1.2: Let's Talk Templar

Ashchild · June 2014

So how are the Templar crusadors finding their latest evolution?

Whether you're a healer, dps or tank, I'm curious to hear your observations.

I'll start by noting that the new healing morph to Puncturing Strikes (I payed 14K to respec from biting jabs for this morph) - is incredible! My health just seems to shoot straight up if I aim it at a group. I'm deciding what my permadeath character should be - I initially considered DK, but now I'm considering Templar.

I can imagine this being amazing for Templar tanks.

Axer · June 2014

I was ultra nerfed this patch.

Notes are plain lies. Every piece of armor I use was nerfed, my best ultimate was severely nerfed.

Puncturing strikes is a horrible skill, ever after the update. Using it on a tank is a death ticket. You cannot block during channeled abilities, thus it's just plain suicide to use it versus any hard bosses. Meanwhile every single ability a DK tank uses for dps allows you to be fully blocking for the entire animation.

The minor boost to biting jabs was just that, minor. Templars remain the worst dps class in the game by a large margin.

So yea, this update was amazing, amazingly bad for my templar tank.

Natjur · June 2014

Puncturing strikes is good for solo leveling, but no good group tanking as you can not block.
The rest was small dps changes, but still its a start and hard for the Dev's to balance.
So the current changes are good for those still leveling their templar, but those at end game with the group only runs, not so great.

traigusb14_ESO2 · June 2014

The boost to the shards Dot helps me out a bunch. Rest of the skills don't change anything for me much.

tplink3r1 · June 2014

a lot better

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqxFqCidqxw
no other major change for my build except for puncturing sweep and empowering sweep.

Ashchild · June 2014

Thanks for sharing that video.

It seems undeniable we've gained an increase in survivability. Whether or not that is enough is a matter of contention. :P

(Just a side tangent for my own personal interest: Does this make the Templar rival the DK's when it comes to surviving (not tanking) large numbers of mobs? Could they handle that many vr enemies? :P)

traigusb14_ESO2 · June 2014

Oh yeah forgot sweeps because I was leveling another ultimate. It was good before... it is sooo much better now.

Between this and my last post, I Heavy armor tanked 3 craiglorn dungeons (VR 11 with VR 9 gear (mostly blue+).

Died 1 time due to getting stuck on furniture. Should be even better when I get all my VR12 gear together.

Utildai · June 2014

I don't have any issues using Puncturing Strikes while tanking, I just make sure it is directly after a boss move and I move to the side, or the back if I can to use the skill then reposition to the front.... it takes a lot of headache off the healer now....

Woolenthreads · June 2014

I have two Templars, One is S&B and the other is an Argonian Healer, so the Puncturing sweep sounds quite good to me - for the Healer

grizzbi · June 2014

Well, Puncturing Sweep is interesting. The dps is ok, the heal is good and it scales with damage and the number of targets. It should help many templar, new to VR content, to survive solo. That's already a good thing.

Problem is: we are now a one trick poney.

The few of us- myself included- who won't want to include this skill as a main source of damage and surviving skill won't have any other good option for melee. Blazing shield seems to do less damage than before the patch from my testing. They probably fixed a bug..And the other abilities are still too expensive, without any resource management, to have a good Return over Investment.

So, templar are now "fixed" with one single powerful ability. Templar will just use it and abuse it, spamming it all day. And ZO can be satisfied...

Most templar will think it's awesome. I think it's very bad news, because I prefer diversity and versatility.

I would prefer puncturing sweep to be toned down a little and get a way to regain magicka. But I suppose it's too late...

Ashchild · June 2014

grizzbi wrote: »

I would prefer puncturing sweep to be toned down a little and get a way to regain magicka. But I suppose it's too late...

Maybe that's something for the Dawn's Wrath tree. I think i like Aedric tree where it is now. It's very much a melee orientated tree, with close up combat in mind (including the passives.)

JamilaRaj · June 2014

It might have been due to lag or current FPS drop issue, but on a few occasions, it seemed to me I have been knocked down while channeling Rite of Passage despite now in-built CC immunity (I normally use Immovable before RoP, but skipped it - why needlessly waste stamina, right?). So, improvement welcomed, but...

Also on a few occasions, after attacking with Focused/Toppling Charge (which has not been changed, bar tooltip), I was unable to use ability nor block, nor just hit the other player for a few seconds, though I was able to move (or rather run around in panic). Again, I can imagine cause is something more general then just skill or class, but at the moment, this is disruptive for how I play the class.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · June 2014

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

Oh yeah forgot sweeps because I was leveling another ultimate. It was good before... it is sooo much better now.

Between this and my last post, I Heavy armor tanked 3 craiglorn dungeons (VR 11 with VR 9 gear (mostly blue+).

Died 1 time due to getting stuck on furniture. Should be even better when I get all my VR12 gear together.

Can we have your build & gear please?

Assuming you used Heavy armour & Weapon and didn't went down with Light armour and Destro staff.

Accept apologies for my cynicism, however many wrote here the same claim, but when we actually got their builds they were Staff & 5 LA / 2HA builds.

Rev Rielle · June 2014

I don't use much of the Aedric Spear line as yet, so can't really comment on that. But I can say that Solar Disturbance is wonderful for my character in VR zones. I enjoyed and used it before, but now, I really notice the increased potency of it. It's great.

Axer · June 2014

Melee in this game , especially at endgame is near suicide.

I think im gonna up a video of how insane it is to melee the final boss of vr crypt of hearts. I can do it, but its retardedly hard compared to range.

Given the massive risk of death and difficulty of it, our main melee skill should be MASSIVELY better dps then ranged. Currently it's still quite inferior to what DK/Sors and even NB can do with a destro at a very long and safe range. Or even resto for sorc (crystal frags).

I really donr get it. This happened in some other mmos I played too. Everyone ranges, and range does more.

Its just stupid game balance.

Melee = risk.

Balance the game against risk and reward. Stop rewarding the cowards.

Biting jabs can ONLY be fixed by allowing us to block while its being channeled, along with another +10% dmg. Othwise I still cannot use it without putting myself at too grave risk.

As yea you can interupt it SORT OF with a timed block. But the game just doesnt give a ***, you just die sometimes. Perfect timing , I just die. Its too lagged/bugged and with zero invuln frame roll dodge, melee are already near suicide in the hardest content anyways.

Lynx7386 · June 2014

I wouldnt really agree that melee should do "massively" more damage than ranged. Ultimately, I think that the damage output should be similar.

However, Melee should offer significantly improved survivability. Wearing medium or heavy armor should make you -much- tougher than light armor. Parrying/blocking with melee weapons or shields should cost far less and absorb far greater damage than when blocking with a bow. The cost of blocking, dodging, CC break, and interrupt should be significantly reduced for anyone wielding a melee weapon and using medium or heavy armor.

danno8 · June 2014

Axer wrote: »

Melee in this game , especially at endgame is near suicide.

I think im gonna up a video of how insane it is to melee the final boss of vr crypt of hearts. I can do it, but its retardedly hard compared to range.

Given the massive risk of death and difficulty of it, our main melee skill should be MASSIVELY better dps then ranged. Currently it's still quite inferior to what DK/Sors and even NB can do with a destro at a very long and safe range. Or even resto for sorc (crystal frags).

I really donr get it. This happened in some other mmos I played too. Everyone ranges, and range does more.

Its just stupid game balance.

Melee = risk.

Balance the game against risk and reward. Stop rewarding the cowards.

Biting jabs can ONLY be fixed by allowing us to block while its being channeled, along with another +10% dmg. Othwise I still cannot use it without putting myself at too grave risk.

As yea you can interupt it SORT OF with a timed block. But the game just doesnt give a ***, you just die sometimes. Perfect timing , I just die. Its too lagged/bugged and with zero invuln frame roll dodge, melee are already near suicide in the hardest content anyways.

That's one thing that GW2 got right. Every class has a melee option and melee ALWAYS does more damage than ranged.

I also agree with you on the instant cast vs channeled/cast time. The fact that you can block while using instant cast abilities is a huge boon for them.

If this is the way it is to stay, then nearly all melee abilities should be instant and all ranged abilities should be a channel/cast time, with some small exceptions for very strong or beneficial melee and very weak/utility ranged.

The Puncturing Sweep change is nice, but it is also almost entirely necessary as it leaves you wide open to cc and raw damage.

Brandoid · June 2014

Idared wrote: »

It might have been due to lag or current FPS drop issue, but on a few occasions, it seemed to me I have been knocked down while channeling Rite of Passage despite now in-built CC immunity (I normally use Immovable before RoP, but skipped it - why needlessly waste stamina, right?). So, improvement welcomed, but...

Also on a few occasions, after attacking with Focused/Toppling Charge (which has not been changed, bar tooltip), I was unable to use ability nor block, nor just hit the other player for a few seconds, though I was able to move (or rather run around in panic). Again, I can imagine cause is something more general then just skill or class, but at the moment, this is disruptive for how I play the class.

I've been bashed out of the channel.

traigusb14_ESO2 · June 2014

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

Oh yeah forgot sweeps because I was leveling another ultimate. It was good before... it is sooo much better now.

Between this and my last post, I Heavy armor tanked 3 craiglorn dungeons (VR 11 with VR 9 gear (mostly blue+).

Died 1 time due to getting stuck on furniture. Should be even better when I get all my VR12 gear together.

Can we have your build & gear please?

Assuming you used Heavy armour & Weapon and didn't went down with Light armour and Destro staff.

Accept apologies for my cynicism, however many wrote here the same claim, but when we actually got their builds they were Staff & 5 LA / 2HA builds.

Sure.

Orc templar (Currently VR 11)
(using fishy sticks and white glyphs. don't have VR5 purple food scrolls, and my enchanting is only 37)

Note: while i'm writing these down ... on Wabba I have Emperor Alliance bonus (+5 health per char level) and Defensive scroll bonus (+ 5% armor)

M:21
H:16
S:12

M:1770
H:2484
S:1892
Spell Dam:90
SRes: 1731
Weapon Dam: 135
Armor: 2021(O)
MR: 84 (O)
HR: 52 (O) (63 with radiant aura)
SR: 67 (goes overcharged 95 when I use radiant aura)

Mundus: Atronauch (MR)

Jewlery:
R:28 block reduction +sta
R:28 block reduction +sta
N:15 MR + sta

Armor 7 H (blue)+ shield (purple) (all VR9) (white glyphs mixed health, magica, sta) Mix of infused, impenitrable, and devines.

Sets: (5) Hist bark (20% chance of passive dodge while blocking + 350 disease resistance) (3) Whitestrakes (237 DS evey 10 secs if under 30% health)

Weapon1: 1H axe purple (sharpened, going to switch to more defensive at VR12) + flame enchant

Weapon 2: maul (for training quest turn ins only)

Skills:
General Build:
Deep Slash (replace with Ransack or Inner beast while grouping)
Extended Ritual - neg effects and HOT big circle
Honor the Dead - even with busted % bonus I like it.
Damage / utility slot: Usually Blazing spear for solo and Absorb magic for group (+8% mitigation and -8% block cost for slotting, changed basic spell attacks vs me into heals), but can be strikes, unstable core or whatever, depends on group
Radiant Aura: sta + helth regen for slotted, +++ sta + health regen on group for use.

passives: All templar, all orc, all 1H/ Shield, all 2H, all heavy armor, all soul magic, all fighters guild, mages guild, persuade and magica controller (for if I use inner light in utility)

I have unlocked and leveled pretty much all the actives in the above trees as well (except mages guild). Have a few fighters guild slotted for leveling, and am now working on the pvp skill lines.

In my default build I beat ALL of the VR solo content except VR9 whispmother, VR10 Hadran and healer, VR 10 cave tunnel packed with astros, and what's her name Tharn and her twin (though she had a cloning bug at the time, I could have beaten 1 of her).

Mind you, it isn't easy, and it isn't fast. I need ~20 secs between dungeon fights to get my wind back, I can't sprint/facroll like light tanks with unlimited mana.

Got jumped last night in Cyrodil (with my default build) while doing quests to grind up VR12. Held off a NB and a DK for over 1:30 min before finally running out of sta and going down, and they were working together... at least after I survived the quick gank.

I'm saying it works, not that it is the fastest, best or otherwise awesome. It is probably much closer the balance line than OP bathrobe casters. I'd love some sta buffs, regen and or more benefits to Heavy Armor.

I also can't wait for VR12 so I can upgrade my stuff. Have enough mats for all purple stuff, and some orange /purple glyphs.

Francescolg · July 2014

Guys, when playing VR content alone it makes sense not go for Light Armor if you don't want to spam volcanic rune all the time vs. melee. For melee you need highter armor/dmg mitigation. So find out how to get the right buffs / equipment.

Some light armor buffs do not apply in-combat state, given that reggen timers are working different in combat mode. So just try heavy armor or push up your armor value, that helps for heavy strikes 1500+!

Get Wykkyd's outfitter and put heavy armor on F1, light armor on F2 and so on. Or try getting sets that buff % dmg-inc (pvp set). There are many ways to reduce damage effectively. Find out what is best for you

jesterstear · July 2014

Puncturing sweep now heals you, does a little more damage. I suppose because it's the skill a lot of Templars spam, this is the one they buff. I'm kind of a tank/offhealer though, so it's never been part of my playstyle, though I recently purchased it as I was having problems in vet content.

Though I have now given up on heavy armour , I still don't have much Magicka at all so I'm not yet in the caster/dps mould. I've found that with Rune Focus and Force Syphon buffs the heal becomes very good indeed, but it's still a wasteful use of magicka if you're already on full health. I can see how a rune focus/force syphon resto staff build with volcanic rune + regen would be insane for solo though.

I suppose the fact that the Magikca DPS/CC paradigm is the only way to go in vet content no matter your class indicates that balance issues go beyond problems with class skills and into armour passives and weapon skills.

But something they could do to make me able to solo much better as a self healing , sword and board tank IS FIX HONOUR THE DEAD ALREADY.

Seriously, if only it did what it said on the tooltip. In fact they could nerf the power restore a bit, so long as it kicked in at 50% like the tooltip said (and was stackable?). I've tried hard to make it work, really hogging health like crazy, but it still means letting yourself get dangerously low to proc the power return.

As it stands, you can either

1) ignore the power return proc, if you're in heavy armour this means frequent deaths from running out of power

2) try to heal at 720 health or less out of a 2400 max, to proc the power return, and die if you miss a single power attack from one of the 3 mobs you're fighting, or hit a spot of lag.

dodgehopper_ESO · July 2014

I agree that Templar could still use a few balances. I think it would be interesting if they gave the Templar a higher magnitude passive buff to Weapon damage than it currently has. It seems the class was designed to rely more on weapon attacks, but it just needs more power behind it, and other classes do it better as well as get better power return. Other possible things that could balance us would be to give us greater magicka regen as people always say, but I don't think this is absolutely necessary if other elements of the class are buffed in the right way. I'm fine with Templar being unique but equal, functioning in a different manner than other classes.

It could just be me, but looking at our classes I got the sense we were meant to be a more Weapon based class. With restoration staff we were meant to be the purist healer/priest type. In this form our weapon attacks were meant to hit harder than most and therefore give good healing returns and recharge us to fire our class heals. The problem is our boost to weapon damage is rather minimal. Our spell resistance is certainly nice, though might could use a slight boost, or we could use some Damage Resistance. I'm fine with the Templar class underperforming for DPS and playing support role, but I think it needs to be made up with greater resiliency. Right now most resiliency of any character comes from Magicka which is why people who play Templars are upset about the low magicka regen. I think there are ways around the issue that are most certainly thematic to the class.

Its clear to me that they are trying to take a measured approach to balance the Templar, likely for fear that our heals could simply become too overpowering.

CaptainSilverbrow · July 2014

Ashchild wrote: »

Thanks for sharing that video.

It seems undeniable we've gained an increase in survivability. Whether or not that is enough is a matter of contention.

It's not, but it's a start, and I'd love to see the design philosophy informing the Empowering Sweep and Jabs revisions blossom and take root further throughout our skill and passives repertoire. I'm thinking of making a feedback/suggestions thread for sharing some of the ideas conking around upstairs with support and better survivability in mind. At the moment, we're only better when we have a TON of enemy NPCs to Jabs and Sweep until magicka's depleted. Three enemies at once is actually tougher for me than eleven (in Craglorn) We're... eh, getting there. We've yet to arrive, but we're getting there.