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Why very few people are doing dungeons and end game.
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fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Why do you need to be bribed to do content, I thought it was for the challenge and satisfaction was the reward.inf.toniceb17_ESO wrote: »it can be different I have a hard time believing you even read the thread.
What would you prefer then? Because as it is people logged in that I haven't seen since a few days of craglorn did the new veteran dungeon a couple of times found out its the same old stuff and feel there is no reason to log in again.
What do you propose to fix the issue if you don't think the traditional method is it? just hope people will stick around for no real reason?
You are satisfied not having any incentive to do anything? What about rare cosmetics are you against that too?
I won't propose any fixes because there is no issue for me. I just log in almost every day to do a few quests, enjoy the story, clear a couple of dungeons, world bosses or dolmens, team up with a friends for a group or public dungeon etc. Even if i will run out of things to do i can always craft (craft. in about 5 minutes. not grind it for months) myself a golden gear and go to Cyrodiil. PVP is never boring. The fact that i'm not forced to do same thing over and over and over again is exactly the reason why i love this game. If i do a dungeon i do it because it's fun, not because i need that rare purple item from the boss and i like it that way.
Just because you don't have an issue doesn't mean that it's not an issue.
An incentive to run a veteran dungeons should be expected..
That's why I play games, don't you?
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Sandmanninja✭✭✭✭I've always played either a tank or a healer. I grew tired of ppl using DPS meters as a measure of their manhood. I'm a good tank - I watch my healer's mana, I'm mindful of mobs & pats and I grab aggro if a dps pulls it. I give my group a fast run if they want it or a full clear if they need xp. I ENJOY random dungeons.
That doesn't exist in this game.
Give tanks better Threat/Aggro. For DKs, give their talons a morph that does threat for 10-15 seconds. Forget that others don't have that skill. Hell, I can't vanish like a NB and I'm not complaining. I want to tank and I want proper tank skills.
I understand that we have complete freedom to play our toons "any way we want", but running into the lair of monsters with minions isn't your typical situation. I vote strongly for the Holy Trinity of Tank/Heals/DPS in 4-mans/12-mans/etc.[Hard Mode Dungeoneers] is recruiting all players of all levels for this new Guild.
THIS IS A NEW-BUT-GROWING GUILD. We are focused on doing vet pledges, vet dungeons, getting achieves, & doing hard mode bosses.
Most active GMT+10 (Australia time zone) in the afternoon Mon-Fri and all day Sat/Sun.
Pst/email for info/invites.0 -
bugulu✭✭✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
Why do you need to be bribed to do content, I thought it was for the challenge and satisfaction was the reward.inf.toniceb17_ESO wrote: »it can be different I have a hard time believing you even read the thread.
What would you prefer then? Because as it is people logged in that I haven't seen since a few days of craglorn did the new veteran dungeon a couple of times found out its the same old stuff and feel there is no reason to log in again.
What do you propose to fix the issue if you don't think the traditional method is it? just hope people will stick around for no real reason?
You are satisfied not having any incentive to do anything? What about rare cosmetics are you against that too?
I won't propose any fixes because there is no issue for me. I just log in almost every day to do a few quests, enjoy the story, clear a couple of dungeons, world bosses or dolmens, team up with a friends for a group or public dungeon etc. Even if i will run out of things to do i can always craft (craft. in about 5 minutes. not grind it for months) myself a golden gear and go to Cyrodiil. PVP is never boring. The fact that i'm not forced to do same thing over and over and over again is exactly the reason why i love this game. If i do a dungeon i do it because it's fun, not because i need that rare purple item from the boss and i like it that way.
Just because you don't have an issue doesn't mean that it's not an issue.
An incentive to run a veteran dungeons should be expected..
That's why I play games, don't you?
You do know that incentives is usually what keeps the end game content progressing?
Would you rather have that people who are at end game running out of stuff to do to quit (As if we need more people leaving the game after reaching max rank)?
Answer this question. If there's an incentive to finish a veteran dungeon, in what possible way would that damage you would you choose not to do it?Edited by bugulu on June 26, 2014 11:13AM1 -
SaibotLiu✭✭✭✭So in theory, people who need to get gear as a bribe for doing stuff arent really gamers, they're achievement ***.
If I do stuff in game its because I want to do it. The game doesnt have to delicately lay some kingly gift at my feet and toss my salad to get me to play. Freakin casuals.
Yeah that's right, people who feel like its some sort of requirement that they get some reward for doing stuff are the definition of casual. Hardcore players work their fingers to the nub until they're like sandpaper because it gets them off, not for a pink sword of +15 bank loitering nub awe.2 -
wrlifeboil✭✭✭✭✭inf.toniceb17_ESO wrote: »it can be different I have a hard time believing you even read the thread.
What would you prefer then? Because as it is people logged in that I haven't seen since a few days of craglorn did the new veteran dungeon a couple of times found out its the same old stuff and feel there is no reason to log in again.
What do you propose to fix the issue if you don't think the traditional method is it? just hope people will stick around for no real reason?
You are satisfied not having any incentive to do anything? What about rare cosmetics are you against that too?
I won't propose any fixes because there is no issue for me. I just log in almost every day to do a few quests, enjoy the story, clear a couple of dungeons, world bosses or dolmens, team up with a friends for a group or public dungeon etc. Even if i will run out of things to do i can always craft (craft. in about 5 minutes. not grind it for months) myself a golden gear and go to Cyrodiil. PVP is never boring. The fact that i'm not forced to do same thing over and over and over again is exactly the reason why i love this game. If i do a dungeon i do it because it's fun, not because i need that rare purple item from the boss and i like it that way.
Just because you don't have an issue doesn't mean that it's not an issue.
An incentive to run a veteran dungeons should be expected.
As I previously said, to not disrupt the balance between dropped and crafted gear, maybe upon completing a veteran dungeon, you are rewarded with 1x legendary material style of each craft (Kura, Temper Alloy, Dreugh Wax and Rosin.
Some of the legendary mats sell for 3k+ gold. Why give someone 3k gold just for being carried through a dungeon?0 -
Games that offer the gear treadmill with dungeons, raids and vendor loot just don't last long. WOW is the best example for this, people are bored with the game, bored with doing dungeons and raids every time they log on, hunting loot that they might never even see drop ... its just a horrible system and the loss of 6 Million subs speaks for itself.
That horrible that lost 6 million subs ? That is outrageous. They are really bad.
Do u understand that to lose 6 million subs - u have to have those in first place. Do u know that they had much much more then 6 mill subs in the peak of grinding era ?
Have u ever , ever played wow or they havent deserved your presence ?
WOW is game like every other and for sure it has positive and negative sides . If wow has same feature it doesn't mean automatically that should be your crown argument in discussion and that u will win. According to some statements u made i assume you are mature person . Its fairly possible that you meet on the net some people who are older then 10. Act accordingly.1 -
bugulu✭✭✭wrlifeboil wrote: »inf.toniceb17_ESO wrote: »it can be different I have a hard time believing you even read the thread.
What would you prefer then? Because as it is people logged in that I haven't seen since a few days of craglorn did the new veteran dungeon a couple of times found out its the same old stuff and feel there is no reason to log in again.
What do you propose to fix the issue if you don't think the traditional method is it? just hope people will stick around for no real reason?
You are satisfied not having any incentive to do anything? What about rare cosmetics are you against that too?
I won't propose any fixes because there is no issue for me. I just log in almost every day to do a few quests, enjoy the story, clear a couple of dungeons, world bosses or dolmens, team up with a friends for a group or public dungeon etc. Even if i will run out of things to do i can always craft (craft. in about 5 minutes. not grind it for months) myself a golden gear and go to Cyrodiil. PVP is never boring. The fact that i'm not forced to do same thing over and over and over again is exactly the reason why i love this game. If i do a dungeon i do it because it's fun, not because i need that rare purple item from the boss and i like it that way.
Just because you don't have an issue doesn't mean that it's not an issue.
An incentive to run a veteran dungeons should be expected.
As I previously said, to not disrupt the balance between dropped and crafted gear, maybe upon completing a veteran dungeon, you are rewarded with 1x legendary material style of each craft (Kura, Temper Alloy, Dreugh Wax and Rosin.
Some of the legendary mats sell for 3k+ gold. Why give someone 3k gold just for being carried through a dungeon?
You mean as in Hircines farming where everyone could spend a day there and be fully decked with BIS gear?0 -
bugulu✭✭✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
More content? People are not running these contents, that's the problem.
Craglorn which was a very much anticipated patch was great fun... the first time you did it. Majority of the players didn't even bother questing through it but instead did Anomaly farming skipping the whole content presented to them.
Would you rather have them focus spitting out content that people will only enjoy once (if even that) when they instead could focus on increasing the replay value of already existing content?Edited by bugulu on June 26, 2014 11:32AM1 -
Argoth✭I posted this a few days ago on a poll but its similar for me. Repost:
"Rewards for me. There is no carrot. There is no stick.
It relates to end game but also to vet content along the way. Vet content is far more palpable if there is incentive to the grind. You're doing looong quest chains for greens that you will never use and that's just demoralizing. Now do that for 12 Vet Levels and you're beating your head against the keyboard.
If there were unique quest rewards that had fun, quirky, or were at least upgrades to builds, it keeps you looking around the corner for the next quest chain to see where it takes you.
I know some players play for the journey and others for the destination but there should be both? Whats the point of the journey if the destination is a dead end?
This is also to me why Craglorn was mostly a let down. Some of the lore and quests were quite fun but its the same issue. Awesome journey. Terrible destinations. Trials weren't very "end game" enough for me and then they're barely upgrades at all for your char. Low challenge. Low reward."
People need goals and vision in life. Period. There's a lot of overlap in MMOs too. They need goals and vision for their chars, builds, and strategy. Without them, they will get goals and vision elsewhere - and it won't include ESO because they've hit them all.1 -
fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
If content doesnt have value to repeat it - then u will do that piece of content once or twice.
If u will solve that content in two days and devs needed like 1 month to make it - you will soon run out of content u will get bored coz u dont have what to do.
I dont think they should make grind machine but certainly to add more value for repeating some content. Better loot will be one of ways to do that.
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martinhpb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
Why do you need to be bribed to do content, I thought it was for the challenge and satisfaction was the reward.
That's why I play games, don't you?
To an extent, but I and guild are only going to repeatedly play a group instance for a hard to obtain reward like an armour set / jewel / or weapon, even if it takes months and as long as it is the best in the game. Otherwise adios.
(p.s. i never played WOW in my life, for all those that hide behind that condescension)
At least the spelling is difficult for you.
Hew's Bane*0 -
bugulu✭✭✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
The coding is already there by the way, reusing the coding for Cyrodiil achievement points treasure chests to make it fit to trigger when killing the last boss in a veteran dungeon wouldn't "waste" any significant amount of developer resource.Edited by bugulu on June 26, 2014 11:29AM0 -
wrlifeboil✭✭✭✭✭wrlifeboil wrote: »inf.toniceb17_ESO wrote: »it can be different I have a hard time believing you even read the thread.
What would you prefer then? Because as it is people logged in that I haven't seen since a few days of craglorn did the new veteran dungeon a couple of times found out its the same old stuff and feel there is no reason to log in again.
What do you propose to fix the issue if you don't think the traditional method is it? just hope people will stick around for no real reason?
You are satisfied not having any incentive to do anything? What about rare cosmetics are you against that too?
I won't propose any fixes because there is no issue for me. I just log in almost every day to do a few quests, enjoy the story, clear a couple of dungeons, world bosses or dolmens, team up with a friends for a group or public dungeon etc. Even if i will run out of things to do i can always craft (craft. in about 5 minutes. not grind it for months) myself a golden gear and go to Cyrodiil. PVP is never boring. The fact that i'm not forced to do same thing over and over and over again is exactly the reason why i love this game. If i do a dungeon i do it because it's fun, not because i need that rare purple item from the boss and i like it that way.
Just because you don't have an issue doesn't mean that it's not an issue.
An incentive to run a veteran dungeons should be expected.
As I previously said, to not disrupt the balance between dropped and crafted gear, maybe upon completing a veteran dungeon, you are rewarded with 1x legendary material style of each craft (Kura, Temper Alloy, Dreugh Wax and Rosin.
Some of the legendary mats sell for 3k+ gold. Why give someone 3k gold just for being carried through a dungeon?
You mean as in Hircines farming where everyone could spend a day there and be fully decked with BIS gear?
First exploiters win in this game. ZOS dev philosophy.1 -
Shadowhorn✭✭I would say not only in MMO games but in life overall everything is done for reaching a bigger goal but in MMOs if you run out of these supposedly big goals then there is no motivation left to play at all. Especially not in a game thats p2p.2
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Laura✭✭✭✭✭
✭Guys - this isn't a matter of the morality behind rewarding you for doing something in a game.
are we really arguing risk vs reward? a tried and true method that games have been using since forever to touch on that primal part of our brain that seeks those rewards? most people are going to seek the path of least resistance
It may be more fun to get the higher fruit but as long as its just as tasty we will go for the low hanging fruit.
I get it some people will do dungeons and raids over and over and over again for the sheer enjoyment of doing it. I have done this myself but you HAVE to know that is such a critically small minority certainly not large enough to sustain this game.Edited by Laura on June 26, 2014 11:32AM1 -
fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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I run all content I am able to do, I'm sure most do, many of us though don't feel the need to be bribed to do it once and don't see the need to repeat it over and over usually.fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
More content? People are not running these contents, that's the problem.
Not everyone runs dungeons because they're phat lewt ***.
Edited by fromtesonlineb16_ESO on June 26, 2014 11:33AM1 -
crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
✭there is no population support for the supposed "end-game".
you can't force people do things in an MMO neither.0 -
Tannakaobi✭✭✭✭✭I know you guys wanted crafting to be the best gear in the game but its seriously becoming a problem.
I don't really get this mentality.
In my mind the top gear in the game should come from three different places.
1) The hardest PVE content.
2) The most expensive PVP rewards
3) The most difficult to make profession items.
They should all be the same in terms of quality, with only the look being different. This should be the same with all the gear through 1-VR12
That way everyone is happy, everyone can grind the way they choose to. Hell, you could even mix and match.
In the same way PVP and PVE should be as quick to level as one another. PVP should be bracketed. I like the up-scaling to 50 for 10+ but VR should be separate.
If all this was in place then more people would be playing and realistically it would not change the game at all. Except PVP would be a lot better because if you could grind through PVP from level 10 onwards then you would be able to buy the PVP reward gear giving you a better start on VR PVP.
I would also make it possible to buy Skyshards/skill points at a cost comparable to how many you get in PVE content, possibly a cooldown/time-limit for each.
My biggest problem is VR content, it's so time consuming and that time I would rather be spent doing PVP, but that goes back to rewards or the lack of. I would probably do some time trials if I had a high enough character.
It would have been better if the game levels had finished at 50 and the other two factions could have been optional with Craglorn being VR1-2. Too late for that.0 -
Laura✭✭✭✭✭
✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
I run all content I am able to do, I'm sure most do, many of us though don't feel the need to be bribed to do it once and don't see the need to repeat it over and over usually.fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
More content? People are not running these contents, that's the problem.
and there is the problem. If people are just doing a dungeon once instead of repeating it ZoS is going to have to churn out content at a staggeringly break neck pace.
They need to keep subs they aren't going to keep subs if people run out of things to do that is pretty much basic MMO2 -
fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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If by 'existing content' you mean endless dungeon runs for phat lewt *** then yes, I do mean that.Would you rather have them focus spitting out content that people will only enjoy once (if even that) when they instead could focus on increasing the replay value of already existing content?Edited by fromtesonlineb16_ESO on June 26, 2014 11:35AM0 -
Laura✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Tannakaobi I agree with you, if the crafted gear wasn't a little better in most cases and infinitely INFINITELY easier to get.
I wouldn't mind seeing some items that are better if made by crafting some by pvp and some by pve.0 -
bugulu✭✭✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
I run all content I am able to do, I'm sure most do, many of us though don't feel the need to be bribed to do it once and don't see the need to repeat it over and over usually.fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
More content? People are not running these contents, that's the problem.
Not everyone runs dungeons because they're phat lewt ***.
So did I, I have every single achievement for the veteran dungeons out there.
Am I gonna run them again? Not really, I got all I wanted.
And there's the problem. I will not be running any more dungeons unless it's to help guildies/friends out, I won't be doing it for my own sake.
The end game content of this game is mute and non existing. There is no replay value and sooner or later, what was once fun, will not be fun anymore.
Why are you typing lewt and not loot? Is it some leet geek nerdy speak?Edited by bugulu on June 26, 2014 11:40AM1 -
bugulu✭✭✭Tannakaobi wrote: »I know you guys wanted crafting to be the best gear in the game but its seriously becoming a problem.
I don't really get this mentality.
In my mind the top gear in the game should come from three different places.
1) The hardest PVE content.
2) The most expensive PVP rewards
3) The most difficult to make profession items.
I agree with that mind set. Sadly this is not true in ESO at the moment.
1. The best gear are from crafted materials (with sole exceptions). These gear can be crafted with ease by spending a day or two in Hircine's Haunt in Craglorn.
2. The most expensive PvP rewards cost a million alliance points in game. You can get the green version of them from the alliance treasure chests and you use said resource materials from Hircine's Haunt to get them up to legendary style.
3. There are few sets in PvE dungeons that are worth getting. Warlock, Akavari, Destructive Mage. In most cases, the crafted gear is better than them and/or equivalent to the best PvE gear.
The gap between these three types of acquiring gear is way to big.
Edited by bugulu on June 26, 2014 11:47AM0 -
martinhpb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Why are you typing lewt and not loot? Is it some leet geek nerdy speak?
He / she is using condescending language to talk down players who are supporting the concept of raid loot progression.
it is the same as those people who draw on WOW all the time to somehow signify they are on higher ground.
Pretty lame tbh.At least the spelling is difficult for you.
Hew's Bane*2 -
Just because you don't have an issue doesn't mean that it's not an issue.
An incentive to run a veteran dungeons should be expected.
As I previously said, to not disrupt the balance between dropped and crafted gear, maybe upon completing a veteran dungeon, you are rewarded with 1x legendary material style of each craft (Kura, Temper Alloy, Dreugh Wax and Rosin.
Well maybe that would work...for a couple of months. But after some time the market will be flooded with these mats and it will be cheaper to buy 'em than do a dungeon. And then we will be back to where we came from. Lets face it: dungeons have to drop best and unique gear to make people do these dungeons. Otherwise there always will be discussions like this 'cause as Laura said people will almost always choose the path of least resistance and this path wont lie through vet dungeons. There is no middle ground. So, yes, i admit that if ZOS want people to do vet dungeons ZOS have to force them by making people grind these dungeons. But that is not kind of game i would want to play and there's quiet a bunch of people who would agree with me. In my opinion, to avoid turning ESO into another grindfest MMO devs should bet on PVP, that means proper balancing, bug fixing and more diversity. PVE content should stay as it is.0 -
fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Because I view people who are fixated on gear for its own sake such as those who are asking for bribes to run content in the same way I view those that use 'leet speak', hence phat lewt.Why are you typing lewt and not loot? Is it some leet geek nerdy speak?Edited by fromtesonlineb16_ESO on June 26, 2014 11:57AM0 -
Laura✭✭✭✭✭
✭inf.toniceb17_ESO wrote: »PVE content should stay as it is.
why? it isn't working.
You want them to keep developing content people will barely use?Edited by Laura on June 26, 2014 11:57AM2 -
bugulu✭✭✭inf.toniceb17_ESO wrote: »Just because you don't have an issue doesn't mean that it's not an issue.
An incentive to run a veteran dungeons should be expected.
As I previously said, to not disrupt the balance between dropped and crafted gear, maybe upon completing a veteran dungeon, you are rewarded with 1x legendary material style of each craft (Kura, Temper Alloy, Dreugh Wax and Rosin.
Well maybe that would work...for a couple of months. But after some time the market will be flooded with these mats and it will be cheaper to buy 'em than do a dungeon. And then we will be back to where we came from. Lets face it: dungeons have to drop best and unique gear to make people do these dungeons. Otherwise there always will be discussions like this 'cause as Laura said people will almost always choose the path of least resistance and this path wont lie through vet dungeons. There is no middle ground. So, yes, i admit that if ZOS want people to do vet dungeons ZOS have to force them by making people grind these dungeons. But that is not kind of game i would want to play and there's quiet a bunch of people who would agree with me. In my opinion, to avoid turning ESO into another grindfest MMO devs should bet on PVP, that means proper balancing, bug fixing and more diversity. PVE content should stay as it is.
I am not so sure about that. The prices of these materials are still high despite people farming Hircine's Haunt or Rootsunder Ruins. Nonetheless, I think that would be a good way to give the dungeons replay value.
Another idea would be that the crafted sets can also drop from these veteran dungeons but with different names but same stats/set bonuses and perhaps another racial style.
There are plenty of incentives that could be implemented without ruining for someone else.Edited by bugulu on June 26, 2014 11:58AM1 -
martinhpb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
So it takes more dev time to create high level rewards in existing content than it does to make new content?
I dont thinks so, your model of wanting more content for people to run a few times at most takes up more dev time.
and for info:
bribe : dishonestly persuade (someone) to act in one's favour by a gift of money or other inducement.
reward: a thing given in recognition of service, effort, or achievement.
very different.At least the spelling is difficult for you.
Hew's Bane*2