Thoughts on my first MMO I bought on launch

tawok

I'm not going to be one of those guys, that sits here and says that "X MMO was just as bad at launch!". I'm just going to tell you, as a person who has played many MMOs far past their launch, what my experience has been like buying on the ground floor.

My main points: End game, grouping, guilds/player drop-off, and VR.

End game: Where is it? Do most MMOs launch with almost nothing? Craglorn is coming, but I honestly can't see it lasting longer than 3 months, even for the more casual players.

Grouping: I'm a big believer in "if you want to group, be the leader", but it's pretty tough in a game that doesn't really give incentive to group. Due to phasing/instancing issues, it's almost more advantageous to solo.

Guilds/Player drop-off: This is something I'm not experienced in. But, it seems like in all my guilds, we've lost at least 80% prime time activity, to a 95% decrease in activity in one of my guilds. Guilds aside, my friends list has gone from 6-7 people online at prime time, to 0.

VR: It's been beaten to death, but VR sucks. Progression takes a nose dive, and all sense of reward with questing with it. Everyone I know that made it to VR, gave up around VR2, my highest friend made it to VR4 before quitting.

I'm still playing, and trying to enjoy myself, but these issues are glaring. The main point, and question: Is this normal for launch MMOs, or has this one really dropped the ball? It's hard to enjoy myself when it seems like a grand majority of the player base has already moved on, rendering my friends and guild lists empty, and myself feeling like I'm playing (dot)hack.

TetsuMaru

"End game" most nonsecuidor concept ever. My desire to grind the same content repeatedly in order to obtain gear that will be useless upon an expac release is completely gone. Games have endings....so do stories. Release more content that promotes building relationships with other players instead. Just my opinion.....fire away.

tawok

TetsuMaru wrote: »

"End game" most nonsecuidor concept ever. My desire to grind the same content repeatedly in order to obtain gear that will be useless upon an expac release is completely gone. Games have endings....so do stories. Release more content that promotes building relationships with other players instead. Just my opinion.....fire away.

I'm with ya on that. My favorite MMO thus far has been one that offered basically 0 end game (unless you count Jedi end game)... Star Wars Galaxies. The fun I had in that game was playing bounty hunter, relaxing with friends in their houses/guild halls, shootin' the *** while trading, and taking part in Guild vs. Guild.

The best (and unlimited) content comes from players, if you give us the tools. I don't want to grind end game any more than the next socialite, but it's better than absolutely nothin!

mutharex

TetsuMaru wrote: »

"End game" most nonsecuidor concept ever. My desire to grind the same content repeatedly in order to obtain gear that will be useless upon an expac release is completely gone. Games have endings....so do stories. Release more content that promotes building relationships with other players instead. Just my opinion.....fire away.

Totally agree, gear grinds are pointless compared to horizontal growth and REAL content. There are plenty of wowclones that cater to that mentality, let's not try turning this into rubbish too. Not all MMOs have to be carbon copies of wow, this tries to do something different. That you like it or not is completely irrelevant

Loxy37

Yawn. No offense but couldnt you have posted to one of the many other threads?

Vorkk8383

Loxy37 wrote: »

Yawn. No offense but couldnt you have posted to one of the many other threads?

Ya no offense but you meant to offend. The ''yawn'' says it all. Also, why does it matter to you if someone creates a thread that was already created? The forums are an unorganized mess anyways. There's likely better ways to spend your time than being passive-agressive on forums.

tawok

mutharex wrote: »

TetsuMaru wrote: »

"End game" most nonsecuidor concept ever. My desire to grind the same content repeatedly in order to obtain gear that will be useless upon an expac release is completely gone. Games have endings....so do stories. Release more content that promotes building relationships with other players instead. Just my opinion.....fire away.

Totally agree, gear grinds are pointless compared to horizontal growth and REAL content. There are plenty of wowclones that cater to that mentality, let's not try turning this into rubbish too. Not all MMOs have to be carbon copies of wow, this tries to do something different. That you like it or not is completely irrelevant

Irrelevant to you, sure. Just like your opinion is irrelevant to me, except I'm not so rude as to explicitly tell you so.

If 800,000 subscribers say they want faceroll, gear grinds, and only 200k say they don't, whose opinion becomes relevant to ZoS? Craglorn and the trials are the first steps towards giving the hardcore, endgame farmers something to do, and good for them. Anything ZoS does to earn/keep subs is ok with me.

Tannakaobi

mutharex wrote: »

TetsuMaru wrote: »

"End game" most nonsecuidor concept ever. My desire to grind the same content repeatedly in order to obtain gear that will be useless upon an expac release is completely gone. Games have endings....so do stories. Release more content that promotes building relationships with other players instead. Just my opinion.....fire away.

Totally agree, gear grinds are pointless compared to horizontal growth and REAL content. There are plenty of wowclones that cater to that mentality, let's not try turning this into rubbish too. Not all MMOs have to be carbon copies of wow, this tries to do something different. That you like it or not is completely irrelevant

So..., just so we are clear, as I'm a little confused. What does this game try to do different? I hope you are not talking about the VR content. It's just a sorry excuse for content. Honestly I would rather no end game content than that.

It's not new, it's not different. It's the same content with more HP. It's almost as if they made half a game and then just looped it with boosted stats. In fact the loot you get from VR area's suggest that's exactly what they did, only they forgot to change everything.

The balancing of the game is just all wrong in VR zones, boss fights that are weaker than the surrounding mods. Further evidence of the lame excuse they have for end game content. So don't give it that it's 'different' or 'new'!

TetsuMaru

This began as a forum for intelligent discussion and quickly turned into a "you dont agree with me...so your wrong *** wave" Very sad indeed.

tawok

Guys, I didn't mean to make this topic to start a flame war over whether or not this should clone wow. I'm simply opening discussion on whether or not other MMOs launch this poorly, and I'd really like some concrete examples.

Philosophical debates about whether or not end game is "fun" (subjectivism at its finest), it's clear that people against end game are in the minority. Millions of MMO players want something to do once they finish off the theme park. ZoS wants us to have something to do, lest we move on from their game. As much as I like it, player generated content based MMOs are a thing of the past. If MMO A requires my effort (like making large events) to enjoy it at end game, and MMO B doesn't (by giving us gear face-rolls/queue'd PVP), I'm gonna take the lazier option with the majority of the lazy gamers out there.

TetsuMaru

Trust us when we say this has been a smooth launch compared to some. No mmo in existence launches with everything everyone wants.

Lovely

As a definition, endgame is what you do after you finish leveling up to max level.

At the moment that endgame is what: pvp, dungeons (not sure), questing other factions.

Not exactly sure what this game is trying to do differently. There's a sort of raid coming as well.

TetsuMaru

I understand some enjoy this endless grind and its temporary feeling of accomplishment and reward. Us older folk have done so for 10 plus years and are anxious for....well...exactly what this is....something different. The very concept of endgame is flawed imo in the typical grind design.

mutharex

1) story driven game with phasing, so you aren't saving a town just to see it under attack by the same mobs.
2) horizontal growth, skill based, instead of gear treadmill
3) possibility of levelling 'endgame' with either RAIDS (coming in Craiglorn), PVP or dungeons AND questing
4) AvA with 3 factions done right

The fact that you don't like this and this isn't a typical MMO doesn't mean there is a problem with the game (aside bugs), it's just that you aren't the intended target.
They made this game for TES fans, learn to deal with it

mutharex

TetsuMaru wrote: »

Trust us when we say this has been a smooth launch compared to some. No mmo in existence launches with everything everyone wants.

Oh cmon, the only reason to open General was to free the other sections of the forum from this kind of rubbish. I think it worked well

ooops I meant to quote this:
"This began as a forum for intelligent discussion and quickly turned into a "you dont agree with me...so your wrong *** wave" Very sad indeed."

tawok

mutharex wrote: »

it's just that you aren't the intended target.
They made this game for TES fans, learn to deal with it

That excuse is old, overused, naive, and won't keep the servers running. The "intended target" is any gamer willing to spend their money and time on this game.

If you think the ZoS board meetings consist of "Well as long as we're pleasing Elder Scrolls diehards, *** everyone else!" and isn't more like "What can we do to get more money?!", you're delusional.

TetsuMaru

Eso's and for that matter no game has a target market of everyone. Its not an excuse it is litterally an assessment of the organizations strategic planning.

Eris

I have no problem grouping. My roommate and I group all the time. We have a set of characters that travel together, coordinate our responses to NPCs and have had no problems. This game just requires you to coordinate a little more in grouping that outside. We have other friends, if they join we'll do the same with them and it will also work out fine.

When we aren't playing together we have characters to solo, we can craft, we can catch up the solo only missions, etc.

mutharex

Eris wrote: »

I have no problem grouping. My roommate and I group all the time. We have a set of characters that travel together, coordinate our responses to NPCs and have had no problems. This game just requires you to coordinate a little more in grouping that outside. We have other friends, if they join we'll do the same with them and it will also work out fine.

When we aren't playing together we have characters to solo, we can craft, we can catch up the solo only missions, etc.

That is because outside of choosing two different outcomes and then ending up in different phases, the only ways of getting 'separated' have to do more with what's between the keyboard and the chair, not in game...

Audigy

End game: Where is it? Do most MMOs launch with almost nothing? Craglorn is coming, but I honestly can't see it lasting longer than 3 months, even for the more casual players.

End-game is a really flawed MMO concept. MMO´s don't have an end, that's the whole idea of that franchise. If you play an MMO then not to see the end, but to enter a journey that takes you to different parts in that gaming world.

Yes ESO should definitely improve at some points in that journey, especially in the social aspect in regards of housing - but that whole "End-Game" idea would do more harm than good at ESO.

Elder Scrolls is not about running the same raid for months, its about exploring and discovering new things.

Grouping: I'm a big believer in "if you want to group, be the leader", but it's pretty tough in a game that doesn't really give incentive to group. Due to phasing/instancing issues, it's almost more advantageous to solo.

The main idea behind grouping at ESO is the open world social system. You do not need to spam a channel, or an invite button here. No! All the grouping can and does happen on the fly.
Players find each other by just exploring the game, this is a totally different approach to WoW or other "invite only" MMO´s.

This also improves group play as the quest objectives can be fulfilled by everyone and not only those with the first tag on a mob.

Games like WoW with the closed group system are pretty much no longer desired. Also WS which is a huge WoW clone, has the open group system in place.

Guilds/Player drop-off: This is something I'm not experienced in. But, it seems like in all my guilds, we've lost at least 80% prime time activity, to a 95% decrease in activity in one of my guilds. Guilds aside, my friends list has gone from 6-7 people online at prime time, to 0.

That's totally normal for an MMO. Many players only play for a month, rush to the end of the story and then move to the next. The important subs are those in the next few months, as those people are the core that will stay. People that unsub right after release are not important for MMO´s, they are the typical hoppers that consume MMO`s and not play them.

VR: It's been beaten to death, but VR sucks. Progression takes a nose dive, and all sense of reward with questing with it. Everyone I know that made it to VR, gave up around VR2, my highest friend made it to VR4 before quitting.

What you say doesn't make any sense to be honest. Just because something takes a while, its bad? So tell me, what do you think about WS or Ultima or DAOC then?

All games offer a similar system past max level (UO doesn't even have levels), all take months to climb up the ranks and unlock abilities, yet at least Ultima and DAOC are considered the crème de la crème in MMO history.

You reached max level in a decent time at ESO, everything after is about Char progression and as longer a Char progression takes, as better it is for the longevity in an MMO.

I'm still playing, and trying to enjoy myself, but these issues are glaring. The main point, and question: Is this normal for launch MMOs, or has this one really dropped the ball?

ESO is one of the smoothest and best MMO releases since many years. It has a full Char progression system past max level, full story and pvp content. There are many MMO´s that ship without pvp, that ship without full quest content or graphics.

The only thing that you can argue about is the lack of housing and the multi core threading. Besides that, ESO is further than many MMO´s in the past.

Your problem however is, that you don't like the concept of the game. But this is nothing ZO can fix, its your attitude towards the franchise that might need some readjustments if you want to get happy with MMO´s in the future.

What WoW does and did, is in the process of dieing. Players have burned out from the rush to max level and the raid or die philosophy. You might still like that type of MMO, that's fine. But the future will be somewhere else, maybe not this year and not the next, but Sandbox MMO´s, open End MMO´s, games that offer Char progression based on game progression and not items alone are more and more under development.
While I don't think that MMO´s with "Endgame" die out, their numbers and quality will most likely decline over the next decade.
Games that go back to the roots of MMO´s by adding time related improvements - this is the future in my opinion.

TetsuMaru

@Audigy - *loud applause

tawok

Audigy wrote: »

Your problem however is, that you don't like the concept of the game.

Where did I say that?

The "ESO is just not for you" mentality/excuse is awful. Are people even reading the OP? I said *I* like the game. There are a lot of posts/comments abroad that say this is the worst MMO launch in history, and I was asking for actual examples as to why any other MMO launch was better, and if ESOs launch is as terrible as every outlet makes it out to be.

TetsuMaru

Use google to search for worst mmo launches.

TetsuMaru

I look at it this way and in my head so are the devs. Its a given that it is impossible for them to please everyone. They can augment their current game design to retain more of the "other mmo" fans, who likely will whimsically move on to "the next big thing" in a few months anyway at the cost of ESO series fans who are mostly likely going to be long term customers. Or they can maintain their current design and cater to those who will stay because it is different...imo flat out better combat wise...which may not provide the same initial giant revenues that a mass apeal mmo could but would provide a steady reliable stream over time. The opportunity cost, imo is apparent and their subsequent decision making regarding this should be also.

ZOS_JonasQ

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aleister

The ESO launch will become a cautionary tale to future MMO publishers.

liquid_wolf

aleister wrote: »

The ESO launch will become a cautionary tale to future MMO publishers.

Thought that was Vanguard?
SWtOR?
Warhammer Online?
Age of Conan?
Final Fantasy XIV 1.0?
Aion?
World of Warcraft? <- Most free time given to accounts in MMORPG history within first 6 months.

Simple google searches:
http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/31/the-perfect-ten-worst-mmo-launches-of-all-time/
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/4862/page/1
http://www.craveonline.com/gaming/articles/562729-top-5-worst-mmo-launches-in-history-ffxiv-wow#/slide/1
http://lorehound.com/news/mmorpgs-and-the-worst-pc-game-launches-as-told-by-1up/

Yep... Simple google searches.

mutharex

liquid_wolf wrote: »

aleister wrote: »

The ESO launch will become a cautionary tale to future MMO publishers.

Thought that was Vanguard?
SWtOR?
Warhammer Online?
Age of Conan?
Final Fantasy XIV 1.0?
Aion?
World of Warcraft? <- Most free time given to accounts in MMORPG history within first 6 months.

Simple google searches:
http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/31/the-perfect-ten-worst-mmo-launches-of-all-time/
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/4862/page/1
http://www.craveonline.com/gaming/articles/562729-top-5-worst-mmo-launches-in-history-ffxiv-wow#/slide/1
http://lorehound.com/news/mmorpgs-and-the-worst-pc-game-launches-as-told-by-1up/

Yep... Simple google searches.

Thought it was AO

TetsuMaru

See how easy it was to find this information. Lol. Thanks guys. Far from the worst launch ever and in my experience its honestly one of the best and most stable. Call me a fan boy if you want lol. I enjoy this game immensely.

Talmet

tawok wrote: »

End game: Where is it? Do most MMOs launch with almost nothing? Craglorn is coming, but I honestly can't see it lasting longer than 3 months, even for the more casual players.

Yes, and no....Most MMOs with endgame content, launch with the content...but it is so buggy, that it is impossible to actually complete for months and/or easily exploited...so it isn't really there. i.e. WoW vanilla launched with onyxia & MC, but onyxia was so bugged the first clear wasn't till like january or february (it launched end of November), and MC wasn't cleared till April, and was so buggy most guilds just gave up trying...not to mention that in the early days there was a bug that let you cause the last boss of MC to respawn anytime you wanted. So instead of waiting the 7 days for the whole instance to reset, you could just kill the last boss over and over...which resulted in 1) really funny moments, like priests who had epic melee DPS daggers dueling each other outside of org, and 2) every guild that couldn't complete MC getting extremely pissed that the other guilds were exploiting to get everyone geared for the next tier of content. Also, the entrance to MC required jumping through a portal & many times you would get a message "instance servers are full" message, and then just die.

Or SWTOR launched with the Eternity Vault, but there were really awesome "bugs" like bosses were cc able "look, there's two bosses, we'll just have one person put their 60 second duration cc on one till the first one is down", or "Yey! the puzzle for this boss is bugged and can't be interacted with anymore, everyone out and we'll reset & try again!" or my personal favorite "ooh, look! these adds that you have to kill in like 5 seconds, have 200k health in nightmare mode after the patch instead of the 2k they had before, they have more health than the boss now, that you have like 5 minutes to kill!"

The reason is simple....beta tests of endgame content, are usually done in-house. Because, otherwise the beta testers would have an advantage over non-beta testers, as they'd have already figured out the bosses. That means, end game content doesn't get tested as thouroghly as the rest of the game....ESO decided to just not even include endgame content at launch. Yeah, people complain about it not being there....but if it was, it'd be buggy as hell & people would complain about that.

tawok wrote: »

VR: It's been beaten to death, but VR sucks. Progression takes a nose dive, and all sense of reward with questing with it. Everyone I know that made it to VR, gave up around VR2, my highest friend made it to VR4 before quitting.

They are changing the way VR works come 1.1, increasing the xp gained in pvp so it's actually possible to rank up there & I think also increasing the rate that mob/quest/achiev rank you up as well.

tawok wrote: »

Is this normal for launch MMOs, or has this one really dropped the ball? It's hard to enjoy myself when it seems like a grand majority of the player base has already moved on, rendering my friends and guild lists empty, and myself feeling like I'm playing (dot)hack.

Is it normal? yeah, many people buy MMOs, play for the first month & then never subscribe. Blizzard put out figures awhile ago, it was something like 80 or 90% of their players never made it past lvl 20 & never subscribed for more than 1 month. It was why Blizzard completely redesigned the lvling process when cata came out, they were trying to keep more players...

GreySix

tawok wrote: »

Grouping: I'm a big believer in "if you want to group, be the leader", but it's pretty tough in a game that doesn't really give incentive to group. Due to phasing/instancing issues, it's almost more advantageous to solo.

Concur. Makes no sense to be able to group with one other, questing throughout the game, when suddenly ... I'm solo now, because ... oh I dunno ... my group-mate is in the bathroom?