ESO is a great RPG, terrible MMO.

daneyulebub17_ESO · June 2014

I still like sooooo much in ESO, and will stay at least through the first major update, but wow--the wasted potential (so far). Simply because they don't seem to have any understanding of the bare minimum requirements of an MMO. So many small things could have been added already to bring it closer to what's just assumed to be present in any MMO feature set, but so far, little seems to have happened. Its great they focus on balance and bots and VR tweaks, but they seem to be ignoring that the biggest problem with the game for many non-pvp'ers and non-rush-to-endgame'ers is its crippled social, utility and MMO features.

I mean--the guild bank interface is like jabbing hot irons in my eyes. Then there's the horrible grouping. And the anonymity that just infuses the entire player experience. No housing, no cosmetics. You can't even inspect other players to compare gear, or /follow, or be audibly notified someone is sending you a tell without an add-on.

We played LotRO again a while last week--and, wow--the difference in the social aspect was striking. We were communicating, emoting at each other, effectively grouping, comparing gear, trying different cosmetic outfits. If that game hadn't been so borked by F2P and easy-fying everything, we'd probably go back for good. It's become a bad game in many ways, but it's still a fun, full featured MMO.

We're getting dyes here. That's a start. They need to ramp that kind of kind of stuff up, fast if they don't want this to just be a level up, then gone, game--which it seems to be for a lot of people at the moment.

It's sad, but I've come to realize when it comes to Massive Multiplayer games, that I'd prefer a worse game that's a better MMO then vice-versa.

kieso · June 2014

terrible game but great MMO?

hk11 · June 2014

I can agree. I would rather have less voice overs and more "standard" MMO features.

It seems like step backwards in a lot of areas. I still have hope that the game can be fun. I am waiting, and still paying a sub, to see how they work out the melee classes.

KhajitFurTrader · June 2014

kieso wrote: »

terrible game but great MMO?

Terrible great but MMO game.

daneyulebub17_ESO · June 2014

Terrible MMO in that those features special to MMOs suck, or are non-existent. Great game in that it's graphics, quests, voice acting, etc. are very good and fun to play through--once.

steveb16_ESO46 · June 2014

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

We played LotRO again a while last week--and, wow--the difference in the social aspect was striking. We were communicating, emoting at each other, effectively grouping, comparing gear, trying different cosmetic outfits. If that game hadn't been so borked by F2P and easy-fying everything, we'd probably go back for good. It's become a bad game in many ways, but it's still a fun, full featured MMO.

Very true. I left LOTRO with the Helm's Deep skill trees dumbing down.

KhajitFurTrader · June 2014

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Terrible MMO in that those features special to MMOs suck, or are non-existent. Great game in that it's graphics, quests, voice acting, etc. are very good and fun to play through--once.

Ever since I stopped viewing ESO as an MMO, and started seeing and playing it as Elder Scrolls, I'm having tons of fun and entertainment, and I do not mind the bugs at all. After all, there's plenty of time for them to get fixed.

Playing Elder Scrolls always meant doing stuff in my own sweet time for me, and pacing myself (i.e. not playing it every day, and/or over longer stretches of time. I can play SM's Civilization for 18 hours straight, because of one more turn. Never did that with TES).

Yes, paying to play ESO by the hour would be a better subscription model for me, but it wouldn't be for everyone.

aleister · June 2014

Yeah, they should have just released the 1-50 solo game as an addon for Skyrim.

Haxer · June 2014

Exactly, and if you read posts all over the forum, the people who are enjoying it are the people who are playing this as single player Skyrim with DRM. There are 2 billion games that let you get on a kill things. MMO's are different, because they are supposed to have social/group/guild/community/housing mechanics that allow you to do more than just get on and grind quests by yourself. That's what makes people play them for years. ESO is great if you want to play Skyrim with DRM. It is terrible if you want an MMO. The biggest thing that infuriates me, is that they are now marketing it specifically with what it doesn't have. The new slogan "Live Another Life" is everything completely, utterly missing, and they know it, we know it, which means that kind of seems malicious to me - or irresponsible at best.

Akatosh have mercy on their souls when they release to console. Because PC players generally will put up with a lot of crap for a game, console players do not at all. If they don't finish adding the other 50% of the game (the MMO part) soon, it would be a lot of "wtf is this /ReturnToStore".

Fuzzylumpkins · June 2014

Going to toss in some qualifications here:

Game would have made a stellar single player campaign in 3 parts selecting any alliance and ending with Molag.

However VRs are a waste of time and quest breaks would have needed to have been sorted.

As an mmo, it is most certainly top contender for biggest disappoint the month of release overall and worst game of 2014 that was triple A rated.

Fan boys are not a majority, you guys don't count. A handful of fan boys screamed to save crystal pepsi in the early 90s. Guess who won? Yeah, the majority, you can like it all you want, defending it doesn't make us care any more than we already don't.

NerfEverything · June 2014

This is Zens first MMO and it shows.

They hired an incompetent lead that had already driven one MMO into the ground.
They simply forgot that bots exist and they would have to deal with them.
They left economy breaking exploits and dupes in the game for weeks instead of hotfixing them.
The class balance issues are so bad that endgame content is currently limited to 3 out of the 4 classes.
The forums are a mess, the mods are incompetent,
GMs are virtually non-existent which is a huge problem since there is no client side cheat detection.
Grouping and playing with friends is a disaster to the point where the whole game needs to be played solo
PvP is unplayable due to lag and group crashes, not to mention constant PvP exploits

I could go on and on, but you should get the point by now.

ESO is a great RPG, but as an MMO they literally got every single thing wrong

Paske · June 2014

Had to Google Crystal Pepsi

Fuzzylumpkins · June 2014

NerfEverything wrote: »

This is Zens first MMO and it shows.
They hired an incompetent lead that had already driven one MMO into the ground.

They simply forgot that bots exist and they would have to deal with them.

They left economy breaking exploits and dupes in the game for weeks instead of hotfixing them.

The class balance issues are so bad that endgame content is currently limited to 3 out of the 4 classes.

The forums are a mess, the mods are incompetent,

GMs are virtually non-existent which is a huge problem since there is no client side cheat detection.

Grouping and playing with friends is a disaster to the point where the whole game needs to be played solo

PvP is unplayable due to lag and group crashes, not to mention constant PvP exploits

I could go on and on, but you should get the point by now.

ESO is a great RPG, but as an MMO they literally got every single thing wrong

By far the most articulate and well written post on exactly the state of everything concerning TESO. It should be the cover page on the manual for what went wrong with past MMOs for any future studio/development teams.

ThePonzzz · June 2014

So many aspiring game developers on these forums, makes me tingly!

daneyulebub17_ESO · June 2014

ThePonzzz wrote: »

So many aspiring game developers on these forums, makes me tingly!

Your tingle threshold is quite low then.

Mablung · June 2014

Playing the game really comes down to having to change your idea of what playing an MMO is. This game is not an MMO but does have some MMO-like features that do not work properly.

The story and character progression from levels 1 through 50 remind me of the story and character progression of Star Wars the Old Republic. Great stories for single player play. Both games require little to no social interaction to achieve max level for your character.

ThePonzzz · June 2014

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

ThePonzzz wrote: »

So many aspiring game developers on these forums, makes me tingly!

Your tingle threshold is quite low then.

No, but it would be nice to open up the forums and not see a dozen new threads on players telling developers what they do wrong.

Haxer · June 2014

ThePonzzz wrote: »

So many aspiring game developers on these forums, makes me tingly!

*So many people who want gameplay and features that match the price tag. You can't give experienced players less content than a F2P game, and then charge premium. We're not idiots. The single player with DRM crowd will stay for a little while, the multiplayer MMO crowd will be gone before the console disaster.

Please add guild hall/housing/social/group/guild features like...now. Not two years from now, unless you've got enough cash to float for 2 years without going f2p or under. In which case, enjoy that, take all the time you want.

Mablung · June 2014

ThePonzzz wrote: »

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

ThePonzzz wrote: »

So many aspiring game developers on these forums, makes me tingly!

Your tingle threshold is quite low then.

No, but it would be nice to open up the forums and not see a dozen new threads on players telling developers what they do wrong.

It would also be nice to see people not complaining about what other people are complaining about.

KhajitFurTrader · June 2014

ThePonzzz wrote: »

No, but it would be nice to open up the forums and not see a dozen new threads on players telling developers what they do wrong.

Wait, what?! I always thought that's what forums are for...

yodased · June 2014

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Simply because they don't seem to have any understanding of the bare minimum requirements of an MMO.

Bare minimum requirements of MMO:

Be massive
Be multiplayer
Be online.

Step 3. profit.

Everyone needs to get off the "this isn't what I expect and the MMOI CREATED has all these things so come play the game that I made cause its so much better than ESO, its so bad waaaah" train.

oh wait, right you didn't make a MMO that I can go play and trash on a forum, crap. Hit me up when thats done so I can come play!

Mablung · June 2014

yodased wrote: »

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Simply because they don't seem to have any understanding of the bare minimum requirements of an MMO.

Bare minimum requirements of MMO:

Be massive
Be multiplayer
Be online.

Step 3. profit.

Everyone needs to get off the "this isn't what I expect and the MMOI CREATED has all these things so come play the game that I made cause its so much better than ESO, its so bad waaaah" train.

oh wait, right you didn't make a MMO that I can go play and trash on a forum, crap. Hit me up when thats done so I can come play!

You seem angry. People have every right to complain and be angry about the purchase they made just as you do to be angry about those people who are angry.

yodased · June 2014

angry? No not angry, frustrated I think would be correct.

Yes, 100% people have the right to complain about the purchase, but if you buy a AM radio and want FM channels, you shouldn't be able to rabble rouse about it.

Azzuria · June 2014

Agree with most of it, except the for the whole 'impossible to play with friends' issue. I have a pair of toons that I play exclusively with my best friend and, aside form a minor winking-out while entering or exiting a phase, we've had exactly ZERO issues.

daneyulebub17_ESO · June 2014

yodased wrote: »

angry? No not angry, frustrated I think would be correct.

Yes, 100% people have the right to complain about the purchase, but if you buy a AM radio and want FM channels, you shouldn't be able to rabble rouse about it.

How about if you buy an AM radio, and it plays static half the time?

ThePonzzz · June 2014

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

ThePonzzz wrote: »

No, but it would be nice to open up the forums and not see a dozen new threads on players telling developers what they do wrong.

Wait, what?! I always thought that's what forums are for...

I hope the italics are for sarcasm. Because there is definitely a difference between constructive feedback/suggestions and just constantly complaining.

OP does what most the threads around here do and compare this game to another game they clearly enjoy a little better. Telling game developers they don't have an understanding on how to build an MMO isn't exactly helping much.

Is the game polished? Absolutely not. It's still very rough around the edges. But instead of "poking hot irons through your eyes" take a moment and talk in a language that might make a game developer take the feedback as a positive thing.

Mablung · June 2014

yodased wrote: »

angry? No not angry, frustrated I think would be correct.

Yes, 100% people have the right to complain about the purchase, but if you buy a AM radio and want FM channels, you shouldn't be able to rabble rouse about it.

That is comparing apples and oranges. Absolutely people have a right to complain and list issues they perceive or know are in the product they purchased. Especially with the history that comes with this specific IP, It is not irrational at all to have expectations of housing, guilds (dark brotherhood and Thieves) and basic functionality to be included in the game.

A better analogy would be people bought a Bose system and can only get basic stereo sound out of the speakers.

Arsenic_Touch · June 2014

Did the sky fall yet? /Peaks out from under his helmet

PharmaChief · June 2014

hk11 wrote: »

I can agree. I would rather have less voice overs and more "standard" MMO features.

It seems like step backwards in a lot of areas. I still have hope that the game can be fun. I am waiting, and still paying a sub, to see how they work out the melee classes.

Its funny that voice overs make the addition of new quests and periodical events harder as they require more work. Its surprising that for two months now there have been no special events and no addition of new quests (besides Craglorn). The world is very static which may be acceptable for single player games but very bad for MMO's

Warhealer · June 2014

Great MMO's stem from community or at least the illusion of communities, if we (MMO players) wanted to play solo we would buy an offline game.

Ultima Online, had a stellar community complete with player and guild ran cities outside of the static cities that had vendor driven static economy, meaning you could play solo and visit the cities or play with a community and never have to enter a static city.
SWG: same thing, great community, player ran cities ect.
EQ1-was a good start for SOE, guilds were meaningful
EQ2- is a great MMO even as F2P, housing, guilds, public WORLD broker.
Pirate of the Burning Sea is a good community MMO, the biggest mistake was selling their title to SOE who ran it into the ground. It is now back in the hands of the original creators and making great strides to return to its former glory. Key features include Guild store houses, public player driven economy with the option to close loop your economy within your guild.

Elder Scrolls Online: Lacks a Public player driven economy right now, NO reason to freak out people, old EQ1 players remember East Common Lands Tunnels? Players need to make a buy/sell hot spot zone until Zeni implements their Public Broker system(I hope they are working on one)
Guild Banks and Markets NEED a search feature, I shouldn't have to download a 3rd party add-on for that.
Guilds need to represent a more meaningful part of the game, be it a tag above you head, to special buffs to its members as the guild earns achievements be it XP bonus, stats or resists.
The actual game economy is terrible, the player side evaluation of items is what is saving it. You can sell a VR12 item to a vendor for 170gold or a player who wants it for 8,000gold...With the amount of money sinks(respect,horses,upgrades) you would think a VR 12 item would be worth at least 800-1,200 gold. an endgame player should not have to grind for 2 weeks to afford a common horse, if you want to implement special armored horses and pvp mounts that's fine, its a time sink but common horses 42k divided by lets say the average trash item of 120gold=350 items and that's on the high end of vendor trash. or if you want lets do the standard drop rate of 5gold per mob killed=84,000 mobs. Not counting repair bills and loot and potion expenses/food ect.

The economy is not broke it is just severely undervalued.

Don't even get me started on group finder,co-op playing....
I really enjoy the game, I still play it but it is very far from being an MMO.

daneyulebub17_ESO · June 2014

OP does what most the threads around here do and compare this game to another game they clearly enjoy a little better. Telling game developers they don't have an understanding on how to build an MMO isn't exactly helping much.

Nah--most of threads around here are full of posts complaining about most of the threads around here.