ArRashid wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

SO much BAD info in this thread.

Alphashado wrote: »

Main problem is that dodge, block, sprint, all cost stamina. All of these things are essential in VR content and most content in general. If your build revolves around stamina, then you are having to use stamina for two things-mitigation and dps.

So with a magicka build, your entire resource pool is for dps.
With a stamina build, your resource pool is being used for both dps and mitigation. Therefore stamina gets used up much faster.

This is VERY false. Magicka builds have to expend Magicka on stuff OTHER than JUST DPS, such as self heals, utility, CC. To say you ONLY have to spend Magicka on DPS is just plain false.

ArRashid wrote: »

Average damage on a pack of 3 mobs, during 3 seconds:

mage:
3-4x Impulse for (let's say) ~225 dmg each = 675-900 dmg

warrior:
1x heavy attack = ~350 dmg

Its a nice comparison but how about NOT comparing it to the most OP broken ability in the game or compare it to a single target ability. 350 damage is a substantial amount of damage for an attack you never run out of. Not to mention that damage is probably only at soft cap, wonder what it looks like at soft cap(see next statement).

ArRashid wrote: »

Also, it is not currently possible to go full stamina build (because all class abilities use and scale with magicka, and most non-class skills as well, just Fighter's Guild uses stamina), forcing stamina players to go hybrid, because they can't specialize so much for one stat - whereas mages can do EVERYTHING with magicka (there is even a magicka taunt, templars even have access to magicka charge).

Stamina builds DO get benefits from Magicka regardless of points in Magicka with certain abilities that every class gets such as Surge, Lighting Form, Blazing Shield, Restoring Aura.

So to say you CANT go full Stamina is just plain wrong info, you can there are plenty of Magicka abilities you can still use regardless of points in Magicka.

Just casting Critical Surge costs 560 magicka for a mere 20 second long buff (that's right, it's about 50% your magicka if you don't invest points in it or enchant it, or eat magicka food). Not to mention stamina build need at least 1 more magicka ability on their bars (either for defense, or CC, or aoe dps), which they then can cast about once per trash pack

YES but you still get the benefit from it. It doesn't scale with Magicka points. So what if you can only cast it 2-3 times. That's NOT the point. A FULL Magicka build with no points towards Stamina gets fewer uses of Block, Dodge, Stun as well.

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

SO much BAD info in this thread.

Alphashado wrote: »

Main problem is that dodge, block, sprint, all cost stamina. All of these things are essential in VR content and most content in general. If your build revolves around stamina, then you are having to use stamina for two things-mitigation and dps.

So with a magicka build, your entire resource pool is for dps.
With a stamina build, your resource pool is being used for both dps and mitigation. Therefore stamina gets used up much faster.

This is VERY false. Magicka builds have to expend Magicka on stuff OTHER than JUST DPS, such as self heals, utility, CC. To say you ONLY have to spend Magicka on DPS is just plain false.

ArRashid wrote: »

Average damage on a pack of 3 mobs, during 3 seconds:

mage:
3-4x Impulse for (let's say) ~225 dmg each = 675-900 dmg

warrior:
1x heavy attack = ~350 dmg

Its a nice comparison but how about NOT comparing it to the most OP broken ability in the game or compare it to a single target ability. 350 damage is a substantial amount of damage for an attack you never run out of. Not to mention that damage is probably only at soft cap, wonder what it looks like at soft cap(see next statement).

ArRashid wrote: »

Also, it is not currently possible to go full stamina build (because all class abilities use and scale with magicka, and most non-class skills as well, just Fighter's Guild uses stamina), forcing stamina players to go hybrid, because they can't specialize so much for one stat - whereas mages can do EVERYTHING with magicka (there is even a magicka taunt, templars even have access to magicka charge).

Stamina builds DO get benefits from Magicka regardless of points in Magicka with certain abilities that every class gets such as Surge, Lighting Form, Blazing Shield, Restoring Aura.

So to say you CANT go full Stamina is just plain wrong info, you can there are plenty of Magicka abilities you can still use regardless of points in Magicka.

Do you even play VR content? Are you really trying to suggest that cc or heals uses the same amount of magicka that blocking and dodging uses stamina? Please, get real. There are some trash mobs that will kill you in one or two shots if you don't block or dodge them. And no amount of cc (which doesn't deplete magicka near as fast as blocking depletes stamina) can stop that Mage from blasting you with a spell for 2k damage when you've got 2 melee mobs coming at you with 2h weapons that will knock you on your ass if not blocked. Melee builds are ar a major disadvantage if they rely on stamina for their dps. You are just making yourself look foolish trying to insist otherwise.

Nobody is saying that you simply can't use Stamina builds. It's just that Stamina builds are less effective than Magicka builds at the moment.

I played as a full Stamina (DW/Bow) NB until V5, where I gradually started transitioning to Magicka builds first by using resto staff in group play. I kept bow as the primary weapon for soloing until V7, at which point I totally switched to Magicka (destro staff for soloing in the vet zones, and destro/resto in group play). I have max level DW, bow, resto, destro, and 1h-shield, and have played through all of these builds and have played through all of the vet zones.

As others have mentioned, Stamina has no synergy with class skills because class skills are all magicka based. For nightblade, strife (swallow soul/funnel health) is the primary magicka ranged attack, and assassin's blade (impale/killer's blade) is the finisher that almost all NB uses, especially in solo play and pvp. Since both skills are magicka-based, using stamina is simply gimping your class skills.

Magicka does significantly more AOE damage than stamina. Impulse does twice the damage as the DW's ballerina blade because its rate of fire is much faster. For vet group dungeons, stamina builds are nearly useless when there's a large pack of mobs. Magicka has less superiority over Stamina in single target situations, but isn't worse than Stamina even for single target dps.

Magicka also has more skills to use. When farming vet zone public dungeons, I use volcanic rune to handle packs of 6 mobs, another magicka skill.

So essentially, everything is summarized as this

Magicka > Stamina

Magicka build + class skills >> Stamina build + class skills (i.e., synergy).

The sole advantage of stamina builds, at least for NBs, is that you get to move faster due to the movement bonus. But as others have mentioned, you can't afford to sprint, since you won't have enough stamina left.

Alphashado wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

SO much BAD info in this thread.

Alphashado wrote: »

Main problem is that dodge, block, sprint, all cost stamina. All of these things are essential in VR content and most content in general. If your build revolves around stamina, then you are having to use stamina for two things-mitigation and dps.

So with a magicka build, your entire resource pool is for dps.
With a stamina build, your resource pool is being used for both dps and mitigation. Therefore stamina gets used up much faster.

This is VERY false. Magicka builds have to expend Magicka on stuff OTHER than JUST DPS, such as self heals, utility, CC. To say you ONLY have to spend Magicka on DPS is just plain false.

ArRashid wrote: »

Average damage on a pack of 3 mobs, during 3 seconds:

mage:
3-4x Impulse for (let's say) ~225 dmg each = 675-900 dmg

warrior:
1x heavy attack = ~350 dmg

Its a nice comparison but how about NOT comparing it to the most OP broken ability in the game or compare it to a single target ability. 350 damage is a substantial amount of damage for an attack you never run out of. Not to mention that damage is probably only at soft cap, wonder what it looks like at soft cap(see next statement).

ArRashid wrote: »

Also, it is not currently possible to go full stamina build (because all class abilities use and scale with magicka, and most non-class skills as well, just Fighter's Guild uses stamina), forcing stamina players to go hybrid, because they can't specialize so much for one stat - whereas mages can do EVERYTHING with magicka (there is even a magicka taunt, templars even have access to magicka charge).

Stamina builds DO get benefits from Magicka regardless of points in Magicka with certain abilities that every class gets such as Surge, Lighting Form, Blazing Shield, Restoring Aura.

So to say you CANT go full Stamina is just plain wrong info, you can there are plenty of Magicka abilities you can still use regardless of points in Magicka.

Do you even play VR content? Are you really trying to suggest that cc or heals uses the same amount of magicka that blocking and dodging uses stamina? Please, get real. There are some trash mobs that will kill you in one or two shots if you don't block or dodge them. And no amount of cc (which doesn't deplete magicka near as fast as blocking depletes stamina) can stop that Mage from blasting you with a spell for 2k damage when you've got 2 melee mobs coming at you with 2h weapons that will knock you on your ass if not blocked. Melee builds are ar a major disadvantage if they rely on stamina for their dps. You are just making yourself look foolish trying to insist otherwise.

No it was stated that Magicka builds ONLY have to use Magicka on DPS. NOT TRUE. My point wasn't in the cost comparisons but in the inaccurate statement.

Veteran Rank itself is a different story altogether. MANY people play Stamina builds and make it through Veteran rank, so your rant while it might be true somehow other Stamina builds ARE making it through.

But to State Magicka builds ONLY have to worry about DPS for Magicka is WRONG. So using that as a comparison that Stamina builds need Stamina for Block, Dodge, Stun is VERY bad. Stamina builds NEED more Block, Dodge Stun so they GET more of it.

Bromburak wrote: »

ArRashid wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

SO much BAD info in this thread.

Alphashado wrote: »

Main problem is that dodge, block, sprint, all cost stamina. All of these things are essential in VR content and most content in general. If your build revolves around stamina, then you are having to use stamina for two things-mitigation and dps.

So with a magicka build, your entire resource pool is for dps.
With a stamina build, your resource pool is being used for both dps and mitigation. Therefore stamina gets used up much faster.

This is VERY false. Magicka builds have to expend Magicka on stuff OTHER than JUST DPS, such as self heals, utility, CC. To say you ONLY have to spend Magicka on DPS is just plain false.

ArRashid wrote: »

Average damage on a pack of 3 mobs, during 3 seconds:

mage:
3-4x Impulse for (let's say) ~225 dmg each = 675-900 dmg

warrior:
1x heavy attack = ~350 dmg

Its a nice comparison but how about NOT comparing it to the most OP broken ability in the game or compare it to a single target ability. 350 damage is a substantial amount of damage for an attack you never run out of. Not to mention that damage is probably only at soft cap, wonder what it looks like at soft cap(see next statement).

ArRashid wrote: »

Also, it is not currently possible to go full stamina build (because all class abilities use and scale with magicka, and most non-class skills as well, just Fighter's Guild uses stamina), forcing stamina players to go hybrid, because they can't specialize so much for one stat - whereas mages can do EVERYTHING with magicka (there is even a magicka taunt, templars even have access to magicka charge).

Stamina builds DO get benefits from Magicka regardless of points in Magicka with certain abilities that every class gets such as Surge, Lighting Form, Blazing Shield, Restoring Aura.

So to say you CANT go full Stamina is just plain wrong info, you can there are plenty of Magicka abilities you can still use regardless of points in Magicka.

Just casting Critical Surge costs 560 magicka for a mere 20 second long buff (that's right, it's about 50% your magicka if you don't invest points in it or enchant it, or eat magicka food). Not to mention stamina build need at least 1 more magicka ability on their bars (either for defense, or CC, or aoe dps), which they then can cast about once per trash pack

Well this buff is worth it though. Any dual wielding playing class would love to have a sorc skill like that.

20 seconds is a long time for a buff and the healing on weapon crit builds is awesome. There is nothing wrong about the crit surge costs ...

Well if you read people skew the info to help their point.

Magicka only has to worry about DPS. What about self heals and CC

Stamina needs to use its resource for Block, Dodge, Stun. THEY SHOULD there in melee range to USE that stuff and its WILDY important. Block and Stun allow free hits where you cant be damaged by the mob. That's ALMOST as good as a self heal, to top it off YOU CAN still self heal yourself.

Im sure theres more but these are the 2 that stick in my mind the most.

Audigy wrote: »

In theory nothing is wrong.

ESO was designed as a group game, so that different classes work together to accomplish a common goal. My experience tells me that a group of 4 different classes works best, but you can also pick 1 NB, 2 Templar and 1 Sorcerer if you like.

VR´s in general were never meant to be soloed, while some Ranger & Rogue like Chars could solo VR mobs during Beta, the aim was that you look for a group there.

Unfortunately do many players think that the game should always be a solo game, so they attempt VR mobs alone and then of course die. The blame then always goes to the Devs for making their class not strong enough, just because some other class somehow managed to do the quest where they failed.

Another aspect is, that ZO made the mistake and allowed DPS meters. As soon people have those in their hands they will abuse them and either kick those with less or complain that their own DPS is not as high as for instance of a Mage.

MMO´s are never balanced like a shooter or an arcade RPG. They are supposed to offer different Chars and those of course are not all as strong as the other, but will give a benefit in a specific situation while they need help at another.

When I play with my Tank, then I do know that having a DPS and a Healer is crucial as I don't do high DPS and also can´t heal myself good enough. For others however a Char must be god like and like He-Man. I think its a shame that it has come down to this in MMO´s, but I guess that's just how it is.


The only concern that I have and this now is the practical part, are the Stamina eating mechanics.

In my opinion as a tank, you just need to much of it. To dodge is crucial and if you do it 4 times then you are a sitting duck plus you also need to consider that your attacks need stamina. This definitely needs a fix, while using Stamina should require basic knowledge and timing, it should not cripple a Char as much as it does now.

But as I said, this isn't about damage or solo VR - this is about being a reliable tank in a group and there that role has issue´s due the lack of Stamina.

People need to stop claiming VR zones are for grouping. You really think that in this day and age they have created an MMO in which you need to be grouped to level for two thirds of the leveling process? You are utterly *** if you think that.

They intend you to be able to get to VR 10 completely solo, if you choose. If not then they developed this game a full decade too late. Any game which limits level cap to groups only will fail misserably, .... hmmm..... they could not have, they really could not have, the utter eejits, if appears they did think that could work.

Maybe they should get rid of weapon skills altogether.
Make it like in Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim:
- only passive skills for the different melee/ranged weapons (those can include stamina cost reduction for blocking)
- only light attacks (just like we have now with no stamina cost) and heavy attacks that cost stamina (which can also have cost reduction in the passive skills)
Damage values on weapons might have to be scaled up for the loss of skill modifiers.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

So you guys are upset that casters are going more damage then medium and heavy armor wearers who have a higher defensive stat.

However, due to game design, casters achieve the same defensive capabilities as even heavy armor wearers, and have better magicka regen focus.

It's not the players fault. It's simply the way the caps in the game, the finesse skills, and how passives were built.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Anyone who tries to block 3 trash mobs spawn in VR, is facing certain death.

While 1-50 is working perfectly, in VR content is a big NO NO.

The only way to survive is DPS, medium armour, and roll on the floor all the time (dodge). And by DPS I do count 2H and DW. (Shield now is crap).

Incorrect. Heavy armor Templar 1H (axe)and Sh VR 10 do it 80% of the time. I can block 3 melee mobs of the same level indefinitely with self buffs, and kill them all with light/heavy attacks and 1 STA attack(Deep Slash reduces target damage by 15%) and the occasional Blazing spear. Shield passives drop the damage taken after block to 30% or less for base melee and ranged/spell (as opposed to base 50%) depending on spec. 1H /Sh itself has an additional+15% vs ranged/ basic spells.

Templar with all sword and board / templar passives is 70% general 85% vs. basic attacks (and with a 30% block cost reduction). If I slot Absorb magic IV (1H /Sh spell reflect skill, (don't have to have it up, just slot it)), is adds another 8% for 78% general reduction 93% vs basic attacks (light/heavy)

yes...
78% general reduction
93% vs all basic attacks
block for 38% less cost

EDIT: Note: also note I use Hist bark armor, so I have a 20% chance of passive dodge while blocking, but I sill played like this to VR9, (where I was using three 3sets whitestrake's, magnus's gift and seducer)

I slot 2 block cost reduction / bash cost reduction glyphs for ~60 sta more off blocking. I can stand there all day.

Basic attacks hit me for about 1.5% cost me about %5 sta

With radiant aura up my sta regen is 95, so that is pretty much no problem.

The trick at VR is swinging between enemy swings (which is hard with 3 mobs). At higher VRs they throw more specials, so bashing a special and not getting hit by the others is kind of hard. It actually works better to stun a mob and use the timing break in attacks to hit the other mobs, rather than focusing on the stunned mob (unless it is a healer). Mobs that take themselves out of fights like warriors that charge like clannfear and wasps, let you beat up on the other 2 much easier. The guys that take turns winding up heavys and stunning themselves are super easy.



I have to be a lot more active with 1 or 2 casters in the pack and use spell reflections, while dodging specials.

I only roll from the biggest circles, I can walk/block avoid all cones and small circles.

I can stand and solo storm astros, trolls, gargs etc.

It isn't fast, but I can take a beating. I could tweak it some more, but my enchanting is dragging (level 5-7 runes), so my jewelery is kinda low, and my armor glyphs are white storebought.



Dunno about med armor.

aipex8_ESO wrote: »

I don't think a 4th resource should be added. It doesn't fit the TES paradigm and no matter what you name it, it's just another word for stamina. Just make it easier for us stamina users to manage it.

Even in Skyrim, stamina was used for power attacks, sprinting, etc. There wasn't exactly 'abilities' to draw from it in the same manner as here. Since this game alters that mechanic with weapon, armor and fighters guild abilities, I believe it might be necessary to further change the formula to compensate.

OkieDokie wrote: »

Honestly, the idea that you should be able to pull the same damage just by picking any weapon is wrong (sorry, that is my opinion).

If you look at it as a secondary source of damage, it is almost fine. Just need a better resource management (and that is what they are doing now).

aipex8_ESO wrote: »

1) Make some class skills use Stamina. Not only would this help stamina builds, but it gives you more to think about when spending those skill points. Right now I just put a point in everything I have to at least try it out. If I had to think about whether it costs magicka or stamina I would be a little more selective. For NBs, skills like ambush and impale could be stamina, where strife and shadow cloak would remain magicka. You could even go with one class has all magicka based (sorc), two with split (maybe NB and temp) and one be all stamina (DK), though that would impede on "play as you want" so maybe not.

No, thank you. That would be a disaster as you split resources and unbalance classes even more. Look, all class skills are magicka and it makes sense this way.

But not all weapon skills are magicka based, which causes confusion. Nor all armor skills stamina based. Or all guild skills one or the other.

It would make sense if, say, destruction and healing staves used stamina for their abilities, not in the practical sense of the action itself, but because they are weapon skills. This is along the general principle that a Nightblades 'assassins' blade', a melee attack with a dagger, is a class skill and thus should be magicka based.

The lack of any real set of 'rules' is why this game is confusing. Nothing really makes sense. Just try to sort out which nightblade abilities use spell crit and which use weapon crit.

The problem with stamina builds, IMO, seems to be this, weapon based(sta) skills aren't made to be dps filler, they are utility skills and DoT skills meant to be used when appropriate while you spam light/heavy attacks. This would be fine, except weapon damage is insignificant compared to the magicka based class skills you can spam. This becomes even more of a problem if you take into account animation canceling, where someone can output high amounts of damage by using more attacks in less time. If ZOS were to simply up weapon dmg it would change nothing, as magicka based animation cancelers would do increased dmg as well. The problem is made worse because melee class skills cost magicka, use spell dmg to scale their dmg, but use weapon crit. So people trying to use class skills and melee weapons get double screwed because they have to split resources and can't stack like pure light armor magicka users.

I think part of the fix is likely this, have staves basic attacks scale off your spell dmg, as the attack is magical anyway, increase weapon dmg and it's overcharge caps(softcap) and make all melee class skills still cost magicka, but have their dmg scale off of weapon dmg. This would allow for an increased weapon damage to bring melee up to par with magicka builds, without affecting the already good dps of magicka based builds, then melee builds would have the same ability to do animation canceling(if this going to be allowed to continue) using class skills and light/heavy attacks, and use weapon skills to fill the gap caused by the lack of resource/regen to spam magicka based skills as effectively.

I've always been prone to the idea that weapons differentiate themselves on speed of delivery and damage done, with some variation on accessory damage. So while not every weapon is created equal, they appeal to different playstyles. The fast-click player equips small knives or short bows. The slower, methodical player equips a two-hander.

The weapons fit the playstyle. They aren't universal. One positive thing I could say for the two weapon classes in Neverwinter Online. While many of their roles overlapped, Guardian Fighters and Greatweapon Fighters played completely differently, allowing two very different types of players to do the same thing.

Because to be honest, not all players are created equal, something many games overlook. It's not even a matter of 'better' and 'worse'. Some are faster with keyboards, other with the mouse. Some are better at judging skill rotations, others are better at getting in the best positions. Some go by numbers, others go by flair.

A perfect game appeals to all the different types using a variety of gameplay mechanics.

lim30041982 wrote: »

murklor007neb18_ESO wrote: »

There is absolutely nothing wrong with stamina builds. The fault lies in the magicka design. ALL (and I do mean ALL) class skills are magicka. That render stamina builds completely worthless, because you cripple your class.

For example, my Nightblade use medium armor (for boosting weapon damage and sneaking) and dual wielding as primary, but I am forced to enchant everything for magicka because all I use is class skills. I only have 5 skill slots because I play on the EU server - weapon swapping does not work in the heat of battle, especially not in PvP. I need the stealth, I need the backstabbing, I need the teleport, I need finisher. That's 4 out of 5 class skills. The 5th, granted I sometimes take the dagger throw for that. But I cant base my entire build around having 1 stamina skill.

^ This +100 , my dragon knight never read a book (like sorceres) he is training hard with his muscle , kill a bear with barehand , drinks mead with tavern girls , climbing a mountain every day , but when in a battle he want to whack a necromancer the game say "you must use ur mind (magicka) to use that skill"

wtf ?????

Because the fire breathing and scorpion chains and talons coming out of the ground is just you flexing your muscles, right?

Maybe not all class abilities should be magicka based. But there are a few that are pretty self-explanatory.

jelliedsoup wrote: »

OkieDokie wrote: »

Honestly, the idea that you should be able to pull the same damage just by picking any weapon is wrong (sorry, that is my opinion).

If you look at it as a secondary source of damage, it is almost fine. Just need a better resource management (and that is what they are doing now).

Why should Class skills cuase more damage than weapons? Both are resources to be used, except stamina is already used by running, dodging blocking etc so it will always be lower than magicka unless you allocate points etc to it.

If you want people to play differenty ways, then weapon damage should be equal (not more, not less). There should be weapon ultimates as well.


If they are a poor second cousin, then why spend skills point on them. The cost of stamina is just as much as magicka in this game, just the output is not.

Obviously, it is just my opinion, but give it some thought.

It doesn't matter what weapon you choose, you primary skills or talents come from you class. It is the game concept, really. This is not that medieval reality where the dumb warrior smashes his enemies, there is no such thing when this 'dumb warrior' is capable of using ultimate magicka skills.

And yes, you're right. No good reason for spending points on it except for play style.

Again, just my opinion, but by looking at how the game reality works, I'm convinced they've thought of it in the same way. Therefore, no matter how bad you want it, you're trying something that cannot be achieved.

If someday they say class skills and weapon skills are supposed to be even, then I agree stamina needs a lot of work. But they've never said that, people are just assuming it even if the entire world screams the opposite.