babylon wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

The only class

Let me stop you right there - sorcerers need crit for their healing. It's built into the class design.

I agree with the idea of changing impenetrable trait to crit damage reduction. This will still allow for the sorcerer to heal in pvp combat.

No, sorcs can still use potions and entropy to heal (entropy is as useful as the nightblade heal funnel health). No one class is designed to have to use one single skill (or should be). Some sorcs just want that huge heal, wouldn't we all.

The class self heal needs to be allowed to function. So you have no point here.

snip change your build.

No you do not have a point. It's not about "changing your build" it's about the class self heal mechanics. Try to keep up.

You can insult me as much as you want, plenty, including me, still disagree with you. My point stands, you are mad because crit surge isn't the answer to everything after someone decided to make use of a trait and you want ZoS to change the game instead of you changing your build. I get it, I just don't agree with you. Thanks for bringing more attention to it though, I'm sure you'll start seeing more and more people using that trait now.

That wasn't an insult, it was a suggestion if you're in a discussion it's polite to address the salient points brought up by the people you're quoting.

Yes my man, it was. C'mon son. Like this is the first time any of us have been in forums. You are getting pissy and saying insulting stuff because your point is being disagreed with. Doesn't mean people don't understand, or they aren't keeping up, they just think you are wrong. Sorry about that, but I don't agree, I said why, you don't agree with me, I get it, that's the way of the world.

Erock25 wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

...You mean to tell me you didn't use Marked Target or Killer's Blade on your NB? ...

Currently:
Sorceror with 7 Impenetrable meets Nightblade with 7 Impenetrable.
Sorceror is healing with Critical Surge, and can't get any heals.
Nightblade is healing with Marked Target and Killer's Blade, and can't get any heals until after the Sorceror is dead.

After your suggested change:
Sorceror with 7 Impenetrable meets Nightblade with 7 Impenetrable.
Sorceror is healing with Critical Surge, and gets heals on over half of their hits.
Nightblade is healing with Marked Target and Killer's Blade, and still can't get any heals until after the Sorceror is dead.

Great comparison, thank you for that.

Funnel Health, Leeching Strikes, Sap Essense, Refreshing Path.

Sorc are forced to use Crit Surge because it is our only option. NB have many options and not one of them is completely negated by armor trait selection.

The options you provided are only good for one specific build of Nightblade.
Leeching Strikes even nerfs all damage in exchange for its mediocre healing.
Funnel Health's effectiveness is mitigated by enemy stats, as well as by an enemy blocking.

Sorceror also has Blood Magic passive and Dark Exchange aside from Critical Surge.
Blood Magic heals for more % than Leeching Strikes.
Dark Exchange "confines" the sorceror to an area in the same way Refreshing Path does for Nightblade.

babylon wrote: »

I'm not going to respond to someone trying to cause offtopic arguments and making things personal, simply reported you.

I have no desire to go off topic, I just think we don't agree. You are getting upset that people disagree, like I said, sorry for that, but that's the way of the world. We disagree. You think I'm "not keeping up" because I disagree. You think sorcs should get a crit heal even when they don't crit, I think it's fine the way it is. Not much more we can say really.

Samadhi wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

...You mean to tell me you didn't use Marked Target or Killer's Blade on your NB? ...

Currently:
Sorceror with 7 Impenetrable meets Nightblade with 7 Impenetrable.
Sorceror is healing with Critical Surge, and can't get any heals.
Nightblade is healing with Marked Target and Killer's Blade, and can't get any heals until after the Sorceror is dead.

After your suggested change:
Sorceror with 7 Impenetrable meets Nightblade with 7 Impenetrable.
Sorceror is healing with Critical Surge, and gets heals on over half of their hits.
Nightblade is healing with Marked Target and Killer's Blade, and still can't get any heals until after the Sorceror is dead.

Great comparison, thank you for that.

Funnel Health, Leeching Strikes, Sap Essense, Refreshing Path.

Sorc are forced to use Crit Surge because it is our only option. NB have many options and not one of them is completely negated by armor trait selection.

The options you provided are only good for one specific build of Nightblade.
Leeching Strikes even nerfs all damage in exchange for its mediocre healing.
Funnel Health's effectiveness is mitigated by enemy stats, as well as by an enemy blocking.

Sorceror also has Blood Magic passive and Dark Exchange aside from Critical Surge.
Blood Magic heals for more % than Leeching Strikes.
Dark Exchange "confines" the sorceror to an area in the same way Refreshing Path does for Nightblade.

I do agree that Sorc and NB are the most similar of all classes in that their self healing is usually side effects of completing another action.

Leeching Strikes is pretty minor and probably not worth the debuff in PVP situations

The point you bring up about Funnel Health (mitigated by enemy stats and blocking) absolutely applies to Critical Surge as well, however.

Blood Magic is there, yes. The thing about Blood Magic is that besides the using it with Negate Magic (which is nice but I don't think we can rely on ultimates for self healing), your only real options in PVP are Encase and Crystal Frag. Encase is super expensive, very buggy, only activates blood magic once no matter how many people you hit, and just isn't a skill you will be using often in PVP. Crystal Frag heals on blood magic are nice but this is a 1.3 second cast if not instant. Basically there is no way to sustain yourself with Blood Magic and no way to spam spells that trigger Blood Magic.

Dark Exchange is nothing like Refreshing Path. A NB can still do whatever he wants while on Refreshing Path while a Sorc sits there channeling.

babylon wrote: »

...
You forgot Killer's Blade and Swallow Soul - the awesome nightblade heals. Guessing you forgot them because they negate everything you said in that post.

Also, Dark Exchange is a channel and is easily interrupted in pvp.

Killer's Blade only heals after killing someone, and only if it is the skill that gets the kill.
If you want a heal that only heals after combat is finished, by all means pump your fist for this one and for Mark Target.

Swallow Soul is just another morph option of Funnel Health, it has the exact same issues I listed for Funnel Health. I didn't forget it, it's just an inferior morph compared to the one I opted to list.

Knockbacks can knock a Nightblade out of Refreshing Path quite easily in PvP too. The heal on Refreshing Path is pathetic, especially in exchange for its cost having to camp a small rectangular area for 10+ seconds.

Erock25 wrote: »

...
I do agree that Sorc and NB are the most similar of all classes in that their self healing is usually side effects of completing another action.

Leeching Strikes is pretty minor and probably not worth the debuff in PVP situations

The point you bring up about Funnel Health (mitigated by enemy stats and blocking) absolutely applies to Critical Surge as well, however.

Blood Magic is there, yes. The thing about Blood Magic is that besides the using it with Negate Magic (which is nice but I don't think we can rely on ultimates for self healing), your only real options in PVP are Encase and Crystal Frag. Encase is super expensive, very buggy, only activates blood magic once no matter how many people you hit, and just isn't a skill you will be using often in PVP. Crystal Frag heals on blood magic are nice but this is a 1.3 second cast if not instant. Basically there is no way to sustain yourself with Blood Magic and no way to spam spells that trigger Blood Magic.

Dark Exchange is nothing like Refreshing Path. A NB can still do whatever he wants while on Refreshing Path while a Sorc sits there channeling.

I brought up those examples to show you how it is on similar ground, so I am glad you could see that part.

Blood Magic procs only on certain skills; Leeching Strikes heals for less, except benefits from being applied to all skills -- it comes at the price of reducing all damage though.

Refreshing Path confines a Nightblade to an area too small to escape damage in, and that they can be knocked out of. It's not "the same" as Dark Exchange, but it's still entirely impractical.
It also only heals for 39 points per tick on a full Magicka build, meaning that a Nightblade has to stand in a small rectangle for 10 seconds to heal around 400 health. It might be viable to chain-cast while running away from combat though.

Funnel Health is Nightblade's best heal, and the only one I have ever considered viable in PvP. It's only decent in one build setup though, and it is mitigated by enemy stats and blocking as noted.

babylon wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Leeching Strikes...Refreshing Path...Funnel Health...Killer's Blade...Swallow Soul

All tons of ways to heal which can't be negated by using one simple trait on armour.

Nor can Blood Magic passive or Dark Exchange for Sorcerors.

I guess you'll just be forced to use Restro staff to heal, which also happens to be the best way for you to do damage as well.

poor you.

Erock25 wrote: »

...
So what does this comparison leave us with? Removing all of the weak/bad/limited self heals, Sorc has Crit Surge and NB has Reaper's Mark, Killer's Blade, and Funnel Health. With how PVP meta is going with the Impenetrable trait usage, Crit Surge can be removed from the equation with leaves Sorc with no viable heals while NB still has some. Even if we remove the 'upon death' health gains (which I think is ridiculous considering PVP is rarely just against one target), NB has Funnel Health is still viable while Sorc has nothing.

If you want to count the on-death ones because of group PvP, then Nightblade is far better benefiting from having a Healer in the group and using Impale morph rather than Killer's Blade. Building for DPS as opposed to sustain in such a scenario makes perfect sense.
Funnel Health is great when on the off-healer build; however, changing Impenetrable to reduce crit damage instead of crit rate would pigeon-hole all Nightblades into that build unless the class was otherwise tweaked to account for the change. ZOS hasn't even gotten Nightblades updated as promised in the first place.

I like the current programming of Impenetrable. If I wanted to see anything changed it would be an increase to the benefits of other armour traits so that there is less reason for people to stack a single stat.

babylon wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Leeching Strikes...Refreshing Path...Funnel Health...Killer's Blade...Swallow Soul

All tons of ways to heal which can't be negated by using one simple trait on armour.

Nor can Blood Magic passive or Dark Exchange for Sorcerors.

Blood magic is a very tiny heal, and situational. Dark Exchange is easily interrupted on pvp. The nightblade heals run constantly and are not negated by armour traits.

Leeching Strikes is programmed for only 2% Health return, and also nerfs both Spell and Weapon damage.
Refreshing Path can have the Nightblade CC'd out of it -- Path heals Health for less than the damage of a single hit, over a duration of 10+ seconds.
The best Nightblade heal is Funnel Health -- this heal is mitigated by enemy spell resistance, enemy crit resistance, enemy buffs, as well as by the enemy blocking.

Erock25 wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I guess you'll just be forced to use Restro staff to heal, which also happens to be the best way for you to do damage as well.

poor you.

Well this is what made me bring this topic up. I much prefer running with Destro for Crushing Shock and 1h&s for Absorb Magic and Invasion (well actually I prefer running with 2h and bow but that's a whole other topic). I don't want to be forced to use Resto staff to have a heal but I am forced to because of the complete over power nature of the impenetrable trait.

and I'm forced to run impenetrable trait, because its incredibly easy to hit 40%+ in crit in this game.

Erock25 wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I guess you'll just be forced to use Restro staff to heal, which also happens to be the best way for you to do damage as well.

poor you.

Well this is what made me bring this topic up. I much prefer running with Destro for Crushing Shock and 1h&s for Absorb Magic and Invasion (well actually I prefer running with 2h and bow but that's a whole other topic). I don't want to be forced to use Resto staff to have a heal but I am forced to because of the complete over power nature of the impenetrable trait.

I won't call it a solution, but I think you are forgetting that you could also bring a healer with you since we aren't talking about 1v1 pvp.

Lynx7386 wrote: »

I disagree. Currently time to kill/time to live in pvp is WAY off. Players are killing one another in seconds, which allows zero time to adapt to your enemy's abilities or tactics and creates extremely bland pvp.

The longer a fight lasts, the more chances skill can become a major factor in the outcome. You can be an extremely skilled player, but if someone's damage output is so insanely high that you only last for 2-3 seconds once the fight begins, your skill is not going to factor in. The player with that quick kill time also probably isnt relying on skill so much as a raw stat advantage over you.

There's been a steadily decreasing kill time in MMO's since the 'good old days' of the genre. Everything has gone from calculated, drawn out battles to instant gratification. In most games you dont even have to spend time -looking- for your opponent anymore, world pvp has taken backstage to queue-up battleground and arena esport systems.




Keep impenetrable as it is, and make the other traits more powerful so that they are on equal footing. Change reinforced from extra armor to extra damage reduction. Change defending to overall damage reduction. Make some of the weapon and armor traits do things like return resources (health/magicka/stamina) to increase your survival time.

Winning a pvp match should not be about how much crit chance you've managed to stack together, it should be about how good you are at avoiding your enemy's attacks, interrupting their spells, managing your resources, and getting your own attacks to land.

Yeah but my proposed change would have impenetrable basically mitigating the same amount of damage. I swear no one reads.

Poor traits have already been hit hard enough by the nerf bat. They nerf them any more and crafted armor won't be worth crafting.