GothicPython wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

how about we just alter the bloodmoon passive like this...

Blood Moon – Allows player to turn another player into a Werewolf once every 7 days by returning to the ritual site. Turned players earn the Werewolf skill line. Players infected with Vampirism cannot be turned.

Recover Health While in werewolf form based current ultimate charge.

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Using the following math to determine the hp per tick..

Every 1 second...

Player regains x% of their ultimate. using their level to determine X

so a level 50 (or any veteran level) player would regain 50% of their current ultimate each tick as HP... meaning if a player has 300 ultimate they would gain 150 per sec.

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This change would make WW more powerful the longer you stay in the form... giving up to 500 HP a second healing in combat if they manage to stay in the form long enough to get 1000 ultimate..

additonal stuff if that is too much is making the heal per second capped at 15-20% of the players max health.

Thats definitely an interesting idea, though for balancing purposes I think some of the numbers might need to be changed. 150 hp a second is pretty high, maybe something more along the lines of 10% of current ultimate? This will also stack with the players current health regen rates. So a level 50 with 300 ultimate will gain 30 health back per second + w/e their in-combat health regen ticks for as well. At 1000 ultimate this would equate to 100 health + their ICHR.

I definitely think this is a better alternative to devour, since the amount of health you regen from devouring is less than the damage you take while devouring (assuming your in combat still) this is a good change that would boosts werewolves survivability.

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

GothicPython wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

how about we just alter the bloodmoon passive like this...

Blood Moon – Allows player to turn another player into a Werewolf once every 7 days by returning to the ritual site. Turned players earn the Werewolf skill line. Players infected with Vampirism cannot be turned.

Recover Health While in werewolf form based current ultimate charge.

---

Using the following math to determine the hp per tick..

Every 1 second...

Player regains x% of their ultimate. using their level to determine X

so a level 50 (or any veteran level) player would regain 50% of their current ultimate each tick as HP... meaning if a player has 300 ultimate they would gain 150 per sec.

---

This change would make WW more powerful the longer you stay in the form... giving up to 500 HP a second healing in combat if they manage to stay in the form long enough to get 1000 ultimate..

additonal stuff if that is too much is making the heal per second capped at 15-20% of the players max health.

Thats definitely an interesting idea, though for balancing purposes I think some of the numbers might need to be changed. 150 hp a second is pretty high, maybe something more along the lines of 10% of current ultimate? This will also stack with the players current health regen rates. So a level 50 with 300 ultimate will gain 30 health back per second + w/e their in-combat health regen ticks for as well. At 1000 ultimate this would equate to 100 health + their ICHR.

I definitely think this is a better alternative to devour, since the amount of health you regen from devouring is less than the damage you take while devouring (assuming your in combat still) this is a good change that would boosts werewolves survivability.

under the numbers i listed you would hit 500 per second once you got up to 1000 ultimate... it takes several minutes to hit that level in combat tho and the likley hood of taking advantage of that in PvE or PvP content is basically non existant..

Rapid Regeneration easily hits 100 hp per second and Night blades can manage 200-400 per second depending on how hard they hit with swallow soul.. really no reason why a absolute limit of 500 per second cant be done in a mode that you otherwise have no real healing..

However i think it should be hard capped at 15-20% of the Werewolves max HP as i mentioned.. 15% mean the most a Werewolf would get in WW form is 450 if they had 3k hp.. and most stam build wolves will only have 2k or so for only about 300.

My sorcerer can hit 1.5k Hp per-second with just the healing from Critical Surge...

Samadhi wrote: »

GothicPython wrote: »

There's no doubt that the Werewolf line needs a pretty serious overhaul, so I thought I'd start this thread to open up some discussion on some possibilities to help make the Werewolf more viable and more enjoyable.

...

I like your suggestions for making Werewolf feel more complete. The idea of giving a dedicated "weapon" bar gives a nice level of control over time spent transformed.

However, your thread doesn't touch upon the most important issue I have personally run into.
As I noted when I made this thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/116465/werewolves-what-issues-are-you-facing-and-how-would-you-like-to-see-them-fixed

The biggest problem I have as a Werewolf is complete lack of self-healing and individual sustain.
After leveling my skill line to level 9 this is still the only real issue I have with the Werewolf transformation.

Werewolf needs some sort of change to add health absorb to our current claw attacks. Each time we attack something we should get some HP back, so that we can stay in the fight longer and not simply be overtaken due to lack of health.

As a Nightblade healing with Strife, I can heal myself with HoT ticks of around 200-300 hp depending on how hard I hit.
As a Werewolf all I get is around 800 health as a one-time bonus from Devour every 20 seconds or so. This really is not sufficient for combat in PvP, or even in Veteran PvE zones.

With no self healing, Werewolf is permanently gimped as a solo player.
Fixing this would remedy literally every issue I am having with the ultimate right now. =/

GothicPython wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

GothicPython wrote: »

There's no doubt that the Werewolf line needs a pretty serious overhaul, so I thought I'd start this thread to open up some discussion on some possibilities to help make the Werewolf more viable and more enjoyable.

...

I like your suggestions for making Werewolf feel more complete. The idea of giving a dedicated "weapon" bar gives a nice level of control over time spent transformed.

However, your thread doesn't touch upon the most important issue I have personally run into.
As I noted when I made this thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/116465/werewolves-what-issues-are-you-facing-and-how-would-you-like-to-see-them-fixed

The biggest problem I have as a Werewolf is complete lack of self-healing and individual sustain.
After leveling my skill line to level 9 this is still the only real issue I have with the Werewolf transformation.

Werewolf needs some sort of change to add health absorb to our current claw attacks. Each time we attack something we should get some HP back, so that we can stay in the fight longer and not simply be overtaken due to lack of health.

As a Nightblade healing with Strife, I can heal myself with HoT ticks of around 200-300 hp depending on how hard I hit.
As a Werewolf all I get is around 800 health as a one-time bonus from Devour every 20 seconds or so. This really is not sufficient for combat in PvP, or even in Veteran PvE zones.

With no self healing, Werewolf is permanently gimped as a solo player.
Fixing this would remedy literally every issue I am having with the ultimate right now. =/

I can see your point and I have a few suggestions to help remedy this situation.

1. As stated above change Devour to a channel ability that heals a specific amount each second like current npcs have (most notable beig sliders).

2. Blood Claws - passive perk that returns 7.5% damage (15% at rank 2) inflicted as health. For example do 100 damage and gain 15 health with perk at rank 2. (I believe this one was stated above) Obviously at higher levels players are going to do more than 100 damage and when combined with internal health regen rates should definitely help survivability.

3. Add a new skill that looks something like:
Power of the Beast - consumes 50% of total stamina or magicka pool (which ever would be more balanced) and gain 200% amount drained as health. For instance if you had a full stamina bar of 2000 then the skill would drain 1000 and heal you for
2001. If you were to use it again then you would lose 500 more stamina and gain another 1000 health (at which point you've just burned 75% of your stamina pool). Also most of the time when you would plan on using this skill you would likely not be at full stamina anyway so to make this skill beneficial the return needs to be worthwhile.
- First morph option: Blood of the Beast - consumes 50% of total stamina or magicka pool (which ever would be more balanced) and gain 200% amount drained as health. Gain 215% amount drained as health (225% at rank IV)
- Second morph option: Rage of the Beast - consumes 50% of total stamina or magicka pool (which ever would be more balanced) and gain 200% amount drained as health. Gain 10% additional melee damage for 10 seconds (15% at rank IV)

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

One of the things that burns me up about Werewolf form is that we don't build ultimate while fighting as a wolf. Its already an underperforming Ultimate ability, which is a bit sad since 85% of your abilities are built around the Wolf form. That's a lot of wasted skillpoints but I digress. Everything else builds ultimate while their ultimate is running. Once you've fired the ultimate, ultimate builds. I've gotten Bat Swarm almost completely refreshed after firing Bat swarm in a farmed group of mobs. I've done the same with Battle Standard, Nova, and other ultimates as well. It makes no sense to me that we don't start regenerating ultimate while in Wolf form. Wolf form is just too short. It needs to either drastically lower its cost (I'd much rather use Overload than Wolf form for a spammable melee ultimate) or it needs to be a hell of a lot stronger. We need to KNOW its an ultimate and not some crappy change to our character that makes us weaker both generally and specifically moreso in wolf form.

Its a fun thing to play with when its up, but its not really a viable skill line at all. Its like riding around on a skateboard, its fun, but its not really the best method of getting from point a to b. There are much better vehicles for that purpose.

GothicPython wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

GothicPython wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

Going to start of by announcing that I am also a WW, so I understand and feel your pain. The problem I have with most of these fix WW posts is that people are suggesting huge, broad, sweeping changes that would only have unforeseen impacts to the balance of the game. I fully agree that changes need to be made, I just think they need to fix one thing at a time in smaller balanced steps. Last thing I want would be huge sweeping changes one patch only to be nerfed to Oblivion on the next.

First let me identify the 3 big issues that all of us agree on.

1) Ultimate costs are too high or hard to reach to justify the short time.
2) Wolf form is immensely weaker than human form, unless you are full 5 member pack, even then the differences in power to not justify a 16 skill ultimate.
3) Unable to CC break in wolf form, making the ultimate too easy to circumvent.

Here me out on this, these are my proposed, smaller fixes. These I would like to see in the more immediate future until they have the time to adequately overhaul.

I agree that massive overhauls have the possibility to go wrong, and should be saved for a time when they can receive the proper attention and dedication they need. Small simple fixes for the immediate future would be nice with potential complete over-haul in the future.

1) Remove the WW transformation timer, make it so when you press your ultimate you transform, but instead of losing that 750 ultimate, that becomes your timer. Lose 10 ultimate a second while transformed. Adjust the cost per second as required to balance the game. At 10 per second, that would mean a 750 transformation would last 75 seconds (35 seconds longer than now). Or if you saved all the way up to 1000, you would have 100 seconds of transformed time. This way any ultimate gained in wolf form is not wasted (as in right now it just disappears when you end transformation) and prolongs your form. Leave the annoying bug where when you transform back to human you lose your ultimate. Otherwise you will have abuse with the 1000 ultimate, change for 25 seconds, revert for a few kills to get back to 1000, repeat.

You had me at remove the transormation timer, but then lost me when you basically just moved it to something based off your ultimate. So basically you're still keep the timer and that's one the main issues WW at the moment to begin with. Even with your suggestions the time you spend in wolf form is far too short to justify the immensely high cost which you basically propose to put back at a 1000 to make it so you have an sort of decent time in formation.

Unless you drastically increase the ultimate gain and/or allow werewolves to keep their ultimate they gain in form, then this solution wont change anything.

2) Right now, when we transform, we keep our armor benefits, lose any weapon benefits, and damage is completely based on stamina. This is a big issue because the amount of damage that my normal attacks do appear, at least it to me, to be weaker than my human form until I hit 3 stacks of Savage Strength. Meaning that I am expected to somehow get 3 kills in a weakened state, where I cannot stealth, before I am able to do around the damage I could do before. The best way I would suggest to fix this is by making the weapon damage also transfer over to wolf form. Balance it out so that our base wolf form damage is slightly higher than human form damage (from the increased stamina), so Savage Strength actually means something. We lose any stamina reductions when we go wolf, keeping the high cost of wolf abilities crippling, especially if we need to roll/dodge. I would also make it so the weapon passives transfer over. This would help mitigate the high costs and also bring a unique feeling to each players wolf. Two hand would keep its splash damage, etc. Dual wield extra damage to disorientated foes, etc. Sword and Shield reduced blocking, etc. Restoration staff heal on heavy hit, etc. That way you could have a bigger variety of WW damage without having to add a bunch of skills or making WW a bigger skill sink than it already is. Further more, seeing the ultimate change suggestions above, I would like to see Devour changed as well. Still keep the recent patch addition of "each corpse can only be devoured once" so that no matter what WW eats the corpse, it is used, and also keep the no devour cool down. Change devour so it is a progressive healing channel. Make it so that you heal for 10% or 15% per second while devouring. Just like some of the NPC animals and bugs you see out questing. They constantly heal while eating until full or interrupted. Devour should work the same way for WW. That way if you are in combat or PvP, you can stop and eat a corpse and heal up to full if not interrupted. If the NPCs or enemy players don't stop you during the 8-10 seconds that I would take to heal from deaths door to 100%, you deserve to be healed, and they deserve to be eaten next.

The weapon passive idea sounds interesting, but also sounds a little complicated, and I can definitely see some balance issues associated with it. I also think that a lot of the passives wouldnt really translate over very well like (arcane passive from 2 hander). Instead how about a simple flat 50% damage bonus/increase to light/heavy attacks while in wolf form.

I do particularly like your devour change to making it basically a channel skill, that allows you to continuously gain morale for the duration instead of one lump sum at the end. This would be a nice simple fix and would definitely improve the skill.

3) Simple, allow CC break in WW form.

Completely agree, and it's nice and simple.

I just started with the 10 ultimate a second use for transformation to start with. At 750 cost that is 75 seconds, almost double our current timer. Not to mention as a pack leader, I usually generate 200 to 300 ultimate in a 40 second transformation if in constant combat. It would be safe to assume I could continue that same generation rate for the 75 seconds. Maybe 400 to 500 more ultimate? Extra 40 to 50 seconds, time enough to generate an extra 200 to 300 ultimate, 20 to 30 more seconds, etc. Without continuing with the example, that is 125 or more seconds (over 2 minutes). I think that way of working would more than compensate for the costs. If it still didn't seem like enough, it would be easy to adjust the cost per second up or down for balance purposes.

I would love WW to be a unstoppable force of nature like they are in mythology, or other games, but I am also realistic in the fact that this is an MMO. There needs to be checks and balances. I fully understand that the cost is insane, but I don't think lowering the costs further or making the ultimate a toggle is the correct path for correction.

I too realize this is an mmo which is why in my original post I proposed that the formation basically become another "weapon-line" in theory, and use 1 of your 2 weapon slots. The down-sides to doing this is that you have to use up a weapon slot for your wolf form and thus lose 5 extra slots for class/main hand weapon abilities. You're also susceptible to more incoming poison damage (should really be silver, but that doesn't exist...yet?) and the fighters guild abilities. That's still honestly a lot of downsides in my opinion...

Now the upsides to my original idea is that you would gain more wolf form skills and you would be able to choose when and for how long you wanted to be in wolf form. It gives the players the freedom to choose and do what they want, while not being completely op...

GothicPython wrote: »

...
3. Add a new skill that looks something like:
Power of the Beast - consumes 50% of total stamina or magicka pool (which ever would be more balanced) and gain 200% amount drained as health. For instance if you had a full stamina bar of 2000 then the skill would drain 1000 and heal you for
2001. If you were to use it again then you would lose 500 more stamina and gain another 1000 health (at which point you've just burned 75% of your stamina pool). Also most of the time when you would plan on using this skill you would likely not be at full stamina anyway so to make this skill beneficial the return needs to be worthwhile.
- First morph option: Blood of the Beast - consumes 50% of total stamina or magicka pool (which ever would be more balanced) and gain 200% amount drained as health. Gain 215% amount drained as health (225% at rank IV)
- Second morph option: Rage of the Beast - consumes 50% of total stamina or magicka pool (which ever would be more balanced) and gain 200% amount drained as health. Gain 10% additional melee damage for 10 seconds (15% at rank IV)