On resource nodes and competitive gathering

esothomas · June 2014

Haewk wrote: »

So instead of just farming one area the bots will now farm various areas each day. Reducing available nodes impacts normal players as well. So now there are a lot less resources available which impacts the introduction of crafting materials significantly.

Haewk wrote: »

The last thing I want is for a reduction in the amount of raw materials I encounter doing my regular questing which will lead to a reduction in the amount of improvement materials I get from refining especially purple and gold improvements.

note that bots aren't my only concern. besides, bots farm everything they can anyways - as such, you may consider bot activity constant, regardless of scenario. hence, the point is rather moot.

as for amount of player resource, you seem to making the distinction "either i have free access to every node and have everything i need OR i have a timed access and don't have enough". this is a false dichotomy. you can have free access AND not have enough (player competition, bot activity), and also timed access AND have enough. it's not like you're farming everything all the time just to get by now, is it?

or maybe you're making money in trading guilds farming nodes? dunno, i hadn't considered any eventual agenda on your part so far.

Haewk wrote: »

I also think you are vastly underestimating the resource impact of tracking node timers for every player and every account.

and i think you're overestimating. consider all the other stuff the server keeps track of. this is just another thing to add to the list. besides, if you're that concerned about server performance, consider what it means to have constantly refreshing nodes being accessed "all the time by everyone". it's really more a matter of centralization vs. decentalization, not workload.

Haewk wrote: »

And lastly, I think you are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Resource nodes are plentiful. You also get plenty of resources from deconstruction. The only benefit to raw materials is the improvement materials you can gain from refining. I have very seldom had to compete for a node since a few weeks after launch except maybe in dungeons and once you get to VR level it seems people care less about competing for nodes anyway.

you don't have to think that the problem doesn't exist, because i'm telling you it does. i want us to get rid of the griefing component (my major, or even main, concern). i see it happen. it's there. simple as that. good for you that you don't encounter it, but that's besides the point. i call this a matter of game design principles, and your "objections" seem too far distanced from that.

esothomas · June 2014

richard.a.ellisb16_ESO wrote: »

That being said, those were the acts of "gaming criminals". Zenimax is doing a good job of clearing them out. Which is the correct response in my opinion. To bend the game to offset criminal acts is just wrong in my opinion, as in real life appeasement has consequences that are usually negative.

i agree, but note that my post is not all about botting. it's not first and foremost meant to be a bot measure.

richard.a.ellisb16_ESO wrote: »

To maintain value in an economy, there needs to be an element of scarcity. One consequence of the OP's solution would be the devaluation of resources and subsequently the devaluation of crafters output. As a crafter this outcome is undesirable.

For a new player, if resources hold their value, this is a good way to get started. I am not a fan of dungeon crawling just to make income, I believe there are others that feel the same way.

hm, it's like you missed the "timers" point. timer => scarcity, simple

richard.a.ellisb16_ESO wrote: »

Oddly, I would rather compete fairly for resources. I have options if the competition is too stiff; Change areas, get better, get faster, talk to the other gatherer and work out a joint area, or do nothing, give up and rant here....

first, as mentioned, we already have PVP areas in the game. no need to sneak PVP elements into PVE. i don't pay to compete, i pay to enjoy myself (with or without other players around).
second (regarding my emphasis in bold), i don't have resource problems, so don't try and brush this off as "learn to play" or something like that. my main gripe is the design, which leads players to (occasionally) struggle against other players. it should not be so, because it's not PVP.

the way different nodes are handled in the game is inconsistent: we can relog-farm plenty of containers (silly tbh.) but some aren't available for that. i propose a unification, so that all resources are under server timer control. the difference for each individual player will be miniscule (in so far as the timers are set up accordingly), but there will be no strife anymore.

here's to no strife!

kaosodin · June 2014

PBpsy wrote: »

So we could just stay next to the rune node and log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in......................................

People who do this are @#$&@#! Ģ $8#&. Abusing / manipulating a game mechanic is cheating andthey shoukd be banned.

No to chanting the system.

But beibg able to log in and out to harvest or obtaon loot without doing anytbing is weak sauce, you shoukd be ashamed

Irakandji · June 2014

Strife is life ..

Fundamentally I disagree that competition should be removed from the game entirely. And the dialogue should end with that.

You are correct however. It is a design issue, and at times less is more.

Game Play
- The competition generates tension in rare instances, but does allow for interaction.
- It has been improved greatly already! You can hold the node open if you inadvertently fill your bag. (you couldn't in the beginning. peeps could steal from you as you stood there creating space)
- I still hate it when I am fighting a mob to get to a resource and the thief (criminal) runs in and takes the node / chest from under my nose, but then I just follow the jerk are return the favor twice over. A timer would not fix this (Chests are already on a timer) Thieves are thieves they exist (laughs I really like it if they are AoE addicts because then I pull a train to them)

Technically
- Developing and MAINTAINING a state machine that would manage all the details you have asked for; across multiple "instances", with multiple players and multiple resource types whilst maintaining an even economy is non-trivial. - In particular, the exception management would be a nightmare in and of itself.
- AND that does not take into account the innovative approach Zenimax has taken with the application "server" architecture.
- So truth be told unless you are a developer with Zenimax you have no idea how simple / difficult the deployment / implementation of the state machine would be.

I am guessing, but through observation of house interiors and banks it looks like these rooms are "instances" or possibly dedicated processes / threads. Implementing the state machine in these narrow "spaces" would be very different from doing it in the open world. (.... as in much simpler)

PBpsy · June 2014

kaosodin wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

So we could just stay next to the rune node and log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in......................................

People who do this are @#$&@#! Ģ $8#&. Abusing / manipulating a game mechanic is cheating andthey shoukd be banned.

No to chanting the system.

But beibg able to log in and out to harvest or obtaon loot without doing anytbing is weak sauce, you shoukd be ashamed

You should be ashamed for not understanding sarcasm and not using the damn spell checker.

esothomas · June 2014

richard.a.ellisb16_ESO wrote: »

Fundamentally I disagree that competition should be removed from the game entirely.

and that's why we have PVP. or mobs, i guess...

richard.a.ellisb16_ESO wrote: »

- The competition generates tension in rare instances, but does allow for interaction.

i'd say this was negative interaction, though. i want positive, since i don't want to be paying for griefing bouts.

richard.a.ellisb16_ESO wrote: »

A timer would not fix this (Chests are already on a timer) Thieves are thieves they exist

chests would be phased in the same way as so many npcs and quest interactables. it's already such a huge part of the game world, might as well stretch it just a wee bit further. such a system change can remove the "thief" option altogether!...

richard.a.ellisb16_ESO wrote: »

- Developing and MAINTAINING a state machine that would manage all the details you have asked for; across multiple "instances", with multiple players and multiple resource types whilst maintaining an even economy is non-trivial. - In particular, the exception management would be a nightmare in and of itself.
- AND that does not take into account the innovative approach Zenimax has taken with the application "server" architecture.
- So truth be told unless you are a developer with Zenimax you have no idea how simple / difficult the deployment / implementation of the state machine would be.

the entire game system is non-trivial, so i'm not sure what you're really saying here. incidentally, the megaserver and phasing architecture that zenimax are employing already has the tools for the node consistency i'm after (as already mentioned, but it bears repeating, since i think some people aren't entirely aware of how dynamic their gaming world is).

richard.a.ellisb16_ESO wrote: »

I am guessing, but through observation of house interiors and banks it looks like these rooms are "instances" or possibly dedicated processes / threads. Implementing the state machine in these narrow "spaces" would be very different from doing it in the open world. (.... as in much simpler)

well no. those rooms are quite regular parts of the map. roughly speaking, you can tell the difference between actual instance and map by the transition type: entering a house with ensuing fading sequence means you're in the same map still (yeah, it's purely cosmetic), while a loading screen means you changed zones altogether. but sometimes the client-server structure will require a bit more time, or maybe your SSD moves like lightning! hehe

anyways, there's no "technical" problem here. as an example, in Guild Wars 2, everything is shared for everyone individually. ESO has the same capabalities, but the technology is simply not employed consistently.

Irakandji · June 2014

Ahh ok, so you write code for Zenimax. I did not know that, I'm sorry. I assume you have an internal mechanism to submit you design revisions so this post is really superfluous and just gathering marketing data to support your submission.

I was also unaware that Guildwars 2 and Zenimax shared the same code base, that does make a difference. It must be very complex for you to maintain that code base across cultures, staggered release schedules and content releases. How the heck do you manage the interface between the game engine (levels codebase) to the graphics engine? The mind boggles.. grats!

vyal · June 2014

esothomas wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

client side timer
Client side node tracking is a gold sellers wet dream.

once again, flawed reading!... i really thought i made myself clear for all x-)

it's not client side, it's "client-based". meaning, the server maintains node timers on the basis of all clients individually. just like it does with so many other things.

it's not that hard, people!

Correct. It's how GW2 does it, and works fine.
Change to an appropriate number of nodes, and everyone is happy.
Competitive resource gathering was innovative in 1998. 2014? Not so much. Now it's just a gigantic pain in the ass.

The time sink is already there, making it a competitive time sink doesn't make it more fun. Tedious? Yes. Annoying? Yes.

What would be really innovative, today, is temporarily persistent, dynamic resource adjustment. That is, permitting guilds the ability to build mines, farms, and forests to obtain output resources they want while requiring an input of different resources to build. With phasing, no-one would even see it but the guilds involved.

But this is Zenimax we're talking about, innovation is not their thing.

holygraell · June 2014

I'm not sure how anyone has a problem getting nodes. I've never had a problem, even at launch, when there were lots of players around. I just keep my eyes open and act like (as my bf says) a locust, gobbling up every node as I go. (I do every craft, hence the locust behavior). I've always had waaaaay more resources than I could possibly use. Now it's to the point where I regularly bypass many of them, and if I see other players around, definitely bypass them so that they may have them instead. Point is, even at launch, there was not a problem. There are just that many nodes around in every zone. Granted you have to know where to look for ores (around rocks, especially at the mountainous edges of zones) or realize that without points into making the flowers easier to see with a 'glow' effect there will be some (thinking of columbine in particular) that are just tougher to see if you have 'grass' turned on in your graphics. But, I don't think we need this kind of change in game. Pay more attention, put points into making your resources glow... do whatever you need to do. Yes, sometimes you'll get beat to a node, or someone rude will yank a chest you're pretty obviously fighting for (you're standing on it while fighting the sabre cat that was sleeping next to it), but life is that way, let it go and move on.

I'm sorry if I come across as insulting or condescending, but I honestly can not understand where the OP's problem with getting resources is -- If the OP reads this, then perhaps you could cite some examples or explain a bit more? Hell, even the underground resource farmers never put much of a dent in my farming at all. I just gripe about them because they cheat. And I have never once run into anyone who 'griefs' on gathering (which is the only clear example I saw cited). So I really just do not get the reason for the OP's dissatisfaction with the current system. And like another poster, I too found FFXIV's (and other games') system of 'static permanodes for all' to be boring. You learn where they are and just run a circuit. There's no thrill of running over a hill and seeing, "ooh, a flower,.. and oh! a log over to the right of it.. ". I like discovering stuff, what can I say?

My best advice, besides putting points into making your nodes glow, is this -- Explore. Go off roads. Run up into the nooks and crannies of the mountains. You'll find so many resources and chests you'll wonder why no one else does it all the time too.

DeLindsay · June 2014

No, first come first serve. However the underground farmers (map hacks) that are prevalent in lowbie zones and Hollow City before you save it are annoying as crap. This happened like crazy in WoW as well as a few other MMO's and frankly I'm not sure ZoS can stop it, Blizz never figured out how to. The other ones that annoy me (usually lowbie zones) are the speed hackers that slide across the screen from node to node faster than a dev and insta pick each node. ZoS did fix the teleporting node to node that they were doing though.

There are PLENTY of resource nodes out in the world that normal non-hacking players have enough to choose from that ZoS needs not make it client specific, if they even could.

esothomas · June 2014

holygraell wrote: »

I'm sorry if I come across as insulting or condescending, but I honestly can not understand where the OP's problem with getting resources is -- If the OP reads this, then perhaps you could cite some examples or explain a bit more?

no worries

i don't have a problem getting resources (i stated as much elsewhere - and i like to go exploring too, sure!). i'm simply annoyed as a matter of principle that the system is set up the way it is, and i've had situations where it shows that players competing leads to bad mood. it's just a silly thing, that.

esothomas · June 2014

DeLindsay wrote: »

There are PLENTY of resource nodes out in the world that normal non-hacking players have enough to choose from that ZoS needs not make it client specific, if they even could.

yeah, there are plenty of resources. but that doesn't take away the player competition. which is the important point (repeating myself).

and of course ZOS can do this. it's not rocket surgery.

esothomas · June 2014

richard.a.ellisb16_ESO wrote: »

Ahh ok, so you write code for Zenimax.
[...]
I was also unaware that Guildwars 2 and Zenimax shared the same code base, that does make a difference.

unneccessary sarcasm. :P game programming/architecture considerations aren't these unique isolated cases of IT thought that you seem to want to make them.

Victus · June 2014

Yeah I... never had a problem competing for nodes ever in ESO. Sometimes I would spy an ore right about the same time someone else did and they got there before me, but it has never been a negative experience. I move on, and you know what, I find another node later on. Many players will fundamentally disagree that there is an issue at all and that's okay.

Woolenthreads · June 2014

holygraell wrote: »

I'm not sure how anyone has a problem getting nodes.

I have a problem getting very specific nodes. BS Materials-tick, Clothing Mats-Tick, Food Mats-tick, but, for most of my Alts, Alchemical Ingredients are so rare it's ridiculous, I just see Blue Entoloma, Nirnroot, Hyacinths and the occasional Wormwood or Blessed Thistle. My main used to find everything everywhere but it hasn't been like that for three weeks. I've even tried to re-install but I see no change, so my "junior" Alts have low Alchemy Levels.

LrdRahvin · June 2014

Woolenthreads wrote: »

holygraell wrote: »

I'm not sure how anyone has a problem getting nodes.

I have a problem getting very specific nodes. BS Materials-tick, Clothing Mats-Tick, Food Mats-tick, but, for most of my Alts, Alchemical Ingredients are so rare it's ridiculous, I just see Blue Entoloma, Nirnroot, Hyacinths and the occasional Wormwood or Blessed Thistle. My main used to find everything everywhere but it hasn't been like that for three weeks. I've even tried to re-install but I see no change, so my "junior" Alts have low Alchemy Levels.

L2Gather

Sorry...couldn't resist

vmoped · July 2014

I am sorry OP, but the most compelling argument against your concept is the games that have implemented this have terrible markets. What your system promotes is everyone to gather making materials nearly worthless. As a player who does not want to craft, my major source of income in the game is gathering for those who do wish to craft. Your concept, as has been implemented in other mmos, ruins this source of income.

angrmgmt · July 2014

Not everyone gets a trophy, OP.

kijima · July 2014

Hang on, so let me get this straight. You bought a game that is an MMO and you don't want it to be competitive?

Haewk · July 2014

vmoped wrote: »

I am sorry OP, but the most compelling argument against your concept is the games that have implemented this have terrible markets. What your system promotes is everyone to gather making materials nearly worthless. As a player who does not want to craft, my major source of income in the game is gathering for those who do wish to craft. Your concept, as has been implemented in other mmos, ruins this source of income.

Do you have some examples? Quite curious about these kind of concepts.

esothomas · July 2014

kijima wrote: »

Hang on, so let me get this straight. You bought a game that is an MMO and you don't want it to be competitive?

PVE <> PVP. read!

esothomas · July 2014

vmoped wrote: »

I am sorry OP, but the most compelling argument against your concept is the games that have implemented this have terrible markets. What your system promotes is everyone to gather making materials nearly worthless. As a player who does not want to craft, my major source of income in the game is gathering for those who do wish to craft. Your concept, as has been implemented in other mmos, ruins this source of income.

everyone is already gathering. materials do not become worthless (TIMERS, remember?). you can still gather for others, obviously.

also, there isn't even an auction house in ESO, so this "market" you speak of is more random than usual. to pull out my favorite example again: GW2 has instanced nodes, and nothing's wrong with that market. but to be honest, i'm not even sure what you expect a market to be. i'm guessing you want it to be mostly about farming stuff for others and making huge profits by it?

Cogo · July 2014

I really like the system. All kinds of mats from all tradeskills are asked for.
Great! Economy!

Really like this system. Maybe something to think about regarding Motifs....to make them less.

Cogo · July 2014

Woolenthreads wrote: »

holygraell wrote: »

I'm not sure how anyone has a problem getting nodes.

I have a problem getting very specific nodes. BS Materials-tick, Clothing Mats-Tick, Food Mats-tick, but, for most of my Alts, Alchemical Ingredients are so rare it's ridiculous, I just see Blue Entoloma, Nirnroot, Hyacinths and the occasional Wormwood or Blessed Thistle. My main used to find everything everywhere but it hasn't been like that for three weeks. I've even tried to re-install but I see no change, so my "junior" Alts have low Alchemy Levels.

Go to Hollow city in Coldharbour....full of the good alchemy stuff there :-p

esothomas · July 2014

Cogo wrote: »

All kinds of mats from all tradeskills are asked for.

this wouldn't be any different with the proposed consistency changes.

Woolenthreads · July 2014

Cogo wrote: »

Go to Hollow city in Coldharbour....full of the good alchemy stuff there :-p

I'm not sure that it's not my Client at fault. I've seen other comments on other threads that indicate that other people don't seem have the problem. If it is my client then it will likely affect any region the characters are in. I'm just living with it and hoping that it changes somehow at some point. *shrug* At least the Alchemy Mats aren't leveled to regions.

Haewk · July 2014

esothomas wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

So instead of just farming one area the bots will now farm various areas each day. Reducing available nodes impacts normal players as well. So now there are a lot less resources available which impacts the introduction of crafting materials significantly.

Haewk wrote: »

The last thing I want is for a reduction in the amount of raw materials I encounter doing my regular questing which will lead to a reduction in the amount of improvement materials I get from refining especially purple and gold improvements.

note that bots aren't my only concern. besides, bots farm everything they can anyways - as such, you may consider bot activity constant, regardless of scenario. hence, the point is rather moot.

as for amount of player resource, you seem to making the distinction "either i have free access to every node and have everything i need OR i have a timed access and don't have enough". this is a false dichotomy. you can have free access AND not have enough (player competition, bot activity), and also timed access AND have enough. it's not like you're farming everything all the time just to get by now, is it?

I have free access currently and I have enough. That is the current state. I have more than enough. I am suggesting no change.

You indicated in an earlier post you have enough or that you have no problem finding nodes when you want them, the sole reason for your change is the terrible conflict, grief and anguish caused by competition for nodes.

You are suggesting modifying the entire system and then adjusting timers to control the availability as under your system a bot/farmer can just run a specific route 24/7 gathering without any competition whatsoever.

So for argument's sake let us look at a 100% legal player, not a bot with no hacks. This player has one goal, to farm as many nodes as possible. In the current system the node availability for that account is determined by the node timers and the competition.

With your system the availability of nodes will be only be determined by timers.

There are more competition in low level zones than in higher level zones I assume due to the time investment required to get a character into those zones. So if the kind of resources are irrelevant and quantity is the only consideration then the player will be able to gather significantly more in low level zones due to competition being removed and will be able to do this over all 8 characters on the account.

To control this you want to adjust timers. So lets say we want to maintain the balance then we would have to adjust timers significantly to compensate for the complete lack of competition in low level zones.

In high level zones everyone is affected by this as well. The net effect is that while leveling in my VR4 zone, with very little competition, I am going to get less resources.

or maybe you're making money in trading guilds farming nodes? dunno, i hadn't considered any eventual agenda on your part so far.

As I understand it no one is making money by trading materials, you make money by refining raw materials and selling the improvement materials you get.

My eventual agenda is to craft all my gear myself and to have enough improvement materials at VR12 to craft gold weapons and a purple armor set. I do not sell raw materials or improvement materials. Currently at VR4 I have about 8 gold and 15 purple improvement materials. I haven't bought or sold any materials of any kind.

I do wonder about your agenda though as your suggested system seems to benefit the node farmer while "solving" an issue that is so negligible in my opinion that it hardly matters.

Haewk wrote: »

I also think you are vastly underestimating the resource impact of tracking node timers for every player and every account.

and i think you're overestimating. consider all the other stuff the server keeps track of. this is just another thing to add to the list. besides, if you're that concerned about server performance, consider what it means to have constantly refreshing nodes being accessed "all the time by everyone". it's really more a matter of centralization vs. decentalization, not workload.

Your client is not keeping track of nodes, the server is. Instead of keeping track of 1 set of nodes for all players the server now needs to keep track of nodes per character (or account). You can try and minimize the impact of this by having a fixed reset time for nodes so you don't need to keep track of a date/time stamp but only a "has been looted" flag for each node per player.

How you think this is efficient to track is beyond me.

Haewk wrote: »

And lastly, I think you are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Resource nodes are plentiful. You also get plenty of resources from deconstruction. The only benefit to raw materials is the improvement materials you can gain from refining. I have very seldom had to compete for a node since a few weeks after launch except maybe in dungeons and once you get to VR level it seems people care less about competing for nodes anyway.

you don't have to think that the problem doesn't exist, because i'm telling you it does. i want us to get rid of the griefing component (my major, or even main, concern). i see it happen. it's there. simple as that. good for you that you don't encounter it, but that's besides the point. i call this a matter of game design principles, and your "objections" seem too far distanced from that.

Oh, I am sorry. Because *you* say so it must be beyond contestation. Because *I* say so is completely irrelevant.

If you feel victimized in an MMO because someone stole a node from under you and it is causing you or your 6 year old emotional strife then just maybe you need to adjust your attitude and thinking towards playing in an MMO with other people.

Various people have commented that it is really a non issue. Why is this such a big deal for you? Why?

Maotti · July 2014

LrdRahvinb14a_ESO wrote: »

reggielee wrote: »

my god, I havent competed for a node in weeks. Most times no one is even gathering them anymore in the zones I have been to. I must admit that I have slowed down alot from gathering them too, once you have a stack there is no need to get more until you use that stack.

so in response to OP, no.. its fine as is.

^ This most of the botters have moved to greener pastures (AKA Wildstar-which is having a terrible botting problem right now) also players in general are quitting this game in droves.

This remind me of another game,

Oh right, TESO just a few months ago! :P

esothomas · July 2014

Haewk wrote: »

the sole reason for your change is the terrible conflict, grief and anguish caused by competition for nodes.

without the hyperbole, but yes, you got it!

Haewk wrote: »

the player will be able to gather significantly more in low level zones due to competition being removed and will be able to do this over all 8 characters on the account.

this is no different from the current situation. as long as you beat everyone else to a node, you can keep it up constantly (i'm guessing that sounds good to you, as it appears you're a farmer). competition being removed is not a critical factor here.

Haewk wrote: »

I am going to get less resources.

totally dependant on the timer value. you seem to think nodes will become rare in the proposed system. that's your own imagination.

Haewk wrote: »

As I understand it no one is making money by trading materials, you make money by refining raw materials and selling the improvement materials you get.

sure, materials. that's all i wrote. whether they're refined or not is besides the point.

Haewk wrote: »

I do wonder about your agenda though as your suggested system seems to benefit the node farmer while "solving" an issue that is so negligible in my opinion that it hardly matters.

this is confused. above, you seem to assume that node timers will yield less resources. but here, you seem to claim that farmers will gain more. which is it?!

Haewk wrote: »

Your client is not keeping track of nodes, the server is. Instead of keeping track of 1 set of nodes for all players the server now needs to keep track of nodes per character (or account). You can try and minimize the impact of this by having a fixed reset time for nodes so you don't need to keep track of a date/time stamp but only a "has been looted" flag for each node per player.

regarding the emphasis: i specifically wrote "server performance". pay attention! :P

you keep imagining there'll be a performance impact. i imagine the required tracking will be dwarfed by all the other server work being done. so the point is moot, to me.

Haewk wrote: »

Oh, I am sorry. Because *you* say so it must be beyond contestation. Because *I* say so is completely irrelevant.

but what i'm saying is exactly not up for contest: i've seen players be in competition with a less than desired outcome (negative interaction). you're free to question everying else, but this is a report, not a postulate.

Haewk wrote: »

If you feel victimized in an MMO because someone stole a node from under you and it is causing you or your 6 year old emotional strife then just maybe you need to adjust your attitude and thinking towards playing in an MMO with other people.

Various people have commented that it is really a non issue. Why is this such a big deal for you? Why?

(mind your language, this isn't shitposting territory.)
various people have commented that it is an issue, too (not that i think we should boil this down to "democracy").
and as i've already stated, it's a matter of game design principle.

you seem to be making the distinction "MMO & resource competition <> no resource competition". the "MMO" component is not unique to the former side (even though the habituality of some people place it there).

it's a "big deal" to the extent that i can write about it, defending my position. resource competition is an old MMO trope, for me. modern MMOs should not have this, especially not subscription-based ones (the example again: GW2 has no subscription fee and no resource competition either). i pay, i get, without strife. customer convenience.

Haewk · July 2014

esothomas wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

the sole reason for your change is the terrible conflict, grief and anguish caused by competition for nodes.

without the hyperbole, but yes, you got it!

Haewk wrote: »

the player will be able to gather significantly more in low level zones due to competition being removed and will be able to do this over all 8 characters on the account.

this is no different from the current situation. as long as you beat everyone else to a node, you can keep it up constantly (i'm guessing that sounds good to you, as it appears you're a farmer). competition being removed is not a critical factor here.

No, you are missing the point. A farmer cannot farm the same area on 8 characters because there is only 1 set of resources shared by all players to farm. A farmer cannot currently login character1 and collect ALL the nodes in Area1 and then login character2 and collect ALL the nodes in Area2.

Under your system they can. So YOU indicated that timers can be used to control it, my post is indicating how adjusting timers to limit the farmer instead of relying on competition adversely affects the availability of resources to higher level players where there is very little competition at the moment.

I even took the time to explain my motivation and my goals and I think I even went into enough details to illustrate that it is not made up. Not that I should have to defend myself in any way against these stupid "farmer" comments of yours while I am pointing out flaws and problems in your proposal and the best you can come up with is "you must be a farmer". Brilliant.

Haewk wrote: »

I am going to get less resources.

totally dependant on the timer value. you seem to think nodes will become rare in the proposed system. that's your own imagination.

If the amount of resources I gather using my current play style stays the same under your system then it will skyrocket for the dedicated farmer.

Unless you can explain how tuning node gathering for the dedicated farmer when competition is removed does not adversely impact on node gathering of casual play styles your comments are just noise.

Haewk wrote: »

As I understand it no one is making money by trading materials, you make money by refining raw materials and selling the improvement materials you get.

sure, materials. that's all i wrote. whether they're refined or not is besides the point.

I just explained a little bit about the current market and trading in the game as you are apparently clueless about it.

Haewk wrote: »

I do wonder about your agenda though as your suggested system seems to benefit the node farmer while "solving" an issue that is so negligible in my opinion that it hardly matters.

this is confused. above, you seem to assume that node timers will yield less resources. but here, you seem to claim that farmers will gain more. which is it?!

Reading comprehension fail.

Current system: farmer nodes = Total Nodes - Competition - Node Timer
Your system: farmer nodes = Total Nodes - Node Timer

In other words, more nodes for the farmer if constrained by account. And if it is character based the farmer can now farm 8x as many nodes in the same area.

Understand?

So YOUR answer to control the total nodes of the farmer is to adjust the timer. I explained how this affects the casual player in high end zones but that seems to have gone completely over your head.

Haewk wrote: »

Your client is not keeping track of nodes, the server is. Instead of keeping track of 1 set of nodes for all players the server now needs to keep track of nodes per character (or account). You can try and minimize the impact of this by having a fixed reset time for nodes so you don't need to keep track of a date/time stamp but only a "has been looted" flag for each node per player.

regarding the emphasis: i specifically wrote "server performance". pay attention! :P

you keep imagining there'll be a performance impact. i imagine the required tracking will be dwarfed by all the other server work being done. so the point is moot, to me.

As a software developer I would be slightly put out if I get told the system should now track 100K or even up to a million more node status maps than the single one it is currently using.

Haewk wrote: »

Oh, I am sorry. Because *you* say so it must be beyond contestation. Because *I* say so is completely irrelevant.

but what i'm saying is exactly not up for contest: i've seen players be in competition with a less than desired outcome (negative interaction). you're free to question everying else, but this is a report, not a postulate.

Haewk wrote: »

If you feel victimized in an MMO because someone stole a node from under you and it is causing you or your 6 year old emotional strife then just maybe you need to adjust your attitude and thinking towards playing in an MMO with other people.

Various people have commented that it is really a non issue. Why is this such a big deal for you? Why?

(mind your language, this isn't shitposting territory.)
various people have commented that it is an issue, too (not that i think we should boil this down to "democracy").
and as i've already stated, it's a matter of game design principle.

you seem to be making the distinction "MMO & resource competition <> no resource competition". the "MMO" component is not unique to the former side (even though the habituality of some people place it there).

it's a "big deal" to the extent that i can write about it, defending my position. resource competition is an old MMO trope, for me. modern MMOs should not have this, especially not subscription-based ones (the example again: GW2 has no subscription fee and no resource competition either). i pay, i get, without strife. customer convenience.

WoW has resource competition and subscription fees. Shall we compare its success against GW2? Can't seem to find any current statistics on player numbers for GW2.

EvE is also pretty successful with extreme competition but then that is the market it is aimed at and different genre.

Does everyone like the lack of node competition in GW2? How does it affect the amount of materials available to players? Do you have to intentionally go out of your way to farm materials you need or do you find enough during normal play?