The Dumbing Down. Please forward this to Bethesda.

Demogrim · July 2014

Please, if you have the time. Customers and Developers alike... watch and take this seriously. While I do not agree completely with everything he says. There are many excellent points that need to be taken into serious consideration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JweTAhyR4o0

Sallington · July 2014

This just solidifies my opinion of Morrowind being the greatest single game of all time.

Great video.

Blackwidow · July 2014

Video was awesome.

Vahrokh · July 2014

Blackwidow wrote: »

Video was awesome.

And right on all the line.

Now... back to cry for more VR "difficulty" nerfs!

sethman75 · July 2014

Just because you have more time than somebody else to grind mobs until your eyes bleed, doesnt mean you are better at the game.

Understand that the overwhelming majority of gamers play for enjoyment, not punishment.

If you want a challenge, play the game with no armor and two abilities.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Elencha · July 2014

Oh my goodness, for real? This man made so many excellent points regarding the actual dumbing down of the series and people want to bring up fight difficulty as if that even relates?? Really? I feel bad for people who found the previous difficulty of VR areas fun, I do, but it isn't relevant here.

I only played Skyrim for any substantial length of time before ESO, so I didn't really know how much more intricate the series used to be.The graphics of earlier titles kinda put me off before I really got into them, even though I bought them. Watching this video kinda broke my heart a little. I wish they had revived some of that intricacy for this game. Raised the intellectual bar, as it were.

Flame_of_Udûn · July 2014

Oblivion

Samadhi · July 2014

Did you know...?
... that Morrowind is the first TES game in which the player's stamina regenerates on its own?
... that Oblivion is the first TES game in which the player's magicka regenerates on its own?
...
... that Skyrim is the first TES game in which the player's health regenerates on its own?

http://uesp.net/wiki/Main_Page/Did_You_Know

YakoTaki · July 2014

If you like our game, you buy them. everything else does not matter. <<Bethesda>>

Evergnar · July 2014

Sallington wrote: »

This just solidifies my opinion of Morrowind being the greatest single game of all time.

Great video.

Agree, Morrowind felt the most like a real world especially in regards to relations. I liked having everyone hate my character when first entering the world. Then slowly you make a few friends and some allies but their are still a lot people in the world who dislike and/or distrust you. Also agree that the impact of choices was much more interesting then.

One of the first things I noticed in ESO was the lame demeanors of the characters in the world. Everybody acts so helpless and whiny and of course everybody wants your help because they are so helpless. It really kills the immersion for me. A massive war is going on, why should anyone give a hoot about my little character.

Edit:
Oh, and I still have found memories of the first time I walked into a city with my blade unsheathed, "Die scum". Imagine that in ESO

Snit · July 2014

I still load up Morrowind on every new computer I buy. Have done since it was released.

And I still haven't finished the main quest

Lord_Draevan · July 2014

Good video, but you should change the thread's title to "The Dumbing Down. Please check this out ZOS." since Bethesda Game Studios did not make ESO, Zenimax Online Studios did. Bethesda only published. Unless you're referring to the single-player series only (which would be odd as this is an ESO forum), in whichc ase disregard.

Also, Oblivion

My favorite of the series, but they're all great.

Lord_Draevan · July 2014

And while I agree with many points in this video, here's a video in response to this one you should all watch:

youtube.com/watch?v=LEI4yS7sFEw

Though the title is "Why the Elder Scrolls isn't dumbing down", the guy does agree with many of the "Dumbing Down" points, he simply presents another way of looking at the series' changes over the years. Certainly aspects of the series are being "casualised"... but nearly every point the "Dumbing Down" video raises can easily be explained by something else, or proven wrong. Not all of the changes are part of the "casual gamer conspiracy".

NadiusMaximus · July 2014

I agree with everything he said. They could have made an epic game with the morrowind system being g used.

JD2013 · July 2014

This video is old and has been bandied around forums everywhere like a tattered rag-doll. Next.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · July 2014

Morrowind was the best, Oblivion was the hardest. That is from Morrowind up, I couldn't even kill a rat in Daggerfall, so I haven't experienced that, Arena, or the side games. The controls were so clunky.

Skyrim was easy mode. It was still an excellent game, however.

Anyway, an MMO isn't ever going to be as intricate or as hard as a single player game. You are appealing to a broader audience.

Hoamaii · July 2014

While I do appreciate the intelligence of this analysis, it makes it a little too easy to forget that video games is a business as well as an art: if they don't make money they die.

I certainly wouldn't wish for TES - or the Fallout series for that matter - to gradually erase their very unique qualities, but the truth is: more casual gamers = more money = increased ability for Bethesda to develop more TES games + a legit authority to preserve their uniqueness.

If I remember correctly, only 15% of Skyrim copies were PC versions, meaning console players have become TES biggest market. Granted, PCs are more powerful, more fun and allow us to (almost) endlessly customize our games. However the truth is us PC gamers have become the dinosaurs of solo gaming - personally I'm very grateful to Bethesda to still show they care for PC gamers even though we've become a minority.

reggielee · July 2014

I liked his video, he set out his points in what he thought was a logical fair way and I could see his point.

but.... I guess I am firmly with the casual gamer mindset and do not understand why all the hair shirt difficulty in games is something to be desired. Having quests broken because you inadvertently did some action is just silly. Having so many skills, abilities and myriad paths to build a char only leads to more confusion and everyone usually following some build of the month guide or flavor of the week set out by someone who enjoys number crunching and posts a guide. Ive seen it here, Ive seen it in Path of Exiles, Rift.... everywhere.

I just do not get why a game is more desirable if it adds to frustration, annoyance, grind, confusion. I do understand that there is a sense of achievement if you do finally get thru, but .. seriously.. why do you have to put yourself thru that pain in order to get that lift, when I can get the same amt of enjoyment with a more streamlined play that allows me to have immersion without all the nit picky detailed fluff

Elencha · July 2014

Your point is a good one, @Hoamaii‌, it is a business, and money is not only the actual point of running a business to begin with, but also the means by which they maintain the financial viability to support the vision of The Elder Scrolls. However, that being the case, they could have supported the ability to make this game with as much depth as it's predecessors.
I'm not knocking the game, really, it's pretty good for what it is. But consider for a moment how many people are complaining about difficulty. I mean both sides of the debate, by the way. Do you think they would if the nature of the challenges in this game had been more in line with the nature of challenges in, say, Morrowind? The parts of this game which can be called difficult aren't difficult because they make a person think, they are difficult because it's just hard to deal X amount of damage in Y time. (Y being the amount of time it takes for Z enemy to deal enough damage to kill you.) If the "difficulty," if you will, had been intellectual difficulty to begin with, I think you'd have had neither people running to the forums to complain that it was too hard, nor players who felt it was a gimme. Where they did insert puzzles at all they made them either mind-numbingly easy by plastering the answer all over the room or hard because it was random rather than hard because you had to reason it out.
Give me decisions on how to complete quests. Not just a lame binary choice at the end which only has a limited effect. I get that the true casual crowd wouldn't like that, maybe, but I don't think MMORPGers, even casual ones, are that crowd. MMOers, from what I've seen, want a world in which to live. a real living breathing world. but they settle for "this boss has more hit points and an ultimate of his own that goes off if you don't kill him fast enough" because that's the closest anyone will give them to truly challenging content.

Elencha · July 2014

reggielee wrote: »

I liked his video, he set out his points in what he thought was a logical fair way and I could see his point.

but.... I guess I am firmly with the casual gamer mindset and do not understand why all the hair shirt difficulty in games is something to be desired. Having quests broken because you inadvertently did some action is just silly. Having so many skills, abilities and myriad paths to build a char only leads to more confusion and everyone usually following some build of the month guide or flavor of the week set out by someone who enjoys number crunching and posts a guide. Ive seen it here, Ive seen it in Path of Exiles, Rift.... everywhere.

I just do not get why a game is more desirable if it adds to frustration, annoyance, grind, confusion. I do understand that there is a sense of achievement if you do finally get thru, but .. seriously.. why do you have to put yourself thru that pain in order to get that lift, when I can get the same amt of enjoyment with a more streamlined play that allows me to have immersion without all the nit picky detailed fluff

Or... I could be wrong...

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · July 2014

reggielee wrote: »

I liked his video, he set out his points in what he thought was a logical fair way and I could see his point.

but.... I guess I am firmly with the casual gamer mindset and do not understand why all the hair shirt difficulty in games is something to be desired. Having quests broken because you inadvertently did some action is just silly. Having so many skills, abilities and myriad paths to build a char only leads to more confusion and everyone usually following some build of the month guide or flavor of the week set out by someone who enjoys number crunching and posts a guide. Ive seen it here, Ive seen it in Path of Exiles, Rift.... everywhere.

I just do not get why a game is more desirable if it adds to frustration, annoyance, grind, confusion. I do understand that there is a sense of achievement if you do finally get thru, but .. seriously.. why do you have to put yourself thru that pain in order to get that lift, when I can get the same amt of enjoyment with a more streamlined play that allows me to have immersion without all the nit picky detailed fluff

Yea we need less options. All these options confuse me. Just give me one class with three abilities.

/sigh

Lord_Draevan · July 2014

Long story short, the changes from game to game (skills, attributes, amount of dialogue options, directions/map markers, faction membership etc) are neither good nor bad, it all depends on your subjective opinion.

Tabbycat · July 2014

If you could take the most awesome things about Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim...

Enkil · July 2014

Saw this video a few years ago... I agree 100% and have been saying the same thing myself. Morrowind was the epitome in the series (other than graphics) and I am happy to see ESO implementing some Morrowind era things like spellcrafting. I hope Bethesda also layers in Morrowind level complexity in ES VI.

Butcherboy · July 2014

If you could make the game challenging but rewarding, and still encourage people to play together while simultaneously making it possible for them to play alone, you would have one part of the perfect MMO. I've played a few that came close but none that were perfect. As a crowd, people will always choose rewarding over challenging, because that is the path of least resistance. The larger the crowd, the more people who want the path of least resistance.

KariTR · July 2014

At least I am not the only person who found Oblivion to be the worse game of the brand.

Of all his points, the dumbing down of puzzles annoys me the most as it it so unnecessary in this day and age of game guides and walkthroughs. Everyone can beat a puzzle, no matter the difficulty, but some of us prefer to use our brain power in game to do so and very few games allow us to do this nowadays. Throwing in some truly complex puzzles will not harm either single or multiplayer games. It's incredibly lazy design not to allow for some.

The lack of impact (rival guilds, houses etc) runs it a close second, yet is understandably absent in a MMO that can't be saved and reloaded. But still it is the easy option. Allowing us to choose what House we could support, or to join the Veiled Inheritance rather than the default opposition our characters have in game would have added back the replayabilty that VR levels removed. But, yeah, MMO, I can understand that some of the more indepth features have to be left out in order for the game to work, so I will cut it some slack, but only some.

Demogrim · July 2014

Thank you everyone for your comments and viewpoints.

Logan9a · July 2014

Watched some of video, will watch the rest later. Entertaining and thus far, I've not found anything to disagree with - though I'm only a little way in. Just wanted to thank OP for putting this up.

Lyrro · July 2014

I've been able to solo most of the v1 content so far naked. I've literally opted to run around with an armor rating of 0 so I can avoid spending money on repairs because it takes so long to get to v2 that I would have to repair or remake my armor multiple times. I don't mind that it takes so long to level, I feel like I'm actually working for it now as opposed to the game prior to veteran content where I mostly just walked around questing to the point that it became extremely bland.

Prior to v1, I actually wore armor, I felt like I had to in a lot of places but so far I've been able to solo almost all of the v1 content (had some trouble with the guy in the basement of the tower in Crow's Wood) while completely naked (to include world "bosses") and in fact, it actually benefits me to do so because when I put my armor back on the game becomes so easy that I can't focus on it anymore and often end up watching tv more than playing ESO On top of this I save a lot of money since I no longer have to worry about armor degeneration when I'm farming for mats. I was excited about the prospect of veteran areas, I actually ground my character up to v1 with the hopes of finding the challenge that I heard so many of my guildmates talking about, but alas... I did not get to experience this challenge. The veteran areas were nerfed about a week before I hit v1.

Perhaps the issue with veteran areas wasn't so much how hard they were prior to nerfing, just going by what I've heard from guildies, so much as the fact that it was challenging enough to require assistance but you still had to deal with phasing which prevented you from finding the help you needed?

Anastasia · July 2014

Butcherboy wrote: »

If you could make the game challenging but rewarding, and still encourage people to play together while simultaneously making it possible for them to play alone, you would have one part of the perfect MMO. I've played a few that came close but none that were perfect. As a crowd, people will always choose rewarding over challenging, because that is the path of least resistance. The larger the crowd, the more people who want the path of least resistance.

Hate/love relationship with SOE.

Their premier successor to the original outstanding flagship, (NOT its sequel) was the epitome of what my perfect PvE content in an MMO should be.

Due to financial distraction the commitment on their behalf to stick with it and provide the funding necessary to get that engine running for folks with lower end machines etc- it didn't have the real chance it should have to get steam. I've been wanting ever since and continue now.

Logan9a · July 2014

Well made video, glad to have watched. Agree.