And so it begins...

EvilEmpire · July 2014

Artemiisia wrote: »

what I dont understand though, this cant be a surprise to anyone, in every mmo if you dont have the necessary specs and requirements for the bosses. of course you shouldnt be in the raid, until you have.

Comments/attitudes like that are a big part of the problem. Just because you seem to think the necessary specs and requirements meet your FoTM sorc, that seems to mean that you think it's okay for them to promote that kind of behavior?

Artemiisia · July 2014

12 people to form a raid mate, all need to bring something to the table, and if you havent read about my comment on boss tactics u might wanna go back and read them.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · July 2014

Nah people have been whining since the game began.

Hey our VR content is to hard! Elitist players you have dungeons and trials go do those!! No,no, what i really meant is just go away, and certainly don't do the one part of the game that almost seems like it was directly designed for you!

Fleymark · July 2014

Scarletblaze wrote: »

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

Um....hello?!
Trial achievements are a way to prove your worthy of the 'Cool Kids Club', duh! Why else would they be implemented in the game?
LOL

There's nothing wrong with having hard content that requires optimal builds, gear, or player talent. For a lot of people, that's the whole point of playing MMOs...Overcoming challenges that one cannot do alone or easily.

The problem is that they added this content with the full knowledge that their game is wildly out of balance. Which they intend to fix at a sloth's pace (they outright say this in every monthly Road Ahead message) while continuing to add more. Hard content means that builds that were previously under balanced are now outright broken. You need optimal dps for these encounters, not just dps. And when only one basic build can provide optimal dps, logically, the other builds are inelligible for that content, unfortunately.

You can't blame people for wanting to actually complete what they are setting out to do. Blame zenimax for not making balance a higher priority.

Huckdabuck · July 2014

Audigy wrote: »

Huckdabuck wrote: »

Shouldn't the title be

"And so it continues..."

I mean this is absolutely nothing new nor is it really a surprise to see that sort of LFM statement in zone chat.

Well its more common since Monday at least. If its a coincidence or I just logged on to the wrong time I don't know, but these type of things happen a lot lately.

VR 12 is now a worthless achievement, so people look for others and those are clear achievements, dps meters or specs. That said, some encounters are easier with a specific type of group and the trust into "non optimal" specs seems to be very low as you don't know if that guy is really an exotic creature or just a result of Monday.

I would try the dungeon finder, you can still get such elitist´s there, but the chance is high that they are in a minority.

Every trial run I've done since they were released have pretty much been this way and people have been posting QQ threads on the forums about this every since then. So I'd say it's been well over 2 weeks of this. Luckily I rolled a Sorc Resto/Destro 7 light armor from day 1 of early access, so I never had to worry about changing my play style. VR really isn't an achievement....it's just the highest you can go and allows you to wear the best gear and parse better numbers due to higher rated gear....don't really know where you were headed with that part of your comment.

spinedoc · July 2014

This is a consequence of the current MMO paradigm where you have to "grind" dungeons to get gear. TESO isn't as bad, but only because there isn't that much high level content yet. When you are collecting gear by grinding dungeons they get boring quickly, and you just want a group to go through them quickly. It's not fun anymore to wipe a lot and "learn" the encounter.

I'm not saying I condone it. But I will admit that I was the same way when I raided, I feel bad about it today but I do feel it was justified in terms of the MMO paradigm that is set in front of us. It's great to make the newer player feel good about themselves and let it be ok to wipe and take a long time to do a dungeon, but is it also ok to let the player who has done the dungeon 30 times have to relearn it with each new player they pick up?

I don't know the answer, but it seems like the players are never going to change so maybe the MMO paradigm of griding dungeons for gear needs to.

Audigy · July 2014

Huckdabuck wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Huckdabuck wrote: »

Shouldn't the title be

"And so it continues..."

I mean this is absolutely nothing new nor is it really a surprise to see that sort of LFM statement in zone chat.

Well its more common since Monday at least. If its a coincidence or I just logged on to the wrong time I don't know, but these type of things happen a lot lately.

VR 12 is now a worthless achievement, so people look for others and those are clear achievements, dps meters or specs. That said, some encounters are easier with a specific type of group and the trust into "non optimal" specs seems to be very low as you don't know if that guy is really an exotic creature or just a result of Monday.

I would try the dungeon finder, you can still get such elitist´s there, but the chance is high that they are in a minority.

Every trial run I've done since they were released have pretty much been this way and people have been posting QQ threads on the forums about this every since then. So I'd say it's been well over 2 weeks of this. Luckily I rolled a Sorc Resto/Destro 7 light armor from day 1 of early access, so I never had to worry about changing my play style. VR really isn't an achievement....it's just the highest you can go and allows you to wear the best gear and parse better numbers due to higher rated gear....don't really know where you were headed with that part of your comment.

I saw people posting here that they don't take new VR 12 players into their trials, as they know they "suck" due the nerf.

That's why I was under the assumption, that they now call out for the clear achievements as a replacement

That's what I tried to get across ^^

I like to compare this to WOW. Nobody asked you during Vanilla about your DPS or if you were specced xy or had done content before. But since WOTLK when it all got easier it was a natural behavior by raid leaders.

It also was natural to know what CC is in Vanilla, you didn't had to explain tactics in a dungeon, today running a dungeon in WOW without a tactic sessions is horrible. Not because its hard, but because people learn nothing anymore on their way to max level.

Maybe its the same now at ESO and raid leaders try to select their members based on clear achievements now too.

$infraction2008b16_ESO$ · July 2014

Fleymark wrote: »

The problem is that they added this content with the full knowledge that their game is wildly out of balance. Which they intend to fix at a sloth's pace (they outright say this in every monthly Road Ahead message) while continuing to add more. Hard content means that builds that were previously under balanced are now outright broken. You need optimal dps for these encounters, not just dps. And when only one basic build can provide optimal dps, logically, the other builds are inelligible for that content, unfortunately.

You can't blame people for wanting to actually complete what they are setting out to do. Blame zenimax for not making balance a higher priority.

Judging from the latest updates and patch notes from the PTS they're not even working on it, they keep beating around the bush avoiding any changes that might be significant to class/build balance. On one hand we see the community reps say stuff like "we hear ya..." only to find in the next patch all the devs really bothered to do is stuff like add visual effects on abilities and some other stuff that doesn't really affect balance at all.

What we got at the moment is a couple of niche builds based between two classes, two very similar weapon types and one armor type doing up to double or even triple the damage output than every other possible build in the game. On top of that we got dps requirements in trials that are far too high for anyone not using those niche builds.

I mean that's a gap any other MMO developer would of rushed to close, why are zenimax even biding their time on it? Don't they see how much of a joke that is that the majority of builds in the game are unviable for the content?

magickats242cub18_ESO · July 2014

I have seen this in just about every MMO I've played. Sadly, the only thing you can do is just stick with your friends/guild, and enjoy the game with the people you know.

iaintoff · July 2014

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

It's pve mate what do you expect, that type of environment attracts the nit picky, Georgey podgey, pudding pie types, good job in eso pvp is where it's at.

Aeratus · July 2014

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

Nothing new, and not even new since Craglorn.

Even before Craglorn, some players refused to group with stamina dps users for dungeons like vet spindleclutch. Ever seen a high level rank/healer join a vet dungeon group through the group search tool and instantly leave after seeing 2 NB dps?

Tamanous · July 2014

Update 3 is the start of stamina improvements. Softcap for damage and armor is raised for stamina and armor sets. Magicka softcap nerfed.

Start testing builds and in the not too long future these morons wanting only easy mode and with complete disregard for actually helping players will finally be able to be told "**** off and learn to play the game as it's intended."

Arsenic_Touch · July 2014

Always amusing when people whine about this sort of behavior and then insult them. What's the problem? do you feel inferior because groups that are regularly clearing the content won't carry you through it? or are you so selfish that you think other people should cater to your style of play? You don't have to join that group, you don't even have to read that text.

The game is imbalanced and it's clear that stamina builds are a hindrance in trials. Don't like it? get a different build or cause enough of a stir on the forums for the company to not ignore it and actually fix things but don't sit here and think that you're entitled to do this content if you're not going to take the time to do it right.

If you think you can do so well with your non meta build, find a group of like minded people and see how long it takes you to clear the content.

$infraction2008b16_ESO$ · July 2014

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

Always amusing when people whine about this sort of behavior and then insult them. What's the problem? do you feel inferior because groups that are regularly clearing the content won't carry you through it? or are you so selfish that you think other people should cater to your style of play? You don't have to join that group, you don't even have to read that text.

The game is imbalanced and it's clear that stamina builds are a hindrance in trials. Don't like it? get a different build or cause enough of a stir on the forums for the company to not ignore it and actually fix things but don't sit here and think that you're entitled to do this content if you're not going to take the time to do it right.

If you think you can do so well with your non meta build, find a group of like minded people and see how long it takes you to clear the content.

Before you assume I am actually currently a LA/staff user although not by choice but this isn't about me. This is about having a game where no matter what class you pick at character creation, what weapon you choose to level or what armor you decide to put on you should be at least be able to compete on some level.

Obviously every MMO is going to have cookie cutter builds and things that work slightly better than others to be desired by raid groups but what we've got at the moment is too far... far... beyond that, we got content balanced around a couple of overpowered builds while everything else including half the classes, 2 out of 3 armor types and 4 out of 6 weapon types are left in the dirt and unable to compete at high level.

To me that's not just unbalanced, that's downright broken beyond comprehension and if anyone disagrees with that or would rather things stay the way they are then they are the selfish ones who want other players to cater for their play style.

This is quite simply a one/two build game at the moment, only fools would want to continue playing an MMO with such a lack of choice if you wish to stay viable.

Laura · July 2014

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

Always amusing when people whine about this sort of behavior and then insult them. What's the problem? do you feel inferior because groups that are regularly clearing the content won't carry you through it? or are you so selfish that you think other people should cater to your style of play? You don't have to join that group, you don't even have to read that text.

The game is imbalanced and it's clear that stamina builds are a hindrance in trials. Don't like it? get a different build or cause enough of a stir on the forums for the company to not ignore it and actually fix things but don't sit here and think that you're entitled to do this content if you're not going to take the time to do it right.

If you think you can do so well with your non meta build, find a group of like minded people and see how long it takes you to clear the content.

cheers!

give an inch take a mile. I knew this sort of thing would be happening with the VR nerf. I use to run a regular pug raid on our offnights but the last couple of nights we have been getting an influx of new faces (which is fine its sort of the point) but they have been using some of the most asinine builds and get upset when we tell them we can't complete this raid with all these plate wearing caster archers. (because they were pulling less than 300-400 dps we literally couldn't kill three adds on the wisp mother and when we got to that point she was still 75% health. It was a nightmare.)

I don't announce that you need the achievement now but I do ask that you don't have some goofy plate archer build or something. Trials are the one place you actually need to have at least a little knowledge of what you are doing now and I doubt they will take that away.

Zero_Tolerance · July 2014

What stops you from making your own party? Go ahead and try: LFM AA full run, no cloth and staff users!!!
I'm sure you'll soon have a lot of like-minded friends pwning Trials in heavy armor with 2handers.

$infraction2008b16_ESO$ · July 2014

Zero_Tolerance wrote: »

What stops you from making your own party? Go ahead and try: LFM AA full run, no cloth and staff users!!!
I'm sure you'll soon have a lot of like-minded friends pwning Trials in heavy armor with 2handers.

Show me a video of a group consisting of mainly (not just one or two carried) 2H heavies actually clearing a raid and I might.

Until then I'd say you're ignoring the point entirely.

Aeratus · July 2014

That would be an interesting experiment with all 2h heavies.

Maybe nightblade + potion cooldown gear + argonian racials + all stacked into stamina might work.

Zero_Tolerance · July 2014

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

Show me a video of a group consisting of mainly (not just one or two carried) 2H heavies actually clearing a raid and I might.

Until then I'd say you're ignoring the point entirely.

I'm not ignoring anything. You are complaining about someone having his party with his rules. Go make your own group, it's that simple.

This game actually allows all of it's classes to be useful everywhere, provided they build and gear properly. Many MMOs completely remove entire classes from high-end PvE. I'd risk saying there is no MMO at all that allows any combo of it's classes to complete all the content (3h of death-zerging to boss from the nearest respawn doesn't really count as completing content

)

Artemiisia · July 2014

in raids on Age of Conan, they mange to make so 12 classes with 2 of each forming a raid of 24 has there role in the raids. Some more worth than others and some require more gear then others as well. Like the tank, healers can get away with lesser gear.

The Bosses is immune to some cc, and other cc works, makes those classes necessary in raid to complete, that means melee classes is needed if ESO somehow made bosses like this in the future.

That also makes raids more balanced with dps, since you cant do them without one race.

Of course there are more to it then just the CC, they have done other things so skills of the class is needed in some form or another.

coryevans_3b14_ESO · July 2014

Laura wrote: »

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

Always amusing when people whine about this sort of behavior and then insult them. What's the problem? do you feel inferior because groups that are regularly clearing the content won't carry you through it? or are you so selfish that you think other people should cater to your style of play? You don't have to join that group, you don't even have to read that text.

The game is imbalanced and it's clear that stamina builds are a hindrance in trials. Don't like it? get a different build or cause enough of a stir on the forums for the company to not ignore it and actually fix things but don't sit here and think that you're entitled to do this content if you're not going to take the time to do it right.

If you think you can do so well with your non meta build, find a group of like minded people and see how long it takes you to clear the content.

cheers!

give an inch take a mile. I knew this sort of thing would be happening with the VR nerf. I use to run a regular pug raid on our offnights but the last couple of nights we have been getting an influx of new faces (which is fine its sort of the point) but they have been using some of the most asinine builds and get upset when we tell them we can't complete this raid with all these plate wearing caster archers. (because they were pulling less than 300-400 dps we literally couldn't kill three adds on the wisp mother and when we got to that point she was still 75% health. It was a nightmare.)

I don't announce that you need the achievement now but I do ask that you don't have some goofy plate archer build or something. Trials are the one place you actually need to have at least a little knowledge of what you are doing now and I doubt they will take that away.

So the v12s before monday all got there legitmately? [snip] A bunch of folks exploited their way to v12 and now are indignant towards people who quested their way there. WOW.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Soothy · July 2014

Audigy wrote: »

I like to compare this to WOW. Nobody asked you during Vanilla about your DPS or if you were specced xy or had done content before. But since WOTLK when it all got easier it was a natural behavior by raid leaders.

It also was natural to know what CC is in Vanilla, you didn't had to explain tactics in a dungeon, today running a dungeon in WOW without a tactic sessions is horrible. Not because its hard, but because people learn nothing anymore on their way to max level.

You probably should have chosen a different comparison then

In Vanilla WoW no one asked about your DPS or if you were specced xyz because classes were so inflexible that you had to be a specific build to raid.

I am impressed you managed to complete Naxxramas without tactics explained in a dungeon. We (my guild) didn't even get past the second boss!

EDIT: Had a lot of white space under the post.

Anastasia · July 2014

Artemiisia wrote: »

Huckdabuck wrote: »

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Why did you invoke a mod?

thinking he dont like sarcasms and irony, which in this case people are just being funny and having some fun with the OPs picture that dont involve around trail requirements

what I dont understand though, this cant be a surprise to anyone, in every mmo if you dont have the necessary specs and requirements for the bosses. of course you shouldnt be in the raid, until you have.

Here 11 people are counting on you for success.

In Age of Conan, I have seen so many trying to go Tier 4 raid with Tier 1 raid gear, and they never get pass first boss, why both because of gear, but also because they dont have a health above 9.5k, which means u die when boss do his big volley of aoe.

Hazarding a guess here that some (not all of course), may be brand new to MMO's and have that different perspective goin on of course. Common sense that you have to meet the minimum requirements needed for grouping in endgame content though.

Of course, the particulars of who is permitted in the group or raid could be done with more finesse and with politenes. Not sure you'll see a whole lot of that though especially when a greater number of primarily soloing folks who sail through the lowered difficulty in V+ 1-10 which was changed Monday,will be showing up and knocking on the door after V+12 without the gear and a few build choices to support their decision to start heading into endgame competition.

Reevster · July 2014

Another stupid aspect in grouping/raiding and people wonder why alot of players want some solo content in these lame group/trail content addons..... let the morons have their trails and give us what we really want, some decent post Vr10 solo content.

Mahogany · July 2014

*Popcorn*

Anastasia · July 2014

coryevans_3b14_ESO wrote: »

Laura wrote: »

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

Always amusing when people whine about this sort of behavior and then insult them. What's the problem? do you feel inferior because groups that are regularly clearing the content won't carry you through it? or are you so selfish that you think other people should cater to your style of play? You don't have to join that group, you don't even have to read that text.

The game is imbalanced and it's clear that stamina builds are a hindrance in trials. Don't like it? get a different build or cause enough of a stir on the forums for the company to not ignore it and actually fix things but don't sit here and think that you're entitled to do this content if you're not going to take the time to do it right.

If you think you can do so well with your non meta build, find a group of like minded people and see how long it takes you to clear the content.

cheers!

give an inch take a mile. I knew this sort of thing would be happening with the VR nerf. I use to run a regular pug raid on our offnights but the last couple of nights we have been getting an influx of new faces (which is fine its sort of the point) but they have been using some of the most asinine builds and get upset when we tell them we can't complete this raid with all these plate wearing caster archers. (because they were pulling less than 300-400 dps we literally couldn't kill three adds on the wisp mother and when we got to that point she was still 75% health. It was a nightmare.)

I don't announce that you need the achievement now but I do ask that you don't have some goofy plate archer build or something. Trials are the one place you actually need to have at least a little knowledge of what you are doing now and I doubt they will take that away.

So the v12s before monday all got there legitmately? B.S. A bunch of folks exploited their way to v12 and now are indignant towards people who quested their way there. WOW.

***"So the v12s before monday all got there legitmately? B.S. A bunch of folks exploited their way to v12..."

Please don't expect that to hold much water.

First of all, CERTAINLY NOT ALL those who are at V+12 got there by some shady means.

Secondly, amongst those who may have taken shortcuts are people with a lot of experience from other mmo's and though they may not have earned their bones here, they know much about what they are doing and justify having taken whatever shortcuts they did because of expediency, not because they were green.

So if you want to and choose to compete at endgame, you will be dealing with a mixture of fairly experienced MMO'rs, because that is who mainly wants to compete there -- those who have done it elsewhere and find it their most favorite content in a given game.

This exclusiveness is based on the requirements set up by TESO's devs and cannot be circumvented when it comes to base DPS requirements or particular boss fight strategies. There is wiggle room for the groups put together for the purpose of LEARNING runs, but not for those attempting to complete say a timed trial or etc. It is what it is.

There will be no way to prove aside from personal contacts irl, which endgame players took the shortcut and whom did not. In most MMO's it is true that anyone who was carried will show their inexperience and earn their community rep thereafter, but that may take awhile. Have fun in endgame!

$infraction2008b16_ESO$ · July 2014

Zero_Tolerance wrote: »

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

Show me a video of a group consisting of mainly (not just one or two carried) 2H heavies actually clearing a raid and I might.

Until then I'd say you're ignoring the point entirely.

I'm not ignoring anything. You are complaining about someone having his party with his rules. Go make your own group, it's that simple.

No I am complaining about why this guy like many others has made these rules in the first place.

The game is borked to the point you even got someone above in this very thread making fun of a plate bow guy in a game advertised as "play as you want". Sure that plate bow guy shouldn't be able to do as much DPS as someone who has done their homework but that shouldn't mean they shouldn't be able to compete at all?

SirJesto · July 2014

No one has been smart enough to make a good melee build yet.

Sapphy24 · July 2014

and I thought I had left WoW far behind with its elitist morons, I suppose the next thing will be. "kicked from the dungeon/raid/whatever" cause your dps isn't high enough.

SirJesto · July 2014

I feel absolutely no pressure to play a skirt and staff at all. I like being unique and actually playing a heavy armor sword and shield. But that's just me.

Besides there is ZERO skill in those staff builds anyways. Try hand to hand combat kids. Real skill.