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Please readjust the insane VR content nerf
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steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭The main problem is that Zenimax reacted to the forum whining.
No they didn't. That's an absurd view of how a large multi-media conglomerate handles a $200,000,000 investment.
They did this because they thought from the information they had that they had to.
Nothing whatsoever said on this forum drives corporate behaviour.
At best it's mood music, along with the feedback from people cancelling subs that give them a clue as to what's going on.
No business bases its decisions on a bunch of forum yahoos.9 -
Kayira✭✭✭✭Hmm if that is true why do all changes are always related to the biggest threads of the forum. My point was that most things change due to the forum and there is no other way to tell the developers directly apart from the forum and get a response from Zenimax.
The average player enjoys the game and plays it and never visits the forum. So the people on here are often not a correct representation of the general sentiment of the game.
The main problem I also see with the nerf is that more people are unable to player their character/class. They will solo quite easily up to vet 5 or vet 12 and do the first dungeons.... And that is where the problem starts:
Many of them don't know their abilities and dungeons in PUG will become very hard for the average player- more whining same will happen to trials and many of these players will get kicked because they don't know their abilities and can't pull the dps. I am not saying the game should be full with elitists, far from it. I just see that players aren't prepared anymore by vet content.
Vet1-10 was a preparation for the dungeon difficulty, by nerfing it they made dungeons indirectly harder.
-> more forum whining
-> dungeons get nerfed
-> Trials get nerfed
-> No challenge
-> More people will leave.Edited by Kayira on July 19, 2014 4:26PM5 -
steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭Hmm if that is true why do all changes are always related to the biggest threads of the forum.
then you are wrong and should probably not run a business. Correlation is not causation. What goes on in forums are symptoms not causes.
Zen have subscription and play pattern information. They can see people stopping playing and where they stop playing.
They have the /feedback information and the emails people cancelling subscriptions are encouraged to submit.
The idea that shouting loudly on a forum causes a company to change the direction and nature of a product they spent 5 years developing is not credible.
That's not how the world works.
And if Craglorn gets changed it will be because of their internal usage data correlating with subscription information. It will have nothing whatsoever to do with this place.
Edited by steveb16_ESO46 on July 9, 2014 9:24AM5 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Okay, so, how is it becoming a solo game? Last I checked, you definitely cannot do Trials solo. Or any other 12+ person dungeon.The point is, as ESO becomes more and more a solo game, it appeals to social MMO players less and less.
How is making it possible to solo world, non-boss, content make the game inimical to group play?
That's like saying, to borrow a WoW thing, that WoW is a single player game because you can get through Pandaria zones solo ... even though SoO exists. And all the other raids.
I think you don't see the big picture at all.
Yes WOW has dungeons and raids, yes ESO has dungeons and raids but! NOT everyone likes to give up his or her RL to participate in that content and this you must do sooner or later if you want to raid successful.
We are talking about 2-3 days a week where you can not go out, where you can not go into the gym, meet friends, play with your kids, spend time with your wife or husband ...
The optional group content however does not require that you give up your life, that's why its so good for Casuals and older people. If this is removed then yes, the game changes from Multiplayer to Soloplayer for them.
Another aspect is, that most guilds that raid in WOW are very unsocial. Nobody cares about the other, you are removed instantly if you miss a raid or value RL more than the virtual pixels.
So yes, WOW and ESO are / will be very unsocial which is a real shame for an MMO.Edited by Audigy on July 9, 2014 11:04AM1 -
I played for 2 an half hours in the vet zones last night it was fun again and i do class my self as an elite player who always cleared the most challenging content when i had time irl in any mmo i have played,
Sure im probably not running at that high standard anymore but im not a noob and i didn't die often even when the vet content was hard i could kill even 3 mobs at v7 (nb) but it was just so so slow and boring.
I enjoyed steamrolling the content because my main beef is the time it takes to do a vet level vs craplorn im skipping dialogue so i can enjoy it on an alt later because i need variety i dont just want to be force to stay with one toon no matter what people say having played a sorc now as my alt for a while im not just going to pick a staff up with my nb and think its anything near playing a sorc in their own right.
Id be happy to have the challange back if the leveling process sped up but for now in the interim and pretty happy with the change as i am now enjoying playing these areas where before i did not3 -
Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »The main problem is that Zenimax reacted to the forum whining.
No they didn't. That's an absurd view of how a large multi-media conglomerate handles a $200,000,000 investment.
They did this because they thought from the information they had that they had to.
Nothing whatsoever said on this forum drives corporate behaviour.
At best it's mood music, along with the feedback from people cancelling subs that give them a clue as to what's going on.
No business bases its decisions on a bunch of forum yahoos.
This really depends on whether they consider the forum and the people on them as statistically significant, which in turn depends on sample size.
As some have pointed out Maths isn't my greatest strong point but I do remember doing some statistical analysis courses at collage and this is all surrounded by some complex algorithms which can determine if a given sample size can be considered statistically significant to the whole population.
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Change it back, don't cater to noobs cater to us people that want an interesting fight that will keep paying sub! I may as well go play wow and one shot everything don't go this direction change it for god sake, and get your heads together stop making a mess of things3
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fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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No web forum is ever statistically significant for one very simple reason alone: it is entirely self-selecting and as such fails the first test of being representative of players as a whole because from the evidence of the forum alone it cannot be demonstrated.steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »The main problem is that Zenimax reacted to the forum whining.
No they didn't. That's an absurd view of how a large multi-media conglomerate handles a $200,000,000 investment.
They did this because they thought from the information they had that they had to.
Nothing whatsoever said on this forum drives corporate behaviour.
At best it's mood music, along with the feedback from people cancelling subs that give them a clue as to what's going on.
No business bases its decisions on a bunch of forum yahoos.
This really depends on whether they consider the forum and the people on them as statistically significant, which in turn depends on sample size.
Yes, there are formulae you can apply to verify a sample is representative of a population but only if the sample itself can demonstrate it's a random selection and a web forum is the antihesis of that.
Edited by fromtesonlineb16_ESO on July 9, 2014 12:00PM2 -
Dayv✭✭✭✭Change it back, don't cater to noobs cater to us people that want an interesting fight that will keep paying sub! I may as well go play wow and one shot everything don't go this direction change it for god sake, and get your heads together stop making a mess of things
I hope they're sensible enough, not to pay too much attention to people who call people noobs.4 -
leandro.800ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭I agree that the nerf was needed but not by this much
Why don't they pull surveys to see what the majority want. I mean a 5-10% nerf was the only thing needed. Probably 20% on Gargoyles and Elemental things1 -
Ojustaboo✭✭✭✭✭
✭steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »The main problem is that Zenimax reacted to the forum whining.
No they didn't. That's an absurd view of how a large multi-media conglomerate handles a $200,000,000 investment.
They did this because they thought from the information they had that they had to.
Nothing whatsoever said on this forum drives corporate behaviour.
At best it's mood music, along with the feedback from people cancelling subs that give them a clue as to what's going on.
No business bases its decisions on a bunch of forum yahoos.
I half agree with you
If I was a dev with a passion for this game, I would be reading this and other ESO forums every night to se what people are complaining about.
true whatever the opinion they only represent a small amount of players, but it's also true that usually that there's many many many more times the number playing the game, thinking the same thing that don't post on forums.
So even while you are correct, I cant see how id doesn't sway devs opinions. Sure it wont sway the suits, but if the suits suggest changes, I would be very surprised if devs etc didn't take into some account what has been said in forums and reviews etc.
Don't forget the starter island change wad done based purely on player feedback (and a few reviews)
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Ojustaboo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Change it back, don't cater to noobs cater to us people that want an interesting fight that will keep paying sub! I may as well go play wow and one shot everything don't go this direction change it for god sake, and get your heads together stop making a mess of things
I hope they're sensible enough, not to pay too much attention to people who call people noobs.
As someone who wants it changed (or at least nothing else globally made easier) I 100% agree with you.
There is no need for name calling whatever your point of view and it is anything but constructive
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Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭Change it back, don't cater to noobs cater to us people that want an interesting fight that will keep paying sub! I may as well go play wow and one shot everything don't go this direction change it for god sake, and get your heads together stop making a mess of things
I hope they're sensible enough, not to pay too much attention to people who call people noobs.
Or the people who call people l33t elitists.2 -
Ojustaboo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Change it back, don't cater to noobs cater to us people that want an interesting fight that will keep paying sub! I may as well go play wow and one shot everything don't go this direction change it for god sake, and get your heads together stop making a mess of things
I hope they're sensible enough, not to pay too much attention to people who call people noobs.
Or the people who call people l33t elitists.
To be honest both sides have been as bad as each other for this, many posters holding either view has been like watching a bunch of immature kids argue.
Sadly they often seem to outnumber those of us who can discuss sensiblly
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hamon✭✭✭✭✭
✭steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »The main problem is that Zenimax reacted to the forum whining.
No they didn't. That's an absurd view of how a large multi-media conglomerate handles a $200,000,000 investment.
They did this because they thought from the information they had that they had to.
Nothing whatsoever said on this forum drives corporate behaviour.
At best it's mood music, along with the feedback from people cancelling subs that give them a clue as to what's going on.
No business bases its decisions on a bunch of forum yahoos.
This really depends on whether they consider the forum and the people on them as statistically significant, which in turn depends on sample size.
As some have pointed out Maths isn't my greatest strong point but I do remember doing some statistical analysis courses at collage and this is all surrounded by some complex algorithms which can determine if a given sample size can be considered statistically significant to the whole population.
so which is it then? you flip flop over whether the forums are a representation of the community or not depending on which side of the arguement it seems to be supporting..
if folk are pointing to a weight of support on the forums you happen to dissagree with the hilgara line is " forums are no representation of the majority"
however if folk are pointing to the forums as a representation of a viewpoint you support then suddenly it becomes a valid representation..
pathetic tbh.
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Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »The main problem is that Zenimax reacted to the forum whining.
No they didn't. That's an absurd view of how a large multi-media conglomerate handles a $200,000,000 investment.
They did this because they thought from the information they had that they had to.
Nothing whatsoever said on this forum drives corporate behaviour.
At best it's mood music, along with the feedback from people cancelling subs that give them a clue as to what's going on.
No business bases its decisions on a bunch of forum yahoos.
This really depends on whether they consider the forum and the people on them as statistically significant, which in turn depends on sample size.
As some have pointed out Maths isn't my greatest strong point but I do remember doing some statistical analysis courses at collage and this is all surrounded by some complex algorithms which can determine if a given sample size can be considered statistically significant to the whole population.
so which is it then? you flip flop over whether the forums are a representation of the community or not depending on which side of the arguement it seems to be supporting..
if folk are pointing to a weight of support on the forums you happen to dissagree with the hilgara line is " forums are no representation of the majority"
however if folk are pointing to the forums as a representation of a viewpoint you support then suddenly it becomes a valid representation..
pathetic tbh.
Firstly I did not give an opinion either way here. If you had read it correctly you I would see I said it depends on how ZoS do their evaluation. It wasn't how I see it, it was how ZoS may possibly see it
And secondly why are you commenting on everything I post with your vitriolic crap even when I am just making an observation and never even mention you? I've long ago stopped replying to you because you seem incapable of calm, reasoned debate so please do the same.Edited by Hilgara on July 9, 2014 1:18PM3 -
spinedoc✭✭✭What's the problem? Take off your weapon and/or your armor if you find it too easy. I don't understand why people complain. Personally I find it much less fun to have to replay the same EXACT content that my alt played and would rather get through it as fast as possible. If you want to take it slowly with a challenge no one is stopping you.
This is one of those weird complaints I just never understood.
Its about meeting the challenge set by the developers. Making things artificially difficult isn't the same thing at all. They set the bar and challenge people to jump it. Some of us relished that challenge. Lowering the bar maybe allows others to jump it but tying our shoe laces together and then trying to jump it will never give the same satisfaction. Personally I would like to see infinite difficulty where no one was able to beat all the content. The challenge would then be.
How far can you get.
For some of us its about beating the game, for others its about the RP element, Others just want to get to end game and get the best gear. There are many people playing this game for lots of different reasons. Its ZOS's job to give a depth of content to make as many of them happy as possible. So far they haven't but at least they are trying. Its a very difficult thing to achieve but its what makes a game earn the AAA title and retain the subs. RP'ers alone cannot keep this game alive, nor PvP'ers or end game raiders or those like myself. ZOS needs to be more specific about the changes it makes instead of blanket nerfing everything because you are always going to make someone unhappy when you do that. They need to put down the sledge hammer and pick up the scalpol
I don't disagree at all. I think if some people want a challenging path they should have it. Maybe they need some kind of difficulty slider, I'm not sure. I also like challenge though so don't mistake my post that I want VR content nerfed. It's just that slogging through so many trash encounters just en route for a fed ex quest, having that trash encounter be very difficult and mind sucking gets very very tedious very quickly. I'm an old time raider and I love intense challenges, but mainly for boss fights or key fights in a questline, not for every single trash mob in my way just on the road.
The other thing is that my hardcore raiding mentality went out the window very quickly once life became about working and raising a family, fixing the house, etc. I'd rather have quality meaningful encounters that were fairly brief so I can jump in and out. That's why for me very tough, challenging bosses are nice at the end of a questline, I can bang my head on that encounter for a short while and come out victorious, rather than spend hours just getting to the boss because the trash was so hard.
IMO when the MMO genre started we had mostly hardcore players playing, players who wanted difficulty, wanted to grind, wanted to only win when they banded together with other hardcore players. That was great, I had some great memories. But the MMO public at large isn't built that way. A MMO company needs to cater to all these different users, which is exactly what you are saying.0 -
Sihnfahl✭✭✭✭
Last I checked, you didn't spend 2 nights straight in a WoW dungeon (small group content).Yes WOW has dungeons and raids, yes ESO has dungeons and raids but! NOT everyone likes to give up his or her RL to participate in that content and this you must do sooner or later if you want to raid successful.
We are talking about 2-3 days a week where you can not go out, where you can not go into the gym, meet friends, play with your kids, spend time with your wife or husband...
And, last I checked, there was really no engrossing world content that forced grouping either. You COULD group, but you could also solo if a group wasn't available. You still couldn't solo a World Boss, but the quests themselves? Solo or group, whatever your choice.
Put another way - was the fact that you could solo SG have any impact on grouping in BRD? Or raiding in MC/BWL?
So as ZOS adds more end-game GROUP dungeons, which may take a hour or two a night at most, wherein is the harm of making world quest content more solo friendly, but still groupable, and not touching world bosses / dolmens / anomalies...
ESPECIALLY when you can LFG for quests in Craglorn and get zilch for the hours you can play, but ask for anomalies / dungeons in the same time frame and get deluged...Edited by Sihnfahl on July 9, 2014 8:24PM0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »It's Fabulous ! Friends have resubbed. Thanks Zenimax !
It is post like this i don't understand. I mean i get the idea, it is nice to have friends playing. But as even those that wanted the content nerfed would tell you, in a group of 2 VR was already easy. So for them to quit over the difficulty implies you were never playing together anyway, so... Woo people i dont play with have returned to spam my chat! Hip hip horray!
This may come as a shock to you but many people play MMO's pretty much as a single player game, but with a chat room function. They chat to their mates and guildies while killing stuff all alone, crazy right?
But... I can do that on any single player game too.. through steam or other chat service. Why need an mmo? :P
So they can once in a blue moon do a dungeon with them. If ever there was an MMO designed to get single player game players to play it, it is this one. Heck they wanted all the ES fans to play it. It actually sound like that is part of what the devs wanted.
Continuous character development, in a persistent world, with grouping options if you want them and the ability to chat with your friends. Isn't that pretty much what most RPG players have always dreamed of?
Yup
Edited by Shunravi on July 17, 2014 4:01PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
mumok✭✭✭What's the problem? Take off your weapon and/or your armor if you find it too easy. I don't understand why people complain. Personally I find it much less fun to have to replay the same EXACT content that my alt played and would rather get through it as fast as possible. If you want to take it slowly with a challenge no one is stopping you.
This is one of those weird complaints I just never understood.
Well here you go. Don't know why no one has thought of this already. If you want more difficulty take your cloths off, heck just fight with your hands. This is like a difficulty toggle switch already in game.
I'm all for the VR difficulty adjustment. It makes the game more enjoyable for more people. And that's what its about right?
This has been said before but all you need to do is look at the VR zones to see that this was the right move for ESO. They actually have people in them now.4 -
Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭
Well I'm not in high lvl vet as much as I used to but I really dont see this, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.....
This has been said before but all you need to do is look at the VR zones to see that this was the right move for ESO. They actually have people in them now.
Soon after launch the vet zones were heaving. The first wave of vets hit the zones and moved through. Then there was a lul because some people struggled. The bar was lowered and all of a sudden those people were able to do the content. In a way this was not such a bad move by ZoS. I hold the hope that they had something else planned that would keep everyone happy and that the next few updates will bring it to the game. I am quite prepared to change my position on vet difficulty if it is better for the game. But I love this game and want to keep playing it so I will hold off until I see what their next move is0 -
Some people need a lesson in basic reasoning. Correlation is not causality.
Leaving aside that "forum whining" is a totally subjective, pejorative term for "comments on the forums I don't personally agree with", the argument follow the following form:
A) People whined on the forums
VR content was nerfed
C) Therefore, Forum whining caused the VR content nerf.
This completely ignores the fact that ZOS has access to all sorts of data other than comments on the forums, and there is no reason to believe that forum comments- which are frequently don't actually explain a problem in any coherent manner anyhow - are the cause.2 -
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Same 10 people insisting they change it back. Meanwhile I saw 12 people in V10 Rift bank today. Such a thing was unheard of before the nerf. It was a ghost town. I would sit for 30 mins in that bank (It's my favorite little town) w/o seeing anyone else and that was prime time hours.
So yes I think it's unfortunate that some people hate the changes and I hope that ZoS can figure out a way to make you guys happy.
But the upper vet zones are incredibly active now. And I for one am happy to see it.Edited by Alphashado on July 16, 2014 10:14PM3 -
Loco_Mofo✭✭✭✭✭What's the problem? Take off your weapon and/or your armor if you find it too easy. I don't understand why people complain. Personally I find it much less fun to have to replay the same EXACT content that my alt played and would rather get through it as fast as possible. If you want to take it slowly with a challenge no one is stopping you.
This is one of those weird complaints I just never understood.
Well here you go. Don't know why no one has thought of this already. If you want more difficulty take your cloths off, heck just fight with your hands. This is like a difficulty toggle switch already in game.
I'm all for the VR difficulty adjustment. It makes the game more enjoyable for more people. And that's what its about right?
This has been said before but all you need to do is look at the VR zones to see that this was the right move for ESO. They actually have people in them now.
Why stop there?
How bout we play with one hand tied behind our backs? Maybe we could play blind folded? I know, lets play using our feet!
Anyone else have any ridiculous suggestions?6 -
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You could stop being insulting and patronizing. How is that for a ridiculous suggestion? This topic has just gotten boring.0 -
Metronomicon✭✭
The amount of envy in this post is comparable to the density of a supernova right before it implodes."These guys" like to use more than 2 braincells while having fun.That's all there is to it.These guys are so proud of themselves for being able to kills npcs in their naked. Npcs are so challenge enough that they think they are great skilled gamers... and now they are mad because everyone will get npc slayers titles. Someone is even gunna make a video of it!! It will be named "Elder Scrolls Online skilled Dragonknight 1vs3 Solo PvE"
Edited by Metronomicon on July 16, 2014 11:37PM3 -
Farrar✭Being able to use level one skills I have just put a spare point in to mow down vet 5 and vet 6 says its all!!!
Vet content is now faceroll warcraft nonsense, I can barely be bothered to spend anytime in game, its just BORING!
Why they just didn't give the game six months to mature, fix existing bugs and have some patience to let THEIR game develop is beyond me.
I adore the game, it looks great, it plays pretty well, but one button mashing mobs just don't do it for me.
Its all such a shame, I would have kept at ESO for years and years, but I need a game that is a challenge not kiddie pew pew pew!Edited by Farrar on July 16, 2014 11:41PM6 -
poodlemasterb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I am not pleased. This is my first MMO and I have fielded a whole field of fighters just to learn how to work the MMO combat properly. I have had some success, I can work a sorc, both vamped and unvamped.
I can easily take 3 opponents well above, 4 to 6, my level with my vampire witch. That took quite a while to get right and I had hoped my effort would make a difference when I got to the big leagues. I am moving very slowly on purpose. Really to maximize my enjoyment and I have crafters, fighters and even one mule.
My mid level fighters are becoming very rewarding just as they nerf the content. MY vampire DK cruised the Abner Tharn extraction about 10 days ago. I am getting almost good with him, but I don't know if I was good or if it was just nerfed. Did Dothia with a crafter the other day. Much easier. I was expecting a fight, had my cook make food, buffed his armor, my enchanter even got off his ass for the occasion. What a colossal waste of effort.3 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭Alphashado wrote: »Same 10 people insisting they change it back. Meanwhile I saw 12 people in V10 Rift bank today. Such a thing was unheard of before the nerf. It was a ghost town. I would sit for 30 mins in that bank (It's my favorite little town) w/o seeing anyone else and that was prime time hours.
So yes I think it's unfortunate that some people hate the changes and I hope that ZoS can figure out a way to make you guys happy.
But the upper vet zones are incredibly active now. And I for one am happy to see it.
Whether or not there are more player bodies meandering around has zero to do with whether or not there is more grouping occurring, which is what the Vet content was DESIGNED FOR. There is good justification for having some space/content provide good impetus for players to group up with some amount of regularity on their way to endgame. And not just a few dungeons or delves here and there.
If soloing in and around that content and 'seeing' more players running around near you or passing you or crafting in town makes you enjoy the content more, I have no problem with that.
However its important to note that whether the zones were 'empty' for a time period before this nerf, or whether they are now teeming with bodies --- neither situation is occurring or has occurred as a result of ZOS doing something to ENCOURAGE MORE GROUPING. They did not raise the level of group loot, provide interesting new clues for groups to head out after in pursuit of another fresh quest, they did not add more of a bonus to the e x p earned for grouping etc.
They nerfed a large swath of area which now allows a portion of our players to more easily fight the mobs they must face there SOLO. That is a 'taking away', a dilution to content, not something that respectfully addresses solo'rs desires for more solid, reasonably challenging solo content.
The consequences of nerfing Vet+ 1-10 is being felt further along in endgame. There are/have been and will continue to be posts and ingame chat comments about not being able to find a group. Unfortunately not everyone is in a guild. In many of mmo's there is a good percentage of the player population that in fact never guild up. They still deserve a reasonable chance to play/compete/participate in endgame though.
The lack of necessity or even "encouragement" for grouping in Vet content which COULD have been provided now means the way players handle themselves as they begin facing endgame will be, well, lacking in all cases except for experienced MMO PvE players. Then there is the issue of how much farther soloability will be demanded to proceed.
I'd not look at a player who I know has solo'd allll the way from level 1 to Vet+ level 10 and think they 'ought' to know what they are doing and be equipped and ready to dance upon hitting endgame. But that is because I know they should have been accorded the respect of having quality grouping content which would help shape and prep them for TESO endgame. *Shrugs,![:\](https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
I guess the bone was big enough.
Edited by Anastasia on July 17, 2014 12:17AM1 -
flintstone✭✭✭liquid_wolf wrote: »I am VR 2 and finishing up Coldharbor. I imagine I'll be at VR3 by the time i hit the first VR area.
I'll decide if it is too hard or easy sometime in the next week or so.
Why would it be hard for you?....you are over leveled as is?.......most people aren't.
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