The Dumbing Down. Please forward this to Bethesda.

couchkyle25_ESO · July 2014

youtube.com/watch?v=LEI4yS7sFEw

That is my response to this thread...good day.

theyancey · July 2014

Enkil wrote: »

Saw this video a few years ago... I agree 100% and have been saying the same thing myself. Morrowind was the epitome in the series (other than graphics) and I am happy to see ESO implementing some Morrowind era things like spellcrafting. I hope Bethesda also layers in Morrowind level complexity in ES VI.

I agree that ES6 could be a great step forward by be9ing a giant step backward to Morrowind. The best of the last 3 ES games with added new twists would be awesome!

That being said, I don't think that such a product would be viable in an online game. I do like what ESO seems to be becoming however: a mini ES subscription game with co-op and social play. With a heavy emphasis on the solo part it is like ZOZ being able to offer the equivalent of three ES games per year at $60 each. This makes great financial sense for them. For people like me it gives me a continual ES fix. I'll wager there will be some tie-ins between the online and offline games too. I like where we are headed.

Bhakura · July 2014

Snit wrote: »

I still load up Morrowind on every new computer I buy. Have done since it was released.

And I still haven't finished the main quest

Well ... you have to PLAY the game not just install to finish the game ...

Demogrim · July 2014

couchkyle25_ESO wrote: »

youtube.com/watch?v=LEI4yS7sFEw

That is my response to this thread...good day.

All of these are good counter points. But think about the middle ground. I do not agree with everything in OP video(the casual gamer focus). I also do not agree with every point in this video(i do indeed believe that the games are... in a sense not being 'dumbed' down. But rather 'watered' down).

I love all of the ES games. Regardless of radiant AI, different teams building different games, trying to appeal to casual gamers(or not), and all of the points made by either argument. The game series has watered down significantly, be it sense of adventure or exploration, quest markers, attribute points, and memorable gameplay. Spellcrafting = gone, specific skills(acrobatics, unarmored, hand-to-hand, etc), weapon types(spears, melee staffs, darts, etc).

More and more gets cut. New features are added like Dragon Shouts and new forms of crafting(which crafting btw is a great addition imho). They take out a lot of the things which, for many people was a primary focus.

There has to be a middle ground. Include the classic features, improve immersion(don't rely on better graphics to force immersion), put faith back into human ingenuity(or include options), but keep the new ideas coming as well. There is nothing 'wrong' with Oblivion or Skyrim... I love all of the games.

Im jus' sayin'. They could have these things.. and be better. Much better. IMHO.

Falmer · July 2014

Yep, I pretty much agree with the video. I doubt many games are ever going to capture the feel of playing some of those older ones.

This isn't just nostalgia talking either. When you figured out a puzzle in Morrowind it felt like its own reward. The days of complex puzzles in games are a thing of the distant past. I am not really sure what the point of putting puzzles in modern RPGs really is? The answer sits literally right in front of you. There is no feeling of exhilaration when you solve it. As he said, its just a speed bump to have something else to do in between killing the next guy in the next room.

I do wish he focused a bit more on the removal of things throughout the series. Magic in particular dropped off significantly with each sequel. So much so that Skyrim didn't even have spellcrafting (my personal biggest complaint), though Oblivion had already neutered it so greatly it wasn't a big loss by then.

In Morrowind, you could feel like a real mage. You crafted your own spells and you could get wildly creative with how you did it. Make a combination spell that added 200 lbs to an enemy and sap their strength effectively paralyzing them. What better weapon than gravity? Cast your 30 second levitation spell on yourself and a 10 second levitation spell that also did 1 hp of damage on an enemy. Let them chase you up into the sky... Nothing so satisfying as watching them fall when their spell duration ended. All that, of course, was just simply too complicated for their new target audience in Oblivion.

Enkil · July 2014

great post @Falmer I agree totally. Skyrim's magic was so lacking I had to make a mod just to add an unlock spell to alteration skill. I hope they take a few steps back with ES VI.

Elember · July 2014

reggielee wrote: »

I liked his video, he set out his points in what he thought was a logical fair way and I could see his point.

but.... I guess I am firmly with the casual gamer mindset and do not understand why all the hair shirt difficulty in games is something to be desired. Having quests broken because you inadvertently did some action is just silly. Having so many skills, abilities and myriad paths to build a char only leads to more confusion and everyone usually following some build of the month guide or flavor of the week set out by someone who enjoys number crunching and posts a guide. Ive seen it here, Ive seen it in Path of Exiles, Rift.... everywhere.

I just do not get why a game is more desirable if it adds to frustration, annoyance, grind, confusion. I do understand that there is a sense of achievement if you do finally get thru, but .. seriously.. why do you have to put yourself thru that pain in order to get that lift, when I can get the same amt of enjoyment with a more streamlined play that allows me to have immersion without all the nit picky detailed fluff

It is more desirable because you can fail and if you can't fail you also can not win you can only play at winning.

txfeinbergsub17_ESO · July 2014

Vahrokh wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

Video was awesome.

And right on all the line.

Now... back to cry for more VR "difficulty" nerfs!

... oh, and definitely don't forget, I MUST HAVE a vanity dog pet..... NOWWWWW!

Demogrim · July 2014

Elember wrote: »

reggielee wrote: »

I liked his video, he set out his points in what he thought was a logical fair way and I could see his point.

but.... I guess I am firmly with the casual gamer mindset and do not understand why all the hair shirt difficulty in games is something to be desired. Having quests broken because you inadvertently did some action is just silly. Having so many skills, abilities and myriad paths to build a char only leads to more confusion and everyone usually following some build of the month guide or flavor of the week set out by someone who enjoys number crunching and posts a guide. Ive seen it here, Ive seen it in Path of Exiles, Rift.... everywhere.

I just do not get why a game is more desirable if it adds to frustration, annoyance, grind, confusion. I do understand that there is a sense of achievement if you do finally get thru, but .. seriously.. why do you have to put yourself thru that pain in order to get that lift, when I can get the same amt of enjoyment with a more streamlined play that allows me to have immersion without all the nit picky detailed fluff

It is more desirable because you can fail and if you can't fail you also can not win you can only play at winning.

Exactly. There is no such thing as winning in a game you simply cannot lose. And no, reloading your last auto save doesn't count as losing. Unlike the counter argument video stated, you CAN still load an auto save in Morrowind. One of which takes place BEFORE you murdered a plot character. Which was ample reason to. Not simply getting picked-off by a Draugr Deathlord with a bow over and over. It gets frustrating, and you do use some form of skill to get past that situation... But that is as far as 'losing' goes. There are 0 consequences to that situation when you are forced to autosave to a few moments prior when you entered the ruin.

Blarg.

Rodario · July 2014

That was hard to watch. I agree with almost everything he said, it's just his voice and accent make me angry.

Demogrim · July 2014

Rodario wrote: »

That was hard to watch. I agree with almost everything he said, it's just his voice and accent make me angry.

I kind of like to think that he is Clauss from American Dad

couchkyle25_ESO · July 2014

Demogrim wrote: »

couchkyle25_ESO wrote: »

youtube.com/watch?v=LEI4yS7sFEw

That is my response to this thread...good day.

All of these are good counter points. But think about the middle ground. I do not agree with everything in OP video(the casual gamer focus). I also do not agree with every point in this video(i do indeed believe that the games are... in a sense not being 'dumbed' down. But rather 'watered' down).

I love all of the ES games. Regardless of radiant AI, different teams building different games, trying to appeal to casual gamers(or not), and all of the points made by either argument. The game series has watered down significantly, be it sense of adventure or exploration, quest markers, attribute points, and memorable gameplay. Spellcrafting = gone, specific skills(acrobatics, unarmored, hand-to-hand, etc), weapon types(spears, melee staffs, darts, etc).

More and more gets cut. New features are added like Dragon Shouts and new forms of crafting(which crafting btw is a great addition imho). They take out a lot of the things which, for many people was a primary focus.

There has to be a middle ground. Include the classic features, improve immersion(don't rely on better graphics to force immersion), put faith back into human ingenuity(or include options), but keep the new ideas coming as well. There is nothing 'wrong' with Oblivion or Skyrim... I love all of the games.

Im jus' sayin'. They could have these things.. and be better. Much better. IMHO.

Thank you for being apparently the only person willing to admit Morrowind was totally not all sunshine and rainbows. The fact is yes some things get removed, but other things get added in their place. So the games imo are simply different, not watered down. Skyrim added features Morrowind never had, the games imo simply evolve and change, they are not getting less deep.

Sotha_Sil · July 2014

I do not miss Morrowind. Now at least, I'm alive. In Morrowind, I was dead.

Raash · July 2014

Great video, think it applies to most games comming out these days really. But to be fair ESO cant really be mentioned along side any of the previous elder scrolls titles. You should see ESO related to original Elder Scrolls franchise in the same way as SWTOR is to original Star Wars films or tv-show Terminator: Sarah Connor cronicles to original movies etc. Its all just out of touch stories without any real attachment. Its all quasi worlds based on original stories. They are and should stay separeted!

Messy1 · July 2014

Very many valid points that I agree with. An online RPG should be engaging and challenging, not just a grind. ZOS has provided a rich world graphically, but it could use a little more innovation for player to player interactions and dynamic engaging content.

BBSooner · July 2014

Not my first watch, but well made none the less. Gamers today desire the pat on the back instead of the uphill challenge that leads to it. There are many examples of this in many IPs, one being that even games today praised for their difficulty (Dark Souls series) are still only a fraction of the difficulty as , say, the original Ninja Gaiden.

Complex systems with equally difficult content has become a small niche, which sadly usually gets drowned out by the shouts for easier "pats on the back".

sotonin · July 2014

Interesting. While i watched this i realized that all this stuff he described is the exact reason why i DID like skyrim. (I've played both morrowwind and oblivion and did not like either one). I tried very hard to get into them but found myself on a regular basis becoming "stuck" in that I didn't know what to do next or how to proceed. It was too massive and with no real goal to continue with. Skyrim keeps you on the path of the main story line if you so choose and the rest of the game helped with quest markers etc....

Am i a casual? I wouldn't consider myself a casual, i get into a game and keep going as long as I'm having fun. The older TES games did not bestow this fun upon me, nothing is fun with wracking your head on some *** because the game designers were lazy and weren't clear enough about where you were supposed to go and what you were supposed to do.

I have fun playing skyrim, I do not while playing the older tes games. I don't think i'm alone in this, and yes. TES needs to keep going in the skyrim direction if they want to make money.

dietlime · July 2014

Sallington wrote: »

This just solidifies my opinion of Morrowind being the greatest single game of all time.

Great video.

This is actually why I like ESO; because it brings back a bit of that depth. I just wish they would make it's exact mechanics more clear. Some things, like how spell damage increases heals from templar skills but not weapon skills- it's just too opaque.

Regardless if you think TES:V was the best in the series, you missed out.

Soulharvester · July 2014

This video is spot on...

BBSooner · July 2014

sotonin wrote: »

Am i a casual? I wouldn't consider myself a casual, i get into a game and keep going as long as I'm having fun. The older TES games did not bestow this fun upon me, nothing is fun with wracking your head on some *** because the game designers were lazy and weren't clear enough about where you were supposed to go and what you were supposed to do.

I would say that simply throwing up an omnipotent arrow regardless of the dialogue chosen for the player to meander towards is more lazy than creating multiple dialogue trees with responses and populating the journal with directions from different NPCs in town to allow the player to piece together the location. Any misunderstanding or laziness was on the players part - which is fine - but is proof of the reduction of complexity for the lowest common denominator in the hopes of sales.

Requiemslove · July 2014

Actually I am more inclined to agree with the counter-point arguments made by the counter-point videos. Most if not all of what the original video states can be answered emphatically by those. Honestly the creator of the OP just comes across as a whiny toe-rag with no definition of reality and facts. This is regardless how much I enjoyed the whole "dumbed down for effing kiddies" schtick. A great example, the OP went on about how dialogue is less after morrowind. When in actual fact most npcs tended to copy each other.

Lord_Draevan · July 2014

Requiemslove wrote: »

A great example, the OP went on about how dialogue is less after morrowind. When in actual fact most npcs tended to copy each other.

^This. In Morrowind there were more dialogue options, true... but it was copy-pasted the exact same text for every NPC except for 2-3 options about their background or quest information, the rest was dozens of lines that's exactly the same for every NPC. There's less in Oblivion and Skyrim, but it's much more unique and memorable dialogue. Quality instead of quantity.
Like I said earlier, it's a change, not inheritely good or bad, all depends on your point of view.

Raash · July 2014

sotonin wrote: »

Interesting. While i watched this i realized that all this stuff he described is the exact reason why i DID like skyrim. (I've played both morrowwind and oblivion and did not like either one). I tried very hard to get into them but found myself on a regular basis becoming "stuck" in that I didn't know what to do next or how to proceed. It was too massive and with no real goal to continue with. Skyrim keeps you on the path of the main story line if you so choose and the rest of the game helped with quest markers etc....

Am i a casual? I wouldn't consider myself a casual, i get into a game and keep going as long as I'm having fun. The older TES games did not bestow this fun upon me, nothing is fun with wracking your head on some *** because the game designers were lazy and weren't clear enough about where you were supposed to go and what you were supposed to do.

I have fun playing skyrim, I do not while playing the older tes games. I don't think i'm alone in this, and yes. TES needs to keep going in the skyrim direction if they want to make money.

I think the problem is that games more and more completely skip content that is challenging and deep in other ways then just extra hp and harder hits on mobs.
There must be a better middle way, like have main parts of the games nice and easy but with the possibility to have that extra and up to player to solve myseries etc for those who are interested in it.
Problem with that is that many people that dont want or are not interested in such stuff feels left out by the content. I wish there would be a bigger understaning between "its nice & easy"-camp and the "its to damn easy"-camp.

On the big whole the hand holding-thing have gone a bit too far as I see it.

Dayel · July 2014

For what it is worth and I am probably the only person who felt this way, Morrowind was the least fun of any of the Elder Scroll games. I could never really feel any interest in the main character and the world was uninteresting as compared to Oblivion and Skyrim. It was also the only Elder Scrolls game I never finished in spite of loading it up numerous times.

indytims_ESO · July 2014

I've loved the entire series, bought each one as they were released. I still think that the progression in quality (overall) has increased with each release, meaning Skyrim > Oblivion > Morrowind > Daggerfall > Arena. At least for me. That being said, all five of these are among my ten favorite games of all time.

ESO is a different animal, though, and comparing it to the TES games is like comparing apples to pizza. Food? Yep. But different kinds of food in a myriad of ways. The biggest difference is of course the inclusion of multi-player. Once you throw that in the mix, you -have- to make adjustments for it. Well, you have to if you want to retain a subscriber base.

Like bringing most books to the big-screen, concessions had to be made. Some people are still butthurt over this, but in time they will get over it.

As for the video - some good points, and then the 'rebuttal' video makes some good points, as well. In the end, it really boils down to what type of gamer you are, and the company's efforts to fall somewhere on the middle-ground so as to attempt to have its product appeal to as wide a market as possible.

BBSooner · July 2014

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Requiemslove wrote: »

A great example, the OP went on about how dialogue is less after morrowind. When in actual fact most npcs tended to copy each other.

^This. In Morrowind there were more dialogue options, true... but it was copy-pasted the exact same text for every NPC except for 2-3 options about their background or quest information, the rest was dozens of lines that's exactly the same for every NPC. There's less in Oblivion and Skyrim, but it's much more unique and memorable dialogue. Quality instead of quantity.

I'd venture to say most of those instances were about general knowledge that you could actually ask the populace - which in some cases actually did change when talking to different NPCs. Of course NPCs around House Telvani will all regurgitate that the prominent house in the area is House Telvani. NPCs south of Balmorra would all regurgitate thst Balmorra is to the north.

Finding specific subjects that an NPC is actually opinionated on added to the value of the conversation (imo), instead of simply being presented with the knowledge that "Random NPC I've never met knows about X subject so they're the only person I'm going to ask this unique question to".