So DK's Fiery Grip Was Nerfed Monday.......
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Rammanjeff✭✭You know what? If players were abusing the skill then they deserve what they got! Sorry that the innocent had to pay the price for those abusing it but thats what happens.
If you dont want your skills nerfed, THEN DONT ABUSE THEM!It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong. ~ Thomas Sowell3 -
WebBull✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rammanjeff wrote: »You know what? If players were abusing the skill then they deserve what they got! Sorry that the innocent had to pay the price for those abusing it but thats what happens.
If you dont want your skills nerfed, THEN DONT ABUSE THEM!
There were 100 changes they could have made to no punish everyone by destroying the entire skill.
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xMovingTarget✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This can only be an unintended bug. It wasnt even viable to slot in before this. I have to say there are moments its useful but most times its just a junk skill. But now it doesnt even has its moments anymore.
And yea, a little hill completely destroys it. So i cannot imagine that was intended. Give it time and wait it out. This is clearly a bug. No skill in ESO is height dependend. At least none you shoot directly to target.
I think they just did this as temporary fix for the pulling through wall crap that was going on. I hope they get it straight rather sooner than later.
But i agree they should have mentioned that in the notes.Edited by xMovingTarget on July 9, 2014 4:38PM1 -
Obscure✭✭✭✭✭@monkeymystic
Me thinks you're being a bit too dramatic. They made it less versatile, not less powerful. It's exactly the same skill it's always been, it just has fewer applications. I legitimately only slotted it to use for keep fights to yank the unsuspecting player off the walls, but otherwise never saw a need to use it otherwise. Empowering Chains and Magnum Shot cycling was a funny way to play with people, but in the end there's just better options overall than pulling a target that are sternly competing for that limited skill bar real estate. Why focus on pulling when you can just spec to kill it at that range? If it wants to be in melee then you let them waste their resources getting into position with you. Good ol fashioned rope-a-dope.
Yeah I'll miss yanking folks off walls, but it's not a huge deal. Still works fine horizontally and at slight angles. Hardly "completely destroyed" as you so claim.4 -
Fairydragon3✭✭✭✭sigh, i was hoping they wouldn't do this, when I heard about the PVP gate exploit. z-axis restriction is pretty damn short sighted, they should have know this would severely impact the enjoyment of Ardent flame class.
if this is the case they need to just ditch the ability altogether and just give us something else, because obviously they don't know how to make it fit in the balance0 -
Orizuru✭✭✭You can't pull down from keep walls anymore. You can't pull players up or down from rocks anymore. In some cases you can't even pull players on hillsides.
Didn't see this nerf in the patch notes. I know it was talked about and still shows up on the under the "patch 1.2.3 known issues" as being tested for "pulling enemies through walls" but yet the nerf went through stopping players from pulling anything higher or lower.
This was a fun skill that was not overpowered. It would keep ranged players on their toes to be careful from not being pulled down from walls. Once again a fun skill is nerfed and the advantage goes to ranged who can pretty much stand freely now on keep walls.
Players getting into the Cryodiil spawn areas was due to terrain design and guards not spawning. Not from players being pulled up by Fiery Grip. There was no need for this nerf.
Pretty much just a PvE skill now.
I think it's unfortunate that this skill was nerfed the way it was, because the impact of the nerf is much more broad than the problems that made the nerf necessary.
However, the way players were using it to sneak enemy players into a keep without having to lay siege to the keep was really pushing the envelope for intended use of the skill within the spirit of fair game play.
Edit: Out of curiosity, did the morph for Silver Bolts that does this get the same or similar treatment? Or did it function differently than Fiery Chains in some way that it was not an issue?
Edited by Orizuru on July 9, 2014 5:15PM0 -
WebBull✭✭✭✭✭
✭@monkeymystic
Me thinks you're being a bit too dramatic. They made it less versatile, not less powerful. It's exactly the same skill it's always been, it just has fewer applications.
Yeah I'll miss yanking folks off walls, but it's not a huge deal. Still works fine horizontally and at slight angles. Hardly "completely destroyed" as you so claim.
Fewer applications? Like what applications? You realize it affects PvE too. No one is going waste a bar slot for this skill that only works on completely flat ground. There is hardly any flat terrain in Cyrodill unless you are next to a keep.
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NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This sucks.
Seems like every attempted fix just serves to break something and make the game less fun to play.
This game was absolutely better and more balanced on launch day than it is now with the exception of Bat-Swarm exploit.3 -
Obscure✭✭✭✭✭@monkeymystic
Me thinks you're being a bit too dramatic. They made it less versatile, not less powerful. It's exactly the same skill it's always been, it just has fewer applications.
Yeah I'll miss yanking folks off walls, but it's not a huge deal. Still works fine horizontally and at slight angles. Hardly "completely destroyed" as you so claim.
Fewer applications? Like what applications? You realize it affects PvE too. No one is going waste a bar slot for this skill that only works on completely flat ground. There is hardly any flat terrain in Cyrodill unless you are next to a keep.
Fiery Reach Applications:
• Pull target out of position
• Pull target into AoE's (Fire Rune, Ash Cloud, Wall of Elements, Volley, Dragonknight Standard, etc.)
• Pull target and counts as a effect that triggers Lava Whip off-balance kicker (also allows for Flame Lash morph secondary attack)
• Pull target from keep walls (no effect on NPCs)
• Pull target onto keep walls (no effect on NPCs)
• Pull target vertically
Empowering Chains Applications:
• See Fiery Reach Applications
• Increase Damage to Lava Whip and trigger Lava Whip off-balance kicker (also allows for Flame Lash morph secondary attack)
Extended Chains Applications:
•See Fiery Reach Applications
Same skill, fewer applications. Sure, it's lame. Completely Worthless? No. The only reason I used it was specifically to yank people off of keep walls. Hence I no longer have a reason to use it. Other builds can still use it on horizontal planes and at slight angles (if I had to guess by eye balling it, I'd say it's ±10°) to trigger Lava Whip, or drag them into AoE's, or both. Again, just as powerful, but less versatile (I.E. fewer ways to use it).0 -
WebBull✭✭✭✭✭
✭@monkeymystic
Me thinks you're being a bit too dramatic. They made it less versatile, not less powerful. It's exactly the same skill it's always been, it just has fewer applications.
Yeah I'll miss yanking folks off walls, but it's not a huge deal. Still works fine horizontally and at slight angles. Hardly "completely destroyed" as you so claim.
Fewer applications? Like what applications? You realize it affects PvE too. No one is going waste a bar slot for this skill that only works on completely flat ground. There is hardly any flat terrain in Cyrodill unless you are next to a keep.
Fiery Reach Applications:
• Pull target out of position
• Pull target into AoE's (Fire Rune, Ash Cloud, Wall of Elements, Volley, Dragonknight Standard, etc.)
• Pull target and counts as a effect that triggers Lava Whip off-balance kicker (also allows for Flame Lash morph secondary attack)
• Pull target from keep walls (no effect on NPCs)
• Pull target onto keep walls (no effect on NPCs)
• Pull target vertically
Empowering Chains Applications:
• See Fiery Reach Applications
• Increase Damage to Lava Whip and trigger Lava Whip off-balance kicker (also allows for Flame Lash morph secondary attack)
Extended Chains Applications:
•See Fiery Reach Applications
Same skill, fewer applications. Sure, it's lame. Completely Worthless? No. The only reason I used it was specifically to yank people off of keep walls. Hence I no longer have a reason to use it. Other builds can still use it on horizontal planes and at slight angles (if I had to guess by eye balling it, I'd say it's ±10°) to trigger Lava Whip, or drag them into AoE's, or both. Again, just as powerful, but less versatile (I.E. fewer ways to use it).
Thanks, we all know what the skill does. The problem is the ground has to be completely FLAT. All the above that you typed means nothing unless they flatten the entire Cyrodiil map.
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Lord_Draevan✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well this sucks. I use this skill a lot to pull enemies up or down walls during sieges... guess I'm switching it out when I log in tonight. Shame, it was useful.Edited by Lord_Draevan on July 9, 2014 6:52PMI'm a man of few words. Any questions?NA/PC server0 -
Obscure✭✭✭✭✭Thanks, we all know what the skill does.
Don't ask rhetorical questions unless you want a rhetorical answer.Fewer applications? Like what applications?The problem is the ground has to be completely FLAT. All the above that you typed means nothing unless they flatten the entire Cyrodiil map.Other builds can still use it on horizontal planes and at slight angles (if I had to guess by eye balling it, I'd say it's ±10°) to trigger Lava Whip, or drag them into AoE's, or both.
Doesn't work for you anymore? Doesn't work for me anymore either. Know what I did about it? Stopped using it. Wasn't in my primary build to begin with since it was never that great to begin with, like Sea of Flames. I gave it a big "sucks, but so what?" and moved on months ago. It was a keep offense and defense tool for me, and was right back off the bar as soon as that was over. Now it's not, and I still give it a big "sucks, but so what?". Played with it in a few builds, but those builds were cute at best, so I didn't end up using them or it. Meh skill gets more meh. Maybe it'll make for better DK's now that they have a slot to put something better in.
Not saying you shouldn't think it's a bad change, I agree it's a bad change, and really lazy game design. But being realistic, it's not that bad. Not like it just shoots out a flag that says "BANG!" on it. It's not completely worthless, just worth even less than other things you can use that were better options to begin with.Edited by Obscure on July 9, 2014 7:04PM1 -
frwinters_ESO✭✭✭✭Blame the exploiters and dishonorable PvP peoples who were using it to pull their friends over walls to steal scrolls and grief players. ZOS had to do something and this is what it has become for now.0 -
NerfEverything✭✭✭✭✭I don't know why anyone is surprised. Templars got a massive stealth nerf to biting jabs (that actually did completely destroy the skill by adding a 1.5sec GLOBAL COOLDOWN), all because bots were abusing it.
DK's actually got a very gentle nerf comparatively.1 -
demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Can Fiery Grip even reach people on keep walls without first being morphed to Extended Chains?0 -
monkeymystic✭✭✭✭✭NerfEverything wrote: »monkeymystic wrote: »Jesus christ.
Zenimax messed up again...
They destroy an ability COMPLETELY that is already quite bad and expensive to fix a bug.
They could have fixed the bug without destroying the ability...
@zos_ginabruno What's up with destroying the ability and take 5 steps back to fix a bug and go 1 step forward, and without mentioning it in the notes...again?
Wow, over-react a little more. I didn't realize that adding a Z-axis check, a completely reasonable bug fix, constitutes "completely destroying" and ability.
Yes pretty much completely destroyed. As much as you may like the nerf because it benefits you, it was completely over the top. If you read the entire thread you would have seen that you can't even pull a mob on step slightly higher. Since the majority of the terrain in the game (and certainly PvP) is not flat, the skill is pretty much now useless as no one is going to put it on their bar.
Also annoying is that the nerf was never even officially documented. Still isn't.
I'm amazed how zenimax manages to destroy their own gameplay like this.
They just rip mechanics apart and the skill is now completely useless because they tried to fix a bug...It's a parody.1 -
PlagueMonk✭✭✭✭✭murklor007neb18_ESO wrote: »
Messed up? How so?monkeymystic wrote: »Jesus christ.
Zenimax messed up again...
They destroy an ability COMPLETELY that is already quite bad and expensive to fix a bug.
They could have fixed the bug without destroying the ability...
@zos_ginabruno What's up with destroying the ability and take 5 steps back to fix a bug and go 1 step forward, and without mentioning it in the notes...again?
Its really quite simple. If a class specific ability is "decent" in ESO (such as being able to pull people to you) its going to get nerfed sooner or later. With only 4 classes, in ideal situations there would be 25% of people in the game using the class. Any imbalance is going to be noticable with that high number of people playing the class.
They've basicly backed themselves into a corner with their own skill system by making it common... And that is why we cant have nice things.
lol at DKs only being 25% of the population.
I go out into Cyrodiil and you can't swing a dead cat w/o hitting a DK. Takes me minutes to finish a DK bounty. Now when i get the Templar bounty, it take me hours to finish it.0 -
demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭PlagueMonk wrote: »murklor007neb18_ESO wrote: »
Messed up? How so?monkeymystic wrote: »Jesus christ.
Zenimax messed up again...
They destroy an ability COMPLETELY that is already quite bad and expensive to fix a bug.
They could have fixed the bug without destroying the ability...
@zos_ginabruno What's up with destroying the ability and take 5 steps back to fix a bug and go 1 step forward, and without mentioning it in the notes...again?
Its really quite simple. If a class specific ability is "decent" in ESO (such as being able to pull people to you) its going to get nerfed sooner or later. With only 4 classes, in ideal situations there would be 25% of people in the game using the class. Any imbalance is going to be noticable with that high number of people playing the class.
They've basicly backed themselves into a corner with their own skill system by making it common... And that is why we cant have nice things.
lol at DKs only being 25% of the population.
I go out into Cyrodiil and you can't swing a dead cat w/o hitting a DK. Takes me minutes to finish a DK bounty. Now when i get the Templar bounty, it take me hours to finish it.
i do believe he was not stating that 25% of the pop are dks.0 -
AlexDrago✭✭✭Why do I remember all of those "Sorc's, your tears are delicious"-threads about BE nerfing?If you have nothing to say say nothing ©1 -
ZOS_GinaBrunoCommunity ManagerHi there, everyone. We did recently make a change to Fiery Grip in patch 1.2.5 that was mistakenly not included in the patch notes as there is still an art-related fix to be made. We reduced the Y-axis (vertical distance variable) of this ability from 10m to 8.5m as we found that it was mitigating the defender’s advantage too heavily while in Cyrodiil. This change was also made to address an issue where some players were creating characters of opposing factions, and pulling themselves into keeps to bypass intended keep siege mechanics. We apologize for making this change to the mechanic without telling you; it was not our intent.Gina Bruno
Principal Creator Engagement Manager
Dev Tracker | Service Alerts | ESO Twitter | My Twitter9 -
Ardeni✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Hi there, everyone. We did recently make a change to Fiery Grip in patch 1.2.5 that was mistakenly not included in the patch notes as there is still an art-related fix to be made. We reduced the Y-axis (vertical distance variable) of this ability from 10m to 8.5m as we found that it was mitigating the defender’s advantage too heavily while in Cyrodiil. This change was also made to address an issue where some players were creating characters of opposing factions, and pulling themselves into keeps to bypass intended keep siege mechanics. We apologize for making this change to the mechanic without telling you; it was not our intent.
I would be interested in hearing how come it is still possible to pull your enemies up to the walls as a defender while it is impossible to pull the defenders down. Is the range of the ability bigger when you use it on opponents below you rather than above you?
That being said, I respectfully disagree with the change all together. The grip was easily avoidable by using immovable, block (you can use block and cast most of the skills at the same time) or simply by not going near to the walls.1 -
WebBull✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Hi there, everyone. We did recently make a change to Fiery Grip in patch 1.2.5 that was mistakenly not included in the patch notes as there is still an art-related fix to be made. We reduced the Y-axis (vertical distance variable) of this ability from 10m to 8.5m as we found that it was mitigating the defender’s advantage too heavily while in Cyrodiil. This change was also made to address an issue where some players were creating characters of opposing factions, and pulling themselves into keeps to bypass intended keep siege mechanics. We apologize for making this change to the mechanic without telling you; it was not our intent.
Thank you Gina. I must admit I am still confused. Are the current changes on live fully working as intended? As of now, you can't even pull on a slight hill.
Edited by WebBull on July 14, 2014 7:58PM0 -
SDZald✭✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Hi there, everyone. We did recently make a change to Fiery Grip in patch 1.2.5 that was mistakenly not included in the patch notes as there is still an art-related fix to be made. We reduced the Y-axis (vertical distance variable) of this ability from 10m to 8.5m as we found that it was mitigating the defender’s advantage too heavily while in Cyrodiil. This change was also made to address an issue where some players were creating characters of opposing factions, and pulling themselves into keeps to bypass intended keep siege mechanics. We apologize for making this change to the mechanic without telling you; it was not our intent.
Thank you very much for making the skill totally useless in PvE to stop tools from exploiting a small area of PvP which I don't play. Just wanted you guys to know how happy that makes me!
While we are on the subject, you people REALLY need to work on your communications skills, it seems that about %90 of what you put in patches gets "mistakenly" left out of the patch notes, then it takes you weeks to even acknowledge it even happened. Keep up the fine work!
Edited by SDZald on July 14, 2014 7:57PM6 -
Giraffon✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »...This change was also made to address an issue where some players were creating characters of opposing factions, and pulling themselves into keeps to bypass intended keep siege mechanics...
I think it would be fine if a DK pulled an enemy up over the wall quite by accident. That would be one of those "oops!" moments--sort of like inviting a vampire into your home.
Consider this:
An enemy get's pulled over the wall and they manage to kill the fool that did it. The enemy can go crazy on as many players as he can, but as soon as he comes into contact with an NPC guard, an alarm is sounded and the attack radius of the NPCs expands to insane levels where basically every single NPC behind the wall comes over to attack the invader. And while we're at it, let's have the guards respawn at a guard house as soon as they are killed.
Giraffon - Beta Lizard - For the Pact!0 -
WebBull✭✭✭✭✭
✭Please show it in the next patch note release so we at least get our skill points back......Actually after the multitude of DK nerfs, a full class respec should be granted.
Edited by WebBull on July 14, 2014 10:54PM2
