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So DK's Fiery Grip Was Nerfed Monday.......

WebBull
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You can't pull down from keep walls anymore. You can't pull players up or down from rocks anymore. In some cases you can't even pull players on hillsides.

Didn't see this nerf in the patch notes. I know it was talked about and still shows up on the under the "patch 1.2.3 known issues" as being tested for "pulling enemies through walls" but yet the nerf went through stopping players from pulling anything higher or lower.

This was a fun skill that was not overpowered. It would keep ranged players on their toes to be careful from not being pulled down from walls. Once again a fun skill is nerfed and the advantage goes to ranged who can pretty much stand freely now on keep walls.

Players getting into the Cryodiil spawn areas was due to terrain design and guards not spawning. Not from players being pulled up by Fiery Grip. There was no need for this nerf.

Pretty much just a PvE skill now.

  • xMovingTarget
    xMovingTarget
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    WebBull wrote: »
    Pretty much just a PvE skill now.

    nah. not at all. used it in trials sometimes to pull some outside mobs into the group aoe. But thats not viable anymore. If the mob is 1cm above or below you, the pull doesnt work.

    So in the end, its pretty much useless in its current state.
  • Shunravi
    Shunravi
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    Well... This sucks.

    That was a great mechanic to have in fights.
    This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!
  • MasterSpatula
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    That's odd. They specifically said they weren't going to do this.
    "A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle
  • Samadhi
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    DK players have been pulling enemies onto Keep walls for ages so that they can cap a Keep without having to lay siege.
    That's the source of the change most likely.
    "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
    Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
  • Maverick827
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    That's odd. They specifically said they weren't going to do this.
    Which should have been the first clue that they totally were going to.
  • WebBull
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    That's odd. They specifically said they weren't going to do this.

    Well hopefully it went live before it was supposed to because as it stand now....the skill is pretty much useless.

    Hopefully a mod will comment if this was intended or not.

  • xaraan
    xaraan
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    As a victim of being pulled off a keep wall before, I thought this was a great skill as is. It was fun to worry about actually and watch for. In a review I wrote for a site before launch, I even talked about how scared I got watching an archer beside me yanked off the wall in a keep defense. Thought that was cool.

    Only thing I hate about them are the jerks in PvE that yank stuff away from other players mid fight.
    -- @xaraan --
    nightblade: Xaraan templar: Xaraan-dar dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus necromancer: Xaraan-qa warden: Xaraanodon sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
    AD • NA • PC
  • Sihnfahl
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    xaraan wrote: »
    As a victim of being pulled off a keep wall before, I thought this was a great skill as is.
    As someone who keeps an eye out for potential exploits, the ability to cross-faction and collaborate with others to have your toons pulled one by one into an enemy keep, uncontested, did call for a balance issue.

    Personally, I would have gone for the 'cannot capture a scroll unless at least one outer and one inner wall is down' route, but hey...
  • Akhratos
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    I noticed it today as well. You can not pull an enemy now if hes 5cms above you, pretty stupid...

    I was trying to pull a mob that was in the 2nd step of a stairway and it just kept falling.

    @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ any word on this? You specifically told us you would not change the ability to pull players from the edge of walls and now we can not even pull mobs from the top of a dinner table. I think this may require some investigation.
  • Ardeni
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    This was present even before 1.2.5. Ever since they fixed the "going through walls" part, nobody has been able to pull people down from walls. It only works when you are in a higher altitude than your enemy. I don't think it's working as intended.
  • kitsinni
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    Sihnfahl wrote: »
    xaraan wrote: »
    As a victim of being pulled off a keep wall before, I thought this was a great skill as is.
    As someone who keeps an eye out for potential exploits, the ability to cross-faction and collaborate with others to have your toons pulled one by one into an enemy keep, uncontested, did call for a balance issue.

    Personally, I would have gone for the 'cannot capture a scroll unless at least one outer and one inner wall is down' route, but hey...

    Wasn't this already addressed in the last patch? They said you would be instantly killed if entering an enemy keep you had not broke through the doors on?
  • WebBull
    WebBull
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    Sihnfahl wrote: »
    xaraan wrote: »
    As a victim of being pulled off a keep wall before, I thought this was a great skill as is.
    As someone who keeps an eye out for potential exploits, the ability to cross-faction and collaborate with others to have your toons pulled one by one into an enemy keep, uncontested, did call for a balance issue.

    Personally, I would have gone for the 'cannot capture a scroll unless at least one outer and one inner wall is down' route, but hey...

    This was rarely happening and the entire issue with the spawn camps was poor terrain design and guards not spawning.

    There are other ways they could have changed the skill without nerfing it to uselessness. Heck, even is they changed it so you just cant pull up above a certain height would have been OK. All this did was take some fun and a useful skill out of the game.
  • Daragon
    Daragon
    Yeah, this kinda sucks as DK have no class charge skill this was our only class skill to use to keep from being kited around (unless you're a ranged spec DK - another DK melee nerf then...) or of course unless you sacrifice ultimate to use the leap. Leap can be awesome but its an ultimate which has its own restrictions, other classes all have a charge as part of their class skills (or Bolt Escape which is in its own special uber class).
    - If you've nerfed chains to uselessness give us a standard class skill charge that stuns/ knocks down etc as per the other classes.
  • Samadhi
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    kitsinni wrote: »
    Sihnfahl wrote: »
    xaraan wrote: »
    As a victim of being pulled off a keep wall before, I thought this was a great skill as is.
    As someone who keeps an eye out for potential exploits, the ability to cross-faction and collaborate with others to have your toons pulled one by one into an enemy keep, uncontested, did call for a balance issue.

    Personally, I would have gone for the 'cannot capture a scroll unless at least one outer and one inner wall is down' route, but hey...

    Wasn't this already addressed in the last patch? They said you would be instantly killed if entering an enemy keep you had not broke through the doors on?

    That change only applied to the home base areas in Cyrodiil. Generic Keeps were not impacted by it.
    "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
    Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
  • GaldorP
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    That's weird. For me, this nerf happened a week ago with patch 1.2.4. already. And I was wondering why I saw no reaction to it at all on the forums nor did I get any reply when asking about it in Cyrodiil zone chat :O Pulling careless players down from keep walls and towers at ressources was always one of my favorite activities ^^
  • Obscure
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    Mixed emotions on this one. Sure it was nice to yank people off the walls, but it was exactly the opposite sensation to see people being deliberately pulled over the wall to cap a keep without needing to do any fighting.

    Now that it no longer works for vertical yanks, I think they should functionally change Empowered Chains from additional damage to pull yourself to the target instead of pulling them to you. Always seemed odd that a melee focused skill line allowed the player to pick out single targets at a distance. Granted due to easily abused mechanics such as pulling one self places they aren't intended to go without doing some leg work was a restricting design element, removal of that now opens the door to making Empowered Chains a more interesting option.

    Just food for thought, there's definitely better things for the combat mechanics Dev's to work on with their time...*cough*staminabuilds*cough*
  • Sihnfahl
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    Obscure wrote: »
    Always seemed odd that a melee focused skill line allowed the player to pick out single targets at a distance.
    Not really if you consider the aim behind it was to isolate an opponent in a group.

    DK has the only 'pull to' mechanic. That's a healer killer move. Pull a healer into your group and smack them down, which then puts the opponent group at a disadvantage.
  • Lynx7386
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    Well now dk's know how nightblades feel about "cant jump that high".
    PS4 / NA
    M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
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  • NerfEverything
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    This was a long time coming. We told ZOS way back in beta that not having a Z-axis check on this skill was going to cause some major problems in PvP.

    Glad they finally got around to fixing it.
  • Akhratos
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    Obscure wrote: »
    Always seemed odd that a melee focused skill line allowed the player to pick out single targets at a distance.

    Well, I have never seen a ranged class that would like to pull people in front of them. Unless you use a bow but cant aim, wich would be pretty ridiculous.

    I can only remember melee classes having a pull like this, from Death Knights in WoW, Marauders in Warhammer, DragonKnights in ESO...
  • Obscure
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    Sihnfahl wrote: »
    Obscure wrote: »
    Always seemed odd that a melee focused skill line allowed the player to pick out single targets at a distance.
    Not really if you consider the aim behind it was to isolate an opponent in a group.

    DK has the only 'pull to' mechanic. That's a healer killer move. Pull a healer into your group and smack them down, which then puts the opponent group at a disadvantage.

    I think I may have been unclear. I understand the application and usage, used it myself to do exactly such things as pick out the squishy and...well..squish them (stopped using it for PvE after VR2 or some such level since things didn't respond well to the "squish it" tactic at that level). The oddity I was mentioning is that in an otherwise melee centric skill line it stands out as odd to pick one thing out at a fairly long range rather than jump in on all of them. Take Flight for instance, love the skill, drops the big bad Dragonknight right in the middle of the action. Makes sense in a skill line that supports keeping the DK alive.

    Not that I don't get it, just seems odd. Penguins are odd, but I get them too.
  • OtarTheMad
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    They could have easily just made it where you can't get a scroll or get a keep without an outside and inside wall being down... like someone else said. I understand that people being pulled up was a huge problem and needed to be dealt with but making it so you can't pull down from walls or even a rock or hill just makes the skill useless and basically... deleted it from the game. Any comment by ZOS on this yet?
  • WebBull
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    This was a long time coming. We told ZOS way back in beta that not having a Z-axis check on this skill was going to cause some major problems in PvP.

    Glad they finally got around to fixing it.


    They didn't fix it, they destroyed it.
  • NobleX35
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    So instead of just fixing the real issue they nerf the skill making it completely useless and provide no tactical advantages anymore...brilliant :/
    "Only the dead have seen the end of war."
  • monkeymystic
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    WebBull wrote: »
    You can't pull down from keep walls anymore. You can't pull players up or down from rocks anymore. In some cases you can't even pull players on hillsides.

    Didn't see this nerf in the patch notes. I know it was talked about and still shows up on the under the "patch 1.2.3 known issues" as being tested for "pulling enemies through walls" but yet the nerf went through stopping players from pulling anything higher or lower.

    This was a fun skill that was not overpowered. It would keep ranged players on their toes to be careful from not being pulled down from walls. Once again a fun skill is nerfed and the advantage goes to ranged who can pretty much stand freely now on keep walls.

    Players getting into the Cryodiil spawn areas was due to terrain design and guards not spawning. Not from players being pulled up by Fiery Grip. There was no need for this nerf.

    Pretty much just a PvE skill now.

    Jesus christ.

    Zenimax messed up again...

    They destroy an ability COMPLETELY that is already quite bad and expensive to fix a bug.
    They could have fixed the bug without destroying the ability...


    @zos_ginabruno What's up with destroying the ability and take 5 steps back to fix a bug and go 1 step forward, and without mentioning it in the notes...again?
    Edited by monkeymystic on July 8, 2014 7:18PM
  • murklor007neb18_ESO
    Jesus christ.

    Zenimax messed up again...

    They destroy an ability COMPLETELY that is already quite bad and expensive to fix a bug.
    They could have fixed the bug without destroying the ability...


    @zos_ginabruno What's up with destroying the ability and take 5 steps back to fix a bug and go 1 step forward, and without mentioning it in the notes...again?
    Messed up? How so?

    Its really quite simple. If a class specific ability is "decent" in ESO (such as being able to pull people to you) its going to get nerfed sooner or later. With only 4 classes, in ideal situations there would be 25% of people in the game using the class. Any imbalance is going to be noticable with that high number of people playing the class.

    They've basicly backed themselves into a corner with their own skill system by making it common... And that is why we cant have nice things.
  • NerfEverything
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    Jesus christ.

    Zenimax messed up again...

    They destroy an ability COMPLETELY that is already quite bad and expensive to fix a bug.
    They could have fixed the bug without destroying the ability...


    @zos_ginabruno What's up with destroying the ability and take 5 steps back to fix a bug and go 1 step forward, and without mentioning it in the notes...again?

    Wow, over-react a little more. I didn't realize that adding a Z-axis check, a completely reasonable bug fix, constitutes "completely destroying" and ability.

    I am surprised that you are even still playing DK, since two weeks ago you were complaining that they "completely destroyed" the entire DK class with the balance pass.

    Did you also think that the caltrops ability was "completely destroyed" when they fixed the exploit that was letting it ignore siege damage?

    Did you complain that the economy was "completely destroyed" when they fixed the hireling mail exploit?

    Do you think I "completely destroyed" your quote because I removed the obnoxious formatting?
  • WebBull
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    Jesus christ.

    Zenimax messed up again...

    They destroy an ability COMPLETELY that is already quite bad and expensive to fix a bug.
    They could have fixed the bug without destroying the ability...


    @zos_ginabruno What's up with destroying the ability and take 5 steps back to fix a bug and go 1 step forward, and without mentioning it in the notes...again?

    Wow, over-react a little more. I didn't realize that adding a Z-axis check, a completely reasonable bug fix, constitutes "completely destroying" and ability.

    Yes pretty much completely destroyed. As much as you may like the nerf because it benefits you, it was completely over the top. If you read the entire thread you would have seen that you can't even pull a mob on step slightly higher. Since the majority of the terrain in the game (and certainly PvP) is not flat, the skill is pretty much now useless as no one is going to put it on their bar.

    Also annoying is that the nerf was never even officially documented. Still isn't.
  • FunkyBudda
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    WebBull wrote: »
    Jesus christ.

    Zenimax messed up again...

    They destroy an ability COMPLETELY that is already quite bad and expensive to fix a bug.
    They could have fixed the bug without destroying the ability...


    @zos_ginabruno What's up with destroying the ability and take 5 steps back to fix a bug and go 1 step forward, and without mentioning it in the notes...again?

    Wow, over-react a little more. I didn't realize that adding a Z-axis check, a completely reasonable bug fix, constitutes "completely destroying" and ability.

    Yes pretty much completely destroyed. As much as you may like the nerf because it benefits you, it was completely over the top. If you read the entire thread you would have seen that you can't even pull a mob on step slightly higher. Since the majority of the terrain in the game (and certainly PvP) is not flat, the skill is pretty much now useless as no one is going to put it on their bar.

    Also annoying is that the nerf was never even officially documented. Still isn't.

    as the receiver of the BE nerf, I shed no tears about this nerf. What comes around goes around, nerf on ZOS, nerf on.
  • WebBull
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    FunkyBudda wrote: »
    WebBull wrote: »
    Jesus christ.

    Zenimax messed up again...

    They destroy an ability COMPLETELY that is already quite bad and expensive to fix a bug.
    They could have fixed the bug without destroying the ability...


    @zos_ginabruno What's up with destroying the ability and take 5 steps back to fix a bug and go 1 step forward, and without mentioning it in the notes...again?

    Wow, over-react a little more. I didn't realize that adding a Z-axis check, a completely reasonable bug fix, constitutes "completely destroying" and ability.

    Yes pretty much completely destroyed. As much as you may like the nerf because it benefits you, it was completely over the top. If you read the entire thread you would have seen that you can't even pull a mob on step slightly higher. Since the majority of the terrain in the game (and certainly PvP) is not flat, the skill is pretty much now useless as no one is going to put it on their bar.

    Also annoying is that the nerf was never even officially documented. Still isn't.

    as the receiver of the BE nerf, I shed no tears about this nerf. What comes around goes around, nerf on ZOS, nerf on.

    Pretty immature statement but I realize that goes with the forums.

    Anyway, I am sure you are not shedding any tears in fact you should be ecstatic since no one will be pulling you back when you BE. At least BE is still worthwhile because players still seem to be using it all the time.
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