Staff's are the new Bow - BUFF THE BOW

kijima · June 2014

Since everyone is running around with a staff and light Armour, how about a buff for the Bow!

Using a bow (which I love btw) was, in the beta's claimed as being OP. On the old forum there was post after post with people saying they are OP, which was funny as sword and board with bash was hillarious, add in a vamp tree and it's even funnier!

Roll forward 2 months or so and of course now that many are VR, with literally thousands that have grinded all the way up to VR12, bow's are almost non-existent, and certainly not O like they were claimed to be. Well, maybe not non existent as that's not true, but you certainly don't see them being used as much as staff combined with Light Armour is now. Early on, plenty of people were rocking Heavy or Medium, and now it's just frilly skirts and panzy hats.

Medium Armour should get more than it does, pretty much in every kill line and Heavy almost seems pointless with the current caps in place. Sure, there are some people that are using Heavy effectively with different and specific builds, but it's becoming more rare. I'm talking both PvP AND PvE btw.

Hopefully the introduction of Thieves and Brotherhood guilds will fix Medium Armour and Bow, although that wont fix Heavy which is a little sad. (Personally, I think if you wait to long for those guilds you have planned, you'll lose out on a lot of customers, bring it and bring it now!)

Happy for objective criticism and well thought out discussion, but save your re-roll anything but an NB and bow usage to yourself. Remember, ZOS said you can play anyway you want, which I am. (they didn't say, play anything you want, but some classes are rubbish)

I'm happy with my choices, gimped or otherwise I like my character and don't want to change but FFS do something more with the bow.

Khami · June 2014

I got told today by a guildmate that even if they fix the stam builds, the bow still be only good in PvP.

Which is bunk, it should be the best single target weapon, but it's not.

I changed from bow to the two staves and I'm not liking it, but I'm doing more DPS. This is something that needs to be fixed and asap.

Right now, majority of the VR players are using two staves and light armor no matter which class. It's ridiculous doing a trial with everyone using a staff and in light amor.

Ser Lobo · June 2014

While I feel the bow is definitely inferior to staff and class abilities, I still feel it's superior to melee, which I feel is not only hurt by stamina use, but also awkward targeting mechanisms (auto-target needs to be tighter for melee characters).

The imbalance being in the mechanisms for magicka and stamina. Once this imbalance is 'cured', so to speak, I think we'll see a lot more bow and melee use.

Light armor skills, specifically, have some pretty major bonuses and generations which simply aren't reflected in the stamina line. Just from an outsiders perspective, it's not the damage of any individual abilities that need changed, but the rate of generation for magicka, so that it's more in-line with the use of stamina (which suffers from also being the pool of which roll, block, sprint and stealth are drawn from).

This, of course, will cause MANY to hate ESO. But it's where they are headed, one way or another. They could buff stamina generation and critical boosts, but this will cause them to have to buff mobs and players to compensate for the challenge redux.

tordr86b16_ESO · June 2014

The skills in the bow tree simply doesn't cut it. Destruction skills are far more superior and does way more damage.

aco5712 · June 2014

Personally i dont think bows are as bad as people are making them out to be. Snipe from a stealth combined with a couple poison arrows + your ranged class skill and vr12s are dying. I kill many 12s with my bow before they can even react. (vr1 NB here)

kijima · June 2014

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

The skills in the bow tree simply doesn't cut it. Destruction skills are far more superior and does way more damage.

Agreed, it's just not as strong as it should be.

Having to wait 3 seconds for snipe, which is similar to some of the big casting times for a few of the larger spells, yet it deals far less damage. Bow 'should' be the best DPS weapon, or if not the best, right up there with them. But it's not.

Historically in other Elder Scrolls games it's always been the OP weapon, and changing the skill tree would fix that for sure.

C'mon ZOS make the bow every bit as lethal as a man wearing a dress carrying his boomstick!

Vis · June 2014

Because of animation canceling, a good player with a bow hits harder and faster than with a staff. Hence so many (of all classes) running around with bows in pvp at the moment.

Edit: maybe not harder, but definitely faster as to have a higher dps yield.

jelliedsoup · June 2014

aco5712 wrote: »

Personally i dont think bows are as bad as people are making them out to be. Snipe from a stealth combined with a couple poison arrows + your ranged class skill and vr12s are dying. I kill many 12s with my bow before they can even react. (vr1 NB here)

I remember people were crying about bows during beta for being op. Now bow users are crying about bows.

Khivas_Carrick · June 2014

How I see weapons should be acting in game play:

Destruction Staffs - Best AoE DPS, second best Ranged, worst CC Weapon. The Ranged Version of dual wielding or simply put a caster's Bow. Used when there's an army at he gates that needs to just go away.

Dual Wielding - Best Single Target DPS, Best Melee Option, Zero (0) CC options. The thing you pick when a sum' *** seriously needs to just die and nothing else is going to touch you because your comrades have your back.

Two Handed Weapon - Second Best Single Target DPS, Second Best Melee Option, Second Best AoE DPS, Very few CC options, Many Debuffs a raid can benefit from. The Multi-Role weapon that can do one thing extremely well if focused on it but usually is best left as the everyman's everykiller.

Bows - Best Ranged DPS, Third Best AoE, Best CC options without a doubt in my mind. Can be used to kill a *** from afar or take down oliphants. More importantly, it's used to both back up the other weapons and take things down in it's own right.

Restoration Staffs - Heals. Can either be super awesome amazing heals or back up heals for Templar, either way it's meant to fit both healing classes and nothing more, just healing.

Single Weapon and Shield - Tanks best friend, not staffs. Has a knock back, a taunt, several survival abilities, etc. Basically make this as tank or support friendly as humanly possible, i.e it does crap DPS on it's own but can be stupid necessary if a smart player uses it to support EVERYBODY in a raid.

How I see Weapons actually acting in game play:

Bows - lol is that a bb gun?

Two Handed - Nice piece of cardboard Nerd

Dual Wielding - LOLTWIRLINGLIKEACHEERLEADER

Restoration Staffs - Screw Templars, just give me my super stick of life.

Sword and Shield - Oh look, he has a wooden shield. Throw fire and oil on him and let us laugh. Bwahaha!

Destruction Staff - LOLOLOLOLHAXXORZ LASRBEAMZ UR DED ***!

tordr86b16_ESO · June 2014

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Destruction Staffs - Best AoE DPS, second best Ranged, worst CC Weapon. The Ranged Version of dual wielding or simply put a caster's Bow. Used when there's an army at he gates that needs to just go away.

Ummmmmmm, look up Crushing Shock and Destructive Reach.

Ser Lobo · June 2014

Archer is about avoiding damage, keeping the enemy away, and

Volley needs to have a much wider radius and a short disorient, as well as a cost decrease, since it's primarily and opener or support ability rather than a killing move.

Snipe needs a good armor break, armor penetration boost, and a 5% chance to instantly kill a humanoid target (ala Silver Bolts), making it an opener ability worth putting on the bar, focused on taking one target out early.

I currently rely heavily on Venom Arrow, Draining Shot and Bombard, and feel that they work fine except for the overall cost to stamina. A slight damage boost to venom arrow *would* be nice though.

jelliedsoup · June 2014

aco5712 wrote: »

Personally i dont think bows are as bad as people are making them out to be. Snipe from a stealth combined with a couple poison arrows + your ranged class skill and vr12s are dying. I kill many 12s with my bow before they can even react. (vr1 NB here)

Having added piercing mark to the mix, being vr3 I can say I have never killed a vr12 this way.

jelliedsoup · June 2014

aco5712 wrote: »

Personally i dont think bows are as bad as people are making them out to be. Snipe from a stealth combined with a couple poison arrows + your ranged class skill and vr12s are dying. I kill many 12s with my bow before they can even react. (vr1 NB here)

DBL post..

kijima · June 2014

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

How I see weapons should be acting in game play:

Destruction Staffs - Best AoE DPS, second best Ranged, worst CC Weapon. The Ranged Version of dual wielding or simply put a caster's Bow. Used when there's an army at he gates that needs to just go away.

Dual Wielding - Best Single Target DPS, Best Melee Option, Zero (0) CC options. The thing you pick when a sum' *** seriously needs to just die and nothing else is going to touch you because your comrades have your back.

Two Handed Weapon - Second Best Single Target DPS, Second Best Melee Option, Second Best AoE DPS, Very few CC options, Many Debuffs a raid can benefit from. The Multi-Role weapon that can do one thing extremely well if focused on it but usually is best left as the everyman's everykiller.

Bows - Best Ranged DPS, Third Best AoE, Best CC options without a doubt in my mind. Can be used to kill a *** from afar or take down oliphants. More importantly, it's used to both back up the other weapons and take things down in it's own right.

Restoration Staffs - Heals. Can either be super awesome amazing heals or back up heals for Templar, either way it's meant to fit both healing classes and nothing more, just healing.

Single Weapon and Shield - Tanks best friend, not staffs. Has a knock back, a taunt, several survival abilities, etc. Basically make this as tank or support friendly as humanly possible, i.e it does crap DPS on it's own but can be stupid necessary if a smart player uses it to support EVERYBODY in a raid.

How I see Weapons actually acting in game play:

Bows - lol is that a bb gun?

Two Handed - Nice piece of cardboard Nerd

Dual Wielding - LOLTWIRLINGLIKEACHEERLEADER

Restoration Staffs - Screw Templars, just give me my super stick of life.

Sword and Shield - Oh look, he has a wooden shield. Throw fire and oil on him and let us laugh. Bwahaha!

Destruction Staff - LOLOLOLOLHAXXORZ LASRBEAMZ UR DED ***!

Funny because it's true.

runagate · June 2014

There's a little boost in the PTS patch notes for bow.

SilverWF · June 2014

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

How I see weapons should be acting in game play:

Destruction Staffs - Best AoE DPS, second best Ranged, worst CC Weapon. The Ranged Version of dual wielding or simply put a caster's Bow. Used when there's an army at he gates that needs to just go away.

Dual Wielding - Best Single Target DPS, Best Melee Option, Zero (0) CC options. The thing you pick when a sum' *** seriously needs to just die and nothing else is going to touch you because your comrades have your back.

Two Handed Weapon - Second Best Single Target DPS, Second Best Melee Option, Second Best AoE DPS, Very few CC options, Many Debuffs a raid can benefit from. The Multi-Role weapon that can do one thing extremely well if focused on it but usually is best left as the everyman's everykiller.

Bows - Best Ranged DPS, Third Best AoE, Best CC options without a doubt in my mind. Can be used to kill a *** from afar or take down oliphants. More importantly, it's used to both back up the other weapons and take things down in it's own right.

Restoration Staffs - Heals. Can either be super awesome amazing heals or back up heals for Templar, either way it's meant to fit both healing classes and nothing more, just healing.

Single Weapon and Shield - Tanks best friend, not staffs. Has a knock back, a taunt, several survival abilities, etc. Basically make this as tank or support friendly as humanly possible, i.e it does crap DPS on it's own but can be stupid necessary if a smart player uses it to support EVERYBODY in a raid.

Just LOL
Where is option for single target mages?
Also: Duals - best melee and zero CC, but Bow - best ranged and best CC?! Lolwut?
Seems like another "gimme teh WIN-button" thread.

aco5712 · June 2014

jelliedsoup wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

Personally i dont think bows are as bad as people are making them out to be. Snipe from a stealth combined with a couple poison arrows + your ranged class skill and vr12s are dying. I kill many 12s with my bow before they can even react. (vr1 NB here)

Having added piercing mark to the mix, being vr3 I can say I have never killed a vr12 this way.

Really? I pierce mark, then open with snipe (roughly 900-1.2k depending on the armour type and class), animation canceling light attacks with poison arrow (x3/4) (easy 3-4 crits in that mix) and then a couple of strife +light attack and thats the end of that chapter.

Ser Lobo · June 2014

aco5712 wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

Personally i dont think bows are as bad as people are making them out to be. Snipe from a stealth combined with a couple poison arrows + your ranged class skill and vr12s are dying. I kill many 12s with my bow before they can even react. (vr1 NB here)

Having added piercing mark to the mix, being vr3 I can say I have never killed a vr12 this way.

Really? I pierce mark, then open with snipe (roughly 900-1.2k depending on the armour type and class), animation canceling light attacks with poison arrow (x3/4) (easy 3-4 crits in that mix) and then a couple of strife +light attack and thats the end of that chapter.

Hope they fix animation cancelling, myself. Hate when games keep that in trying to claim that bad code work is 'player skill'.

Ser Lobo · June 2014

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

How I see weapons should be acting in game play:

My personal view of weapon balance, in general:

- Melee should always do more damage than ranged (takes longer to get to the target and harder to maintain DPS on target)
- Single target should always greatly exceed aoe, so that both kill roughly the same amount of mobs at the same speed (aoe handling trash mobs faster, single target handling elites/bosses faster)
- Physical vs Magic damage should depend on the mob's defenses, with some weapons doing better against certain mobs than others (i.e. mobs with high magick resistance, or who are weak to magick, etc).

Tabbycat · June 2014

Bows are great if you are sneaking in a kill shot for one target. The problem is when you have multiple targets in a group. After that first shot, the bow becomes lackluster.

Arsenic_Touch · June 2014

runagate wrote: »

There's a little boost in the PTS patch notes for bow.

You got the little part right. From what people have been saying after testing the changes, it really doesn't make much of a difference due to the inherent weakness of stamina skills.

Jimm_ay · June 2014

I have seen nightblades with bows do some sick damage. I agree though the bow needs a buff. Say Poison arrow - the poison should be a bigger debuf. you're poisoned...you should be dying..

Witar · June 2014

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

- Single target should always greatly exceed aoe, so that both kill roughly the same amount of mobs at the same speed (aoe handling trash mobs faster, single target handling elites/bosses faster)

I hope you understand that you contradict yourself in this one

Ser Lobo · June 2014

Witar wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

- Single target should always greatly exceed aoe, so that both kill roughly the same amount of mobs at the same speed (aoe handling trash mobs faster, single target handling elites/bosses faster)

I hope you understand that you contradict yourself in this one

Not by my thought process: if two players attack a boss and two mobs, one using single target, and one AOE, then the two *should* finish at about the same time.

However, if they were to just attack the boss, the single target would finish far ahead of the AOE.

If they were to just attack the mobs, the AOE guy would finish faster (being able to do less damage to both targets at the same time).

In the end, it's a reduction of AOE damage (which doesn't have to be aimed and should also cost more). On a pure damage to damage scale, if they are even remotely even (like many of the abilities currently in ESO), AOE will always succeed, as they don't have aiming issues and can hit multiple targets at the same time.

runagate · June 2014

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

runagate wrote: »

There's a little boost in the PTS patch notes for bow.

You got the little part right. From what people have been saying after testing the changes, it really doesn't make much of a difference due to the inherent weakness of stamina skills.

I know - I definitely used the word "little" advisedly. I play a two-handed weapon-wielding Nightblade, so I know all about the stamina ability problem. I don't have a single one slotted on either loadout anymore.

Arsenic_Touch · June 2014

runagate wrote: »

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

runagate wrote: »

There's a little boost in the PTS patch notes for bow.

You got the little part right. From what people have been saying after testing the changes, it really doesn't make much of a difference due to the inherent weakness of stamina skills.

I know - I definitely used the word "little" advisedly. I play a two-handed weapon-wielding Nightblade, so I know all about the stamina ability problem. I don't have a single one slotted on either loadout anymore.

Plus it appears that haste and attack speed still doesn't affect heavy attacks.

yodased · June 2014

Wait, there are aiming issues in this game? Who is having problems with aiming skills?

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO · June 2014

By principe early game staff sucks big time. The reason why is because all staff move are somewhat VERY BAD save for pulsar wich is obtained at 42 or something like that (if you wont run pulsar dont bother running destruction staff at all you would be better off running resto staff because at least you would gain a damage increase based on your health percentage). For this very reason no one in the beta had the chance to actualy test the staff end game and bow looked up as the ideal weapon due to its long range single target damage.

If they nerfed pulsar destruction staff would become the worst weapon in the game its ironic how a weapon balance hangs over a single move effectiveness.

Restoration staff isnt used for damage save by spec wich runs on self healing (siphon nightblades)

Bow and melee weapon just need a hard hiter of their own that can make the defrence or an actual serious damage increase on critical strike/stamina cost reduction/damage and then they will be competitive.

arrowzagub17_ESO · June 2014

aco5712 wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

Personally i dont think bows are as bad as people are making them out to be. Snipe from a stealth combined with a couple poison arrows + your ranged class skill and vr12s are dying. I kill many 12s with my bow before they can even react. (vr1 NB here)

Having added piercing mark to the mix, being vr3 I can say I have never killed a vr12 this way.

Really? I pierce mark, then open with snipe (roughly 900-1.2k depending on the armour type and class), animation canceling light attacks with poison arrow (x3/4) (easy 3-4 crits in that mix) and then a couple of strife +light attack and thats the end of that chapter.

I think animation cancelling is fine but the attack should be cancelled also. It should never fire off period.

Baphomet · June 2014

I have not tested bows since on the PTS but back then it was the weapon of choice for sustained DPS simply because its light/heavy attacks dealt way more damage than it counterparts.

If I would equip a bow with 129 base damage, my light attacks would actually deal ~179 damage per hit and if I equipped a destruction staff with 149 base damage it would do ~149 damage. And this was with all destruction passives unlocked an only a few bow passives unlocked.

I can check whether this is still the case soon and report back.

phtony06b14_ESO · June 2014

I think if Zen fixed the resource (stam/magicka) problem they the weapons would seem more balanced. They could easily add another resource (let's call it energy) for block/dodge/sprint. That would free up stamina to be used by the stamina weapons, thereby making them more powerful.

Having said that, I see the bow more as a utility weapon than a straight up DPS weapon. I haven't tested anything so I don't know how it measures against the d.staff pure damage wise.