ESO and graphics cards (Developers, note).

Graelock · June 2014

So, I have been trying to find the sweet spot on my graphics card. I own an MSI R9 280x 6GB, and found that overclocking my card from 1020mhz - 1200mhz (GPU), and 6000mhz-7000mhz (RAM) netted a decent gain in other GPU-centric games. Even Titanfall...which is known for running the Source Engine which in turn is a very CPU intense engine, benefited from OC'ng. Benchmarks netted me a decent gain, too...but in ESO, I get the same dipping and fluctuating frame rates at stock speeds, as I am with non-OC speeds. I mean, I can be between 40-60fps, then hit an area that dive bombs me to 26fps, sometimes even 17. I realized then that these results are really no different than my 6970, prior to upgrade. I looked at MSI Afterburner and found that ESO is only really ever using under 60% of my GPU at all times, where most other games utilize 97-100%, 100% of the time. Why does ESO use so little? I think I understand now why I'm reading that people with R9 290's and other high end cards, suffer mediocre performance in ESO, and any other game lets me know that I have a considerably fast card...

remilafo · June 2014

sounds like it could be a cpu bottleneck?

can you give your system specs please.

for the record i run ESO with two 7970's Ghz which are basically the same card you have. (ie. 7970ghz was rebranded to R9-280X) .

Both my gpu's run at 100% if i want them to..

so yeah what is your system specs? what resolution you run the game at? do you use any post grphical processors like Raedeon pro, sweetfx or ESOLauncher?

JbSmooth · June 2014

I need help with this issue im running

fx6300 stock
r9 280x
16bg ram
650w psu
Asrock 990 extreme 9
when im not in big groups I pull 70+ fps 1080p ultra in pvp zone
when I do raid groups I turn my setting way down med/720p 50%view and im lucky to see 20 fps in large groups siege pvp I have latest drivers and all
I don't know how to OC so I don't wanna go that route just yet ....but yea looking for any solution atm so I can enjoy then game outside of pve

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · June 2014

@JbSmooth
Is the FX6300
The game isn't using all cores* and AMD cores of those series are weak. Very weak.

Had the same issue with all games with my FX8350 even at 5Ghz overclock. They never used my 7970 to it's potential.

So upgraded to i7 4820K (oc @5Ghz), plugged a GTX780Ti @ 1293 and saw the light.

in TESO with few heavily modified config file, my GPU is running at 100% all the time providing ~80 fps @ 1080p anywhere but Cyrodiil. (to the extend I had to make an aggressive fan profile to stop the game crashing because of overheating GPU).

Cyrodiil because of shadows & effects from hundreds of players, I always tune it down, or I have 30 fps.

FYI Note only a couple games scale on multicore CPUS where AMD can get some benefit, two of them are BF4 and X Rebirth. Everything else runs on 2 cores max.

Many new games, running on single core still.

Sakiri · June 2014

Most MMOs are heavy on CPU and light on GPU to compensate for older machines.

My issue is that even turning everything way the hell down, after the patch my framerate is *crap*.

It's annoying. I know my computer is old and needs replaced, but it's above minimum and it ran better in freaking *beta* than it is now.

AMD Athlon II x2 64
Nvidia GTS 250

kelly.medleyb14_ESO · June 2014

Graelock wrote: »

So, I have been trying to find the sweet spot on my graphics card. I own an MSI R9 280x 6GB, and found that overclocking my card from 1020mhz - 1200mhz (GPU), and 6000mhz-7000mhz (RAM) netted a decent gain in other GPU-centric games. Even Titanfall...which is known for running the Source Engine which in turn is a very CPU intense engine, benefited from OC'ng. Benchmarks netted me a decent gain, too...but in ESO, I get the same dipping and fluctuating frame rates at stock speeds, as I am with non-OC speeds. I mean, I can be between 40-60fps, then hit an area that dive bombs me to 26fps, sometimes even 17. I realized then that these results are really no different than my 6970, prior to upgrade. I looked at MSI Afterburner and found that ESO is only really ever using under 60% of my GPU at all times, where most other games utilize 97-100%, 100% of the time. Why does ESO use so little? I think I understand now why I'm reading that people with R9 290's and other high end cards, suffer mediocre performance in ESO, and any other game lets me know that I have a considerably fast card...

It's the game it's not you, my R9 290X with my OC'd 4GHZ processor does the same thing, nothing you can do about it. I hear intel guys have a much better time of it so I guess you could rebuild your entire PC.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

@JbSmooth
Is the FX6300
The game isn't using all cores* and AMD cores of those series are weak. Very weak.

Had the same issue with all games with my FX8350 even at 5Ghz overclock. They never used my 7970 to it's potential.

So upgraded to i7 4820K (oc @5Ghz), plugged a GTX780Ti @ 1293 and saw the light.

in TESO with few heavily modified config file, my GPU is running at 100% all the time providing ~80 fps @ 1080p anywhere but Cyrodiil. (to the extend I had to make an aggressive fan profile to stop the game crashing because of overheating GPU).

Cyrodiil because of shadows & effects from hundreds of players, I always tune it down, or I have 30 fps.

FYI Note only a couple games scale on multicore CPUS where AMD can get some benefit, two of them are BF4 and X Rebirth. Everything else runs on 2 cores max.

Many new games, running on single core still.

Edit: just read this guys post he hit it head on. Game designers these days seem to be trying to cater heavily to casuals with low end machines in order to get as many people on them as possible, plus we are severely lagging behind other countries who are moving quickly towards fiber so bandwidth is an issue as well.

Something we will just have to deal with.

Sharee · June 2014

For what it's worth, my game runs great on ultra, and i only run it on a 750Ti card, but have an i7 processor, so it seems the CPU makes the difference.

Audigy · June 2014

Graelock wrote: »

So, I have been trying to find the sweet spot on my graphics card. I own an MSI R9 280x 6GB, and found that overclocking my card from 1020mhz - 1200mhz (GPU), and 6000mhz-7000mhz (RAM) netted a decent gain in other GPU-centric games. Even Titanfall...which is known for running the Source Engine which in turn is a very CPU intense engine, benefited from OC'ng. Benchmarks netted me a decent gain, too...but in ESO, I get the same dipping and fluctuating frame rates at stock speeds, as I am with non-OC speeds. I mean, I can be between 40-60fps, then hit an area that dive bombs me to 26fps, sometimes even 17. I realized then that these results are really no different than my 6970, prior to upgrade. I looked at MSI Afterburner and found that ESO is only really ever using under 60% of my GPU at all times, where most other games utilize 97-100%, 100% of the time. Why does ESO use so little? I think I understand now why I'm reading that people with R9 290's and other high end cards, suffer mediocre performance in ESO, and any other game lets me know that I have a considerably fast card...

I try to clarify things up, as I run the same Setup as you do.

First of all, MMO´s are always CPU limited and never GPU unless you run a 3DFx card still

Therefore what bottle necks you and many others isn't the GPU, but your CPU.

If you see a utilization of less than 95% on your card or cpu then this simply means that the limitation has not yet kicked it.

If a 280x would utilize 95% or more, than this would be pretty bad as your system would work on its limits then and an upgrade might be wise or an OC - that said, the MSI card is one of the best you can get right now, no game is actually challenging that card on Full HD, even Crysis runs smooth on max details.

Another aspect is, that our GPU´s need to wait for our CPU´s in any game or application as our CPU must tell our GPU´s what they have to draw. The secret word here is "Draw Calls", which simply refers to rendered object´s in the gaming world.
If your CPU tells the GPU that it has to render 12000 objects then your GPU will only render those 12k. While our GPU´s might be able to render 30k, they cant and therefore the utilization stays low.

At games like Crysis 3 or Star Citizen this is a totally different story. First of all do both games use multi core threading which ESO doesn't. Secondly, does the Crytec engine support mantle, which is a feature of our GPU´s by AMD and it boost´s your gaming performance by round about 40-50%, as Mantle is a low level API which allows many more Draw calls than the old DirectX API.

I hope this explains your "poor" performance. As you didn't write what CPU you got, I can only assume its a not so good CPU based on the single threading like the AMD FX.
The only thing you can do is run a strong OC of about 4.4 GHz. As comparison, I run a 2500k and get 40-50 FPS on ultra and 100 view distance in stock core, which is still very poor for the CPU as I only run at 30% due the poor multi threading of ESO.

Sakiri · June 2014

Most MMOs run CPU heavy.

Problem is, if the games gonna run like crap on a lower end chip thats still well above the minimum requirements, your programmers need fired.

People with machines like the OP shouldnt still have issues.

Note that I monitor my CPU while playing. Its not capping frequency. Its running at 30-40% capacity. I need to load up Afterburner and see what my card looks like in the morning.

Game ran smooth as silk in beta.

Runs like crap after patch.

Displeased.

someuser · June 2014

I am an AMD user and I can confirm that core VS core performance is weak on AMD chips. Even though I have a gtx 770 my frames can suck and I know its my CPU that bottlenecks me.

Love AMDs cause they are cheap and they do offer good performance overall... but for gaming you really want an Intel as the performance per core is much better... and as has already been said, many games do not really utilize the 6+ cores AMDs have.

Another thing to be aware of is your motherboard... Especially with AMDs (because unlike Intel, AMD doesn't require whole new chip sets to run every GD new CPU they make). My old AMD 790x just doesn't have the bandwidth (even with overclocking the NB) to handle the mass data that modern PC games need.

The great thing is though, you don't need an i7 to tear things up. A good old fashion i5-4670K murders anything AMD does (gaming wise).

Swordguy · June 2014

large FPS dips in mmos are often caused by drive reads, because mmo's are often grabbing data from drive as not all data can be front loaded. the busier the area around you is, the worse it can get.

Installing an mmo directly to an SSD, or using Intel SRT SSD Caching (or installing ESO on a Ramdisk if you have an insane amount of ram for some reason) should alleviate a lot of large dips in frame rates. In really packed areas, like pvp with tons of players, the difference should be staggering when comparing an old school hard disk to more modern technology.

Sakiri · June 2014

@someuser thats why I use AMD. Cost.

I typically have $600USD to build with. Intel chips worth a damn cut into my GPU budget.

Its why my comp only has 4GB RAM too. Cost. Couldnt afford it and my last comp exploded.

Cogo · June 2014

Um, yes, CPU is important but its not THE only thing you need to look at for performance in MMOs

1. Disc drive. SSD! Expensive, but your performance shoots up 20x from any SATA
2. RAM size and speed. 12GB is nice. 16GB better. RAM is CHEAP today. Make sure the RAM has a high bus speed and that your motherboard can support it.
3. Your OS and whats running on it. There are several "thieves" that takes resources from your system, without being viruses or anything "bad".

Addons and services running on browsers are a common reason for SLIGHT reduce in you system. Proper Viruskiller and firewall (not windows one) is very game friendly today, so they usally are alright.

Look at what services your computer is running. Small things, but many of them, and your software (ESO) needs to share this.

I use CCleaner. Free software. Safe, been out for years. Is an exellent tool in increasing performance. This also cleans your Registry, which IS a big reason for performance at times.

Also check what services starting automaticly when windows starts.
Facebook, skype and other programs that "offers" features on your computer are always in use, and even if they alone dont take much....it does add up.

monden1980b16_ESO · June 2014

Just read half of the first post...

It is widely known, that ESO is CPU limited for most systems (and that ESO doesn't use computing power of the CPU very efficiently... it does not take full advantage of multi-core CPUs)

What helps is high CPU clock speed (high single core performance).

Cogo · June 2014

Um no!

This has nothing to do with ESO. Yes, CPU helps, but is not the big reason anymore.

Your harddrive on your C: where your OS and games (should be). Is a HUGE difference between SATA, thats normal and most uses, and the "new" SSD.

Dont take my word for it. Google it.

Arthur_Spoonfondle · June 2014

Cogo wrote: »

Um no!

This has nothing to do with ESO. Yes, CPU helps, but is not the big reason anymore.

Your harddrive on your C: where your OS and games (should be). Is a HUGE difference between SATA, thats normal and most uses, and the "new" SSD.

Dont take my word for it. Google it.

I won't take your word for it as you clearly do not understand what SATA is.

SATA stands for Serial Advanced Technology Attachment , it is the interface which connects the hard-drive (HDD) or solid-state-drive (SSD) to your motherboard's mass storage controller. If you have a recent motherboard it is likely to have both SATA 2 and SATA 3 connectors available which have a theoretical maximum bandwidth of 300MB/s and 600MB/s respectively. Traditional spinning plater HDDs will not trouble the limits of the SATA 2 bus, although recent SSDs should be used on the SATA 3 for best performance.

The performance limitations of an HDD will affect loading times and may cause a small delay in loading distant features in the landscape, as they come into range, they will not affect the performance of the graphics card, the lack of a sufficiently powerfull CPU will have a major impact as it will not send data to the graphics card fast enough to enable the card to perform at it's best. All MMOs put a heavy load on the CPU when there are a lot of players close by on-screen, especially when fighting.

Jarnhand · June 2014

What people are writing here are all good, problem is that it is NOT the problem with fps lag in ESO. ESO low FPS is a lot more complicated, and are ESO game engine related (I can see no other reason). And with patch 1.2.3 it became even worse, but I am guessing this will be fixed, but I am guessing we will still have the normal ESO FPS problem, as detailed in my thread below.

Read my thread, too much to repeat:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/110967/the-eso-engine-just-what-is-causing-low-fps-in-big-battles-game-does-not-use-computer-resources

Short version:
The ESO engine do NOT use even 1 CPU CORE, and do not use more then about 60% of your GPU.

People that do not use tools like Aida64 with a LCD keyboard display for real time ingame CPU/GPU info, or multi-screen setups, do not see the problem, and are not aware of that it even excist.

It does not matter if you get the highest cost machine you can build, the ESO engine will still not use more then about 50% of the machines resources, for some strange reason...

DirtySouthWookie · June 2014

When I built rigs with AMD cpu's they always bottlenecked. Didnt matter how HQ the GPU, MB, PSU, overclock, or anything was.. I switched to intel and all cpu problems vanished. Well worth the extra 100 bucks IMO. Not a fanboy, just stating my experience.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · June 2014

@DirtySouthWookie‌

I agree. Even a many years old i5 2500K is better to play TESO than the latest FX series AMD.
And they overclock nicely also.

For me the big shock that needed to switch to Intel after 7 years was simply TW Rome 2

On my XPS laptop (i7, GTX550M) the turn process was way faster than my FX8350 @ 5Gz. And was a laptop for heave sake.

Sold the lot cheap, added few hundred quid extra, and I doubt I will need a CPU replacement for long time.

GPU is another matter, and I am looking to get a second 780ti for more powerrrrrrr

someuser · June 2014

Sakiri wrote: »

@someuser thats why I use AMD. Cost.

I typically have $600USD to build with. Intel chips worth a damn cut into my GPU budget.

Its why my comp only has 4GB RAM too. Cost. Couldnt afford it and my last comp exploded.

@Sakiri same here. AMDs are fantastic value both with their CPUs and with the ability to not constantly change their chipset every time they release a new CPU.

My current build is pushing 6 or 7 years now and I'm still pushing 30, 40, 50, sometimes 60 FPS in many games with High or Ultra settings (and like you I currently have 4gb of ram too). My rig cost me, maybe $700 ish... So, considering what I have said above, that is a pretty damn good ROI (if you ask me).

However, I've noticed that CPU power has been stagnant lately. If you go to a website like Tomshardware.com you'll see my very old AMD 965 BE still being included in the TOP TIER of AMD processors lol.

I'm by no means a "hardware expert" but the more I think about it, the more I feel like its my bandwidth that's holding me back... In addition to building a new i7 based computer later this year, I think I may upgrade this rig with 16gb of memory and switch out the motherboard for a newer chipset... that way my kiddos can game with me lol

Sakiri · June 2014

Yeah Id love to update it but honestly, I cant afford it, I have other priorities with my limited income. Im locked into a trip overseas next year atm.

theyancey · June 2014

I am having no problems with my older GeForce 660 TI. It is certainly not an expensive card.

someuser · June 2014

Sakiri wrote: »

Yeah Id love to update it but honestly, I cant afford it, I have other priorities with my limited income. Im locked into a trip overseas next year atm.

personally, real life always takes precedents over computer stuff

its nice to have a solid gaming rig, but this one does get the job done. its just a luxury to upgrade it and, in the process, also replace the family computer.

SirAndy · June 2014

i7 with dual GTX 780s and i rarely see any lag with everything on ultra in 1920x1080.

Even after the patch with the new light shaders it has to be a huge zerg siege before i see any lagging and even then it's still playable.
;-)

Soloeus · June 2014

I am worse than all of you and don't have these performance issues. The only time I get load screens or 1FPS in Cyrodil is when everyone in the zone chat is having the same experience.

I do have a lot of moments in cities where the environment is still loading and I have to stop for several seconds a few times. These are when I get load screens.

One of the Zenimax dev's said a while back in interview that part of their load screens are loading low poly environment first then upgrading it as it buffers, another is areas where you walk slow and have a long walk, another is loading different parts of the environment separately; and finally a load screen if it has to be one.

SFBryan18 · June 2014

Try tweaking the ini to increase how much memory you use. Not sure it will work, but some of the options can be turned up for higher machines.

zhevon · June 2014

Sakiri wrote: »

Most MMOs run CPU heavy.

Problem is, if the games gonna run like crap on a lower end chip thats still well above the minimum requirements, your programmers need fired.

People with machines like the OP shouldnt still have issues.

Note that I monitor my CPU while playing. Its not capping frequency. Its running at 30-40% capacity. I need to load up Afterburner and see what my card looks like in the morning.

Game ran smooth as silk in beta.

Runs like crap after patch.

Displeased.

Not sure about this patch (haven't had a chance to spend quality time with it), but my performance has gotten steadily worse since beta as well. During beta and the initial couple of weeks it ran much smoother than it does now; and there were far more people around then.

hk11 · June 2014

I'm not sure what the issue is. Im rocking the FPS with an old i7 920 with an OC and SLI GTX 570s. Definately old by anyone standards but the game gives me no issues with frame rate.

Opioid · June 2014

I'm running a GTX Titan at 1920x1080. Usually with everything on Ultra I get a solid 80-100fps but it often likes to randomly drop to 15-20fps for no apparent reason. Sometimes it's when I'm in an area with a lot of particle effects/fog/reflections which I can somewhat understand, but sometimes I'll just be running along at 90fps and it'll just dip down to 20 for a few seconds, then go back up to 90 again for a while. It did it last night when I was in one of the delves in Craglorn. Was going just fine, cleared a couple groups, went around a corner frame rate went right into the crapper at around 20fps. I just stood there for maybe 15 or 20 seconds waiting and then it spiked back up to 80-90 range again.

I'm not entirely sure what the problem is, I've even tried dropping down to High or Medium settings and it'll still happen. Drivers are all up to date, even made sure I didn't have any settings forced on that shouldn't be in the nvidia control panel. Guessing it has to be some kind of graphics optimization thing that needs more tweaking in the game engine.

remilafo · June 2014

So upgraded to i7 4820K (oc @5Ghz), plugged a GTX780Ti @ 1293 and saw the light.

i got the same processor. im skeptical of your 5ghz OC, mine hits a wall at ~4.85 .. and from what i researched apparently i got lucky as the average seems to be about 4.7 .. unless you got SUPER lucky like in the top 1% to get a 5Ghz chip...

share your motherboard and settings please?

im jelly and would love to get 5.0Ghz OC..

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · June 2014

remilafo wrote: »

So upgraded to i7 4820K (oc @5Ghz), plugged a GTX780Ti @ 1293 and saw the light.

i got the same processor. im skeptical of your 5ghz OC, mine hits a wall at ~4.85 .. and from what i researched apparently i got lucky as the average seems to be about 4.7 .. unless you got SUPER lucky like in the top 1% to get a 5Ghz chip...

share your motherboard and settings please?

im jelly and would love to get 5.0Ghz OC..

OK here are my CPUZ statistics with my old GTX780. (bought the Ti two weeks ago)

Also I am sending you my BIOS settings link with private message, because is from an unrelated forum from here.