be so dire (like the real world), that players would not be tempted to spam that ability for the sake of a killing joy-ride. I'm not sure what those consequences would be, but simply having a bounty of a 1,000 gold for example might not be enough of a deterrent (particuarly if your PVP skills are pretty high level).
Perhaps another idea might be one in which murder could only occur on the fringes of a city, out in the country, or in a remote village where there would be scant protection from imperial guards. If you attempted a killing within a crowded city like Daggerfall, the NPC might just be stunned, and the guards would be on you in a heartbeat, throwing you into prison for a time.
I don't know. I'm curious as to what other players think of the situation.
I don't really get it. Except for the minor inconvenience of going to jail being removed, this is precisely how it worked in all Elder Scrolls games. Minus the PVP aspect, which I am sure will be able to be toggled or disabled once they get all of the rage feedback on that. Why does ESO need to be more realistic than every other Elder Scrolls game? I am comfortable with it getting pretty close to what we have seen in other Elder Scrolls games.Edited by timidobserver on July 19, 2014 5:04PMV16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)1 -
Aortick✭✭✭I think it would add to the Immersion. The More interaction with the World the better. Also, they could make important NPCs Protected so they can't be killed. Solves the issue some might have with Merchants or Quest Givers getting killed.0 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The guys showed a bounty of 100.000 gold or something, even the biggest grinder wont be able to afford this every day
Besides that, we don't know yet if the reputation in the city will be affected.
It could be that some mass murderer will just be kicked out of town forever if he goes too far - nobody knows this yet.
Yes there will be killings, but I do not think that it would result in ghost towns. The NPC´s will also respawn over time and right now I assume we will have more guards than killers too.0 -
Westcoast14_ESO✭✭✭Maybe at the start things may be a bit odd as player wrap themselves around the notion. But overall the Justice System should add a lot to "immersion" since players will be contributing to a live and spontaneous "drama" in the cities.3 -
Tabbycat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I think at first people will probably go around killing NPCs. But once they start getting bounties on their heads and can't moving anywhere without everyone in sight wanting to kill them... well I think that would get old pretty fast.Founder and Co-GM of The Psijic Order Guild (NA)
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timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Maybe the OP came to ESO by the MMO road as opposed to the Elder Scrolls road, which is fine. The game needs both to be successful. In that case, I have to inform you that the random slaughter of NPCs with a fairly minimal punishment is common to games in the Elder Scrolls universe.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)4 -
Demonhunter✭✭I still don't get going to prison will accomplish? do we get locked out from our accounts for 30 days , and will not be able to play ESO?3
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The_Sadist✭✭✭✭✭We don't know how the system works just yet, so there's no point speculating. Odds are specific NPCs will be made immune to death and all that jazz to prevent griefing and whatnot.
Ultimately you'll have to wait and see."Each event is preceded by Prophecy. But without the hero, there is no Event." ― Zurin Arctus, the Underking.Tragrim - How do I work this thing?
Casually stalking the forums0 -
Spottswoode✭✭✭✭✭Are we going to be able to claim the bounty on criminals? Because I would totally form raid groups to take down greefers.
Proud Player of The Elder Bank Screen Online.
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Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The_Sadist wrote: »We don't know how the system works just yet, so there's no point speculating. Odds are specific NPCs will be made immune to death and all that jazz to prevent griefing and whatnot.
Ultimately you'll have to wait and see.
Judging by the video footage, non-quest NPCs will be turned into non-aggro mobs (yellow aura instead of red aura).
I presume all quest NPCs and merchants will remain untargettable NPCs as in their current incarnation.
Maybe they will add more killable NPCs to populate the cities further.Edited by Samadhi on July 19, 2014 5:47PM"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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Amsel_McKay✭✭✭✭✭Wait until you AoE hits NPCs because you hit the wrong button at a bank... CARNAGE!! Or if your heal hits a player with "smart healing" that is attacking an NPC and you are now a NPC target...
THIS SYSTEM IS GOING TO ROCK!Edited by Amsel_McKay on July 19, 2014 5:49PM4 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Amsel_McKay wrote: »Wait until you AoE hits NPCs because you hit the wrong button at a bank... CARNAGE!! ...
That actually sounds like an excellent solution to player complaints about other players spamming AoEs in banks."If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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Amsel_McKay✭✭✭✭✭Amsel_McKay wrote: »Wait until you AoE hits NPCs because you hit the wrong button at a bank... CARNAGE!! ...
That actually sounds like an excellent solution to player complaints about other players spamming AoEs in banks.
I know so many deaths!!! Great feature I'm looking forward to.
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DenverRalphy✭✭✭✭✭
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Yeah... I've had the occasional accidental [R]Ultimate go off in banks before. =/Amsel_McKay wrote: »Wait until you AoE hits NPCs because you hit the wrong button at a bank... CARNAGE!! Or if your heal hits a player with "smart healing" that is attacking an NPC and you are now a NPC target...
THIS SYSTEM IS GOING TO ROCK!
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dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
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i know right? i have a special mug ready for all the tears of the people trying to greif then raging.Amsel_McKay wrote: »Amsel_McKay wrote: »Wait until you AoE hits NPCs because you hit the wrong button at a bank... CARNAGE!! ...
That actually sounds like an excellent solution to player complaints about other players spamming AoEs in banks.
I know so many deaths!!! Great feature I'm looking forward to.
PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.1 -
Amsel_McKay✭✭✭✭✭DenverRalphy wrote: »
Yeah... I've had the occasional accidental [R]Ultimate go off in banks before. =/Amsel_McKay wrote: »Wait until you AoE hits NPCs because you hit the wrong button at a bank... CARNAGE!! Or if your heal hits a player with "smart healing" that is attacking an NPC and you are now a NPC target...
THIS SYSTEM IS GOING TO ROCK!
Yeah and now you will be marked for PVP. You better move your Ultimate key unless you want to have a room of NPCs and VR12 bounty killers after you
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DenverRalphy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Amsel_McKay wrote: »DenverRalphy wrote: »
Yeah... I've had the occasional accidental [R]Ultimate go off in banks before. =/Amsel_McKay wrote: »Wait until you AoE hits NPCs because you hit the wrong button at a bank... CARNAGE!! Or if your heal hits a player with "smart healing" that is attacking an NPC and you are now a NPC target...
THIS SYSTEM IS GOING TO ROCK!
Yeah and now you will be marked for PVP. You better move your Ultimate key unless you want to have a room of NPCs and VR12 bounty killers after you
Well from their description in the video, at least an accidental incident won't make you KoS. It seems that it takes a bit of work until that happens. More than likely I'd just have to pay the occasional annoying bounty. =D
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Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭If they cant hit me or the NPC i use , i really dont care much about what they run around the town doing.Edited by Nox_Aeterna on July 19, 2014 6:44PM"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor0 -
Zorrashi✭✭✭✭✭Hm. While the PvP aspect does discourage active murder sprees, I just wonder how affective it will be. In fact just adding a PvP aspect is going to irritate some.
But despite the guy saying it was "encouraged" in the video, what benefit is there for killing an NPC? I didn't see any loot or monetary gain of any sort in the video...just a massive fine. (was that number for killing 5 people? Or 7?). That is fine on its own; in fact it pleases me to think that not just anyone can go around killing people for the thrill of it.
....I hope they keep it like that. I never want to see the day when everyone can kill just for the sake of it. Takes away form the value of a professional.0 -
cracker81✭✭✭I would think it add to, not take away. I would think an RP person should love it. One day I was in town square an arrow struck the merchant before I could close the deal. The blah blah crime rate has gone up in blank city.0 -
Amsel_McKay✭✭✭✭✭in fact it pleases me to think that not just anyone can go around killing people for the thrill of it.
There will be whole guilds that will clear out entire towns for fun... They will dance on the dead bodies like in WOW.
Vamps will clear out all the Warewolf people and Warewolfs will kill all the vamps...
but with all that it will add a nice world PVP element to the game...
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DogFaceInBananaPatch✭✭✭✭All I know is I will have a bounty on my head, often, being I accidentally right-click to interact with NPC's all the time.0 -
Arsenic_Touch✭✭✭✭✭
✭There's that word again. People need to stop throwing the word immersion round in the wrong context. This would actually add to the immersion because it increases your interaction with the world.☠ Is it better to out-monster the monster or to be quietly devoured? ☠
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Evergnar✭✭✭✭✭
✭It would be great if guilty players were actually put in the stocks so we could all throw rotten veggies at em. That would be most immersive.4 -
Zabus✭✭✭✭There will be essentials that can not be killed like in previous TES games, quest givers should be a given. I'm not entirely sure about any of the other NPCs.Zavus - Khajiit Nightblade EP | AR 50
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purple-magicb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I like the bounty hunter idea. It's way cool!I don't comment here often but when I do, I get [snip]0 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The_Sadist wrote: »We don't know how the system works just yet, so there's no point speculating. Odds are specific NPCs will be made immune to death and all that jazz to prevent griefing and whatnot.
Ultimately you'll have to wait and see.
Judging by the video footage, non-quest NPCs will be turned into non-aggro mobs (yellow aura instead of red aura).
I presume all quest NPCs and merchants will remain untargettable NPCs as in their current incarnation.
Maybe they will add more killable NPCs to populate the cities further.
While I see where you are coming from, I do hope that this wont be the case. To limit the "pvp" to only specific mobs, because that's what those NPCs will be, would limit the world pvp again in such a drastic way, that we end up having WOW pvp where only guards can be killed.
I think that it is important that also merchants must be killable, for a higher bounty if you like. It must matter if you kill, else its again a great feature dumped down for the "carebears".Edited by Audigy on July 19, 2014 8:37PM2 -
drkeys143✭✭✭Will be good if it is handled well, not sure best way to implement it though.
I loved DB and thieves guild in Skyrim, but I never got stopped by guards when I was in the mood, and spoiling for a fight...no, it would be when I was on a quest, at the most inconvenient time possible, I would suddenly be surrounded by guards...
LolEdited by drkeys143 on July 19, 2014 7:03PM0