Morticielle wrote: »

Let's do a count here: Two thirds don't want Arena PvP. Well, then it is decided. ZoS can save some time and put that time in actually debugging this game!

You have totally misinterpreted the poll. The poll asks: "Do you really want arena pvp?", NOT "Are you against adding arena PVP?".

Of the people who voted no, some likely just do not "really want" arena.

So what you get out of it is that nearly 40% of respondents "really want" some form of arena pvp, while about 60% are not bothered either way. Obviously some of that 60% or so are dead set against having arena type pvp content (although no logical reason for why they feel so strongly about it has been presented).

The poll is totally biased and quite ridiculous anyway, but from the discussion it is clear that lots of people would like some kind of "arena" (actually I hate how all these polls use that word because it is so vague).

Even taking the results of this totally wacked poll and extrapolating to the entire player base, you get about 40% of the population "really wanting" to play arena. That's quite a lot, especially considering there are some people who do not want to play any form of pvp.

Yasha wrote: »

You have totally misinterpreted the poll. The poll asks: "Do you really want arena pvp?", NOT "Are you against adding arena PVP?".

Of the people who voted no, some likely just do not "really want" arena.

So what you get out of it is that nearly 40% of respondents "really want" some form of arena pvp, while about 60% are not bothered either way. Obviously some of that 60% or so are dead set against having arena type pvp content (although no logical reason for why they feel so strongly about it has been presented).

The poll is totally biased and quite ridiculous anyway, but from the discussion it is clear that lots of people would like some kind of "arena" (actually I hate how all these polls use that word because it is so vague).

Even taking the results of this totally wacked poll and extrapolating to the entire player base, you get about 40% of the population "really wanting" to play arena. That's quite a lot, especially considering there are some people who do not want to play any form of pvp.

This is a rather straightforward poll. There is no bias whatsoever. I asked a simple question and your choices are either yes or no. You either really want arenas or you really don't. Lets not try and change the actual intent of the thread because it may not be in line with your views.

Plenty of reasons have been provided for why an arena system could be detrimental to ESO. It's merely an issue on your part that you either fail to comprehend them or you aren't willing to consider them. Either way, the point of this poll is to gauge whether this is a system people actually want or don't.

Keep in mind a majority, if not all, of the posters in this section of the forums, dedicated to the Alliance War, only care for PvP and are solely invested in that aspect of the game. If this percentage were to be compared to anyone, it should be exclusively the PvP community.

This means 37% of the PvP community really wants an arena while 62% really doesn't. This is based off what we know of the arena so far and the experiences many have had with arena PvP in various other MMORPGs over the past decade. The only reason a majority likely doesn't want arena PvP is pure and simple. They came to this game for RvR (AvA).

Arena PvP has become a rather common staple amongst PvE MMORPGs. Virtually every Theme Park that is available offers this kind of experience. RvR, on the other hand, is a rare breed and very few MMOs can even emulate it properly. RvR is very different from arena PvP, and again, the main draw and major force for advertising this game was Cyrodiil and the AvA.

It really then shouldn't be too much of a surprise at all that most would likely want the focus to remain on AvA. That's why they bought the game and that's what they pay for. Implementing other PvP systems never originally part of the vision merely leads to potential issues and various unintended consequences.

This is a matter of people wanting the product they paid for staying true to its core principles. Again, I am not against the idea of an arena, if it were implemented in such a way that would benefit and add to ESO. I am just against a traditional arena, of which would only further exacerbate issues and really doesn't work with this kind of MMO.

No.

My common sense (an uncommon virtue) approach to small scale PvP:

(1) Organize a small group of about 4 players and start patrolling between two opposing factions strongholds that are being attacked. I guarantee you someone is thinking the exact same thing as you'll be. You'll find some action.

(2) Jump on tamrielfoundry or better yet (here) and ask if any opposing factions would like to organize some 1v1 in a designated zone of Cyrodil on said name server. Bring a couple of friends to rez and swap.

(3) Create a Multifaction PvP guild that caters to small scale PvP, lol.

Does this sound too hard to do or do the developers have to reprogram the game and cater to the minority of Yes'ers on this poll?

hasselhoffman wrote: »

No.

My common sense (an uncommon virtue) approach to small scale PvP:

(1) Organize a small group of about 4 players and start patrolling between two opposing factions strongholds that are being attacked. I guarantee you someone is thinking the exact same thing as you'll be. You'll find some action.

(2) Jump on tamrielfoundry or better yet (here) and ask if any opposing factions would like to organize some 1v1 in a designated zone of Cyrodil on said name server. Bring a couple of friends to rez and swap.

(3) Create a Multifaction PvP guild that caters to small scale PvP, lol.

Does this sound too hard to do or do the developers have to reprogram the game and cater to the minority of Yes'ers on this poll?

This is why I find the posters who are fighting for this to be a little silly. Cyrodiil accommodates all types of PvP, whether large scale, small scale, dueling, etc. I already know plenty of guilds who have organized 8v8s in Cyrodiil and have a blast doing it.

My question is why do we need ZOS to waste time and resources on implementing something that is already possible in Cyrodiil? Are people just too lazy? I'd like to hear a valid and well-thought reason for why an arena is absolutely pivotal for this game's success.

Lets also stop using the flawed logic that "if arenas were implemented, then a lot of players and more would come back." If players have already left for another game or are playing an MMO that already offers arenas, why would they leave it to return here? ESO was never about arenas and certainly many other games are actually built to support that kind of experience.

You know what, bring it on actually.

A little resume. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewMf6hWG-2Q

Gravord wrote: »

Stop ask same question and read previous 10 pages, you have answer there why ppl want arenas in ESO.

Why would ppl return? Quite simple - ESO have superior lore, better graphic, nice combat system, but offer only zergfest with minimal chance for small scale equal number combat and ppl get tired of it very fast, except those zergboys hiding behind 10 oils and 20 npc.

So your answer is because arenas provide "competitive" and "skill-based" PvP even though anyone who has participated in an arena knows this is a lie? All I've really heard those in favor of arenas say is that RvR isn't real PvP and that it's just a bunch of PvErs with zergs acting like they are good. Which again forces me to ask the question: Why did you come to this game?

You think that most of the PvP community cares about lore? You are very naive indeed friend... The graphics are nice, but an MMO such as AoC proved that graphics aren't enough to make a game succeed. Combat really isn't that much different from GW2, Tera, and some other action-oriented MMO, so that's a moot point.

My issue with your argument is you are largely projecting your opinion as if it represents everyone who has left. I believe more people have left ESO because AvA is not working as intended, rather than it just being a "zergfest." Again, small scale PvP is organized all of the time on various campaigns. Start communicating with some of the other factions and you might be surprise what you can actually accomplish.

Greetings,

Forum polls are useless so no vote here - but for the record - I am definitely in favor of a map or option that supports small group action or solo action, be it a BG or Arena (I'd prefer BG's, but Arena's will have a stronger pull).

With regards to balance...whiners will whine...regardless of pvp options available. There's a gazillion examples in these here forums already.

Good Hunting,

Phaade

Gravord wrote: »

In fact i do as 80% of my guild members already left ESO and shared their opinion with me why its happening. And it was same phrases from all of them "blob zergest spamming too powerfull siege weapons", "no small scale scenarios where ppl can do proper 4vs4 fights anytime they want", "i want fight only vs real players not NPC and siege everywhere" and so on. So yes, there quite solid amount of ppl i know who are willing to back and play ESO soon as there is working scenario system as alternative option to orvr in Cyrodiil.

Yes, it bring much more skill based combat as you cant run and spam Impulse in 4v4 and you not getting fully Barrier ultimate recharge every 5 seconds as it happen in 24 man group. But im afraid you are not right person to discuss on this matter since you suggest before in this topic that 4vs4 would be about Impulse spam. Lets just give you a little tip - Impulse crit 300 dmg, in 4 seconds you can do 1200 dmg with it, not even half hp of proper build character. Contrary to that proper build NB can do 3k dmg in 4 seconds. Do a math yourself whats more usefull in 4vs4.
And yes, scenarios can reveal imbalance between classes. Let them do it! Sooner problems get notice faster they will be fix (still assuming Zenimax care about their own game future).

Cyrodiil have lots issues, but Zenimax have enough manpower to work on them and add new content as 2-3 different scenarios, somehow they had enough to add entire new zone Working on Cyrodiil fixes is not excuse to block entire game progress.

First of all, how large is your guild? If your guild were say ten players, of which I'm assuming your guild must be small since you are advocating so much for small scale PvP, that means eight players left. While that might be a lot to you personally, I'm looking more at the broad picture of the entire player base.

Secondly, you knew what you were paying for when you bought this game. You knew there were no arenas. You knew there were no battlegrounds. I continue to lack empathy for you because you should have known what you were getting yourself into.

Trying to now bully your way around and change the culture of the game for a minority will not resolve anything. All it will do is give ZOS the excuse to disregard the PvP system they actually built to support this game, AvA. Again, if all you wanted was small scale PvP and arenas, you should have never even considered ESO. It was never part of the vision for the game.

You don't seem to get it. Arenas make class balance worse. Arenas will also foster even less skill, as players will more heavily depend on OP/FOTM specs and compositions to steamroll matches. It doesn't matter if Impulse spamming is viable or not. Players will find other broken specs to abuse. Then even more will whine and complain about what needs to be nerfed. The problem then arises of how this will not only affect classes in arenas, but also Cyrodiil and in PvE content.

What you are doing is building an unstable tree house in a tree that was never grown to support it. You are further complicating a game that already has problems, and you will only further escalate issues rather than resolving them. I want ZOS to actually fix this game and provide that premium service they love to talk about all the time.

Traditional arenas are not the answer, especially not with the current PvP system being in such horrible condition. If ZOS is wise and wants to maintain what player base they have left, they will fix Cyrodiil and improve the experience they have been promoting since the game was announced. No other PvP system should even be considered until AvA is fixed, and certainly not one that would undermine it.

Gravord wrote: »

Wall of text repeating same stuff as last 10 pages. All you fear that arenas can bring IS already in game, wake up and see it.
Fotm classes? Really?? You think we need arena to have those in ESO?

Less skills? Current Cyrodiil is build on blob spamming stacking Barriers with Impulses and root/volcanic rune. And those are "better" teams, rest blobbers just sit on walls and spam oil/catapults 24/7.

Again, as few pages ago, dont say to 1/3 voting population to *** off to another game when they ask for improvement to game they pay for. No one saying you to leave if you dont like ESO evolving.

Lastly, get your facts straight. Devs already said they will add arena if playerbase ask for it: click here and read yourself

So 1/3 playerbase voting in this topic is asking

Well sadly I have to continue repeating myself because you apparently continue to fail to see the point. You may want to reread what I have said. Class balance will be worse with an arena. It always is. The game has enough problems with class balance already. We don't need arenas further complicating the issue.

Skill isn't about spamming a rotation or min/maxing gear. Skill isn't even about your class or the build that you play. Skill is purely built on situational awareness, knowing how to fighting and adapt under pressure, and knowing the ins and outs of every class in a system.

Very few players in MMOs have skill when it comes to PvP. They rely on FOTM classes and compositions to compensate for what they lack. An arena would merely make the situation you see in Cyrodiil a lot worse and more obvious. Really, go try out an arena in any MMO and see for yourself what kind of experience you have.

Believe it or not, but not everybody is "blob spamming" or using impulse or other well-known abilities. Certainly those are popular builds and some will make use of them, but the majority does not. Regardless, I'm not going to argue with you what kind of skill AvA requires since you have a rather jaded view on the system entirely.

I'm not telling anyone to leave. I'm saying it was foolish of you to demand for an arena in a game that was never offering that experience. I'd much rather ZOS fix the current game and finish AvA, such as adding the Imperial City, instead of further splintering the player base and adding systems that don't make sense and would please a minority.

For one, you are using a secondary source to speak for ZOS. Fan sites are unreliable and misinterpret game development all of the time. Take everything they say with a grain of salt unless ZOS explicitly says it on the official forums or elderscrollsonline.com. Secondly, this article is a year and three months old! Are you really going to use this as evidence of what ZOS may or may not do? Come on. Lastly, read the fine print of what they said about arenas, "we want everybody to investing in Cyrodiil following the launch of the game."

If an arena were to be implemented, assuming we can go based off of such an out of date and irrelevant article, it sounds like ZOS would actually be going my route. The fact they want to encourage more to invest their time into Cyrodiil sounds a lot like a system that would actually be intrinsically tied to AvA rather being separate. I wouldn't get too excited if I were you.

There will always be players in favor of something. Just because I want ZOS to add the Bard's College and give me skill lines based around instruments and dancing doesn't mean it will happen if I beg for it. Again, ZOS has a direction and a vision for ESO. If arenas happen to fit into that vision, then it is something they may tackle.

Sleevez340 wrote: »

All the WoW fanboys want arena, cuz they dont wanna play on a team and siege, same ppl that just go and gank all day long in cyrodiil and get mad when its more than a 1v1.

Lowbei wrote: »

solutions to make it not distract from cyrodiil have already been proposed, so your point is invalid

Just because they have intended solutions doesnt mean theyre going to work. Otherwise this game wouldnt need balancing.. So your point is invalid.

I just don't understand why a lot of these players are complaining about AvA. The whole point is for there to be faction camaraderie and to siege other keeps. That is the primary function of AvA.

The great thing about Cyrodiil, though, is that it's a sandbox where anything can happen. More play styles than just "blob zergs" are viable, and yet these folks try to make excuses about how limiting this open world system actually is.

You cannot turn ESO into something it is not. AvA was the key feature and if ZOS was foolish enough to give up on that, then this game will be a failure. How about instead of trying to wreck the game, folks, we rally together to encourage ZOS to fix it?

Rylana wrote: »

Flurry, Starsider, and Chilastra were my main three servers after the consolidation. My original home server was Lowca. I also had chars on Bloodfin and Euro Farstar.

http://swg.activeframe.de/bb-std/tp/main.16.starsider.rylana_dionysis.html

Shadowfire was never a competitive server, no one played there, it had one of the lowest killcounts in the entire game.

http://swg.activeframe.de/bb-std/tp-en/main.12.html

Take a look through the weekly dropdown, Shadowfire was always a 2 percent or lower server for population, Starsider was the juggernaut, and the PvP servers were Bloodfin before 2011, and then Flurry and Chilastra later.

I dont have the time right now to go through all of my toons, but I had over 50,000 combined kills in PvP, both battlefield and Restuss.

Which btw raises a significant point, when did you stop playing, because you must have, in the last two years of the game the only competitive PvP was done in the battlefields, Restuss was line camping numbers game garbage rife with lolspais and glowbats.

Flurry was a PvE server. I had friends who transferred there. Starsider was originally an RP server that became over-bloated and had terrible PvP. I had friends who transferred there. I was on Chilastra after I was forced to transfer off of Shadowfire, and PvP definitely wasn't competitive. The PvP community was absolutely horrible.

Shadowfire was definitely competitive. The server died, however, when SOE started consolidating servers and allowing free character transfers. Many of the PvP guilds were transferring to either Starsider, Bloodfin, or Chilastra. Character transfers killed SWG off faster than anything else.

I find it hilarious you are using this website as a resource. You do realize all this data was accumulated after Shadowfire was already dead? It's entirely skewed. Most of our top PvPers had already left the server or quit the game by then. It has me listed on Chilastra, of which the game was far dead by that time. From 2008 to 2010, Shadowfire was definitely at the top.

http://swg.activeframe.de/bb-std/tp/main.16.Chilastra.aowin'_stargrazer.html

I knew players who went to Bloodfin and they informed me it was more drama and trolling than actual PvP. As I stated before, most of Shadowfire only participated in PvP. Sadly, this website doesn't accurately reflect what Shadowfire was before the transfers hit.

Are you really going to use player kills to qualify skill? Come on. The person with the most kills on my server who had like 50k was a spy and all he would do is sit in stealth and drop gas all day long. Half of the "kills" he received weren't even legitimate. How many player kills you have hardly is a measure of how good you were actually at the game.

I stopped officially playing during the summer of 2011 when SOE announced on the forums the game was being shut down. My guild was disbanded before then due to the game starting to drag and the server starting to empty. If you were sitting outside the Restuss outpost near the hill, that was your problem. All of the bad players who were rolling as commando, officer, dark jedi, smuggler, or spy would sit there trying to get kills.

We'd just lure them into the city and have competitive PvP that way. We would also organize PvP and start guild wars with the top imp PvP guilds on the server as we would get challenges all of the time. We occasionally had some decent matches in Battlefields, but again Battlefields were focused more on objectives and less on just killing.

Definitely all of the best PvP I ever had in SWG was open world or at Restuss. Battlefields were largely a joke, partially because of LOS in buildings, but also the ent buff exploit, and all the other crap that happened.

I should also point out that the data you found on me is out of date since I was forced to transfer, I had to change my name to Aowin' Stargrazer. Regardless, as I have stated before, this website is a rather terrible source to determine how competitive Shadowfire was or how good players were since kills meant nothing and it gives statistics at the end of the game's life cycle.

Rylana wrote: »

I will point out that activeframe used the official numbers provided by SOE during the weekly officers salute for its stats. They author of the site merely organized the data so it could be read.

Starsider had a bad rap for being about roleplay. Sure there was that crap going on, but it had an immense population, and as such, also had a sizeable PvP community regardless of other endeavors people got into. As a result of its size it also had a "walmart" feel on its vendors, anything you wanted you could get, so gearing for PvP was very easy for a transfer.

You talk about the transfers killing PvP. And maybe that was true for shadowfire, I do not know, I was never on that server, but its stats clearly show that at least as far as the records go, it was never a major player (unless it was a few guys fightclubbing it at some point, I know that happened during bloodfin 2.0, which i was a part of, the same 20 people doing organized matches, etc)

If anything, those same transfers are what made Starsider, Chilastra (late), and Flurry (late) the big three PvP servers, all of the PvPers went to where the population was. Remember the game was dying slowly, 2010/2011 were a couple of really bad years, almost as bad as the year following NGE. Everyone knew the game was on its last legs, so we followed the population. Starsider was the last "heavy" server.

I was a very casual player up until 2009, so before that I didnt get much into the scene (the competitive big names scene). Most of what I know is post 2009, and from that I can flat out tell you that my servers were the biggest ones.

At any rate, in 2010/2011 winning a battlefield (a premade battlefield, mind, with teams that were coordinated, voicecommed, experienced, and had profession balance) was not an easy task. I ran with some of the best teams in SWG PvP history. I also lost to them. But when all was said and done, I never saw the sheer level of competition I did in battlefields, anywhere else.

I was also an avid fan of solo running overt all over the place, open world PvP is a game I can get into heavily, I like the danger of it. But my primary mode is small group vs small group. Never was a fan of huge blobfests of people, mass assault, etc.

Even our guild here in ESO is a small group ganksquad of players, were rarely ever field more than five of us at a time. its just what we know. Me from SWG, others from other games, all of us from STO and so on.

So when I say bring it on, its not because I necessarily think I am some kind of PvP badass that is looking for an ego stroke, its because its actually the mode of gameplay my friends and i are the best at. We might get stomped out there solo, by a big zerg, by another gank we didnt see coming, but even numbers competitive fights? Oh thats where the game is. So I say bring it on.

Oh trust me, I'm aware there was more happening on Starsider than just RP. That's what the server was originally though, and the only comments I heard about Starsider was terrible lag and terrible PvP. One of the biggest (and worst) imperial guilds from my server, OWNZ, transferred to Starsider for PvP. You may have ran into them or their infamous leader, Cyco. He and all of his main officers were Elder Jedi, so they were easy to spot.

Shadowfire did become rather niche. We had a great population from 2008 to 2010, but with free character transfers and other MMOs coming out, we had a serious drain on our population. Many of our top players left the server leaving it a shell of its former self.

You are absolutely right. Many on Shadowfire went to those servers because they heard that's where the "good PvP" was. By that time, the game was long over the hill and I wasn't actively playing as much, as many great players had already left. SOE had begun locking servers by that point as well due to overpopulation, so following the herd wasn't exactly an option.

I don't doubt the activeness and numbers of your servers. All I was merely arguing was before SWG started to collapse and players leaving in droves, Shadowfire was definitely one of the top servers for competitive PvP. When I say competitive, I mean the actual amount of quality PvPers, versus bad players who were rolling FOTM classes and specs.

You missed out then if you didn't have competitive PvP outside of Battlefields. Like I said before, with the LOS'ing building issues, the focus on the objectives, and many that were queued just to gain the rewards, finding quality PvP in Battlefields was difficult. We had to organize either guild wars with other quality guilds, go to base busts, or hang out at Restuss where 90% of the PvPers were at most times.

Some of my most memorable fights were bounty hunters who tried to collect my bounty that I had been accumulating for months. At one point, I had three bounty hunters try and take me down and it still wasn't enough. The only way players could collect it was by having a large group gank me while I was special forces and getting the lucky death blow or somehow catching me off guard if I wasn't buffed.

I'm not against small scale PvP and I think all aspects of PvP should be encouraged. All I've merely stated is many have already begun organizing 8v8s and the like in Cyrodiil. You don't need an arena or a battleground to organize PvP. We certainly didn't need it in SWG and I had duels, small scale fights, or large scale ones all the time in the game. It just depended on what people wanted to do.

I'm all for an arena if it makes sense in ESO and compliments Cyrodiil. I offered a potential idea for how to implement it in the OP and there are certainly many other ways of doing as well. I'm just against a very structured, separate system that will largely create more problems with balance and continue to compromise the PvP experience. All I really want is for there to be quality PvP. That's the only reason I play this game.

Imperator_Clydus wrote: »

Well sadly I have to continue repeating myself because you apparently continue to fail to see the point. You may want to reread what I have said. Class balance will be worse with an arena. It always is. The game has enough problems with class balance already. We don't need arenas further complicating the issue.

It always is xD hahahahaha
Best argumentation ever, when we have people like you forumfighting in every MMOs forum we will never have arena again. There will also be no arena done right if devs are not "allowed" to implement one.

Imperator_Clydus wrote: »

Skill isn't about spamming a rotation or min/maxing gear. Skill isn't even about your class or the build that you play. Skill is purely built on situational awareness, knowing how to fighting and adapt under pressure, and knowing the ins and outs of every class in a system.

Of course skill is also about doing the math and adjust your equip to your playstyle. What you describe as skill is just experience I could train an ape to do that. But if you want to be on one level with the ape I trained... your choice.
(If there is a limited amount of possibilities it can be trained )
(Skill is about being steps ahead not about reacting properly as it can be seen in chess)

Imperator_Clydus wrote: »

Very few players in MMOs have skill when it comes to PvP. They rely on FOTM classes and compositions to compensate for what they lack. An arena would merely make the situation you see in Cyrodiil a lot worse and more obvious. Really, go try out an arena in any MMO and see for yourself what kind of experience you have.

LOL, sorcs and DKs will not be as op as they are currently in rvr simply because you can counter them easily in 1on1 not so easily in 50vs50.
(for advices you can write me a pm I gladly help you out there is much of work to do )

Imperator_Clydus wrote: »

Believe it or not, but not everybody is "blob spamming" or using impulse or other well-known abilities. Certainly those are popular builds and some will make use of them, but the majority does not. Regardless, I'm not going to argue with you what kind of skill AvA requires since you have a rather jaded view on the system entirely.

Opposite is the case. Is it easy the pugs will do it, if it requires a rotation its way too much work.

Imperator_Clydus wrote: »

I'm not telling anyone to leave. I'm saying it was foolish of you to demand for an arena in a game that was never offering that experience. I'd much rather ZOS fix the current game and finish AvA, such as adding the Imperial City, instead of further splintering the player base and adding systems that don't make sense and would please a minority.

No, you are not telling anybody to leave directly with those words you do it the political way. The author can always say "that was not my intention read the book again" but here in forums nobody cares about the political blabla, what people think you said thats what you said.
And I wouldnt call 37% a minority please you make a joke out of the word minority. 37% can speak for themselves well and have power. They even could form a government in reallife. (explaining basic things because education is a rare gift in specific western countries is exhausting btw )

Imperator_Clydus wrote: »

There will always be players in favor of something. Just because I want ZOS to add the Bard's College and give me skill lines based around instruments and dancing doesn't mean it will happen if I beg for it. Again, ZOS has a direction and a vision for ESO. If arenas happen to fit into that vision, then it is something they may tackle.

Not if only you want it but if 37% of the customers want it well then it should have an impact on their decisionmaking.
If you want to get me with the 6x% against let me tell you that in my opinion arenas will not impact classbalance as much as rvr does right now.

Gisgo wrote: »

Last time i checked 63 was more than 37, not sure if math changed recently.

Not sure where you got your math from but if a factory looses 37% of its customers just because they dont offer a yellow shirt then it is not so good. :P
(exaggeration to point things out )

some people learn about life in school it is sad

nan.jieb17_ESO wrote: »

some people learn about life in school it is sad

Be aware everytime you bring the "life" argument on a forum it is fair to assume you dont have one... so yeah, what were you saying anyway?