I'm a bad human being....

It's all about balance and finding that happy middle ground. Why Zos has such a tough time with this idk. It appears they only have one universal tool (aka hammer) with a 30% nerf head on it. 30% is pretty drastic in most cases.

The other half of the problem is the poor blending of solo & group content. With their linear/rails approach to everything they created this problem for themselves from the start. I still think the better solution would be to make it all group content and give solo players the option to hire mercenaries or some other form of npc help.

Absolutely in difficulty toggles for dungeons. LotRO has a tier system where you can select the dungeon and difficulty before entering, however in most cases the rewards don't reflect the increased difficulty. If ESO implemented this for all instanced dungeons (and possibly future adventure zones) people could find people of similar interests and content desires.

I however don't wish to be told that I should gimp myself to find the difficulty I want, as some have ' suggested '. Progressing as a player means me at my best vs the game at it's best. I also don't wish to be told to just go solo group objectives. I would like content that is designed to be completed solo, with a difficulty that gives me a sense of accomplishment.

I understand fully that there are players who don't wish to be pushed, who don't like dying, who don't want to feel like they can't/will have to work at doing something. I hope they receive solo content from ZOS that satisfies their desires. I hope they have the courtesy to hopethat ZOS provides solo content I can feel accomplishment from as well.

What a great, well thought out post!!! I am one who doesn't understand wanting "challenge" in a game - I just play for fun and to escape my problems. But I agree with you and your ideas are better than I have read from a lot of folks on both sides. Everybody deserves to have fun and everybody deserves to feel their subscription is just as meaningful as those who have a different play style.

Nothing is really elite or hardcore about mobs with a lot more health. It's just a pain . It's just there to get you to VR10 so that you can participate in endgame content.

Trials do not require anything overly skillful. Just cloth armor, staves, and a very large amount of banners.

Kudos for a great discussion thread.

As a loud complainer VR, I think that fixing the grouping/phasing problem (group anytime with anybody, group leader sets the content for the area) would have solved most (but not all) problems with VR.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

Difficulty toggles basically means " make my character weaker, not make the enemy stronger"

I'll pass

so what do you suggest? just cater to one side?

hk11 wrote: »

Nothing is really elite or hardcore about mobs with a lot more health. It's just a pain . It's just there to get you to VR10 so that you can participate in endgame content.

Trials do not require anything overly skillful. Just cloth armor, staves, and a very large amount of banners.

again. I think you are missing the point. I actually agree with you do you have any suggestions or.. just posting? I'm not even talking about the veteran content at this point I am talking about the future.

LonePirate wrote: »

Prior to Monday's changes, the upper Veteran zones were practically devoid of players. ZOS had to do something to encourage people to experience and play the content. While I would have preferred the implementation of a hired mercenary to join players on their journeys, the slight reduction in mob health and the larger reduction in damage inflicted by mobs was probably the best short term fix that could be made. There are several ways for elite players to make the game more difficult. There were no ways for casual players to make the game easier without ZOS making changes.

My VR8-10 zones were livelier and more populated the last two days than I have ever seen them. This is a step in the right direction.

I can't say that I see the same. I saw some curious people that were already veteran 12 but admittedly i haven't spent much time there my alt is only rank 7.

BBSooner wrote: »

Absolutely in difficulty toggles for dungeons. LotRO has a tier system where you can select the dungeon and difficulty before entering, however in most cases the rewards don't reflect the increased difficulty. If ESO implemented this for all instanced dungeons (and possibly future adventure zones) people could find people of similar interests and content desires.

I however don't wish to be told that I should gimp myself to find the difficulty I want, as some have ' suggested '. Progressing as a player means me at my best vs the game at it's best. I also don't wish to be told to just go solo group objectives. I would like content that is designed to be completed solo, with a difficulty that gives me a sense of accomplishment.

I understand fully that there are players who don't wish to be pushed, who don't like dying, who don't want to feel like they can't/will have to work at doing something. I hope they receive solo content from ZOS that satisfies their desires. I hope they have the courtesy to hopethat ZOS provides solo content I can feel accomplishment from as well.

I agree with this. Its the other sides equivalent of l2p. Both are idiotic. I think a big part of the issue with this game on both sides is there is very little to do outside of grouping once you hit end game. I think a fun solo minigame with toggle able difficulty for cosmetic items and etc would help. Its called distraction content, things to keep people occupied while they have time to work on bigger projects.

Korinth wrote: »

Lets face it.... there are not enough "Elite" players to maintain a sub base for this game.

90% of my guild has left TESO or has pretty much stopped playing due to one thing. And it wasn't the difficulty.... it was the fact that with the crappy phased storylines preventing people from teaming unless you all were at EXACTLY the same progress in the story. Horrible idea that I spammed Zenimax about during beta...and horrible idea now.

The hard, pre-nerf, vet areas were made to "encourage" teamplay. Great...I get it (and liked the harder content when I could find a person to play with ...which is getting rare). I spent 2 hours in Grahtwood at the first boss in the fighters guild at the fort looking for someone to team with (on Sunday). Spammed zone chat and finally one person responded. Sorry..that sucks...I shouldn't have to spam zone chat for hours to get someone to complete a PvE storyline mission.

Hence the calls for solo'able content.

I agree the phasing is a complete and total joke, but most of the hardcore is leaving because... well the end game content can be completed the very first day you try it.

Only a very small percentage of hard core actually want to do the time trials for most of us its about getting that massive adrenalin rush after you finally kill a boss that has taken you forever to complete. The rush is addictive and hard to explain but it seems to be something shared with us. The "nerd screams" you hear after a hard boss kill in videos.

I personally think that the middle ground is the most populated gamer. I think even they will find very little to do or challenge them in end game. Veteran and trials being normal mode (maybe with some small adjustments like easing up on the dps check) - some nightmare mode that is insanely tuned and will take the hardcore a long time to complete - and maybe a super easy pug gable version so people can at least see the story.

Guppet wrote: »

The only part that was biased was your disclaimer, apologising if you sounded biased, lol.

Difficulty toggles are definitely a good idea. Currently there are no normal difficulty dungeons for people at level cap, only heroic. That needs fixing, it would also stop people calling for nerfs when they reach them.

I think it would be cool if delves could have a difficulty toggle too, if you chose hard, they would become solo only and have the mobs stats boosted about 30%.

If they ever balance the classes, there's another option for finding hard solo challenges. One thing I frequently enjoyed in WoW was soloing old raids and 5 man dungeons. It could take many hours, but boy was it satisfying.

Soloing some of the 4 man dungeons can be quite a challenge in this game, but only if you don't cheese it. Maybe award titles for completing instances solo.

how so? If it is I'll change it. I'm trying to be as approachable as possible.

This is an MMO. Yes, you can toggle difficulty in "zones", like dungeons.

Its very complicated and I wonder if its even possible to do this world wide.

I dont think the question is difficulty, but interesting gameplay.
It is a fact, that whatever type of player you are, when you have done "everything" that you know of.....you of course get bored.

I think the main reasons for this whole discussion and Zenimax changes are based on.

1. Launch - May
2. A lot of players bought ESO without knowing anything about it. Expecting WoW 2, mostly. Of course they left.
3. Not all MMO players have experienced launches, and left because of bugs and fixes which is very normal.
4. June - Player base had a better ideas what ESO was, and several types of players found, "hey...this is a pretty cool game!" By then, some of their friend have left already, thinking ESO was a buggy game. Not knowing that bugs gets fixed.
5. June - Cyro was a problem for so long, effecting not just PvP players.
6. Late June - Player base starting slowly to grow communities (Look at all other sites). Guilds are forming with players who do not quit. They are small, still, they are growing, and more are forming.
7. Now - Zenimax must at one point do a check. Is our vision, way to build the game, working? Will players enjoy what they deliver? This is just as hard question to have an answer as in ANY business with a target customers in the 100.000s. They have to base their changes on numbers, feedback and Business.
8. ESO is according to Zenimax, not a "skyrim" game, where you get everything perfect and in game right away. Its an RPGMMO that offers gameplay for several types of players, where content keeps getting added, to create a living Tamriel and keep all types of players interested. This is working. Look how we all like what we see?
9. With the fix of Cyro, the PvP players now have a game as well. In Zenimax plans, it states a lot about high end game, where ESO needs work, to offer the "elite raiders" type player content as well.
10. Zenimax intended to bring back, what we as MMO players have lost. The ability to group, unless there is a raid, or a tool that puts you in a dungeon group. I think what they did not expect or may not have time for, is the time it takes for us as players to get used to "Hey, we did a dolmen...you where quick. wanna group and try that boss camp over there?". A simple thing like giving a stranger a tell, is hard for us today. BUT it is slowly happening.
11. ESO has several features they need to deliver, balance with bug fixes, gameplay, builds, players types and this the sad fact, but unless a company makes money, they cant deliver even the best of products.

This will sound easy, but I think there are 3 very simple solutions

1. If you want a group, make one.

2. Join or create a guild, accept that making a guild takes time. Who you invite is critical to what type of guild it is, how long members stays, trust in guildbank, etc. Looking for the right guild is almost as hard. Every guild promise the best, but I would say, ANY guild that offers an invite right away, without even talking to you for 20 mins or so...has a quite big risk of having none interacting members.

3. Patience. We have gotten WAY to used to get everything really well done in todays technology. Waiting for something good is simply rare. I do not blame the person, but how we are used with technology today.

These suggestions may seam to have nothing to do with difficulty. But if ESO manage to have a community in game, which PLAYERS create, not Zenimax, then this question regarding difficulty would only really apply to solo players who where UNABLE to progress. Not just "to hard", but outright impossible.

As well as the problem "elite raiders" have. ESO did market that this group was included, however the end game content, even though ESO offers it, is not like ELITE raiders are used too.
For solo players, there is already plans for more Quests content like the main quest line, solo instanced. And each of the thief and Dark brotherhood guild is said to come with its own storyline. Very solo.

Guild, grouping up, talking to others, in one word, community in game.
And Patience. That will solve a lot of the "problems" we see, and turn them around to excitement for whats around the corner.

I started a thread a while back. http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/117981/how-would-you-feel-about-having-one-elite-zone-for-solo-play

I was really searching for a viable, fun compromise. The thread didn't go far because at the time nobody wanted to discuss a compromise.

There are certain times when text can be taken out of context. But this topic just seems to breed hostility. I can only speak for myself, but I have tried very hard to approach this issue with an open mind and willing to have civil discussions. One can only take so many insults though before they inevitably lash out in return. And after playing MMOs for 20 years, nothing, and I mean nothing gets me riled up more than reading post after post from people who think that anyone with lesser gaming skills or anyone with an interest in milder content is somehow beneath them, or is somehow less of a person.

I've been doing this for a very long time I have been in raid guilds. I have been in guilds that do raids, heroic dungeons and other challenging content that requires top notch specs/builds/rotations. Because of that, I have seen so many people get crushed. I've seen people get looked down upon. I've seen people made to feel like they are less than human just because their dps was low. I've seen people kicked out of guilds and raids and dungeon runs because their gear wasn't good enough or their spec wasn't good enough or their dps/hot wasn't good enough.

This seldom happens to me. I know my characters. I study and research builds. I crave to be good. I want to be good. I am competitive and I am generally in the top % of whatever it is that I set out to do. So this isn't and never has been about me. This is about all the people that get picked on, ridiculed, tormented, isolated, and mocked.

Know what I've found over the years? 90% of those people are very capable of achieving top dps or top heals or great tanking if someone would only treat them with respect and dignity while explaining things. They are more than capable of being outstanding if they don't feel patronized.

So that is the foundation for my entire stance through all of this. I don't like bullies.

In regards to the OP,the thread I posted above I thought offers a really cool and unique approach that would appeal to gamers that enjoy unforgiving solo content.

I admire that you try Laura, but I have small hopes for a civil discussion here.

Lets face it, most anti VR people are very hostile towards those that liked these challenges. Their prejudice of "you unemployed", "you are dumb cave dweller" are actually two of the more harmless insults I came across in these threads.


What you said about WOW doesn't fit my experience in that game. Blizzard is just as bad as people here at the forum.

They only know two kinds of people.

1. Too dumb to play

Those then get daily quest´s, LFR, LFD and random BG´s where you can not win anything important and will only be the joke of the masses if you compete.

2. Elite cave dweller

Those get all the HC raids, dungeon challenges, Arena etc. all those things that require sacrifices from a persons RL.

Unfortunately did Blizzard never manage to look after the majority of their players, the Casuals.

Casuals are not too dumb to play, but they also don't have the luxury of giving up their RL to play games. So both contents that Blizzard supplies are pretty much wasted resources and you can see this by looking at the subs over there and in the guilds. My Casual guild has only 1 player left and it was a 80 men guild from Vanilla with raid and pvp success. People just stopped, especially with WOTLK as the game was either catered to the "dumb" or the "elite" from that point on.


Therefore I don't think that WOW is a good example for a working game with a healthy society.

Was ZO so bad?

In my opinion did ZO a lot right with the VR system.

It was a fully optional part of the game, those players who were into story could experience this by leveling from 1-50. Yet again, this resulted in a lot of hate, as people didn't accept that others could play there while they couldn't, even if there were pretty much no rewards whatsoever... its pure jealousy and greed

And exactly this is what we will face with any feature that ZO adds. If specific people can not do it, then they will complain about this and even if they are a vocal minority, they will succeed in the long run.

What MMOs do

MMOs will always have something a player can not do instantly. Bad MMO´s base these type of things on "group or die" like WOW does with the things I mentioned above.
Good MMOs base these type of things on the personal skill of a player and the overall time investment in learning and improving the virtual ego. ZO tried this with the VR zones, which were mostly soloable with passer byes or the player alone.

If they would had fixed a few bugs in the skill lines, wouldn't have released Crag too early and removed Skyshards from there or made them obtainable from the 1-50, then only the personal skill would had decided if someone fails or not and those that failed wouldn't lose anything by not playing VR, but just 1-50.

Sadly we all know that this wasn't how it happened and I think its a real shame, the core idea was good. That said, even if ZO would had done as I said, I am sure the complainers would had been at the forum due pure jealousy and greed.

How Ultima did

Another example for a working system is Ultima. There players are used to the fact that 99% of the things upon making the Char are not achievable and they understand that a steady investment of time and in skill unlocks new content for them. I was in a cave once, it took me 8 months to be ready for it

Something like this is the only way how it can work, make personal skill important and not if you can give up your RL to do trials or dungeons (guild or group content) or if you can whine until its so easy that everyone can do it.

Realistic at ESO?


That this however is achievable with a community that on the one side demands that everything tough must be locked behind premade groups and on the other, that everything must be an instant gratification if solo or in the open world is unlikely.


From my point of view, we don't need to look at WOW - we need to look at ourself and figure out how we can get better, before we actually try to make the game better. Games fail due the communities mostly and not so much the designers of them.

Its far easier for a player to make his experience more difficult if he/she wants than it is for a player to make it easier. !

If a player wants they can not use any buffs, they could remove any jewellery/sets they are wearing. Or.. they could even just wear gear a level or two lower than they are. The ways to ramp up difficulty are numerous.
Hell, they could even try running group Dungeons solo if they want a real nightmare mode game.

However, it's not so easy to make the experience easier. Most people will 'already' be wearing the best gear they can, use the best enchants. Some will already/possibly be using buffs just to level.

Doing what Zenimax did has not really affected things as much as people say. Initially maybe, but once you look more closely, those that want a more difficult experience can do so... quite simply !

Anastasia wrote: »

Yep, that they did. Ought not to be very many pro-nerf V+1 - 10 content folks necessarily needing to post now I suppose since they got what they wanted as you put it.

No reason to see any posts upcoming with demands to nerf endgame groupage, make Craglorn solo, or as new content is published - to lessen the difficulty there either, right?

I vote FOR solo folks to get MORE fun, interesting content for them to enjoy. I just didn't want nerfs to be brought to group-encouraged content. But, it did. It is good to see more people discussing this in a reasonable manner though!

I thought the idea that the pro-nerf V+ 1-10 content players were treated sorta second-class by giving them some nerfage in a few zones instead of receiving cool, new solo content was well, less. Providing them with the respect they should receive as an important part of the population in TESO may be coming in Phases II, III or IV though, cause ZOS is busy at work on it. *Remain hopeful!

I understand where you're coming from. However...Like i said. "one man's meat is another man's poison"

FUN is specifically unique to every player.

For me FUN was the gargoyle fight where you had to make the gargoyle smash the stone statues to advance.
The puzzle where u had to figure out the right sequence of things to press based on the clues scattered around the room.

NOT fun for ME SPECIFICALLY. is having to DIE just to use my respawn crystal to pass by that storm atronach that is between me and advancing. cos i tried ten times earlier and just couldn't kill him solo.

NOT fun for me, is having to shout "lfg for xxx" endlessly untill someone comes along so i can progress.

So...different strokes for different folks.

Devlinne wrote: »

The puzzle where u had to figure out the right sequence of things to press based on the clues scattered around the room.

NOT fun for me, is having to shout "lfg for xxx" endlessly untill someone comes along so i can progress.

Agree completely.
Especially the puzzles bit. For a TES based game the lack of puzzles in dismaying.

Cogo wrote: »

Laugh if you like, but I am just making sure about one thing.

We all want ESO to be here in a year, somewhat similar with lots of new ideas, but still ESO?

Not talking in details this and that.

ESO, not Eve, Not wow, not Wildstar, but ESO, right?
We discussing features, improvements, ideas, but all of us wants ESO to be here, for years to come, as ESO?

Just checking. Cause this thread seams.....GOOD!

I was hoping for ESO Next..... with strippers...and blackjack!

Regarding phasing

I don't wanna be my normal Cogo and throw stuff in people face "YOU are wrong", unless some tries to sabotage ESO or something.

I see a lot of complaint about phasing. Not just here, but Wildstar, WoW and other games are full of em. That "take away" phasing and stuff would be fine.

I am sorry, but no one would like that, either they know it or not.

"Fix the damn phasing"
Phasing is not directly a new technology, but like cellphones, its old, but advancing. Leading the phasing technology are MMOs, close by classrooms new software. (Talking young schooldays).

The "problem" with phasing is several. The software may not be created by the MMO. If it is, then its like any other software, depending on the creator.

Technical crap is you are interested WHY phasing do not work with your friend
Unless you have noticed, Phasing in ESO have improved HUGELY since launch.
The problem ALL phasing software have, is "zoning". That means, the software do not "follow" when the database - virtual environment - character storage data and the Software called ESO, which all works as a unit. None of them cares one bit, If you go into a "zone". A zone can be a bank, dungeon, new area zone. Anything that loads you from your current area to a new one.

That is why phasing does not work when you are grouped with a friend and cant helped them in the case they have to zone into, unless your phasing code is on the same "level".

Phasing software simply is not capable of that. Eve have an extended published manual how to create phasing to do just this. The "problem" is that in Eve online, you most likely have World class experts in Linux, virtual and platform builds, porting software and deep down coding. Eve pretty much built their whole game from ground up, with only their own personal. ALL software, except for database, OS for servers and network software, they all built themselves. I am not sure about graphics. Eve have the same Devs now as 10 years ago.

All other MMO do not have that. Not because of money, because of access to these people who knows each other and stays at the same company for that long. Also, building any big software today on any platform other then Microsoft or Apple not only costs alot of money, but requires the correct techs, WHO STAYS.

If you accept that phasing does NOT work when you "zone", you find that phasing in ESO is pretty damn good