DISCLAIMER: HEAVILY EDITED FOR EASIER SKIMMING AND LESS DRUDGERY. BUT PLEASE, GIVE IT A SKIM, AT LEAST, FROM ABOUT HALFWAY DOWN, TO THE END!

Omnevolus wrote: »

Reading comprehension is something that should have a higher priority in schools everywhere in the world...

Why would I say such a thing? Because so few people seem to have an acceptable level of it.

Here's what I mean (From July 8 The Road Ahead, what the comments above were motivated and inspired by........):

"•Store updates: anyone in your alliance can browse your guild store in Cyrodiil if your guild owns a keep.

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Ok here are some scenarios for your Lady/Lordship.

X is in a smallish guild with 60 people, who don't use their store for big profits.

Y is in a crafter's guild that posts things low cost purely for crafting trading.

Z is in four trading guilds, which one is chosen?

I'm not sure what your serfship is trying to say. But I can say that I said nothing about supporting this part of the system, I talked about why ZOS chose not to use a global AH, and attempted to clarify the meaning of the passage for all those who obviously misinterpreted it. I agree that smaller guilds with less resources are going to be disadvantaged. But the part above isn't related to the remarks you've made. You may have missed the point.

I bolded certain words to help everyone better understand what ZOS is trying to say, because many posts in this thread are making comments that show a misunderstanding.

What this part (and the bit beneath that you left out) of the "Road Ahead" article is saying, and what I was trying to point out, is you, the player, DO NOT HAVE TO BE IN A GUILD TO BUY FROM THESE GUILD STORES. Nothing in the entire article says so. All it means, is that, say, an Aldmeri Dominion player will only be able to shop from guilds that are Aldmeri Dominion. A GUILD-LESS PLAYER CAN BUY FROM ANY OF THOSE GUILD'S STORES AS LONG AS THE GUILD SHARES THE SAME ALLIANCE AS THE GUILD-LESS PLAYER. That's it. It suggests nothing else. Thus, reading comprehension. Apparently that goes for you, too.

(Disclaimer: I apologize for the bolded caps, just trying to make the statement more visible to those that skim/scroll by who might still have a false impression. There must be some, because posts that show a different impression are still popping up).

Omnevolus wrote: »

I propose that comments should be more thoroughly thought-out before posting (that goes for the entire forums). Or at least reflect a higher level of attention to detail and nuances of meaning.

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Thank you for this thoroughly thought-out comment that reflects a higher level of attention to detail and nuances of meaning than the rest of the forums.

You're quite welcome. I'll be here all week.

Seriously though, let's just cut to the chase. You obviously don't like me, either because I had the appalling temerity to have a different opinion than yours, or the way I write offends you, because you find it arrogant and pretentious. I'm thinking both.

You also don't seem to like the term "reading comprehension" aimed near you, but isn't that what's going on quite a bit in this thread (see below)? Is there another term that is more polite? It is what it is.
But yeah, I admit the "all over the world" part, and the "light bulb" part, were inspired by a little impatience, and so were poor choices.

Omnevolus wrote: »

Or maybe the pervasively pesky penchant of people to instinctively abhor that with which they are unfamiliar is the ignoble culprit.

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Sorry did you use Google translate to arrive at this sentence?

A translator does not conjure up sentences out of thin air for you, or digital space, or whatever. It would have had to be the same general sentence in the first place, regardless of language. But, the grammar is good, and it is logically linear by accepted standards, even if the verbage poorly impersonates an archaic style.

It appears as if you don't like alliteration. Poor alliteration, oft the hapless victim of semantic prejudice, and constantly abused.

Seriously, though, writing is tedious, is it not? So I tend to have fun when I do it by playing with words and whimsy, which makes it more fun to write for me, and I usually hope it makes it more fun for others to read. But apparently your sense of humor does not accommodate mine. So sorry.

Omnevolus wrote: »

So here's another chance to turn the light-bulb on:

ZOS has said (paraphrased): they do not want a "normal" global auction house system because it allows players to avoid challenging or unique or even important content, or otherwise legitimately earning hard-to-achieve, rare, or special items, simply by waiting for them to show up on the global auction house.

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

So such items can never turn up in guild stores or in zone trade now? This is a completely flawed argument. Also what happened to play how you want to?

Are you asking me, or ZOS? Because it shows right there, above, that I just paraphrased ZOS's reasoning behind the decision. Yet you ask me, and expect me to have the answer to the reasoning behind their "flawed" argument, as if I have a "ZOS employee and logician" hat on?

But, I did attempt to answer that anyway, in the very next parapraph, which (I'm almost reluctant to expose your error, lest you be further incensed) ...you... actually... quoted... next.... But, I admit, my explanatory paragraph did assume some intuition was a given, but not all that much. Guess that's my bad again. But, let's just head on down to the next quote, since this one, and that one, have the same answer, lol.

Omnevolus wrote: »

Well, a global auction house greatly increases the chances of these types of items showing up, in bulk, at increasingly low prices. Since they would also be readily accessible to virtually any- and everyone, the AH would effectively render the content, intended challenge, unique experience, careful design, and/or special nature of acquiring such desirable items moot, much faster and to a much greater degree, while also promoting the exponential acceleration of adopting lazy and exploitative play-styles, which cheapens the experience for players who actually earn these types of items and equipment.

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

This certainly was not the case in LOTRO. If items were as rare as you mention then they certainly did not show up in bulk and certainly not at low cost. The only things that turn up in bulk and at low cost are common items.

There is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from selling or buying rare or hard to achieve items now and this does not lessen or cheapen the game experience.

I never speculated on the degree of rarity of any item. I merely said "rare" and only as one category of item, out of several that I proposed.
Nor did I suggest that no one sells or buys rare or hard to achieve items, currently. Your irritation with me must be affecting your imagination.

But here, the reasoning behind this argument (and the quote above) is two-fold. First, is something an astute fellow brought up in another reply: the megaserver. The idea of guild stores themselves is the second factor. But I'll explain one at a time.

As I understand it (but I could be wrong, which would void my whole argument), all players are, essentially, on one server, unlike any other MMO. Instead, each player is queued into what is called a "phase." We can picture the server as having many phases stacked on top of one another, like horizontal stripes, each being a copy of the entire game/game world, but all contained within that single server. Like a layer cake, but we're all in the same giant cake. (Not like multi-server MMO's, which is like a bunch of small cakes on the same counter-top that will never join together in any way).
Each time someone logs in, they are queued into one of these phases, and any given log-in can put you into a different phase than the one you were in before. You can log in, and out, repeatedly and be put into a different phase than the one you just logged-out of.

What this means:

Instead of doing business in a global (server-wide) AH of, say, 5000 competitors (the folks who have made a permanent home on your server [separate cake]), you'd be competing against a market of, say, 500,000 competitors (because all players on the megaserver can, and will, travel through all the phases because of the random-ish nature of assigning players to different phases, per log-in).

You might say though, that: technically, you're still only playing with 5000 per phase at any given time, and so you're only competing in a market of 5000, not the whole 500,000, really. Omne, you're dumb!

Well, not necessarily. Because (again, I suppose I could be wrong) a global auction house would be sticking right through the center of the cake, from top to bottom, through each layer simultaneously, like one giant toothpick. Whole, solid, entire. Any player on any phase would be dropping their goods into the same container, essentially un-phased, so you'd be competing against every single ESO player in the world, simultaneously. Not just those confined to your server, as other games do, which would be exponentially less.

Unless, they move items through phases too, then any given item would only be available to the smaller number of people at any given time. But that doesn't seem very likely, and by what conditions and how many operations, would these many millions of items be constantly managed? I suppose it's possible, but then guild stores wouldn't make sense, or be necessary.

But if it's as I say, which is likely, then suddenly guild stores and ZOS's reasoning behind them, as I stated above, make sense if that's their goal.

The only thing that ZOS can use to keep players from having access to all those millions of items at once, is time.

Which also suddenly makes the lack of search functionality make sense, as well. That is one of the top complaints about the guild store system. Players have to take time out to travel to a single guild store, in Cyrodiil or otherwise, much less several, just to get access to a small pool of up to 500 sellers, max. This is a primary reason dissenters want a global auction house, so it is indeed working as a deterrent.

The lack of guild store search functionality has one result, (which is also a prime complaint and deterrent, and reason for dissenters to want an AH), it makes shopping in ESO take even longer because we're forced to search manually, page by page.

At least with the new system, we can now shop at other guild stores a little more easily, but it still retains the deterring factor of time, to achieve ZOS's goal. This move is ZOS giving in a little, meeting us halfway.

And just throwing this out there: people sell in zone/world with WTB/WTS even in games with a global AH. Nothing ZOS can do about that.

Finally, what guild stores also do because of the megaserver environment which helps stabilize the economy, is make it harder to find those rarer items in a store, because of course they're going to be sold to some degree anyway, but you have to search who-knows-how-many guild stores to find something specific, which takes far too much time, so there is a much smaller chance of lots of players finding and obtaining them on the market, especially with limited search functionality added on to that.

As well, the system prevents extreme under-cutting, because a person in one guild's store only has to under-cut up to 500 other people, most of whom under-cut the person before them, instead of 500,000 doing the same - so it is very effective at protecting prices from extreme deflation and thus crippling the game economy. (And it's extremely unlikely that a person will/can take the time to search every single guild store in the game to under-cut them all; so much so that even if one or a handful did, it's only going to be a very small number of people who will actually do it, which is a minimal-to-insignificant impact. But hey, no system is perfect).

Because crux isn't that rare or hard-to-achieve items get sold at all that is the problem, it is this situation multiplying, or happening in great quantities, which is what a global AH would cause, and what would allow a much greater number of players to simply buy them, instead of earn them. And it's simply ZOS's wish that we earn them.


So, they've done all they can to ensure as many players as possible have to do just that. We may not like it, but it's factual reasoning all the same. You just don't agree that such a principle is more desirable to the player, but the system achieves exactly what they want it to. It works, to that aim. It is not stupid. In fact, it is reasonably clever.

P.S. Note:
(KIOSKS WILL BE IN CITIES IN ACROSS TAMRIEL. THIS MEANS PVE ZONES ALSO SO PLAYERS DO NOT HAVE TO GO TO CYRODIIL TO SHOP FROM A PARTICULAR GUILD UNLESS THAT GUILD DID NOT BUY A MERCHANT THAT WEEK. THEN THAT GUILD CAN ONLY SELL TO NON-MEMBERS IN CYRODIIL. The article says that "merchants will act as a portal to their guild's store" NOT "be" a portal. The merchant is that guild's store representative for that week outside of Cyrodiil. A reward for owning a keep, and encourage pvp, I suppose).
Sorry for the bolded caps again, same reason as in the disclaimer waaaaaay above.

Omnevolus wrote: »

In other words, it is done on principle, something regrettably and increasingly neglected these days; the tragic victim of the seemingly inexorable smothering forced upon it by the disreputably mindless pursuit of immediate gratification.

And despite the way many of you clearly feel, it's also done for your benefit: to promote and support the enjoyment, sense of accomplishment, and right-to-pride that legitimately earning prized items should provide to you, the honored player.

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

In other words this hyperbolic vociferation is another example of the vacuous assumptions that imply that the world will fall on our heads if we have a user-friendly, inclusive AH.

Meanwhile the trading sham we have is exasperated with yet more complicated and disparate trading systems.

I'm pleased that my pompous pontifications at least got you thinking, so I made sure this one was ponderously prodigious, for your hopefully pleasant ponderings.

But, I think we disagree largely because it's not what you're used to (hey, I balked at first, too, until I grasped why, then I really couldn't hold it against them), and maybe you didn't have a solid grasp of all the principles.

And while this may not make you stop disliking me because I disagree (you're a little harsh to several other people who have a different opinion than yours in this thread too), hopefully it at least makes the whole issue a little clearer for you.

-

tuckerpb2 wrote: »

the problem with the d3 ah was that it was set up to use real money to buy the items. if a global ah is bad then why does almost every mmo do it?

Global Ah simply will not work, unless the entire game population is pretty low.
No other MMO has the mega server system, the few games that have an AH system that spans multiple servers have terrible economies. Too many people say "I want! I want! I want!" with out considering any actual facts or consequences. Instant gratification AH system would lead to severe problems that many of you who are asking for such a system would then come back and complain about.

Is the current system working? Again I say no, but a global AH is NOT a viable solution.

Kraven wrote: »

Rallick71 wrote: »

There needs to be a one stop place to shop. Not this stupid Guild Auction setups.

Please for the love of all that is good in MMO's work towards a single place to for buying/selling!!!

Short sighted. Many people will look shallowly at the system and cry out for a global AH, after all they're familiar with them from...older games. However, and this is the very important part most people miss, ESO is not separated by server.

Has anyone ever said GW2 has the best AH system or market? No, because GW2 put the AH on a diff server and every single server accessed the exact same AH. It destroys the economy.

On the surface sure a global AH is just more convenient and easier to access, however it's not worth the ruination of the economy as a whole.

Now does the trade guild system work? No, it doesn't. Not sure who expected it to but many of us from very early on knew it would just end up with zone chat being over run with WTS/WTB.

Could guild kiosks work? Yes, but there are a few problems.
1. Guild stores themselves cost money to use making them yet another money sink.
2. Guild kiosks are slated to be yet another money sink since they have to be bid on.
3. Limiting the number of guilds able to use those kiosks does mean the rest of the population will still result to chat channel selling, with the new ability to buy up resources from those kiosks relatively cheap then reselling high or simply undercut the kiosks.

What I propose instead is simply a return to an older system. Create a zone be a pocket of oblivion or w/e that allows each guild to have a merchant representative for a flat rate. No need for bidding. If you want to shop you go to this mall and browse the merchants. It allows the zone to be a one stop shop for the alliance it is aligned to, with out the overly used and abused single AH UI. People will still complain that it is not instant gratification but I think it is a decent compromise.

tuckerpb2 wrote: »

the pve one. your guild has to win a secret bid. which means unless your guild is able to make that money back you guild will not break even. so all i have to do is goto there shop. check there prices and then stand next to there shop and spam chat with lower prices.

I have to say that I am as sceptical as you about this.

However, it could work out that due to what you say, people don't want to bid too much to win these places, hence the prices could be kept very low. But I doubt it very much, read on.

Personally I think it will kill the need for joining a trade only guild as anyone wanting to buy can just browse various shops looking for the lowest prices. Those if us that just use trading guilds to sell, well we are out of luck.

I prefer these smaller shops to a big AH but I suspect the same few guilds will be running the shops, I can even see a certain type of player/guild deliberately wasting money just so that they get the shops out of spite to stop others getting them, not caring if they sell anything or not.