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A long Discussion on Why ZOS is Balancing VR Content

Malpherian
Malpherian
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I snipped some of this from various threads I have posted on, and compiled it, I have left the Authors name out. But my responses as well as some others are left in. The Bottom line here is that the Game itself was "Intended" to preform a certain way, and ZOS promised it's buyers a certain experience, which they are not receiving. The VR changes will, hopefully bring the content more into line with the original promised and intended design.

The below should help explain some of the confusion in why ZOS is doing it, pease pay close attention to the bolded statements.
Most of the people saying Do not nerf VR content are using cookie cutter builds.
I am so tired of people parroting this on the internet without having a clue what they are talking about. There ARE no cookie cutter specs. You don't know what morphs I have, what my crowd control does, why it is OP. You just heard that on the internet and now use it to attack my argument.

ANY class has the ability to slot a CC ability. ANY class has the ability to switch to ranged abilities for mobs that require it. The problem is, people would rather cry for nerfs and claim anyone that ENJOYS adapting and using the mechanics they were given is an "elitist" playing a "cookie cutter spec."

Just stop!

1.) By your first statement I believe you are confused as to what a "cookie cutter spec" actually is, in gaming terms.

Definition:

"Gammer term that indicates overpowered character(s) (build of class) that easily dominate in PVE and/or in PvP and (therefore) are massively common."

Would you not agree that, his build is exactly this? Looks like hes pretty much dominating content that everyone else has issues with with a 3-5 button spam of abilities and a very specific stat layout......

Moving on:

2.) This comment shows a distinct lack of knowledge about classes in TESO in general.

* Not all ranged weapons, and class abilities CC or otherwise have the same duration or effect on the Mob. And in many cases some do not even work even remotely the same mechanic wise.

* Again here we get into being forced to use a "Certain" weapon, Armor, Or skill Set in order to complete content. "This is the point ZOS has said is NOT working as intended." If a Paladin (Templar 2light/5 Heavy/Mace Shield/Aedric Spear/Resto) wants to do content, they should not have to switch to Solar Mage (Ranged Spells and CC, Destro Staff, Light Armor), in order to do so.

"The Game is supposed to be Challenging, without forcing a player to play their character in a way they do not want to."
2. Adapting as you call it, is not the same as being forced to re-spec your character entirely, change what weapons, and armor your using, and also change the very class style you play to something entirely different in order to do content.
No one said you had to. You don't. By level 50 you should have more than just your favorite weapon leveled up at least a little, unless you just have a mental block against it. If you put on a random weapon when you turn in a quest, that weapon gets the XP and so there's a way you can level them without actually using them.

I have dual wield, 2H, destro, and restro staff all leveled really high and bow as well though I never use it. As a mele character you SHOULD have leveled bow a bit. It is a STAMINA-BASED weapon that gives you CC and ranged options so you can adapt when you need it.

You can just carry it in your bag for those occasions. Simple. No one is asking you to put on a dress! Just to play the game the way it was designed!

1.) Why should someone "Have to, or "Why Should they" (as you put it ) ought to level up a weapon they don't want to?This is the point ZOS is making, you shouldn't have to play a weapon or armor if you don't want to, and you should still be able to complete the content.

So If a person wants to go full melee, they should be able to and still be able to do the content.

2.) Yes the other weapon will give them options, you know this, I know this, but that's not the point. The point is "In an Elder Scrolls Game", for the player to have fun, not for them to worry about (too much) useing a specific build, weapon, or armor, in order to complete content. THIS is what TES games are about.

Unlike other MMO's, TESO main theme is NOT "Get the Best weapons and Gear so you can do the best content" Which unfortunately is something many many people get confused about.
The answer is simple, this is TESO, and any TES fan knows that TES is NOT every other MMO. ZOS intentionally gave players the ability to make their classes into (Almost) anything they wanted, granted Nightblades for example will never heal as well as Templars and there is a class wall and restrictions there, but, they did give people the option to play their class effectively (within its role restrictions of course) in MANY MANY different ways.
EXACTLY! So, why WOULDN'T you want to level up some ranged and CC options, given you have them in your arsenal? When you refuse to do so, why would you complain about not being able to mele a troll?

It would be like encountering an enemy that was immune to fire damage and crying for a nerf because you "want to play your way" and hit them with only fire, when you have lightning, ice, mele, and bow sitting right there staring you in the face.

This is stubbornness on the part of players more than anything else, and they shouldn't ruin the fun and challenge of having to adapt and try different strategies for everyone else just because people refuse to change their slotted abilities.

1.) Because some people don;t want to, and in TESO, that's ok. And in TESO, you should in fact be able to Melee a troll, because that is how you want to roll and play your character. Again TESO is about "Character Development, and "Play how you want as what you want",

Not about :

"I need to use a bow to kill this troll because it's easier and takes less time".

2.) Is it stubbornness to want to play your character how you want to play it "when the game specifically states that the entire goal (Of the game) is to play your character how you want?" No, it isn't. "It's expecting the Game to Deliver the experience it promises."
3. TES is about Lore, RP, Character Development, Immersion, and Creativity, NOT about "If you don't spec this way and use this weapon and armor you can'rt do this content".
It is not SUPPOSED to be anything. You said it yourself: play how you want. The problem is that people refuse to level alt weapons even when they were clearly designed as the ranged/CC option for melee/stamina classes, then complain things are too hard when they hit content that needs to be ranged/CC'd.

This is like saying the game is broken unless all mobs are tailored to your specific build choice, so you never have to change it.

What is so wrong with change?

People complain about Sorcerers, but they are NOT the problem. I just see a higher percent of Sorcerers that are willing to put some CC and defensive abilities on their bar. But ALL classes have access to them.

1.) It's supposed to be what it is advertised as, if you want to play with a cookie cutter build, you should be able to. If others do not, they shouldn't have to. If people do not want to level certain weapons, they shouldn't have to. Will doing so make their game easier? Sure, but they should not be "required" to in order to complete it.

2.) Not really, but yes VR content is broken. It's why they are changing it :P. People shouldn't have to change if they don;t want to, again this is going into "Play how you want". If I don;t want to ever use a ranged weapon for example, I shouldn't have too, because using it is NOT playing how I want to play. The paladin in the example I gave does not use a crossbow or bow for example. And if he doesn't want to, he should not have to.

3.) Sorcerers are not the issue no, I agree here. And all classes do have CC. However, as stated before not all classes CC works the same, or even has remotely the same effect on the target as another classes. "Warning! Results may Vary"!!! :P
Edited by Malpherian on July 5, 2014 3:59AM
  • wrlifeboil
    wrlifeboil
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    tl;dr:

    Short answer: not enough players in VR and/or need for VR difficulty as a speed governor on leveling has been re-prioritized.
  • pilotfish
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    To use the example of killing a troll with melee, it is possible. To feel that your play-how-I-want is being infringed upon because you can't melee a troll successfully without some serious mitigation, cure power or disabling effects is similar to complaining that your pawn can't do what your rook or bishop can. If your pawn could move like a rook or bishop, you wouldn't be playing chess anymore.
  • Yakidafi
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    First I notice is the heavily skewed angle on the op and his quoted repliers.

    Like I would see sheogorath debating with that mages guild elderly man he had tricked in the main guild quest ^^
    Moons and sands shall be your guide and path.
    PC EU/NA
  • isengrimb16_ESO
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    Yakidafi wrote: »
    First I notice is the heavily skewed angle on the op and his quoted repliers.

    Like I would see sheogorath debating with that mages guild elderly man he had tricked in the main guild quest ^^

    This is, Shalidor should know better than to let Sheo get his goat; Sheo does it on purpose, and he knows it.
  • Sharee
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    Malpherian wrote: »
    And in TESO, you should in fact be able to Melee a troll, because that is how you want to roll and play your character.

    I am meleeing trolls all the time, and it is extremely easy, because trolls only do melee damage, and they are not immune to sparks, so i just keep them blinded missing all attacks while i kill them.

    The quote above is, by the way, a much better answer to the question why ZOS is balancing VR content: Because most players do not know how to play their characters. Instead of researching what melee options are there available to help them defeat a troll, they simply use the same abilities they use to defeat other enemies, and when it does not work, they conclude trolls can't be melee'd and require ZOS to nerf them.
  • Malpherian
    Malpherian
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Malpherian wrote: »
    And in TESO, you should in fact be able to Melee a troll, because that is how you want to roll and play your character.

    I am meleeing trolls all the time, and it is extremely easy, because trolls only do melee damage, and they are not immune to sparks, so i just keep them blinded missing all attacks while i kill them.

    The quote above is, by the way, a much better answer to the question why ZOS is balancing VR content: Because most players do not know how to play their characters. Instead of researching what melee options are there available to help them defeat a troll, they simply use the same abilities they use to defeat other enemies, and when it does not work, they conclude trolls can't be melee'd and require ZOS to nerf them.

    That bit about meleeing a troll was actually in reply to the other guy saying someone was stupid for not using a destro staff or a bow and ccing it in place.

    Unfortunately I had to cut a lot of the discussion out in a lot of areas, because it would have been a book :P.
  • MediusMajere
    Good post, OP. Good post.
  • vyndral13preub18_ESO
    vyndral13preub18_ESO
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    Just to point out the obvious people keep saying it. The play the way you want and I shouldn't have to defense, well the apply to every one. You use them as a defense on making the game easier, they are just as valid a defense for making the game harder.

    Examples

    I want to make the best build i can and still have a challenge in leveling content. That is the way i want to play.
    Or
    I shouldn't have to gimp myself to make things interesting.

  • Ohioastro
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    Play the way you want doesn't mean that you can ignore heals, crowd control, and basic features like block and dodge. It does not mean that you can use the same five buttons no matter what. It does mean that all characters can fill all roles.
  • Kulthax
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    Ohioastro wrote: »
    Play the way you want doesn't mean that you can ignore heals, crowd control, and basic features like block and dodge. It does not mean that you can use the same five buttons no matter what. It does mean that all characters can fill all roles.

    So to play devil's advocate here, the statement play as you want should be taken figuratively and not literally? Is that the argument?

    Most take it to be a literal statement since nothing was presented to the buyers of this game to lead them to think otherwise. So why not play with the same 5 buttons? You are essentially suggesting that people need to play as you play. :)
  • martinhpb16_ESO
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    I'm NB vamp, med armour, d/w & bow. I have no problem with vet content as is, I enjoy he challenge and overcome it.

    I guess that must mean I am using the cookie cutter build. Should i change to something else to make it harder so I can see what people are talking about?

    Edited by martinhpb16_ESO on July 5, 2014 6:17PM
    At least the spelling is difficult for you.
    Hew's Bane*
  • Ohioastro
    Ohioastro
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    Kulthax wrote: »
    Ohioastro wrote: »
    Play the way you want doesn't mean that you can ignore heals, crowd control, and basic features like block and dodge. It does not mean that you can use the same five buttons no matter what. It does mean that all characters can fill all roles.

    So to play devil's advocate here, the statement play as you want should be taken figuratively and not literally? Is that the argument?

    Most take it to be a literal statement since nothing was presented to the buyers of this game to lead them to think otherwise. So why not play with the same 5 buttons? You are essentially suggesting that people need to play as you play. :)

    Taken literally it would be silly: presumably people don't expect to be able to do well without weapons or skills or armor.
  • Blackwidow
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    "A long Discussion on Why ZOS is Balancing VR Content"

    Short answer: Money.
  • Malpherian
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    People are not desiring easy content, many saying VR is broken have made that clear, and several are elitist, who want to use the areas difficulty to find a group but no one is around to group with in many of the areas.

    The problem is not that VR content is too hard specifically, and this is not the complaint of many. The problem is that VR content does not deliver for many Subscribers and Customers, the experience which ZOS said it would.

    This can be for any number of reasons:

    * Rewards and XP not worth the effort
    * Raw difficulty while Solo
    * Inability to find groups in an area designed for group play
    * The content is boreing

    Just to name a few, which people have been reporting, this is not to say that for everyone, this content is not satisfying, for some it is. The problem is that there are so many "Different" Complaints about VR and Endgame content.

    However, no matter what question you ask or from what angle you legitimately approach VR content, there is something wrong with it or some function that is "Not working as Intended".

    That, is the issue.
    Edited by Malpherian on July 5, 2014 9:07PM
  • Larira
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    They do not balance anything.

    The point is, the VR content is very easy when you choose a magicka-based CC-build. And it may be impossible with a stamina-based single target non-CC-build. The reason for this is a totaly broken game mechanics. Stamina is to weak, armour is totaly useless etc. The funny thing is, it is better for a tank to wear light or medium armour than heavy armour because you can mitigate much more incoming damage with some magicka-based self buffs or stamina-based blocking. With heavy armour equipped you may run out of magicka or stamina. And then you have a problem as a tank. ^^

    The right thing to fix the VR content would be a complete game mechanics overhaul. Make heavy armour viable, make stamina-based builds viable etc. But this is the difficult way to fix the VR content.

    Unfortunately they choose the easy way: they will make their broken game mechanics totaly obsolete. Yes, it might bring some cancelled subs back. But with a obsolete game mechanics you will have an other WoW clone on the market. And i doubt that ESO can compete with the Original or some other F2P-WoW clones.

    Greeting and sorry for my english. ^^
    Edited by Larira on July 5, 2014 9:57PM
  • Wifeaggro13
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    Larira wrote: »
    They do not balance anything.

    The point is, the VR content is very easy when you choose a magicka-based CC-build. And it may be impossible with a stamina-based single target non-CC-build. The reason for this is a totaly broken game mechanics. Stamina is to weak, armour is totaly useless etc. The funny thing is, it is better for a tank to wear light or medium armour than heavy armour because you can mitigate much more incoming damage with some magicka-based self buffs or stamina-based blocking. With heavy armour equipped you may run out of magicka or stamina. And then you have a problem as a tank. ^^

    The right thing to fix the VR content would be a complete game mechanics overhaul. Make heavy armour viable, make stamina-based builds viable etc. But this is the difficult way to fix the VR content.

    Unfortunately they choose the easy way: they will make their broken game mechanics totaly obsolete. Yes, it might bring some cancelled subs back. But with a obsolete game mechanics you will have an other WoW clone on the market. And i doubt that ESO can compete with the Original or some other F2P-WoW clones.

    Greeting and sorry for my english. ^^

    Direct truth. All of it 100%. Extremely sad and i gurantee they wont even implement this patch correctly
  • reagen_lionel
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    Larira wrote: »
    They do not balance anything.

    The point is, the VR content is very easy when you choose a magicka-based CC-build. And it may be impossible with a stamina-based single target non-CC-build. The reason for this is a totaly broken game mechanics. Stamina is to weak, armour is totaly useless etc. The funny thing is, it is better for a tank to wear light or medium armour than heavy armour because you can mitigate much more incoming damage with some magicka-based self buffs or stamina-based blocking. With heavy armour equipped you may run out of magicka or stamina. And then you have a problem as a tank. ^^

    The right thing to fix the VR content would be a complete game mechanics overhaul. Make heavy armour viable, make stamina-based builds viable etc. But this is the difficult way to fix the VR content.

    Unfortunately they choose the easy way: they will make their broken game mechanics totaly obsolete. Yes, it might bring some cancelled subs back. But with a obsolete game mechanics you will have an other WoW clone on the market. And i doubt that ESO can compete with the Original or some other F2P-WoW clones.

    Greeting and sorry for my english. ^^

    yes this is pretty on the spot.
  • martinhpb16_ESO
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    Larira wrote: »
    They do not balance anything.

    The point is, the VR content is very easy when you choose a magicka-based CC-build. And it may be impossible with a stamina-based single target non-CC-build. The reason for this is a totaly broken game mechanics. Stamina is to weak, armour is totaly useless etc. T^^

    I'm doing it on a vamp NB, medium, d/w / bow and very rarely use aoe skills and it most definitely is not impossible.

    I plan my attacks, match skills to the situation including the use of defensive skills, I block, evade, kite, use moblility, team up with others, use other tools like stealth & food. I have also thought about my build.

    I definitely die but I also adapt to survive.

    What I do not do is stand there like a drone punching five perma skills on my bar and then wonder why I died and think it must be the games fault.
    Edited by martinhpb16_ESO on July 6, 2014 10:29AM
    At least the spelling is difficult for you.
    Hew's Bane*
  • Shunravi
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    I keep leaving 2¢ all over the place... But here goes.

    The thing that saddens me the most is people saying you have to use a destro/restro to even get through the content. This is simply not true and it tends to discourage players more than the difficulty spike. You cannot expect something that works on one class of enemies to work on a different class. That being said, you do not need to change your build up drastically to much to meet a challenge. Many times it comes down to how well you are working with mechanics then what skills you have on your bar.

    Let's take trolls for example. They are tough, they are strong, they are dumb. Stand in front of a troll expecting to block through everything he throws at you will leave you bloody; but if you move around, interrupt/dodge any charged moves, and stay clear of its aoe, you won't even need to have cc in your bar necessarily. Yes it's basic attacks hit hard, and doing this will make for a longer fight, but it is doable. I have melee'd vet trolls often and with much success.

    Yesterday I went to the vet10 zone to melee a gargoyle who I was not able to beat with my 2hander the first time. If you are not familiar, they are not cc-able, move fast, hit hard, and tend to give many a hard time. It took me a few tries, but I was able to do it.

    That's the problem though, there are few options to make melee viable in the current content. The risk/reward is just not there. The survivability is poor vs ranged options.

    Thing is, I don't use what would be considered a 'cookie cutter' build. I've done the content all the way through solo. I don't have any singular build. My skills and armor are always being changed out. I can see where people don't want to do this though, and it is not the way they want to play.
    Edited by Shunravi on July 7, 2014 3:37PM
    This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!
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