Why very few people are doing dungeons and end game.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · June 2014

inf.toniceb17_ESO wrote: »

Lets face it: dungeons have to drop best and unique gear to make people do these dungeons.

If content is so lousy people need to be bribed to do it, it has no reason to exist.

Laura · June 2014

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

bugulu wrote: »

Answer this question. If there's an incentive to finish a veteran dungeon, in what possible way would that damage you would you choose not to do it?

Your requirement for bribes wastes scarce developer resources to produce bribes rather than more content for me to enjoy.

So it takes more dev time to create high level rewards in existing content than it does to make new content?

I dont thinks so, your model of wanting more content for people to run a few times at most takes up more dev time.

and for info:

bribe : dishonestly persuade (someone) to act in one's favour by a gift of money or other inducement.

reward: a thing given in recognition of service, effort, or achievement.

very different.

surprised nobody pointed that out. Great post. +insightful

Elloa · June 2014

Usual carrots are gear and DPS competition . Loot in dungeons and trials is nothing special and u cant compete coz u dont have meter to measure group output.

You are playing the wrong game. Play WOW, Wildstar (not being sarcastic here) for that kind of feel.
ESO is clearly not develloped in that direction. It's a game that is a lot more slow paced, all about immersion, exploration, discovery, and Lore. If you want to fill the thrill of the loot hunt and the DPS race, you are really not at the right place. And there is plenty of games that would fit you better

In my eyes, the only purpose of getting gear is to be able to survive Dungeons. Once I'm in a Dungeon, I've no more need of the gear

The incentive of doing the Dungeon, is the challenge, the exploration of it. And I can tell you, that I've done them plenty of time, and still not tired of it!

Now, I've nothing against the idea of having low chance of super cool loot drop in Dungeon, may it be comsmetic, crafting materials or gear.

Laura · June 2014

Elloa wrote: »

Usual carrots are gear and DPS competition . Loot in dungeons and trials is nothing special and u cant compete coz u dont have meter to measure group output.

You are playing the wrong game. Play WOW, Wildstar (not being sarcastic here) for that kind of feel.
ESO is clearly not develloped in that direction. It's a game that is a lot more slow paced, all about immersion, exploration, discovery, and Lore. If you want to fill the thrill of the loot hunt and the DPS race, you are really not at the right place. And there is plenty of games that would fit you better

In my eyes, the only purpose of getting gear is to be able to survive Dungeons. Once I'm in a Dungeon, I've no more need of the gear The incentive of doing the Dungeon, is the challenge, the exploration of it. And I can tell you, that I've done them plenty of time, and still not tired of it!

i would agree with your point but there are some relatively tight DPS checks in the trials and the timing leaderboard itself leads you to believe that they are trying to cater to the min maxers too.

I am in sort of a mixed bag of wanting both - I hate wow and omg do I loathe wildstar. I don't think putting improved loot tables in raids and dungeons will make this like those games.

I will absolutely 100% agree with you on your other points though I like the slow paced nature of the rest of the game and I sometimes go out and just explore in first person mode like any other ES game.

My only concern is that a very small update might keep the numbers a little higher - more players = more money in there pocket = longer life to ESO. I want nothing more than this game to succeed for years - I love this game.

martinhpb16_ESO · June 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

inf.toniceb17_ESO wrote: »

Lets face it: dungeons have to drop best and unique gear to make people do these dungeons.

If content is so lousy people need to be bribed to do it, it has no reason to exist.

So now you are saying that the content is lousy? That trials shouldn't exist?

You don't get it do you. People will continuously run content for difficult to obtain rewards that can be shared with guildmates in addition to the buzz from the challenge.

The OP is correct in that he is saying that once the initial buzz from the challenge is over people are not re-running the content as the rewards dont match the effort.

Many guilds like to group together to do raids for the challenge and the rewards. Whether you agree with it or not it is a fact.

It is also a fact that if people lose interest in end-game content then that is a problem for ESO and those of us that want it to succeed.

You can disparage this as much as you like but it wont do anything to make people play more.

If I was a Dev I would rather here about good ideas to keep people running the content rather than your disparaging comments about imaginary "bribes".

Is there noting in this game you do for rewards? open chests, excel at crafting to make better gear, clear areas for achievement points, tackle hard content for shards etc etc etc?

or are you just in it for the scenery?

ItsMeToo · June 2014

There is no End-Game. ZOS is creating more content. Therefore, No End-Game. At least for some time to come.

inf.toniceb17_ESO · June 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

If content is so lousy people need to be bribed to do it, it has no reason to exist.

I agree, but, sadly, as this thread shows, there is a lot of people who won't like content just because they don't get purple item in the end no matter how fun it is. Once they complete dungeon, they come to forums and start threads like this one he-he.

Corew · June 2014

Op, I see your point but as this game is as much about PvP as it is about PvE we'd get into the classic PvP vs PvE debacle right away. PvP would have to give as good rewards as the trials, or dedicated PvP players would get destroyed by raiders, and then raiders would complain that PvP "scrubs" get as good gear as they get.. see where I'm going?

martinhpb16_ESO · June 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

bugulu wrote: »

Why are you typing lewt and not loot? Is it some leet geek nerdy speak?

Because I view people who are fixated on gear for its own sake such as those who are asking for bribes to run content in the same way I view those that use 'leet speak', hence phat lewt.

All you are doing here is making assumptions about people in the most simplistic way, attaching labels to those assumptions and using said labels as a way to signify your own supposed superiority.

Putting people in little boxes just because you don't agree with what you think they may be saying. Kind of conservative really.

martinhpb16_ESO · June 2014

ItsMeToo wrote: »

There is no End-Game. ZOS is creating more content. Therefore, No End-Game. At least for some time to come.

"Endgame" is a term often used in MMOs to signify the most difficult content at cap level at any one time, not neccessarily that there will be no more game development.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · June 2014

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

inf.toniceb17_ESO wrote: »

Lets face it: dungeons have to drop best and unique gear to make people do these dungeons.

If content is so lousy people need to be bribed to do it, it has no reason to exist.

So now you are saying that the content is lousy? That trials shouldn't exist?

You don't get it do you. People will continuously run content for difficult to obtain rewards that can be shared with guildmates in addition to the buzz from the challenge.

My comment was clear and the reasoning obvious: if players aren't motivated to play content for the content's sake and only willing to do it when they're bribed with purple or gold pixels then the content must be so bad it shouldn't exist.

LOL at your 'share with guildmates' comment. Yes, I'm sure there are some guilds like that, most people fixated on endless dungeon re-running are there for themselves and themselves alone, hence the demands to min/maxed munchkin specs to maximise efficiency' and ensure quick runs so they can be done all over again quickly: all they care about is the e-peen value of the 'phat lewt' they get, so they can pose in Craglorn gathering spamming AOEs endlessly like bored 5-year-olds.

Laura · June 2014

inf.toniceb17_ESO wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

If content is so lousy people need to be bribed to do it, it has no reason to exist.

I agree, but, sadly, as this thread shows, there is a lot of people who won't like content just because they don't get purple item in the end no matter how fun it is. Once they complete dungeon, they come to forums and start threads like this one he-he.

you need to learn to read. My concern is that I am unable to get other people to do them and I want to keep doing them. Your idiotic slant at me is completely off base.

Please stop posting you are only making a fool of yourself.

martinhpb16_ESO · June 2014

inf.toniceb17_ESO wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

If content is so lousy people need to be bribed to do it, it has no reason to exist.

I agree, but, sadly, as this thread shows, there is a lot of people who won't like content just because they don't get purple item in the end no matter how fun it is. Once they complete dungeon, they come to forums and start threads like this one he-he.

Can I ask a question, are you a raider who likes to play regularly with a large group?

Justiciar · June 2014

I'd like class specific dungeon sets. Spread out the drops over a few dungeons<p></p>

martinhpb16_ESO · June 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

inf.toniceb17_ESO wrote: »

Lets face it: dungeons have to drop best and unique gear to make people do these dungeons.

If content is so lousy people need to be bribed to do it, it has no reason to exist.

So now you are saying that the content is lousy? That trials shouldn't exist?

You don't get it do you. People will continuously run content for difficult to obtain rewards that can be shared with guildmates in addition to the buzz from the challenge.

My comment was clear and the reasoning obvious: if players aren't motivated to play content for the content's sake and only willing to do it when they're bribed with purple or gold pixels then the content must be so bad it shouldn't exist.

LOL at your 'share with guildmates' comment. Yes, I'm sure there are some guilds like that, most people fixated on endless dungeon re-running are there for themselves and themselves alone, hence the demands to min/maxed munchkin specs to maximise efficiency' and ensure quick runs so they can be done all over again quickly: all they care about is the e-peen value of the 'phat lewt' they get, so they can pose in Craglorn gathering spamming AOEs endlessly like bored 5-year-olds.

So much hate and assumptions in your posts about what other players are like as people. Dude its all in your head and its becoming clear you don't really have anything to say apart from this hate ****.

kitsinni · June 2014

Basically the dungeons are a pain, every pull is 20 guys with 5 healers spread out over the distance of a football field. Then you add in healing that has to be done close to the healer or in a small cirlcle, that circle is filled with stuff that will kill you, mechanics to avoid stuff that require you to dodge roll out of AE on the floor which pisses the healer off because then you are not in their heals with a dozen casters, archers and healers that are out of the way and if you dare run to them you are also out of the healers heals. The pulls are setup in a way that it is impossible for the tank to agro all the garbage pulls and if they did they would just die because there is no way to dump enough heals on them to outheal 20 guys attacking one person. Unless you are in a guild group or really lucky there is at least one person who has no idea what they are doing and for all this pain in the rear you get some junk loot below your level or the chance at a set piece that you can't trade and usually get the piece from a type of armor you don't wear and even then the set is only good once you have all of it and the drop rate is very low.

On the other hand you have trials that demand a certain spec, certain DPS level, certain class you have to find 12 people to do it with and even then you can spend 10 minutes in Craglorn and just buy all the good loot from there.

I enjoy a challenge and I overexagerted some of the issues but you want to feel like there is some point to going through all of this.

Laura · June 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

inf.toniceb17_ESO wrote: »

Lets face it: dungeons have to drop best and unique gear to make people do these dungeons.

If content is so lousy people need to be bribed to do it, it has no reason to exist.

So now you are saying that the content is lousy? That trials shouldn't exist?

You don't get it do you. People will continuously run content for difficult to obtain rewards that can be shared with guildmates in addition to the buzz from the challenge.

My comment was clear and the reasoning obvious: if players aren't motivated to play content for the content's sake and only willing to do it when they're bribed with purple or gold pixels then the content must be so bad it shouldn't exist.

LOL at your 'share with guildmates' comment. Yes, I'm sure there are some guilds like that, most people fixated on endless dungeon re-running are there for themselves and themselves alone, hence the demands to min/maxed munchkin specs to maximise efficiency' and ensure quick runs so they can be done all over again quickly: all they care about is the e-peen value of the 'phat lewt' they get, so they can pose in Craglorn gathering spamming AOEs endlessly like bored 5-year-olds.

you can't be seriously perplexed about rewards can you and itemization?

you really think most people will do dungeons over and over again and find them interesting the 20th or 30th time without rewards?

Would you play a game that offered absolutely no rewards? if crafting gave you nothing would you level it up for the virtual pixel number you get?

hell if you could do everything at level 1 would you? while we are getting into hypotheticals about what drives us to enjoy a hobby? why even improve the graphics why not slap a wire frame there? hey why not just read a book over and over and over again?

You are hard wired as a human being to seek rewards. When you taste something that is sweet and delicious that is your brain rewarding you for something you are supposed to do.

Humans are wired around risk vs reward. That is why we enjoy sports. Would you play a sport that just had you show up hand you a trophy and say everyone wins?

if we think its silly to seek purple and gold "pixels" isn't the entire thing meaningless? Do you literally log in and run around all day looking at trees and using the chat box? why don't we just go outside and quit playing games all together. Why not play a hiking simulator then?

do you take the time to open up chests in case there is something nice in there? Would you open them without the reward just because you enjoy the mini game?

inf.toniceb17_ESO · June 2014

Laura wrote: »

you need to learn to read. My concern is that I am unable to get other people to do them and I want to keep doing them. Your idiotic slant at me is completely off base.

Please stop posting you are only making a fool of yourself.

Sorry, didn't mean to insult you. I'm just trying to say that turning this game into a grindfest is not the way to solve game's problems. Whould i like to see huge queues for vet dungeons? Hell, yes, i would. Would i like ESO to be turned into an average grindy MMO that forces people to do dungeons countless times because it's the only way to stay competitive? Nope, i'd rather not play group dungeons at all.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · June 2014

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Is there noting in this game you do for rewards? open chests, excel at crafting to make better gear, clear areas for achievement points, tackle hard content for shards etc etc etc?

or are you just in it for the scenery?

Yes, in a way I'm just there "for the scenery".

I play RPGs for the story, for the fun of leveling .. I'm entirely the journey not the arrival type of player .. I'm an altaholic. I love questing, exploring and leveling. For me gear is a means to an end, I NEVER do content simply to get purple or gold pixels, if I can progress naked I'd do so.

That's why I laugh at the idea of having to be bribed by some purple or gold pixels to play content I otherwise avoid .. and why I also laugh at the idea of being bribed to do it over and over again, I do stuff over and over again on my alts but that's because I'm doing it to achieve an end, not as an end it itself.

There are some things I do because I want to do them, if I get some reward then fine but take achievements for example, there may be a few I've decided to do because doing them is entertaining in some way, but since there are no rewards for achievements beyond the achievement itself .. yes, dyes are being stupidly linked to them but that wasn't why I started doing them.

I have been known to re-run stuff a hell of a lot when a specific drop is something I want .. in WOW for example, I ran Karazhan something like 35 times to get the Druid head piece. I found it hugely boring but I did it because I wanted those antlers, not for their e-peen value but simply because the sight of a bull wearing antlers amused me.

I can clearly understand the notion of re-running something for something specific, but that's light years away from what's being talked about here.

I don't expect you to understand, you come over as a typical end-game player fixated on pixels and the kudos you think displaying them has; if that's not how you are then I'm sorry, but that's how I read what you're saying and your approach to my comments.

I don't care a flying fig what anyone else has or does in a game, I don't care if someone can get something easier that I did/can, unlike most end-gamers who whine endlessly how the 'casuals' get stuff 'handed on a silver plattter', those oh-so-common epithet seen in umpteen threads in the hardcore vs. casuals wars.

I repeat, for me gear is a means to an end, I can think of little worse than running a dungeon over and over and over again for a specific drop. If it's group content then it's not even a personal challenge as I can't do it without 3 or 11 others helping me, and if it's not a personal challenge then I feel no sense of accomplishment in doing it, so if it's not what I instinctively want to do for its own sake no bribe will tempt me.

Ragefist · June 2014

Because THERE... IS... NO... LISTENER!!!

And wont be till next damn year

Vuron · June 2014

Audigy wrote: »

You are just spoiled by World of Warcraft that's all.

I played WoW for about a month. I did play EQ2, though.

Games that offer the gear treadmill with dungeons, raids and vendor loot just don't last long. WOW is the best example for this, people are bored with the game, bored with doing dungeons and raids every time they log on, hunting loot that they might never even see drop ... its just a horrible system and the loss of 6 Million subs speaks for itself.

Wait... what? WoW is the best example of a game that people are bored with and hasn't lasted very long? You mean the game that has been over 10 million subs for 10 years and is the most successful western MMO in history? Also, WoW has lost more subs than ESO will ever hope to have and still has more subs than ESO will ever see.

I also don't understand why you want to do just one dungeon or raid for several months, what is the fun about that? You kill a raid boss and then you do this for several months, just because you hope that it might drop an item....

You don't have to understand the fun, you just need to realize that there is a very large part of the population that does find this type of gaming fun. The entire Diablo franchise is built around this very mechanic. You farm the exact same zones and kill the exact same mobs every single time you play and hope for certain items. It attracts millions of players.

In my opinion crafting should always be a top valued part of an MMO, it gives those a chance to progress item wise who do not raid, are unlucky or don't do any "high skill" content which is still the majority of the gamers in an MMO.

I completely disagree that crafting should be able to create the best items. Maybe this change is due to a change in our society where people get rewarded just for participating, but I don't feel that standing in front of a crafting station and hitting R a couple hundred times to level should reward you more than someone that has actually put in the time and effort to get better at the game.

What ZO should do however is add more variety, as example when I save a farmers daughter, she could teach me about a secret book of her grandfather and in that book I will learn how to make a new type of staff that has some very unique features etc.
Now I would need to go for a hunt, do a dungeon, do quest´s, maybe even do some pvp to collect the pieces of the puzzle to find out where the book has been hidden.
This is good content, to give players a raid and say "do it 50x to find your item" is not, especially in the long run.

I agree with this, but is really no different than what the OP is suggesting. He is talking about the game not giving rewards. He used armor as an example, but at this point, any type of reward would be welcome.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · June 2014

Laura wrote: »

Would you play a sport that just had you show up hand you a trophy and say everyone wins?

if we think its silly to seek purple and gold "pixels" isn't the entire thing meaningless? Do you literally log in and run around all day looking at trees and using the chat box? why don't we just go outside and quit playing games all together. Why not play a hiking simulator then?

The fact you pose your questions like that tells me all I need to know: you have no idea that some people are entirely non-competitive, we don't all think like you do and 'winning' isn't anything we strive for in the terms you're using.

The fact you mock me throughout your post doesn't upset me, instead I pity you.

Artemiisia · June 2014

there are lots that does dungeons and such, they just dont post it in zone chat anymore.

they make small guilds and I mean small max 40 people, some even only 20 and play together without having to deal with pugs, rage quitters, verbal abuse, wannabe tanks, wannabe healers, wannabe dpser.

They also like advancing and exploring the new content together

like crypts of hearts, Im in two guilds where we do this together

Shadowhorn · June 2014

I think the answer is really simple - not rewarding doing more than once.

vyal · June 2014

Why? Because it requires a completely different playstyle than 99.9% of the rest of the game.

Just like every other MMO that has tried this, it's a bad idea.

It goes like this:
Force the player to solo through all the non-private-dungeon content in the game. Ensure grouping is painful, buggy, annoying, and/or impossible. Permit CC on bosses, and permit all skills to work pretty much everywhere on just about everything.

THEN

Require the player to completely respec, get entirely new gear, and play with entirely different skills & tactics for that 0.1% of content, private dungeons. Block the use of many skills on bosses, requiring multiple "surprise!" deaths & zerg tactics to complete content. " Oh, you haven't seen this before? We're going to make it so you die, because dying is fun, yo! " - Sincerely, Zenimax.

Yeah. Seen this before, not impressed then, not impressed now. It is literally the incarnation of bait and switch.

Wifeaggro13 · June 2014

mndfreeze wrote: »

ZOS made it clear that crafted stuff will always be a bit stronger then dropped stuff, but what is supposed to be happening and what needs to happen more, is a larger variety of unique but worthwhile effects. Some more dropped sets and weapons that have strange and unique effects that cannot be crafted, but are not necessarily 'better' then a uber crafted, just different.

I think with time this will happen.

They never ever ever said crafted gear would always be the best ever. What they said is it would be extremely powerful and viable as good as. Not in any interview ever did they state that . the closest you can find to anything like that statement in an interview he said some of the best gear in game. matter o fact just before Launch of craglorn he definately said Craglorn would have the most powerful items in game.

tino.antoninieb17_ESO · June 2014

Elloa wrote: »

Usual carrots are gear and DPS competition . Loot in dungeons and trials is nothing special and u cant compete coz u dont have meter to measure group output.

You are playing the wrong game. Play WOW, Wildstar (not being sarcastic here) for that kind of feel.
ESO is clearly not develloped in that direction. It's a game that is a lot more slow paced, all about immersion, exploration, discovery, and Lore. If you want to fill the thrill of the loot hunt and the DPS race, you are really not at the right place. And there is plenty of games that would fit you better

If u think that ESO is evolved already and that balance between casual and competitive content/players is already reached then u are right . I should look for other game.
If everything is like it should be then yes you are right and this is your game and not mine.
Perhaps you are right since ZOS recently said that their main development priority is group content. Perhaps u are right but ..
Till that consensus is reached there will be always people like you and i. Main difference between you and i is not that i want competitive game and u want more casual . Main difference between you and I is that you are claiming stuff as yours and telling other people to leave. I still think that in most cases both of our worlds can work really ok in same game.
If ZOS eventually develop really competitive PVE end game content then please dont go in that zone coz there will be some morally deviant, actually bad people who maybe even played wow. I know for sure that you dont go to Cyrodil coz there people are hitting each other. Funny is that PVP ( cyrodill ) you consider slow and more immersed content . Perhaps u havent been there still ?
I hope that you will understand my message and that we really dont need to continue this ...

Argoth · June 2014

Also, WoW has lost more subs than ESO will ever hope to have and still has more subs than ESO will ever see.

^ Great line.

I completely disagree that crafting should be able to create the best items. Maybe this change is due to a change in our society where people get rewarded just for participating, but I don't feel that standing in front of a crafting station and hitting R a couple hundred times to level should reward you more than someone that has actually put in the time and effort to get better at the game.

I also agree with this. I love the mechanics of crafting in this game but its so ridiculously easy. If crafting was on the spectrum difficulty of FFXI, then I could agree with it being some of the best end game, but it's a cakewalk currently. I maxed enchanting in a couple weeks and it's the hardest one! My main VR12 is max in 5 crafts on the SAME character. I wayyyy prefer the approach of one or two crafts per char and make the choice meaningful at least. This would encourage social interaction and trading far more than the current framework. Currently, every player can just level their mains and a couple alts to max in every craft and take the multiplayer out of MMO when it comes to trade skills.

Talk about wounding the economy, social community, and meaningful choices with worthwhile effort all in the same root problem.

I love the mechanics. I hate how many each char can have and how easy it is to max.

Davlor · June 2014

I agree with OP. This all comes down to itemization. I'd like to see all the sets drop in the vet dungeons at trials at higher level and quality than the rest of the world. Some of the best sets only currently drop at VR1 (seriously?). Along with more useful new sets of course.

I'm fine with the best items being a combination of crafting and adventuring (vet dungeons, trials, etc). If it isn't a legendary drop it is upgraded by crafting. Done. Next.

Wifeaggro13 · June 2014

inf.toniceb17_ESO wrote: »

Yeah, ZOS, give these grind lovers a grind pit where they can kill a boss once per 20 hours with a 0.00001% chance to get gear that will allow them to do 1% extra damage to that boss. Just...dont let em out of that pit

Seriously tho the day ZOS will make us grind bosses will be the last day of my sub. Theres a ton of f2p MMOs built on this concept, why would i pay for TESO if it won't be any different?

My friend no game with out gear progression has ever survived. Go ask star wars galaxies how that worked for them. Or how about AOC it worked so well for them that 3 months after launch they took 6 months of development time to comletely reitemize the game from top to bottom.Gear progression is good many enjoy it. just because you dont does not mean a large portion of the community does.

Case and point , i hate housing i think its lame. But many do. the only reason i had a house in EQ 2 was to sell things from. I filled it with Flaming Boar pets and never looked at it again unless i had to retrieve money form the board. But housing is the number one feature People want, even over the damn Brotherhood or thieves guild.