Why very few people are doing dungeons and end game.

Sleevez340 · June 2014

If you look at what this game proceeds... DAoC. It was a PvP game with some PvE filler. ESO has taken on that model, as much as ppl will argue that all elder scrolls games are pve, and story.. ESO has a system where you and your friends can take part in destroying and holding castles, over an absolutely enormous landscape. The crafting system is finally important, and on par with the best items in the game.

And all the while, you want it to jump on the monetary band wagon, please everyone. Give everyone what they want.

Here is a list of a few things that make this game THE BEST GAME EVER for me.

No battlegrounds/Arena - (Bgs and the like is pvp for children without the attention spam to be apart of a group, and or just a means for ppl to farm points of some sort which is ridiculous)

Not a single auction house per an entire alliance - This encourages interaction between players instead of just visiting the AH everytime you wants something. Brings a bit of social trade, and talking can make friends.

Siege warfare - Now dont get me wrong, i think tweaks are needed to make the seiging more realistic. Maybe making siege equipment WAY more expensive. Since everyone has 5 ballistas in their pocket. (one of the reasons DAOC had crazy hard pvp was that siege equip was hard to come by and took alot of planning to execute a good atk)

A crafting system that matters - Crafting is important. Sets are amazing for your character, and not many are good, but the ones that are good are really great. And theyre made by you and me. And that is a feeling of pride knowing you can be that helpful for someone else, or even yourself. And it takes time. You cant just lvl your crafting in a day because you spent $300 on ESOGOLDNOW.com.
Because you still need to put time into the traits.

A system msg saying "Were destroying bots now plz msg" - Wow you mean they actually care about botters destroying the community and economy? Amazing.

The limited use, but vast amount of skills - Instead of giving you 50 skills, and saying you can use 45 of them, they give you 50+ skills and say you can only use 5 of them.. This is the only way to make truly unique encounters vs other players. Albeit many ppl crowd around the same skills based on class. But you still have the option to be very creative.

Vampire/Werewolf - Choosing to be weak to something specific for a few little gains, effectively giving you an engaging way to be immersed and role play. This is just a great addition.

Everyone can stealth - This is something that has been missing from MMO's for years now. EVERYONE wants to stealth in mmo pvp. But its usually up to one class, and that class without a doubt is usually over populated at least once throughout the games history. Simply because its the only effective way to pick on ppl under your terms. No one wants to fight on other ppls terms. They want to be the decider. Well thank you ZOS for this amazing addition, because you made everyone happy with this. And im sure ppl dont even think about this anymore, its largely taken for granted.

These are just the small things off the top of my head. Im sure if i thought long enough, i could find MANY more reasons.

Laura · June 2014

Sleevez340 wrote: »

If you look at what this game proceeds... DAoC. It was a PvP game with some PvE filler. ESO has taken on that model, as much as ppl will argue that all elder scrolls games are pve, and story.. ESO has a system where you and your friends can take part in destroying and holding castles, over an absolutely enormous landscape. The crafting system is finally important, and on par with the best items in the game.

And all the while, you want it to jump on the monetary band wagon, please everyone. Give everyone what they want.

Here is a list of a few things that make this game THE BEST GAME EVER for me.

No battlegrounds/Arena - (Bgs and the like is pvp for children without the attention spam to be apart of a group, and or just a means for ppl to farm points of some sort which is ridiculous)

Not a single auction house per an entire alliance - This encourages interaction between players instead of just visiting the AH everytime you wants something. Brings a bit of social trade, and talking can make friends.

Siege warfare - Now dont get me wrong, i think tweaks are needed to make the seiging more realistic. Maybe making siege equipment WAY more expensive. Since everyone has 5 ballistas in their pocket. (one of the reasons DAOC had crazy hard pvp was that siege equip was hard to come by and took alot of planning to execute a good atk)

A crafting system that matters - Crafting is important. Sets are amazing for your character, and not many are good, but the ones that are good are really great. And theyre made by you and me. And that is a feeling of pride knowing you can be that helpful for someone else, or even yourself. And it takes time. You cant just lvl your crafting in a day because you spent $300 on ESOGOLDNOW.com.
Because you still need to put time into the traits.

A system msg saying "Were destroying bots now plz msg" - Wow you mean they actually care about botters destroying the community and economy? Amazing.

The limited use, but vast amount of skills - Instead of giving you 50 skills, and saying you can use 45 of them, they give you 50+ skills and say you can only use 5 of them.. This is the only way to make truly unique encounters vs other players. Albeit many ppl crowd around the same skills based on class. But you still have the option to be very creative.

Vampire/Werewolf - Choosing to be weak to something specific for a few little gains, effectively giving you an engaging way to be immersed and role play. This is just a great addition.

Everyone can stealth - This is something that has been missing from MMO's for years now. EVERYONE wants to stealth in mmo pvp. But its usually up to one class, and that class without a doubt is usually over populated at least once throughout the games history. Simply because its the only effective way to pick on ppl under your terms. No one wants to fight on other ppls terms. They want to be the decider. Well thank you ZOS for this amazing addition, because you made everyone happy with this. And im sure ppl dont even think about this anymore, its largely taken for granted.

These are just the small things off the top of my head. Im sure if i thought long enough, i could find MANY more reasons.

very nice and elaborate but I don't think anyone was arguing with the merits of the core game. I love this game for a lot of the same reasons you do.

I pvp all the time too but the writing on the wall says that there is only one active campaign.

A lot of people play this game for PvE and I don't think focusing entirely on pvp is sustainable.

It is, in fact, elder scrolls and the argument that it shouldn't focus on pvp is asinine I absolutely agree but saying they shouldn't focus on pve as well is equally as asinine. I wont say that is the case for Camelot unchained that game will be (and should be) completely focused on PvP but it is absolutely fair to expect substantial pve content in an elder scrolls MMO.

Milanna · June 2014

I find it odd the OP does not simply ask why so few people (in her opinion) do dungeons. No single person can possibly know why "very few people are doing dungeons and endgame".

My answer is: I can not find the will to continue leveling in VR. I am experiencing that content on an alt.

Laura · June 2014

Milanna wrote: »

I find it odd the OP does not simply ask why so few people (in her opinion) do dungeons. No single person can possibly know why "very few people are doing dungeons and endgame".

My answer is: I can not find the will to continue leveling in VR. I am experiencing that content on an alt.

I did ask several times. Why do you find it odd?

My observations are based on people who actively entered the game for PvE raiding and dungeons. Five guilds literally all created for this purpose.

2 "main" guilds and 3 "mega sort of pick up" guilds

I ask frequently and I have asked on these forums frequently. There is the odd answer like yours but this is primarily about people who have begun these things and stopped abruptly not those that haven't even started.

I thought that was perfectly clear (and has been thus far in the thread) so I apologize if it wasn't.

I think it goes without saying that if you post something on a public forum that people are open to give there own opinions on the matter.

Milanna · June 2014

Laura wrote: »

Milanna wrote: »

I find it odd the OP does not simply ask why so few people (in her opinion) do dungeons. No single person can possibly know why "very few people are doing dungeons and endgame".

My answer is: I can not find the will to continue leveling in VR. I am experiencing that content on an alt.

I did ask several times. Why do you find it odd?

My observations are based on people who actively entered the game for PvE raiding and dungeons. Five guilds literally all created for this purpose.

2 "main" guilds and 3 "mega sort of pick up" guilds

I ask frequently and I have asked on these forums frequently. There is the odd answer like yours but this is primarily about people who have begun these things and stopped abruptly not those that haven't even started.

I thought that was perfectly clear (and has been thus far in the thread) so I apologize if it wasn't.

And I feel I was perfectly clear in why I found it odd.
I apologize if I wasn´t.

Laura · June 2014

Milanna wrote: »

Laura wrote: »

Milanna wrote: »

I find it odd the OP does not simply ask why so few people (in her opinion) do dungeons. No single person can possibly know why "very few people are doing dungeons and endgame".

My answer is: I can not find the will to continue leveling in VR. I am experiencing that content on an alt.

I did ask several times. Why do you find it odd?

My observations are based on people who actively entered the game for PvE raiding and dungeons. Five guilds literally all created for this purpose.

2 "main" guilds and 3 "mega sort of pick up" guilds

I ask frequently and I have asked on these forums frequently. There is the odd answer like yours but this is primarily about people who have begun these things and stopped abruptly not those that haven't even started.

I thought that was perfectly clear (and has been thus far in the thread) so I apologize if it wasn't.

And I feel I was perfectly clear in why I found it odd.
I apologize if I wasn´t.

Because you think I have an agenda?

No it really isn't. Sorry.

Milanna · June 2014

Laura wrote: »

Because you think I have an agenda?

No it really isn't. Sorry.

No... because and I quote: "No single person can possibly know why "very few people are doing dungeons and endgame"."

It was all very confusing for you. I do apologize.

KariTR · June 2014

It takes months of dedicated research to make the best sets, it is only right these sets are the best in game.

I wouldn't mind a raid dungeon where the end reward was access to unique set crafting stations though. That would encourage real collaboration between different types of players rather than just take the guy along who has the best dps parse.

ETA: You could also add similar to the PvP map, where factions can fight over control of the crafting hall. This would also encourage PvE focussed players to be more involved in their faction's war, even if they don't actively PvP themselves.

Laura · June 2014

Milanna wrote: »

Laura wrote: »

Because you think I have an agenda?

No it really isn't. Sorry.

No... because and I quote: "No single person can possibly know why "very few people are doing dungeons and endgame"."

It was all very confusing for you. I do apologize.

No more confused than you were, right?

I stated my point introduced my evidence nobody misunderstood but you. Obviously it was brought up for discussion and have stated several times throughout the thread that people brought up valid points in addition to mine (difference being they did it respectfully)

You knew you were being snide to begin with there was no need for that.

SilverWF · June 2014

"Why very few people are doing dungeons and end game"

No any single reason in this
I have crafted gear, I don't need anything else. Especially wasting my time with some randoms in dungeons.

Laura · June 2014

SilverWF wrote: »

"Why very few people are doing dungeons and end game"

No any single reason in this
I have crafted gear, I don't need anything else. Especially wasting my time with some randoms in dungeons.

I absolutely agree with you and it is part of my point. Others have stated great ideas on how it could be done without gear being in the equation maybe I should edit with those ideas.

Milanna · June 2014

Laura wrote: »

No more confused than you were, right?

I stated my point introduced my evidence nobody misunderstood but you. Obviously it was brought up for discussion and have stated several times throughout the thread that people brought up valid points in addition to mine (difference being they did it respectfully)

You knew you were being snide to begin with there was no need for that.

I am not going to keep arguing with you. I think you would be better of asking why instead of assuming. But do as you please.

Trayyacakes · June 2014

KariTR wrote: »

It takes months of dedicated research to make the best sets, it is only right these sets are the best in game.

I wouldn't mind a raid dungeon where the end reward was access to unique set crafting stations though. That would encourage real collaboration between different types of players rather than just take the guy along who has the best dps parse.

ETA: You could also add similar to the PvP map, where factions can fight over control of the crafting hall. This would also encourage PvE focussed players to be more involved in their faction's war, even if they don't actively PvP themselves.

^This

If there isn't an amazing set bonus that can only be crafted in the Imperial City if/when it drops then ZOS missed yet another opportunity.

As for why a lot of people don't do end game dungeons and trials, a huge part of it is the balance is sooo bad.

Some people refuse to go dress and stick. I for one have always been a tank. The tank role in this game is trivial. Tanking four mans and trial trash is way more fun for me than tanking the bosses. Trash you have to work a little to control/cc and interrupt the spread out mobs. There is nothing to tanking any of the bosses. Just have the right numbers taunt hold down RMB and there you go you are tanking. Yes good tanks will try to help the trial by doing as much dps as they can blabla, but it's lame.

Positioning is not a key thing tanking trials. There is no need for a tank swap ever. Agro is just clicking one button every 12s-15s. Name one somewhat unique element in either of the trials besides them being timed.

I will say that I enjoyed the mechanics in Veteran Crypt of Hearts though. That was a good time. Lots of things going on.

Then there is also the shear grind of Veteran Content.

A big draw of this game is also the PVP which could deal with some improvements as well, but that is another topic, and not what your question asked.

Sakiri · June 2014

ShADoW0s wrote: »

I think right now the mats are just way to easy to get. I would be ok with high end mats coming from dungeons, instead of people just farming hearling mail everyday.

As someone that hates running dungeons in this game and has all crafts pretty much maxed out, No.

This would be some serious bull crap.

Tired of my top end crafting being locked behind group/raid content.

Sakiri · June 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Games that offer the gear treadmill with dungeons, raids and vendor loot just don't last long. WOW is the best example for this, people are bored with the game, bored with doing dungeons and raids every time they log on, hunting loot that they might never even see drop ... its just a horrible system and the loss of 6 Million subs speaks for itself..

Well of course you're being over-simplistic in order to try to make a point, clearly some of those were a result what you're asserting, many (probably most) weren't anything to do with it.

However, the fact remains that WOW subs are probably half what they were at peak.

However, the fact also remains that even now they far more players paying to play than ZOS, Turbine, Trion, Anet, etc. etc. can even dream of.

Those companies would LOVE to have that many paying customers.

If people are bored with wow it's because they've been playing it for 10 years.

That's why I'm bored with it.

Running those dungeons and raids for gear wasn't it. If games where you had to run dungeons for loot didn't last long, none of the games that have been around for a decade would be around still.

The reason wow subs are half of what they are at peak is again it's age. Every product in history has a shelf life. Wow's plateau was in Wrath of the Lich king. It's in slow decline.

Why? Because it's old.

Nothing more.

kitsinni · June 2014

I can see the argument for the people who don't like dungeons and are in to crafting, and I can see the argument for the people who are bored to tears with the game and want a reason for people to do stuff.

How about make it so you need 8 traits in an item to upgrade it to gold, 6 to purple, 4 to blue or something like that. Make it so you can open a trade window and upgrade someone's equipment for them without trading it. Still keep set bonuses good but make comparable sets from dungeons. That way there will still be a market for crafted gear, dungeon runners have something to do and even if you loot something from a dungeon you need a crafter that has researched the equipment to upgrade it all the way.

SilverWF · June 2014

Yeah, if they will put some top gear (or mats for it) into dungeons only - this will be the worst thing they ever made.

Tavore1138 · June 2014

The problem as always here is trying to satisfy at least two markets - TES people and MMO people, although there is some crossover.

If the best loot comes from crafters then the dungeon folks feel that they aren't getting rewarded for playing dungeons.

If the best loot comes from dungeons then crafters have precious little incentive to spend the absurd quantity of time & refining that it takes to find enough gold mats for even one piece of gear let alone a full set, assuming you didn't cheat. Plus they become obsolete as their kit falls behind the curve.

So how do you reward both?

Make a bunch of interesting sets with some powers of a roughly similar level and put some in crafting and others in dungeons? Check.

Add dyes based on in game achievements so you can show your prowess by dying your gear? Coming soon? Check.

Giving gold mats as dungeon rewards is cheap and belittles the effort needed by crafters to get them - hirelings don't drop them very often and it takes a minimum 8 per item if you have maxed your crafting and you guys want them for a 10 minute repeatable dungeon dive... yeah right, whatever...

Idea for people to hate on...

Make us cooperate - how about crafters can learn the dropped sets but only if they either hunt them down or get a FULL set from a dungeon diver... but once researched crafters can make that set in any level with the traits/runes the diver wants to perfect the set to his/her play style.

Want a set of VR12 Immortal Warrior gear with critical hit traits and gold magicka runes? Want that heavy armour set bonus in a medium set? Gotta work as a team...

Want to be able to make the full range of sets and be the best crafter? Gotta work as a team...

And for the solo folk, you get to do a bit of both or pay premium prices to dungeon divers who get happy 'cos they have a bigger bank balance to buy more horses...

The only thing that I personally am keen on is that crafting maintains a value, golden gear should come with a cost in time & effort not be dropped at random.

martinhpb16_ESO · June 2014

Sleevez340 wrote: »

If you look at what this game proceeds... DAoC. It was a PvP game with some PvE filler. ESO has taken on that model, as much as ppl will argue that all elder scrolls games are pve, and story.. ESO has a system where you and your friends can take part in destroying and holding castles, over an absolutely enormous landscape. The crafting system is finally important, and on par with the best items in the game.

And all the while, you want it to jump on the monetary band wagon, please everyone. Give everyone what they want.

Here is a list of a few things that make this game THE BEST GAME EVER for me.

No battlegrounds/Arena - (Bgs and the like is pvp for children without the attention spam to be apart of a group, and or just a means for ppl to farm points of some sort which is ridiculous)

Not a single auction house per an entire alliance - This encourages interaction between players instead of just visiting the AH everytime you wants something. Brings a bit of social trade, and talking can make friends.

Gotta disagree with you on these two.

I'm no great dueller but small scale action brings a totally different element to pvp. I'm not very good at it but when I have done it its been fun. Also why limit content to those that want it just because you don't like it and why refer to them as children?. People asked for arenas, they should be able to have it as it dos not impact on those that don't want it. It also encourages that social interaction you claim comes from having no AH.

No AH for me is one of the worst aspects of ESO. Gimped economy and hours wasted trying to sell and buy. It also gimps selling from crafting.

martinhpb16_ESO · June 2014

I'm a crafter and I don't do dungeons, so I should be able to have the best gear and I don't care that people who do like dungeons have no decent rewards for the effort they put in, because the way they play is wrong.

-sarcasm off-

SilverWF · June 2014

Yeah, AH would be nice. GW2 have the same AH common for all 50+ servers!

Just imagine: we will have one single AH for both US and EU servers and same for all factions!
How many great goods we will have, how many customers we will have?! Amazing!

But now we have only spam in the chat and tons of worthless "trade" guilds. And still not able to buy or sell everything we want to...

Tavore1138 · June 2014

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

I'm a crafter and I don't do dungeons, so I should be able to have the best gear and I don't care that people who do like dungeons have no decent rewards for the effort they put in, because the way they play is wrong.

-sarcasm off-

In the same vein...

I am a dungeon diver and I don't want to spend time hunting materials or learning a craft so I should be able to have the best gear simply from going around hitting things a few times and I don't care if people who take the time to craft and collect materials have no decent rewards for the effort they put in, etc.

/end sarcasm

Or you could seek a solution that works for both types of player?

bugulu · June 2014

KariTR wrote: »

It takes months of dedicated research to make the best sets, it is only right these sets are the best in game.

I wouldn't mind a raid dungeon where the end reward was access to unique set crafting stations though. That would encourage real collaboration between different types of players rather than just take the guy along who has the best dps parse.

ETA: You could also add similar to the PvP map, where factions can fight over control of the crafting hall. This would also encourage PvE focussed players to be more involved in their faction's war, even if they don't actively PvP themselves.

The first part would have been true if the crafted items would be bound to your character. Now when plenty of people actually have 8 trait set (which is hardly the best anyway, twilight/willow's path and Hist Bark are proof of that), why should that still be the best gear in game?

I am not sure of the raid dungeon or PvP idea. I don't want to force people to do something just so they can get a certain set item. That would be too much like the good old grind system in WoW.

What I do want is an incentive to keep repeating the dungeons over and over again.

Perhaps the crafted set drops in dungeons as well but in a complete different racial style that's currently not obtainable. That way, people that don't do these dungeons will not be in a disadvantage (the stats will be the same), only the appearance of the gear will change.

aipex8_ESO · June 2014

I personally really like soloing delves and doing 4 person dungeons, the problem is there is no reason to redo them after getting the achievement and skyshard. I have only done a couple of the 4 person delves in Craglorn because once a person does one there's no reason to go back, so it's hard to get a group together. A couple ideas:

Chance to get cool loot. It doesn't have to be uber armor/weapons that will invalidate crafters (I love crafting my own stuff and choosing the traits, sets, and enchants), but could be additional motifs, costumes, pets, etc. Maybe even special glyphs that allow a second less powerful enchantment to be placed on your items. Even just purple and yellow crafting mats would be a great reason to redo delves. Perhaps the rare loot is only on the boss if you are doing the daily quest (see next point), so people don't just farm the boss.

Repeatable quests (perhaps daily). This would give people another option for leveling and would also be a source of income and skill leveling XP for those at VR12. Doing repeatable quests in all VR delves would be my end game if that was available as I still prefer solo play. I'd also like to do VR versions of the delves in my own faction, so make the normal/VR dungeon selector work for delves and make the home faction delves VR11-12.

Halrloprillalar · June 2014

running the new dungeon (without any guide whatsoever) and spending about 10 soul gems while only getting back maybe 5, spending about 1k on repair while getting back... maybe 100?
Crappy set item greens and a blue, and a bunch of whites or other junk.

@ZOS: Explain to me why I should enjoy or continue doing this?

yodased · June 2014

FYI this is not a raid grinding game. Just making sure that is known.

Never has been, never was designed to be, never will be. This is not that game, if you want that game go to that game.

Like 20 threads a day about this and other asinine things. They aren't going to completely overhaul the premise of the game because you have sad panda face.

Tavore1138 · June 2014

yodased wrote: »

FYI this is not a raid grinding game. Just making sure that is known.

Never has been, never was designed to be, never will be. This is not that game, if you want that game go to that game.

Like 20 threads a day about this and other asinine things. They aren't going to completely overhaul the premise of the game because you have sad panda face.

I believe you are correct and hope it stays that way, but at the same time if there is a way to make these buys feel better without spoiling it for everyone else it would be OK by me.

tplink3r1 · June 2014

1.crappy loot
2.i spent more soul gems than i get back
3.no one want a templar melee dps in a group.

Lalai · June 2014

I'm in the group that thinks "the best" stuff should require a considerable time investment beyond just hitting max level.

Now, that time investment doesn't have to be a dungeon/raid grind. To me, the best system will have many little milestones, so the player always feels like they're making progress, instead of one giant grind rewarded with a drop. Make crafting part of it, maybe have different parts be needed that come from different crafters and require various traits.

Like an armor piece requiring a crafter who has 8 traits researched, but that armor piece is only a portion of what you need for the actual armor. The rest could be gathered from a variety of stuff. Maybe part of it you get for completing a certain set of achievements, maybe part of it comes from killing world bosses/dolmens in certain areas. Another piece could come from dungeons or trials, perhaps a token bit that for sure drops off the last boss, and once you have so many you can get it..add in a daily quest for the token, so people who dislike doing the dungeons aren't forced, but I would also probably make it take more time solo than it would as a group... just so grouping is still encouraged, but not required.

Ideally, players shouldn't really be forced into anything.. but best gear stuff is a highly optional type deal, and spreading out where you'd get the pieces for whatever legendary set would help make the world feel more populated... especially where grouping is a bit of an issue (like with dolmens and world bosses in the higher level Vet zones.. from what it posted here anyway, I'm still in VR 4, and groups haven't been an issue).

Updated to add: Oh, and I think all the pieces and such should be bound to your account. I have no issues with someone who's put in the effort to get them, using them on another character, however I don't like when people can just purchase all the best stuff.

mainwaring.johnneb18_ESO · June 2014

I agree 100% i can rarely get groups for dungeons. and the rewards just arent there. its not only armours etc that is missing. they need to add new mounts and pets. also tabards etc. and i do think vendor tokens works well also. the end veteran system is just awful. why do i want to grind through areas as veteran when i "hopefull" will level a differnent faction through them. very bad idea. and PVP has little to no rewards also. id like to be able to level in PVP and not by questing which PVE is for. I just HOPE!!!! that the developers really work on end game and veteran ranks by paying attention to what we want.