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Kicked from pug trial group for my playstyle...
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Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »People it is not "better" or "elitist" or "us vs them" it is simple math and reasoning skills.
Spec A provides a cap of 500 dps
Spec B provides a cap of 800 dps
Encounter needs a minimum of 700 dps
There is your math now for the reasoning part
If spec A is below 700 and spec B is above 700 I will reason that spec B will work and spec A won't.
No elitism, no us vs. them its just basic math.
The people who understand this and work with it instead of banging their heads against the wall and screaming about it are not the ones at fault.
The goal is fun, not numbers or how fast you can level by farming some unchallenging mobs. Your 'reasoning' missed the very first reason...
Yes the goal is fun, but your fun and my fun are different.
My fun is not carrying you and your inefficient build through 20 wipes in Aetherian Archives and then having to grind for an hour to cover the cost of the repairs.
You missed your own reason
Trust me, you would not be carrying me...
My build changes day to day, situation to situation and I leveled up all but bow and two-hander. And the best part is, I figured it out on my own rather than depending on someone to tell me how to do it best, like most 'elites'. I also have the reaction time and situational awareness that comes from lots and lots of pvp. But do you know what I would do if presented with an inexperienced player with a sub-optimal build in my squad? I step up to the challenge and carry them, because its challenging and fun. The easy way out is to kick them...you like things easy I am guessing...
At any rate, I do agree not everyone's fun is the same. But excluding people from groups because their build does not jive with something you read on the forums as being the optimal build, is true douchebaggery and is why I mock 'elitists' every chance I get.
That's good for you, but you need to stop making assumptions and generalisations about other people.
First off, that was a pug group, so far from elitists. Also most of the people that you call elites, would reject that term precisely for the bad connotations, and the negative label you are attaching on them does not match the behaviour (see OP).
Secondly you are assuming that most of them have been told how to do it best, while your good self has experimented his way to an efficient build. In my experience most good players are very keen theorycrafters, testers and competitive players. That's a completely unfounded claim you make.
Finally you ignore the fact that the raid a) allowed him into the team with 2H Sword + Plate and b) that the team wiped a few times before he took action. While you might think that you could have raised your game to carry that guy that's not always possible in a 12-man pug group.
Again, he didn't exclude anybody like you suggest, but kicked him because the team kept wiping, not because he didn't like the cut of the OPs jib.Edited by Maulkin on July 8, 2014 4:16PMEU | PC | AD3 -
kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »People it is not "better" or "elitist" or "us vs them" it is simple math and reasoning skills.
Spec A provides a cap of 500 dps
Spec B provides a cap of 800 dps
Encounter needs a minimum of 700 dps
There is your math now for the reasoning part
If spec A is below 700 and spec B is above 700 I will reason that spec B will work and spec A won't.
No elitism, no us vs. them its just basic math.
The people who understand this and work with it instead of banging their heads against the wall and screaming about it are not the ones at fault.
The goal is fun, not numbers or how fast you can level by farming some unchallenging mobs. Your 'reasoning' missed the very first reason...
Yes the goal is fun, but your fun and my fun are different.
My fun is not carrying you and your inefficient build through 20 wipes in Aetherian Archives and then having to grind for an hour to cover the cost of the repairs.
You missed your own reason
Trust me, you would not be carrying me...
My build changes day to day, situation to situation and I leveled up all but bow and two-hander. And the best part is, I figured it out on my own rather than depending on someone to tell me how to do it best, like most 'elites'. I also have the reaction time and situational awareness that comes from lots and lots of pvp. But do you know what I would do if presented with an inexperienced player with a sub-optimal build in my squad? I step up to the challenge and carry them, because its challenging and fun. The easy way out is to kick them...you like things easy I am guessing...
At any rate, I do agree not everyone's fun is the same. But excluding people from groups because their build does not jive with something you read on the forums as being the optimal build, is true douchebaggery and is why I mock 'elitists' every chance I get.
Reread your own post for the real definition of elitist. Really of everything said here and posted on these forums you are the only real elitist I see.6 -
Night_Watch✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Night_Watch wrote: »The trap (think category) of making certain play styles undesirable by certain types of player and thus creating a 'them and us' sort of mentality were the 'them' are the undesirables and the us are the uber lords of the playground (I do not mean this in a derogatory way). More often than not, this trap also leads to players that a have genuine superiority complex - they may not be as superior to others as they imply but they truly think they are. Inevitably this leads to a certain degree of real or perceived eletism.
Edit: crossed some 'i's dotted some 't's!
What a load of nonsense. Do you have any facts to back up your claims that most good players have a superiority complex? Did you see that sort of behaviour/language from the raid leader in the screenshot provided?
All players that have completed the trials with respectable times have gone through the same reality checks as the one the raid leader is trying to impart on the OP.
Namely that for high DPS you need to have light armour and staff, you need to build high spell crit & spell dmg, you need to animation cancel to increase your DPS, you need to stack DoTs where possible for faster ultie generation.
That's the order of things, until ZOS changes it. You either accept it as reality and adjust, or you blame everyone else calling them elitists with superiority complexes and all that bull.
My post was reasonable and the part you cherry picked to quote is not nonsense.
Please read the whole post and take it in context. I referred to most games in general not specifically. Further more, you twist my words. I did not claim that 'most good players have a superiority complex'. The 'leads to players that a have' text could be changed to 'leads to some players that seem to a have' (have a - oops!) for those that otherways misunderstand - fair enough have a brownie point [:)]. Thing is, I still did not mention wether a player is good, bad or ugly! It is a simple fact that some players do seem to behave in an elitist or (overly) superior manner (in many games).
It still remains true that people in all walks of live, including gaming, do get all 'superior' to others wether they truly are or truly are not - this is a fact I do not need to prove as it can be easily seen by just about anyone.
Did I see that sort of behaviour/language from the raid leader in the screenshot provided? I never said so much but I can see how you may have misunderstood that I inferred it. This was not my intent. Again, I would ask you read the whole post and take it in context.
With regard to 'All players that have completed the trials ... possible for faster ultie generation.', I cannot argue the point. This just reinforces what you, me and others point out; 'That's the order of things, until ZOS changes it'. I fully agree with you on that (latter) fact. I also agree that players have no choice than to 'either accept it as reality and adjust'. This though has no regard for those that wish to 'Play as you like'.
As for 'you blame everyone else calling them elitists with superiority complexes and all that bull'. NO! I did not call anyone elitist. What I wrote was 'Inevitably this leads to a certain degree of real or perceived eletism'. This is not the same as calling any one person or group of people elitist. To rephrase something written earlier; It still remains true that people in all walks of live, including gaming, do get all 'elitist' to others wether they truly are or truly are not - this is a fact I do not need to prove. I have already argued the superiority idea. I do not 'blame' anyone at all either.
When I wrote my original post I was, maybe, just a little too over generalist. However, turning a generalist comment into a comment that is specific, twisting the meaning of what is written and deliberately trying to make out that what was written is nonsense or 'bull' is really not constructive.
Let's keep this pleasant. You stick to your guns, I'll stick to mine and if we disagree then so be it. There is no need for all out hostility.
Enjoy your game everyone.
Edit: no real change just a tidy up.Edited by Night_Watch on July 8, 2014 4:38PM"If there is an underlying oneness of all things, it does not matter where we begin, whether with stars, or laws of supply and demand, or frogs, or Napoleon Bonaparte. One measures a circle, beginning anywhere."
Charles Fort - Lo! (1931)1 -
Bramir✭✭✭✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »People it is not "better" or "elitist" or "us vs them" it is simple math and reasoning skills.
Spec A provides a cap of 500 dps
Spec B provides a cap of 800 dps
Encounter needs a minimum of 700 dps
There is your math now for the reasoning part
If spec A is below 700 and spec B is above 700 I will reason that spec B will work and spec A won't.
No elitism, no us vs. them its just basic math.
The people who understand this and work with it instead of banging their heads against the wall and screaming about it are not the ones at fault.
The goal is fun, not numbers or how fast you can level by farming some unchallenging mobs. Your 'reasoning' missed the very first reason...
Yes the goal is fun, but your fun and my fun are different.
My fun is not carrying you and your inefficient build through 20 wipes in Aetherian Archives and then having to grind for an hour to cover the cost of the repairs.
You missed your own reason
At any rate, I do agree not everyone's fun is the same. But excluding people from groups because their build does not jive with something you read on the forums as being the optimal build, is true douchebaggery and is why I mock 'elitists' every chance I get.
The number of people who would kick you because of what builds they read worked on the forums is very minimal in the wild. They can and will kick you though because they simply cannot do the Trial with your weight on them. In the end, whether you agree with them or not it is *their* group. You are welcome to form your own and play with people who enjoy a playstyle more similar to your own and actually I would encourage people to do so because they tend to have more fun when playing with people they relate with. Social activity is good!
However, yelling on the forums to "mock elitists" is self-contradictory... you are stating you hate "elitists" you disagree with (aka people who play well and want to do well) being "rude" but then are "rude" to people you disagree with yourself.
So you are saying everyone figured out what these 'optimal' builds are on their own? Kind of doubt it.
Elitist is not defined as someone who plays well and wants to do well. Look it up...it has everything to do with how they treat others. Many extraordinary players are not elitists...many average players are elitists, and honestly have no business criticizing other average players who haven't been instructed on optimizing their toon. An elitist who is actually elite is one thing...the vast majority of elitists are not elite and shouldn't try to act like they are by doing things like kicking players with suboptimal builds.
If you think most squad leaders doing pve content aren't getting their 'truth' from something they read, I'm not even sure what to say. Only a few posted the information themselves...the rest read it...
6 -
MeowGinger✭✭✭What? I see people blaming yesterday's patch. This has nothing to do with the veteran alliance nerf. Things have been like this since Craglorn came out... and a month or so ago, I saw people advertising in zone chat "LFM trials, no NBs/temps"2
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Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »People it is not "better" or "elitist" or "us vs them" it is simple math and reasoning skills.
Spec A provides a cap of 500 dps
Spec B provides a cap of 800 dps
Encounter needs a minimum of 700 dps
There is your math now for the reasoning part
If spec A is below 700 and spec B is above 700 I will reason that spec B will work and spec A won't.
No elitism, no us vs. them its just basic math.
The people who understand this and work with it instead of banging their heads against the wall and screaming about it are not the ones at fault.
The goal is fun, not numbers or how fast you can level by farming some unchallenging mobs. Your 'reasoning' missed the very first reason...
Yes the goal is fun, but your fun and my fun are different.
My fun is not carrying you and your inefficient build through 20 wipes in Aetherian Archives and then having to grind for an hour to cover the cost of the repairs.
You missed your own reason
At any rate, I do agree not everyone's fun is the same. But excluding people from groups because their build does not jive with something you read on the forums as being the optimal build, is true douchebaggery and is why I mock 'elitists' every chance I get.
The number of people who would kick you because of what builds they read worked on the forums is very minimal in the wild. They can and will kick you though because they simply cannot do the Trial with your weight on them. In the end, whether you agree with them or not it is *their* group. You are welcome to form your own and play with people who enjoy a playstyle more similar to your own and actually I would encourage people to do so because they tend to have more fun when playing with people they relate with. Social activity is good!
However, yelling on the forums to "mock elitists" is self-contradictory... you are stating you hate "elitists" you disagree with (aka people who play well and want to do well) being "rude" but then are "rude" to people you disagree with yourself.
So you are saying everyone figured out what these 'optimal' builds are on their own? Kind of doubt it.
Elitist is not defined as someone who plays well and wants to do well. Look it up...it has everything to do with how they treat others. Many extraordinary players are not elitists...many average players are elitists, and honestly have no business criticizing other average players who haven't been instructed on optimizing their toon. An elitist who is actually elite is one thing...the vast majority of elitists are not elite and shouldn't try to act like they are by doing things like kicking players with suboptimal builds.
If you think most squad leaders doing pve content aren't getting their 'truth' from something they read, I'm not even sure what to say. Only a few posted the information themselves...the rest read it...
And what on earth has all that got to do with the OP and the situation described there?EU | PC | AD3 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭This scenario is only going to become more common since the VR nerf. You're going to have people getting through VR content without really learning how to play an optimal build or how to adjust their builds for group content.
Don't blame other people because they don't want to carry you. Unfortunately, wearing heavy armor and wielding a 2h in trials would most likely mean they'd have to carry you. You might be the exception, but many won't be.
This comes down to the mechanics of the trials and not really the group leaders. These trials require very specific tactics and certain classes/builds just don't fit. This is a development issue.
************"This is a development issue.*************
Yep, its on Zeni's plate.
Edited by Anastasia on July 8, 2014 4:23PM3 -
kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »People it is not "better" or "elitist" or "us vs them" it is simple math and reasoning skills.
Spec A provides a cap of 500 dps
Spec B provides a cap of 800 dps
Encounter needs a minimum of 700 dps
There is your math now for the reasoning part
If spec A is below 700 and spec B is above 700 I will reason that spec B will work and spec A won't.
No elitism, no us vs. them its just basic math.
The people who understand this and work with it instead of banging their heads against the wall and screaming about it are not the ones at fault.
The goal is fun, not numbers or how fast you can level by farming some unchallenging mobs. Your 'reasoning' missed the very first reason...
Yes the goal is fun, but your fun and my fun are different.
My fun is not carrying you and your inefficient build through 20 wipes in Aetherian Archives and then having to grind for an hour to cover the cost of the repairs.
You missed your own reason
At any rate, I do agree not everyone's fun is the same. But excluding people from groups because their build does not jive with something you read on the forums as being the optimal build, is true douchebaggery and is why I mock 'elitists' every chance I get.
The number of people who would kick you because of what builds they read worked on the forums is very minimal in the wild. They can and will kick you though because they simply cannot do the Trial with your weight on them. In the end, whether you agree with them or not it is *their* group. You are welcome to form your own and play with people who enjoy a playstyle more similar to your own and actually I would encourage people to do so because they tend to have more fun when playing with people they relate with. Social activity is good!
However, yelling on the forums to "mock elitists" is self-contradictory... you are stating you hate "elitists" you disagree with (aka people who play well and want to do well) being "rude" but then are "rude" to people you disagree with yourself.
So you are saying everyone figured out what these 'optimal' builds are on their own? Kind of doubt it.
Elitist is not defined as someone who plays well and wants to do well. Look it up...it has everything to do with how they treat others. Many extraordinary players are not elitists...many average players are elitists, and honestly have no business criticizing other average players who haven't been instructed on optimizing their toon. An elitist who is actually elite is one thing...the vast majority of elitists are not elite and shouldn't try to act like they are by doing things like kicking players with suboptimal builds.
If you think most squad leaders doing pve content aren't getting their 'truth' from something they read, I'm not even sure what to say. Only a few posted the information themselves...the rest read it...
You are just making up definitions of what elite and elitist are to fit your agrument.
Show us how elite you are and post a video of doing the trials and pullign 800+ dps with 2 hand and Heavy Armor .. don't base it on "those stupid elitist jerks who spend time on the forums" base it on whatever you like and post the video.
.. one would thik we are actually on a forum ..1 -
Bramir✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »People it is not "better" or "elitist" or "us vs them" it is simple math and reasoning skills.
Spec A provides a cap of 500 dps
Spec B provides a cap of 800 dps
Encounter needs a minimum of 700 dps
There is your math now for the reasoning part
If spec A is below 700 and spec B is above 700 I will reason that spec B will work and spec A won't.
No elitism, no us vs. them its just basic math.
The people who understand this and work with it instead of banging their heads against the wall and screaming about it are not the ones at fault.
The goal is fun, not numbers or how fast you can level by farming some unchallenging mobs. Your 'reasoning' missed the very first reason...
Yes the goal is fun, but your fun and my fun are different.
My fun is not carrying you and your inefficient build through 20 wipes in Aetherian Archives and then having to grind for an hour to cover the cost of the repairs.
You missed your own reason
Trust me, you would not be carrying me...
My build changes day to day, situation to situation and I leveled up all but bow and two-hander. And the best part is, I figured it out on my own rather than depending on someone to tell me how to do it best, like most 'elites'. I also have the reaction time and situational awareness that comes from lots and lots of pvp. But do you know what I would do if presented with an inexperienced player with a sub-optimal build in my squad? I step up to the challenge and carry them, because its challenging and fun. The easy way out is to kick them...you like things easy I am guessing...
At any rate, I do agree not everyone's fun is the same. But excluding people from groups because their build does not jive with something you read on the forums as being the optimal build, is true douchebaggery and is why I mock 'elitists' every chance I get.
Reread your own post for the real definition of elitist. Really of everything said here and posted on these forums you are the only real elitist I see.
Yes, elitists are known for trying their best to carry other players who may be struggling with the content being done, even to the point of wiping repeatedly. Hopefully I don't need to point out the sarcasm...
I outlined my 'skills', because I wanted to make it clear that I don't personally get kicked from squads. I am anti-elitist because I don't like people who treat others like crap in a game, not because I have been personally treated like that. I've been bullying bullies since grade school because I feel a moral obligation to do so. MMO bullies are one of my favorite targets because they are so 'brave' when they don't have to show their faces...
3 -
Evandus✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »People it is not "better" or "elitist" or "us vs them" it is simple math and reasoning skills.
Spec A provides a cap of 500 dps
Spec B provides a cap of 800 dps
Encounter needs a minimum of 700 dps
There is your math now for the reasoning part
If spec A is below 700 and spec B is above 700 I will reason that spec B will work and spec A won't.
No elitism, no us vs. them its just basic math.
The people who understand this and work with it instead of banging their heads against the wall and screaming about it are not the ones at fault.
The goal is fun, not numbers or how fast you can level by farming some unchallenging mobs. Your 'reasoning' missed the very first reason...
Yes the goal is fun, but your fun and my fun are different.
My fun is not carrying you and your inefficient build through 20 wipes in Aetherian Archives and then having to grind for an hour to cover the cost of the repairs.
You missed your own reason
Trust me, you would not be carrying me...
My build changes day to day, situation to situation and I leveled up all but bow and two-hander. And the best part is, I figured it out on my own rather than depending on someone to tell me how to do it best, like most 'elites'. I also have the reaction time and situational awareness that comes from lots and lots of pvp. But do you know what I would do if presented with an inexperienced player with a sub-optimal build in my squad? I step up to the challenge and carry them, because its challenging and fun. The easy way out is to kick them...you like things easy I am guessing...
At any rate, I do agree not everyone's fun is the same. But excluding people from groups because their build does not jive with something you read on the forums as being the optimal build, is true douchebaggery and is why I mock 'elitists' every chance I get.
Reread your own post for the real definition of elitist. Really of everything said here and posted on these forums you are the only real elitist I see.
Yes, elitists are known for trying their best to carry other players who may be struggling with the content being done, even to the point of wiping repeatedly. Hopefully I don't need to point out the sarcasm...
I outlined my 'skills', because I wanted to make it clear that I don't personally get kicked from squads. I am anti-elitist because I don't like people who treat others like crap in a game, not because I have been personally treated like that. I've been bullying bullies since grade school because I feel a moral obligation to do so. MMO bullies are one of my favorite targets because they are so 'brave' when they don't have to show their faces...
And yet, none of that has happened within the interaction the OP shares with us. Do you not see how that makes you off topic and disruptive to the discussion?4 -
Bramir✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Attorneyatlawl wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »People it is not "better" or "elitist" or "us vs them" it is simple math and reasoning skills.
Spec A provides a cap of 500 dps
Spec B provides a cap of 800 dps
Encounter needs a minimum of 700 dps
There is your math now for the reasoning part
If spec A is below 700 and spec B is above 700 I will reason that spec B will work and spec A won't.
No elitism, no us vs. them its just basic math.
The people who understand this and work with it instead of banging their heads against the wall and screaming about it are not the ones at fault.
The goal is fun, not numbers or how fast you can level by farming some unchallenging mobs. Your 'reasoning' missed the very first reason...
Yes the goal is fun, but your fun and my fun are different.
My fun is not carrying you and your inefficient build through 20 wipes in Aetherian Archives and then having to grind for an hour to cover the cost of the repairs.
You missed your own reason
At any rate, I do agree not everyone's fun is the same. But excluding people from groups because their build does not jive with something you read on the forums as being the optimal build, is true douchebaggery and is why I mock 'elitists' every chance I get.
The number of people who would kick you because of what builds they read worked on the forums is very minimal in the wild. They can and will kick you though because they simply cannot do the Trial with your weight on them. In the end, whether you agree with them or not it is *their* group. You are welcome to form your own and play with people who enjoy a playstyle more similar to your own and actually I would encourage people to do so because they tend to have more fun when playing with people they relate with. Social activity is good!
However, yelling on the forums to "mock elitists" is self-contradictory... you are stating you hate "elitists" you disagree with (aka people who play well and want to do well) being "rude" but then are "rude" to people you disagree with yourself.
So you are saying everyone figured out what these 'optimal' builds are on their own? Kind of doubt it.
Elitist is not defined as someone who plays well and wants to do well. Look it up...it has everything to do with how they treat others. Many extraordinary players are not elitists...many average players are elitists, and honestly have no business criticizing other average players who haven't been instructed on optimizing their toon. An elitist who is actually elite is one thing...the vast majority of elitists are not elite and shouldn't try to act like they are by doing things like kicking players with suboptimal builds.
If you think most squad leaders doing pve content aren't getting their 'truth' from something they read, I'm not even sure what to say. Only a few posted the information themselves...the rest read it...
And what on earth has all that got to do with the OP and the situation described there?
The OP was kicked from a PUG by what was probably an average player who read about optimal builds on a website. Instead of assessing the entire situation, they blamed everything on one dps who didn't dress the same as them...bet they wiped some more since one dps does not make or break a raid.
4 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »This is one of the prime issues with 'end game' PvE in any game. Raid groups players can be so hateful and close-minded. Really, some of the worst in gaming, period.
In PvP they call you a noob and kill you, but in reality, they NEED you to play cause your participation is vital to what PvP is. PvP is all about players playing together.
Competitive PvE, on the other hand, seems to support this type of player too much. They don't want to play *with* you, cause you're not optimal enough.
This is why I will generally only do raids with known groups, and will ignore that community and their opinion outright. I don't think their breed of min-maxing helps the game, or the playerbase, at all. They spend so much time complaining about class balance and optimal builds and NPC layout/mechanics, trying to get the game changed over and over again for 1% of the overall content.
Good luck, Op. Do like me. Don't pug. Don't listen to raiders. And don't let their dirty superiority complex bring you down. PvP instead. We love to have you! (maybe on the opposing team, but still!)
**They don't want to play *with* you, cause you're not optimal enough.**
That is not the case in every pug. It is what is needed for that content. The goal for that particular content is optimal group support for a timed best score run.
If you'd just enjoy soloing in these new easier V+ 1-10 areas, that may be one good choice. If you'd like to set goals and get yourself into a good position to enjoy competing with others for best time/trials, well, now you have a few tips to get you started on what is necessary for you to be sought after for that content.
These bars are now set because of the way the developers designed base-class mechanics and stam - ratio in addition to crit, resists etc. in TESO. It may change in times to come, but for now, it is what it is because that is how ZOS wanted it, not because other players are meanies.
Senior players should def be respectful and when possible take the time to explain/help/teach which change-ups might benefit a person whose spec doesn't facilitate optimal results. Sometimes they do, sometimes they reveal their azz-hol-itis.
You most probably want to have friends or guildies supplement your own research and practice time into what will help a team/group the most if you are interested in participating in the most competitive parts of endgame of course, as total strangers in a pick up group may vary in quality of human kindness, or just plain don't have the time to help at that point. Many will tell you to contact them later for some additional help though.
In the op's case it doesn't look like they were terribly rude to her/him; just shared the details of what was needed for that content. Another idea is to find a few other people who are just at that crux, wanting to do that sort of content but not yet ready. Then you can all support and help each other putting together needed armor, weapons, discussing stats, practicing and then you too can head into that content, competing to win.
Edited by Anastasia on July 8, 2014 4:47PM3 -
Evandus✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Attorneyatlawl wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »People it is not "better" or "elitist" or "us vs them" it is simple math and reasoning skills.
Spec A provides a cap of 500 dps
Spec B provides a cap of 800 dps
Encounter needs a minimum of 700 dps
There is your math now for the reasoning part
If spec A is below 700 and spec B is above 700 I will reason that spec B will work and spec A won't.
No elitism, no us vs. them its just basic math.
The people who understand this and work with it instead of banging their heads against the wall and screaming about it are not the ones at fault.
The goal is fun, not numbers or how fast you can level by farming some unchallenging mobs. Your 'reasoning' missed the very first reason...
Yes the goal is fun, but your fun and my fun are different.
My fun is not carrying you and your inefficient build through 20 wipes in Aetherian Archives and then having to grind for an hour to cover the cost of the repairs.
You missed your own reason
At any rate, I do agree not everyone's fun is the same. But excluding people from groups because their build does not jive with something you read on the forums as being the optimal build, is true douchebaggery and is why I mock 'elitists' every chance I get.
The number of people who would kick you because of what builds they read worked on the forums is very minimal in the wild. They can and will kick you though because they simply cannot do the Trial with your weight on them. In the end, whether you agree with them or not it is *their* group. You are welcome to form your own and play with people who enjoy a playstyle more similar to your own and actually I would encourage people to do so because they tend to have more fun when playing with people they relate with. Social activity is good!
However, yelling on the forums to "mock elitists" is self-contradictory... you are stating you hate "elitists" you disagree with (aka people who play well and want to do well) being "rude" but then are "rude" to people you disagree with yourself.
So you are saying everyone figured out what these 'optimal' builds are on their own? Kind of doubt it.
Elitist is not defined as someone who plays well and wants to do well. Look it up...it has everything to do with how they treat others. Many extraordinary players are not elitists...many average players are elitists, and honestly have no business criticizing other average players who haven't been instructed on optimizing their toon. An elitist who is actually elite is one thing...the vast majority of elitists are not elite and shouldn't try to act like they are by doing things like kicking players with suboptimal builds.
If you think most squad leaders doing pve content aren't getting their 'truth' from something they read, I'm not even sure what to say. Only a few posted the information themselves...the rest read it...
And what on earth has all that got to do with the OP and the situation described there?
The OP was kicked from a PUG by what was probably an average player who read about optimal builds on a website. Instead of assessing the entire situation, they blamed everything on one dps who didn't dress the same as them...bet they wiped some more since one dps does not make or break a raid.
Completely mistaken you are...
Let's try this one instead: The OP was kicked from a pug group willing to run with him because he could not contribute in a fight where sustained high dps is required.
5 -
Mordria✭✭✭✭
Well this is disappointing, I've only attempted trials a few times, and I say attempted because people kept going offline etc, but today was more annoying because I found a good group, but they kicked me for wearing heavy armor + 2h (dps) after we wiped on the 3rd boss.
This was a pug group. The leader was asking for people in zone chat. This wasn't a guild run or world ranking world first or whatever. This was a casual pug group.
I'm not blaming the group leader, he wanted to complete the trial. But now I'm forced to choose a certain playstyle.
Nice one Zenimax, for being excluded because i'm not allowed to play the way I want.
Wow... what a tool. Play the way you want I say. Unfortunately you're going to run into people like this in the game.
Edited by Mordria on July 8, 2014 4:41PM0 -
Bramir✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »People it is not "better" or "elitist" or "us vs them" it is simple math and reasoning skills.
Spec A provides a cap of 500 dps
Spec B provides a cap of 800 dps
Encounter needs a minimum of 700 dps
There is your math now for the reasoning part
If spec A is below 700 and spec B is above 700 I will reason that spec B will work and spec A won't.
No elitism, no us vs. them its just basic math.
The people who understand this and work with it instead of banging their heads against the wall and screaming about it are not the ones at fault.
The goal is fun, not numbers or how fast you can level by farming some unchallenging mobs. Your 'reasoning' missed the very first reason...
Yes the goal is fun, but your fun and my fun are different.
My fun is not carrying you and your inefficient build through 20 wipes in Aetherian Archives and then having to grind for an hour to cover the cost of the repairs.
You missed your own reason
Trust me, you would not be carrying me...
My build changes day to day, situation to situation and I leveled up all but bow and two-hander. And the best part is, I figured it out on my own rather than depending on someone to tell me how to do it best, like most 'elites'. I also have the reaction time and situational awareness that comes from lots and lots of pvp. But do you know what I would do if presented with an inexperienced player with a sub-optimal build in my squad? I step up to the challenge and carry them, because its challenging and fun. The easy way out is to kick them...you like things easy I am guessing...
At any rate, I do agree not everyone's fun is the same. But excluding people from groups because their build does not jive with something you read on the forums as being the optimal build, is true douchebaggery and is why I mock 'elitists' every chance I get.
Reread your own post for the real definition of elitist. Really of everything said here and posted on these forums you are the only real elitist I see.
Yes, elitists are known for trying their best to carry other players who may be struggling with the content being done, even to the point of wiping repeatedly. Hopefully I don't need to point out the sarcasm...
I outlined my 'skills', because I wanted to make it clear that I don't personally get kicked from squads. I am anti-elitist because I don't like people who treat others like crap in a game, not because I have been personally treated like that. I've been bullying bullies since grade school because I feel a moral obligation to do so. MMO bullies are one of my favorite targets because they are so 'brave' when they don't have to show their faces...
And yet, none of that has happened within the interaction the OP shares with us. Do you not see how that makes you off topic and disruptive to the discussion?
Disruptive, yes, if you mean providing a counter to everyone saying use a *** restro/destro or gtfo.
Off-topic, no.
2 -
vyndral13preub18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭This thread has taken a strange turn that has nothing to do with the OP anymore. But it sure is fun to watch.1 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
...
"stamina build is good only on nb with daggers atm"
You didn't get kicked for having a "bad" build; you got kicked because that player is an idiot."If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
2 -
Vuron✭✭✭✭✭
Well this is disappointing, I've only attempted trials a few times, and I say attempted because people kept going offline etc, but today was more annoying because I found a good group, but they kicked me for wearing heavy armor + 2h (dps) after we wiped on the 3rd boss.
This was a pug group. The leader was asking for people in zone chat. This wasn't a guild run or world ranking world first or whatever. This was a casual pug group.
I'm not blaming the group leader, he wanted to complete the trial. But now I'm forced to choose a certain playstyle.
Nice one Zenimax, for being excluded because i'm not allowed to play the way I want.
Wow... what a tool. Play the way you want I say. Unfortunately you're going to run into people like this in the game.
Welcome to the thread and thank you for not bothering to read the other 130 replies before responding to the OP.
Well done.
2 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MeowGinger wrote: »What? I see people blaming yesterday's patch. This has nothing to do with the veteran alliance nerf. Things have been like this since Craglorn came out... and a month or so ago, I saw people advertising in zone chat "LFM trials, no NBs/temps"
What you said is not wrong, however you seem to forget that Craglorn was as easy as VR 1-10 is now. So the nerf might not have started it, but it sure speeded things up.
People will need a very thick skin in future, trials will be raced content due the leaderboards and people that don't adjust will be bullied.
Its not because I bully people or others in that thread do, its just how its always been in MMOs. That's why its so important to learn soon about what group activity means in an MMO. Its not a solo performance, but a group job. Sacrifices need to be made for this to work.4 -
Arsenic_Touch✭✭✭✭✭
✭The arrogance and nerve of some people in this thread is astounding. So a group leader that took the time to explain why he was removing him and why he was performing below par makes him a bad person or an idiot? not even remotely but if it helps you sleep at night to insult a nameless person, Good for you.The PUG leader wasn't being a jerk. In fact, he took his time to explain it to you, rather than simply kicking you out of the group.
As an extreme illustration, if you prefer to play unarmored with fists and join a trial group, you're going to get kicked for having a sub-par build.
Obviously, 2h + heavy isn't as bad as unarmored with fists, but the idea is still the same.
Pretty much nailed it. You guys can blame the player all you want but the true culprit is zenimax for allowing this dynamic to continue by not balancing weapon and armor skills. Kind of amusing that people are acting so hurt that a timed run isn't allowing people to herp derp their way through it.☠ Is it better to out-monster the monster or to be quietly devoured? ☠
╔═════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ══════════════╗
"Hope can drown lost in thunderous sound."
"Fear can claim what little faith remains."
"Death will take those who fight alone."
"But united we can break a fate once set in stone."
╚═════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ══════════════╝
NA // Ebonheart Pact // Leader of CORE Legion // Namira Beta Tester // VR11 NB2 -
Csub✭✭✭✭✭Man, am I glad I am a healer.
Anyway, I do sort of understand the point of the leader but "my way or the highway" is everything but the best solution. I also agree that we had a tonload of skill points so we could be flexible but if someone prefers one given playstyle, he or she should not be looked down on and being kicked without any reasonable compromise.
I do hope the stamina builds will get their much needed love soon to avoid this becoming an epidemic (if it is not already). Even then, I bet such people will always find something to complain about... "Oh you are a vampire but not a Dunmer, cure yourself or leave" or "you don't have full gold items with gold enchants? Please, who are you kidding" etc. My favourite is, when a leader sets standards so high not even he meets but he expects others to do so."The Divines gave you a nose for a reason, Tharn. So you can keep your mouth shut and still keep breathing. - Lyris Titanborn3 -
Fleymark✭✭✭✭✭ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »This is one of the prime issues with 'end game' PvE in any game. Raid groups players can be so hateful and close-minded. Really, some of the worst in gaming, period.
In PvP they call you a noob and kill you, but in reality, they NEED you to play cause your participation is vital to what PvP is. PvP is all about players playing together.
Competitive PvE, on the other hand, seems to support this type of player too much. They don't want to play *with* you, cause you're not optimal enough.
This is why I will generally only do raids with known groups, and will ignore that community and their opinion outright. I don't think their breed of min-maxing helps the game, or the playerbase, at all. They spend so much time complaining about class balance and optimal builds and NPC layout/mechanics, trying to get the game changed over and over again for 1% of the overall content.
Good luck, Op. Do like me. Don't pug. Don't listen to raiders. And don't let their dirty superiority complex bring you down. PvP instead. We love to have you! (maybe on the opposing team, but still!)
**They don't want to play *with* you, cause you're not optimal enough.**
That is not the case in every pug. It is what is needed for that content. The goal for that particular content is optimal group support for a timed best score run.
If you'd just enjoy soloing in these new easier V+ 1-10 areas, that may be one good choice. If you'd like to set goals and get yourself into a good position to enjoy competing with others for best time/trials, well, now you have a few tips to get you started on what is necessary for you to be sought after for that content.
These bars are now set because of the way the developers designed base-class mechanics and stam - ratio in addition to crit, resists etc. in TESO. It may change in times to come, but for now, it is what it is because that is how ZOS wanted it, not because other players are meanies.
The problem is ZOS, apparently, is completely lost in the weeds as to how to design and balance an MMO.
It's as if none of these people have ever even played an MMO before or even have a fundamental grasp on basic game theory.
3 -
Vuron✭✭✭✭✭The problem is ZOS, apparently, is completely lost in the weeds as to how to design and balance an MMO.
It's as if none of these people have ever even played an MMO before or even have a fundamental grasp on basic game theory.
Topic for a different thread, but the root of the issue is trying to balance PvP with PvE. Every change they make to balance something in PvP completely screws with the rest of the game.
1 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Man, am I glad I am a healer.
Anyway, I do sort of understand the point of the leader but "my way or the highway" is everything but the best solution. I also agree that we had a tonload of skill points so we could be flexible but if someone prefers one given playstyle, he or she should not be looked down on and being kicked without any reasonable compromise.
I do hope the stamina builds will get their much needed love soon to avoid this becoming an epidemic (if it is not already). Even then, I bet such people will always find something to complain about... "Oh you are a vampire but not a Dunmer, cure yourself or leave" or "you don't have full gold items with gold enchants? Please, who are you kidding" etc. My favourite is, when a leader sets standards so high not even he meets but he expects others to do so.
I don't think that a balance will fix anything to be honest. Even if its just 5% less damage its enough to exclude someone, plus you need to factor in the checks for gear and achievements in future.
I predict that getting into a dungeon or raid without the top loot and clear achievement will be harder and harder as the game progresses.
That's why its so important to find like minded players before the dungeon and raid content starts, sadly this is very difficult now due yesterdays patch. Maybe ZO can open a guild forum for those who want to find a guild.4 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭How many of you defenders have actually been able to complete a trial with DPS using 2-Hander and Heavy Armor? Or are you just talking out your rear?
That's not the question.
The question is, why is there content in a "play your way" game that can't be completed with a group member specced in 2 hand and heavy armor?
It's not like the guy is using some off the wall obscure experimental build. It's an archetypical fantasy game build, like any other number of non dress and stick builds that can't hold up on the high end because HALF of this game continues to be BROKEN a quarter of a freaking year after release.
Meanwhile they continue to focus on all manner of trivial CRAP than fix HALF of the game.
I'm sure if you are an epeen ***, just speccing fotm optimal no matter what it is acceptable to you in pursuit of your stroke job. To a lot of people playing certain classes, builds in this game's terms, building the toon of their choice is more important than putting up numbers on a meaningless leaderboard as if we are in a fps. And some people have zero interest in playing a robed caster.
Again, it's not like the guy is playing some obscure unreasonable build. It's zenimax's fault this ever got this way to begin with. It's inexcusable that they added content to the game that encourages this behavior before fixing the balance of HALF the game.
Agreed. But then, one might wonder if the answer lies akin to the same reasoning ZOS used to figure out "why is there content in a "play your way" game that can't be completed as a solo build specced however they want to play?" Because that is the very same question that has been bantered about recently. Curious.
Well, shrugs. It is apparent from yesterdays patch that ZOS 'fixed that problem real good', so I'm sure they are giving this one consideration as well, *nods. Phases II, III and IV or more are on the way remember. o-0
1 -
Csub✭✭✭✭✭Man, am I glad I am a healer.
Anyway, I do sort of understand the point of the leader but "my way or the highway" is everything but the best solution. I also agree that we had a tonload of skill points so we could be flexible but if someone prefers one given playstyle, he or she should not be looked down on and being kicked without any reasonable compromise.
I do hope the stamina builds will get their much needed love soon to avoid this becoming an epidemic (if it is not already). Even then, I bet such people will always find something to complain about... "Oh you are a vampire but not a Dunmer, cure yourself or leave" or "you don't have full gold items with gold enchants? Please, who are you kidding" etc. My favourite is, when a leader sets standards so high not even he meets but he expects others to do so.
I don't think that a balance will fix anything to be honest. Even if its just 5% less damage its enough to exclude someone, plus you need to factor in the checks for gear and achievements in future.
I predict that getting into a dungeon or raid without the top loot and clear achievement will be harder and harder as the game progresses.
That's why its so important to find like minded players before the dungeon and raid content starts, sadly this is very difficult now due yesterdays patch. Maybe ZO can open a guild forum for those who want to find a guild.
I think we already have a guild recruitment forum.
But yes, I agree, some people would kick others for doing 5% less DPS than what they want. And I already started seeing in chats that "LFM x dungeon, need achievement". It reminds me of finding a job all over: You need experience for a job which you would get from a job for which you need experience to get so you can get job so you can ... You get it, I guess. Edited by Csub on July 8, 2014 4:56PM"The Divines gave you a nose for a reason, Tharn. So you can keep your mouth shut and still keep breathing. - Lyris Titanborn4 -
Mordria✭✭✭✭
Well this is disappointing, I've only attempted trials a few times, and I say attempted because people kept going offline etc, but today was more annoying because I found a good group, but they kicked me for wearing heavy armor + 2h (dps) after we wiped on the 3rd boss.
This was a pug group. The leader was asking for people in zone chat. This wasn't a guild run or world ranking world first or whatever. This was a casual pug group.
I'm not blaming the group leader, he wanted to complete the trial. But now I'm forced to choose a certain playstyle.
Nice one Zenimax, for being excluded because i'm not allowed to play the way I want.
Wow... what a tool. Play the way you want I say. Unfortunately you're going to run into people like this in the game.
Welcome to the thread and thank you for not bothering to read the other 130 replies before responding to the OP.
Well done.
I just don't care what you have to say Vuron. Don't take it personally.2 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Man, am I glad I am a healer.
Anyway, I do sort of understand the point of the leader but "my way or the highway" is everything but the best solution. I also agree that we had a tonload of skill points so we could be flexible but if someone prefers one given playstyle, he or she should not be looked down on and being kicked without any reasonable compromise.
I do hope the stamina builds will get their much needed love soon to avoid this becoming an epidemic (if it is not already). Even then, I bet such people will always find something to complain about... "Oh you are a vampire but not a Dunmer, cure yourself or leave" or "you don't have full gold items with gold enchants? Please, who are you kidding" etc. My favourite is, when a leader sets standards so high not even he meets but he expects others to do so.
I don't think that a balance will fix anything to be honest. Even if its just 5% less damage its enough to exclude someone, plus you need to factor in the checks for gear and achievements in future.
I predict that getting into a dungeon or raid without the top loot and clear achievement will be harder and harder as the game progresses.
That's why its so important to find like minded players before the dungeon and raid content starts, sadly this is very difficult now due yesterdays patch. Maybe ZO can open a guild forum for those who want to find a guild.
I think we already have a guild recruitment forum.
But yes, I agree, some people would kick others for doing 5% less DPS than what they want. And I already started seeing in chats that "LFM x dungeon, need achievement". It reminds me of finding a job all over: You need experience for a job which you would get from a job for which you need experience to get so you can get job so you can ... You get it, I guess.
Haha yap 2 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭Fairydragon3 wrote: »Don't give up there are people like this in all games, some just prefer to group with certain types of people. these guys seem like your typical Elitist jerk, where they want only specs that can benefit them the most. IMO if they were that good themselves they should have been able to carry you, but most likely they were after the lowest time possible
No the trails are hard to do with a Pick up group period.... You have to have the right setup and you can not carry many people through it.... Its to demanding ... Unfortunately the group leader was right! At this point heavy armer is gimp add that to a melee ability and its more gimp lol ..... I would love to play a heavy armor twohander just like the poster... In fact this is how I want to play... however if I do play that way I will find myself face down in the dirt more often doing about the same damage as sword/shield with magic abilites (Light Armer)... My AF is over 2k in light armer as a tank with magic Heave Armor needs something everyone agree's .... Twohander needs something most people agree.... Two hander needs to do more damage compared to One Handed.... ... Armor tables are to weak and do not mitigate enough damage Caps are to low and a full set of green/blue heavy sits at cap.... You are punished if you upgrade it... Immovable should not be used by light armor toons ... Edited by Durham on July 8, 2014 4:58PMPVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables3 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭They were actually nice to let you try a few times first. Heavy armour does nothing to help DPS at all. Medium or light are kind of required in anything competitive. Heavy is for tanking or looks. If you ain't tanking you could switch to medium, then you would at least do more damage with that 2 handed, assuming you have the medium passives.1