On resource nodes and competitive gathering

esothomas

(I didn't see any topic like this, but even if there is one, it deserves being repeated, in my opinion.)

I'll be as blunt as I can, in order to save you all a long read: all resource nodes should be on a per-client basis, such that no nodes will disappear for one client due to the actions of another.

Some nodes already behave like this (various containers), but ore, flowers, chests etc. don't. It makes for some rather ridiculous player competition when it comes to accessing these nodes. This is PVE, it's not PVP - if I wanted a competitive element, I'd obviously go seek it out in PVP. But this is not the case in PVE: I'm paying money to be able to go adventuring in a fantasy world, and I don't appreciate having to consider "griefing" elements to either being denied a node, or having to deny one myself. It makes for an occasionally hostile player environment, and that is really not necessary.

It strikes me as incredibly old-fashioned to have the game world set up for this sort of gathering competition. If all nodes were instead on a client-based timer, there'd be no risk of players running afoul of each other (and might I add, node bots would not be such an incredibly huge nuissance!).

The changes would be minor. The benefits would be huge. The spirit of the PVE game would be improved (on this single point: gathering).

There's no convincing reason why this should not be the preferred implementation.

Regards,
Your friend

EDIT: It appears some people don't read this post as it was intended. See below for examples, and clarification. - Additionally, we should point out that "relog farming" would no longer be available.

Lava_Croft

No thanks. I prefer the current system.

Hadria

Nope first come first serve.

PBpsy

So we could just stay next to the rune node and log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in......................................

LrdRahvin

"Competitive gathering", huh? Don't think that'll go far as an Olympic sport. Ranks right up there with "Competitive-Synchronized-Porch-Sweeping".

Drazhar14

I agree. This is just one of the things that make me hate having other players around. As an MMO, one should enjoy having other players around. ESO has it backwards. Same thing with fighting a mob for a chest only to have another player run up and steal the chest while you have the mob distracted. I really enjoy how empty veteran zones are. Makes exploring and going into delves way more enjoyable since all the loot and monsters are still there.

esothomas

PBpsy wrote: »

etc.

guess you didn't read this:
"client-based timer"

esothomas

Drazhar14 wrote: »

This is just one of the things that make me hate having other players around. As an MMO, one should enjoy having other players around.

exactly. it's sad, and it doesn't help further a friendly gaming environment.

PBpsy

esothomas wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

etc.

guess you didn't read this:
"client-based timer"

Oh so we have to program the bot with a nice delay.
.

esothomas

PBpsy wrote: »

Oh so we have to program the bot with a nice delay.

odd comment. bots would obviously not disrupt the game world for players, so it'd be a win. they also wouldn't bring in as many resources before, due to the timer.

read, then consider, then speak.

Leafmint

PBpsy wrote: »

So we could just stay next to the rune node and log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in......................................

Think you missed a small step there

LrdRahvin

Leafmint wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

So we could just stay next to the rune node and log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in......................................

Think you missed a small step there

Uninstall?

Leafmint

LrdRahvinb14a_ESO wrote: »

Uninstall?

Not quite. Something... fundamental to resource gathering... is missing

Kaskako

If they did this they'd also have to reduce the amount of nodes. Which would affect people who farm (not only bots) in a negative manner (once again).

Imo this is a non issue.. there are so many other elements that need fixing and improving and that need to be added that meh.

esothomas

Kaskako wrote: »

If they did this they'd also have to reduce the amount of nodes

no one's saying anything about reducing the amount. timers, remember?

Kaskako wrote: »

there are so many other elements that need fixing and improving and that need to be added that meh.

that's besides the point.

Svann

FF14 has this and it makes for a more boring world.

reggielee

my god, I havent competed for a node in weeks. Most times no one is even gathering them anymore in the zones I have been to. I must admit that I have slowed down alot from gathering them too, once you have a stack there is no need to get more until you use that stack.

so in response to OP, no.. its fine as is.

LrdRahvin

reggielee wrote: »

my god, I havent competed for a node in weeks. Most times no one is even gathering them anymore in the zones I have been to. I must admit that I have slowed down alot from gathering them too, once you have a stack there is no need to get more until you use that stack.

so in response to OP, no.. its fine as is.

^ This most of the botters have moved to greener pastures (AKA Wildstar-which is having a terrible botting problem right now) also players in general are quitting this game in droves.

esothomas

- bots quitting
- players quitting

and once again, besides the point the game design ought to change regardless. a matter of principle!

Haewk

esothomas wrote: »

It strikes me as incredibly old-fashioned to have the game world set up for this sort of gathering competition. If all nodes were instead on a client-based timer, there'd be no risk of players running afoul of each other (and might I add, node bots would not be such an incredibly huge nuissance!).

Step 1: Hack client side timer
Step 2: Chain harvest the same node till inventory full
Step 3: Bank/sell
Step 4: Repeat

Client side node tracking is a gold sellers wet dream.

PBpsy

Leafmint wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

So we could just stay next to the rune node and log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in and then log off and then log in......................................

Think you missed a small step there

Why pick up your thousandth Ta when the logging in /out game is so fun?

esothomas

Haewk wrote: »

client side timer
Client side node tracking is a gold sellers wet dream.

once again, flawed reading!... i really thought i made myself clear for all x-)

it's not client side, it's "client-based". meaning, the server maintains node timers on the basis of all clients individually. just like it does with so many other things.

it's not that hard, people!

esothomas

PBpsy wrote: »

Why pick up your thousandth Ta when the logging in /out game is so fun?

actually, the relog trick wouldn't be available if all resources were timed. i think that's an added benefit of the preferred system, but it's not my point of focus. i'm just in it for the player convenience and behavior.

Haewk

esothomas wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

client side timer
Client side node tracking is a gold sellers wet dream.

once again, flawed reading!... i really thought i made myself clear for all x-)

it's not client side, it's "client-based". meaning, the server maintains node timers on the basis of all clients individually. just like it does with so many other things.

it's not that hard, people!

I think keeping track of that on the server will be a huge waste of resources. If you find the competition for resources to be too fierce go get your resources somewhere else. Its not like there are vast open ghost VR zones, is there?

Sounds more like you have a bot that has his resource spawns stolen.

esothomas

Haewk wrote: »

I think keeping track of that on the server will be a huge waste of resources.

the server is already keeping track of loads more things. this would just be reining in all the rest of the nodes for sake of consistency.

Haewk wrote: »

If you find the competition for resources to be too fierce go get your resources somewhere else. Its not like there are vast open ghost VR zones, is there?

not too fierce at all, but on every occasion where i see players briefly competing about resources, i feel the nag of the bad system.
also, the population of VR zones is besides the point (i don't even have a veteran yet).

Haewk wrote: »

Sounds more like you have a bot that has his resource spawns stolen.

this statement doesn't make sense. a bot can speed across the territory faster than any player can. they aren't really in competition with anyone (maybe themselves), they are always ahead. besides, i wouldn't be arguing for a system change that yielded less resources for bots if my agenda was what you say, would i now... (btw. maybe we should refer to these bots in the past tense, since i'm not sure the terrain clipping bots are even active anymore. haven't seen any in a long time, although that might just be due to me moving out of the lower zones, dunno.)

read, think, then comment.

Rev Rielle

I understand what you're saying, though I don't entirely agree.

Personally I'd like to see resource gathering be related more to your craft - if any - you invest skill points in. For example, if my character invested enough skill points that they can make robes with Kreshweed, then they also should successfully be able to gather Kreshweed out in the wilds. If they've not invested in the skill they should be significantly limited in their ability to do so. In it's own way that would reduce competition, as well reduce the flooding of the game with raw/refined materials (something I believe that is already becoming a bit of a problem), and finally adding to the value of skilled crafters.

It would also have the significant advantage of inhibiting bot-farmers too.

Haewk

esothomas wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

I think keeping track of that on the server will be a huge waste of resources.

the server is already keeping track of loads more things. this would just be pulling in all the rest of the nodes for sake of consistency.

Haewk wrote: »

If you find the competition for resources to be too fierce go get your resources somewhere else. Its not like there are vast open ghost VR zones, is there?

not too fierce at all, but on every occasion where i see players briefly competing about resources, i feel the nag of the bad system.
also, the population of VR zones is besides the point (i don't even have a veteran yet).

Haewk wrote: »

Sounds more like you have a bot that has his resource spawns stolen.

this statement doesn't make sense. a bot can speed across the territory faster than any player can. they aren't really in competition with anyone (maybe themselves), they are always ahead. besides, i wouldn't be arguing for a system change that yielded less resources for bots if my agenda was what you say, would i now... (btw. maybe we should refer to these bots in the past tense, since i'm not sure the terrain clipping bots are even active anymore. haven't seen any in a long time, although that might just be due to me moving out of the lower zones, dunno.)

read, think, then comment.

I'm sorry. Your logic is asinine. A bot is simply a player that is automated. If no one else can steal your spawns then you program your bot to run on a set timer because node spawns are predictable. So you just made botting *easy* and predictable. Other players cannot mess with your bot node spawns because you know they will always be up.

If the nodes are not player specific then you can run ahead of a bot and take its nodes.

How are you arguing for less resources? Take some of your own advice and think. You go from a competitive environment to a NO COMPETITION environment. How does the botter *NOT* get more resouces when there is no competition? They can even stack accounts now on the same routes BECAUSE NODES ARE PLAYER SPECIFIC which they can't do if players compete for nodes.

For someone telling everybody else to think you are really pretty bad at it.

esothomas

Haewk wrote: »

If no one else can steal your spawns then you program your bot to run on a set timer because node spawns are predictable.
[...]
Other players cannot mess with your bot node spawns because you know they will always be up.
[...]
If the nodes are not player specific then you can run ahead of a bot and take its nodes.
[...]
You go from a competitive environment to a NO COMPETITION environment. How does the botter *NOT* get more resouces when there is no competition? They can even stack accounts now on the same routes BECAUSE NODES ARE PLAYER SPECIFIC which they can't do if players compete for nodes.

- node "individuality" yields less per character in any given area than a terrain clipping bot farming an entire area. spawns are always predictable, but now there are less of them, because they're locked to the character (maybe even the account, although i'm not sure if that's necessary). also, you can't "run ahead" of terrain clipping...

- the recently added character deletion limit stops accounts from "spamming" characters (which includes bots). so with that aside - "account stacking" entails 2 considerations: one is that if bots were indeed flooding areas, they'd be more visible, and easier to detect, which self-defeats their purpose (i'm sure many of us have reported loads of bot trains). the other is that you apparently persistently underestimate the "timer" factor. for an extreme example, let's pretend all resource nodes were on a once-per-day timer - that's incredibly less than what it is now.

- "no competition" is the benefit, not the problem: the distribution of resources will no longer tip to the side of egoistic farming efforts (this is where the bot element is highly disruptive AND where player strife could be averted), and it's easier to control any given character's resource income to boot.

in short, think a bit more (and do mind your language)

ItsMeToo

I like this idea.

Haewk

esothomas wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

If no one else can steal your spawns then you program your bot to run on a set timer because node spawns are predictable.
[...]
Other players cannot mess with your bot node spawns because you know they will always be up.
[...]
If the nodes are not player specific then you can run ahead of a bot and take its nodes.
[...]
You go from a competitive environment to a NO COMPETITION environment. How does the botter *NOT* get more resouces when there is no competition? They can even stack accounts now on the same routes BECAUSE NODES ARE PLAYER SPECIFIC which they can't do if players compete for nodes.

- node "individuality" yields less per character in any given area than a terrain clipping bot farming an entire area. spawns are always predictable, but now there are less of them, because they're locked to the character (maybe even the account, although i'm not sure if that's necessary). also, you can't "run ahead" of terrain clipping...

- the recently added character deletion limit stops accounts from "spamming" characters (which includes bots). so with that aside - "account stacking" entails 2 considerations: one is that if bots were indeed flooding areas, they'd be more visible, and easier to detect, which self-defeats their purpose (i'm sure many of us have reported loads of bot trains). the other is that you apparently persistently underestimate the "timer" factor. for an extreme example, let's pretend all resource nodes were on a once-per-day timer - that's incredibly less than what it is now.

- "no competition" is the benefit, not the problem: the distribution of resources will no longer tip to the side of egoistic farming efforts (this is where the bot element is highly disruptive AND where player strife could be averted), and it's easier to control any given character's resource income to boot.

in short, think a bit more (and do mind your language)

So instead of just farming one area the bots will now farm various areas each day. Reducing available nodes impacts normal players as well. So now there are a lot less resources available which impacts the introduction of crafting materials significantly.

I also think you are vastly underestimating the resource impact of tracking node timers for every player and every account.

And lastly, I think you are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Resource nodes are plentiful. You also get plenty of resources from deconstruction. The only benefit to raw materials is the improvement materials you can gain from refining. I have very seldom had to compete for a node since a few weeks after launch except maybe in dungeons and once you get to VR level it seems people care less about competing for nodes anyway.

The last thing I want is for a reduction in the amount of raw materials I encounter doing my regular questing which will lead to a reduction in the amount of improvement materials I get from refining especially purple and gold improvements.

Irakandji

I understand the concern, I too was frustrated when the bots were really active and raw jute was ripped out from under me by invisible hands.

That being said, those were the acts of "gaming criminals". Zenimax is doing a good job of clearing them out. Which is the correct response in my opinion. To bend the game to offset criminal acts is just wrong in my opinion, as in real life appeasement has consequences that are usually negative.

To maintain value in an economy, there needs to be an element of scarcity. One consequence of the OP's solution would be the devaluation of resources and subsequently the devaluation of crafters output. As a crafter this outcome is undesirable.

For a new player, if resources hold their value, this is a good way to get started. I am not a fan of dungeon crawling just to make income, I believe there are others that feel the same way.

Oddly, I would rather compete fairly for resources. I have options if the competition is too stiff; Change areas, get better, get faster, talk to the other gatherer and work out a joint area, or do nothing, give up and rant here....