Perspective on Patch Priority

Aeradon

Before anything. I really love ESO. I really do.

I've been playing MMO games for more than a 13 years and ES series since Oblivion. This pains me but I know it destroys some players that have been supporting since Daggerfall or Morrowind.

This review will go by priority of things need to be looked into.

Bugs
All games have it. Elder Scrolls are infamous of being released with massive amount of bugs due to the vast world, recent multi platforms, focused team less than 50 personnels, tight schedules and much more. We've grown to accept this fact and still enjoy what other aspects the game has to offer while knowing it will be fixed by the mod community or an official patch.

MMORPG has no room for that choice. If one progress blocking bug exists, we won't be able to skip it and say oh it's ok, there's plenty to do. We are not playing alone, we need to keep up with friends to be able to assist them. Crafting/Leveling/Group are all zoned to levels and we want to be there all the time. We want titles and achievements to be able to signify what we're did, for others to know who to ask when they're in trouble, or to strike fear into enemies' heart.

We need confirmation on what issue is being looked into specifically and what measures are being considered. Put up a poll if you must, we love developer polls.

Example: Replies on Bangkorai quests achievement varies from "players missed out some quests and CS couldn't point out directly" to "Devs know there's a problem and are looking into it." We need to know what's wrong. We can't just keep thinking this game is built by gamers for gamers, and waste days run around the whole map like idiots talking to all NPC only to find outdated conversations or wrongly subbed dialogues rather than intended missing quests. (Update as of 26/5, Quest Achievements are lowered, however there's a new bug that shows all quest completion at 0/x. ZOS has mentioned a fix for the new bug in the next patch.)

Character related bugs are the major game breaker. We invest points into something that we think could help us but turns out not working at all. This will not only break confidence, but also make us feel so poor and exhausted constantly paying for our decision mistakes that aren't caused by ourselves. Min max decisions have to be reconsidered and placed on hold knowing that one day when the bug is fixed, these decisions could be wrong.

Listen to your players, they are right most of the time, when they're not pissed off. If you fix the ability/character bugs, people will figure out how to overcome whatever overpowering abilities with the extra non broken abilities to be considered. Nerfing before fixing is just not the way, nobody likes to invest so much time, effort and points to get nerfed. I might be wrong about this stats, but from what I see, D3 lost more than 1/3 of players when they released a nerf before a fix, learn from that.

My advise: Fix the bugs, then you may consider balancing or imposing/improving your AOE cap these sort of rules

Security & Bots
Most may have already mentioned this, account names being exposed to other players. At first I was convinced that it has it's pros and cons, though the idea is plain lazy and I have to change my account name because of privacy and security. Now I personally find this extremely dangerous, regardless of the reasoning. You have bots running wild because they can use a third party program within the game, so can they use the same third party program to hack our accounts. The username could be one's username for confidential usage and the password would most likely be the same given that we hold so many accounts across the net. There's a reason why emails aren't exposed nowadays, the same reason stands for account names. It's just like telling someone where my safe box is and not giving that someone the password; they can just take the safe box and keep trying until they open it.

Is account creation really that vulnerable? Is the simplicity of character creation/deletion what you intend? We make a character and would most likely spend hours playing it, why is there no restriction on character deletion? Why is there no soft key on character creation? MMO now may have a troublesome log in procedure with soft key and captcha what not, but they promise less disconnect and client restarts together with the important factors of account security and reduced AI activity. Until a complex log in is imposed, I personally feel that disconnection/retart is not much of a great deal, unless high frequency.

How many GM can you employ? Why not fix the root before enforcing laws? Spartans kill the weak babies before training what's left, they're not completely wrong in the sense of efficiency and resource management.

Bots exist, don't try the impossible, but reduce it by logical means, showing us in the mean time. I'm sure even with players help, the small team of GM won't be able to spot all the names of bots moving so fast it misses the eyes. We enjoy a good show of GM vs Bots but we need a real major fix

Be professional, patch notes in advance, ETA, specific details rather than simple comments. e.g. Problem A Quest B NPC 2 is to be solved in patch 1.1.5 on 2nd June 2014, Expect Problem B to be solved in next patch third week of June. Rather than "We're currently investigating...Keep an eye out for patch notes", players never know when is the patch/fix and the notes are only after the patch? It's like telling your boss, yeah I'm working, you'll know it's done when you get my e-mail. Just keep checking your e-mail cause I won't bother to notify/update you even when you asked me multiple times. Give yourselves a target, do the necessary.

Bugs, Bots, then you have all the right to push expansion and balancing.

Vestiges, let me know if I'm wrong or missed out something.

edit - [snip] are censored I don't know why, replaced with idiots.

Niliu wrote: »

Addition to your post. When new content is released, make sure there's something for everyone. Craglorn could've been a decent patch if there had been solo PvE and PvP content added, instead of just group PvE. Need to make sure all your customers are getting something to keep them engaged, otherwise you'll lose them.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Phantax

Aeradon wrote: »

Bugs, Bots, then you have all the right to push expansion and balancing

Pretty much right. Personally I'd put balancing before new content, but yeah, you pretty much nailed it

Aeradon

Phantax wrote: »

Aeradon wrote: »

Bugs, Bots, then you have all the right to push expansion and balancing

Pretty much right. Personally I'd put balancing before new content, but yeah, you pretty much nailed it

Wanted to, but then again I know a lot are dying for content.

david271749

I'm not dying for content. I'm especially not dying for more levels. I'm not a power leveler, and I don't care about having the perfect build. What I do care about is bots and bugs. Eliminate about 80% of those, and I'll be here until they shut down the servers.

Phantax

Aeradon wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

Aeradon wrote: »

Bugs, Bots, then you have all the right to push expansion and balancing

Pretty much right. Personally I'd put balancing before new content, but yeah, you pretty much nailed it

Wanted to, but then again I know a lot are dying for content.

Me too. I'm eagerly awaiting (THE OVERDUE) new content. But like you I've played MMOs for many years, I'm wise enough to know that unbalanced new content will just cause more frustrations.

You don't build a new house on dodgy foundations ! ! !

Aeradon

Phantax wrote: »

Aeradon wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

Aeradon wrote: »

Bugs, Bots, then you have all the right to push expansion and balancing

Pretty much right. Personally I'd put balancing before new content, but yeah, you pretty much nailed it

Wanted to, but then again I know a lot are dying for content.

Me too. I'm eagerly awaiting (THE OVERDUE) new content. But like you I've played MMOs for many years, I'm wise enough to know that unbalanced new content will just cause more frustrations.

You don't build a new house on dodgy foundations ! ! !

It's like these MMO know their toilet bowl is stuck, filled with crap. Yet they shut the door, buy some perfume, and built another toilet rather than fixing it.

Aeradon

With the recent patch, I believe I have the right to gain an insight from a moderator regarding this.

Please let me know if this is acknowledged and what are the priorities of ZOS, be it rolling out contents filled with more bugs are continuing the balancing prior to bug fixing?

I may be content with my NB, but most are enraged with the slight nerf prior to implementing the fixes on acknowledged issues. This hurts the player base, and that's what the game feeds on. I do not threaten to unsub, but I foresee a day where there will no longer be any players and I'm facing the dungeons alone should ZOS continues on this direction.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ I see that you have been replying some posts regarding the patch, and I appreciate that. Please shed some light on the company's direction if you could. Let us know if you don't have any clue as well, or post this question to your superior/related department.

RazzPitazz

I wholeheartedly agree with you on this subject. That subject being that I want some better communication. I also love this game and have mad respect for ZoS to tackle this project, but communication is lacking which is a bad thing. It doesnt help that we do not know how many individuals are actually working on ESO, how many are Forum Mods.
It is in my opinion that one of the best things an online game (and its parent company) can ever do for its community is to have open communication. This does not mean spoil the surprises, this does not mean answering questions outside of ones personal knowledge.
I think some of the employees would be amazed at how many customers/players would be quelled of their disatisfaction if they felt that the employees were people too. It really just seems like *most* are distant and detached. I know a few moderators on these forums actually engage with the players which is an awesome start and please do not stop doing so. We need to know you (the moderators) are people and that these things also concern you (which I am sure they do, if only so you can stop reminding people to mind the terms and conditions of flame wars).

Aeradon

rajaniemiorama_ESO wrote: »

I wholeheartedly agree with you on this subject. That subject being that I want some better communication. I also love this game and have mad respect for ZoS to tackle this project, but communication is lacking which is a bad thing. It doesnt help that we do not know how many individuals are actually working on ESO, how many are Forum Mods.
It is in my opinion that one of the best things an online game (and its parent company) can ever do for its community is to have open communication. This does not mean spoil the surprises, this does not mean answering questions outside of ones personal knowledge.
I think some of the employees would be amazed at how many customers/players would be quelled of their disatisfaction if they felt that the employees were people too. It really just seems like *most* are distant and detached. I know a few moderators on these forums actually engage with the players which is an awesome start and please do not stop doing so. We need to know you (the moderators) are people and that these things also concern you (which I am sure they do, if only so you can stop reminding people to mind the terms and conditions of flame wars).

In some ways, these problems hinder the mods from communicating to us. Who would want to handle the stress they didn't cause and not have any answers for the questions? Giving players the assurance that specific skill bugs will be fixed in the highest priority before implementing any balances to that said bugged skill would take the edge off and allow more engaging conversations from the mods. (They will sound happier too!)

RazzPitazz

^ Are you agreeing with me? At any rate I took a heavy role on the forums of a specific F2P game and the mods were VERY involved in the threads, and there were around 20 mods. They loved shooting around ideas for implimentation even if they had no say in it. If a reasonable question or concern would arise the typical response was "I do not directly deal with that aspect of the game, but I will see if I can get an official answer from someone who does" which was usually followed up with "we cant say anything right now, sorry guys." BTW this game makes buku money and the majority of the player base is happy with both the game and the communication. Forum mods are very important for player relationship managment.

Aeradon

rajaniemiorama_ESO wrote: »

^ Are you agreeing with me? At any rate I took a heavy role on the forums of a specific F2P game and the mods were VERY involved in the threads, and there were around 20 mods. They loved shooting around ideas for implimentation even if they had no say in it. If a reasonable question or concern would arise the typical response was "I do not directly deal with that aspect of the game, but I will see if I can get an official answer from someone who does" which was usually followed up with "we cant say anything right now, sorry guys." BTW this game makes buku money and the majority of the player base is happy with both the game and the communication. Forum mods are very important for player relationship managment.

I understand your point. I also agree that constant response/attention we get from the mods would allow players to settle down and assured that these ideas will get through to the debs ears.

Simply put, Mods+Communication+Player=Good

They have partially accomplished that, yet players are still raging on. Hence, we should add in new factors to contribute to success.

Devs+Direction+Requested Information+Mods+Communication+Player=Better

Now, they have all these in place, lacking proper implementation as they do not know what type of information we want. Implementation will get better to the level of what you said, with time and experience. However, players are still unhappy about the patch regardless of the amount of communication placed in. Hence, I'm suggesting this.

Priority+Devs+Direction+Requested Information+Mods+Communication+Player=Better+

We need a direction of where the game is heading, not just about content but priority. Focus on what bugs we have, then move on with whatever plans they wanna implement. Like I previously said in another thread, "If you know your toilet is stuck, filled with crap, you don't throw in perfume, shut the door and build a new toilet without fixing the first."

Bugs of current content isn't fully fixed, yet Craglorn launched with new bugs. They have plans and investigations on NB, also a massive thread on in progress known issues, yet less than 50% is solved with 1.1.2, 25% slightly fixed and emerged with new bug, the rest pushed forward to next patch. It doesn't make any logical sense.

RazzPitazz

While I agree about the patch I am satisfied with the quick hotfixes they are pushing over the holiday weekend, says alot. However (in my mind, though I am not a programmer) it would have been best to roll out the finished hotfixes prior to Craglorn to ensure maximum stability during content roll out. I could be wrong though.

Aeradon

rajaniemiorama_ESO wrote: »

While I agree about the patch I am satisfied with the quick hotfixes they are pushing over the holiday weekend, says alot. However (in my mind, though I am not a programmer) it would have been best to roll out the finished hotfixes prior to Craglorn to ensure maximum stability during content roll out. I could be wrong though.

The quick response hot fixes is exactly what we need, and am so glad they did it.

That's right! The content should be out when there are minimal bugs, takes the heat off the company and it's staff and they might even perform better! My guess is that they're really understaffed, judging from the amount of vacancies available.

Niliu

Aeradon wrote: »

Before anything. I really love ESO. I really do.

I've been playing MMO games for more than a 13 years and ES series since Oblivion. This pains me but I know it destroys some players that have been supporting since Daggerfall or Morrowind.

This review will go by priority of things need to be looked into.

Bugs
All games have it. Elder Scrolls are infamous of being released with massive amount of bugs due to the vast world, recent multi platforms, focused team less than 50 personnels, tight schedules and much more. We've grown to accept this fact and still enjoy what other aspects the game has to offer while knowing it will be fixed by the mod community or an official patch.

MMORPG has no room for that choice. If one progress blocking bug exists, we won't be able to skip it and say oh it's ok, there's plenty to do. We are not playing alone, we need to keep up with friends to be able to assist them. Crafting/Leveling/Group are all zoned to levels and we want to be there all the time. We want titles and achievements to be able to signify what we're did, for others to know who to ask when they're in trouble, or to strike fear into enemies' heart.

We need confirmation on what issue is being looked into specifically and what measures are being considered. Put up a poll if you must, we love developer polls.

Example: Replies on Bangkorai quests achievement varies from "players missed out some quests and CS couldn't point out directly" to "Devs know there's a problem and are looking into it." We need to know what's wrong. We can't just keep thinking this game is built by gamers for gamers, and waste days run around the whole map like idiots talking to all NPC only to find outdated conversations or wrongly subbed dialogues rather than intended missing quests.

Character related bugs are the major game breaker. We invest points into something that we think could help us but turns out not working at all. This will not only break confidence, but also make us feel so poor and exhausted constantly paying for our decision mistakes that aren't caused by ourselves. Min max decisions have to be reconsidered and placed on hold knowing that one day when the bug is fixed, these decisions could be wrong.

Listen to your players, they are right most of the time, when they're not pissed off. If you fix the ability/character bugs, people will figure out how to overcome whatever overpowering abilities with the extra non broken abilities to be considered. Nerfing before fixing is just not the way, nobody likes to invest so much time, effort and points to get nerfed. I might be wrong about this stats, but from what I see, D3 lost more than 1/3 of players when they released a nerf before a fix, learn from that.

My advise: Fix the bugs, then you may consider balancing or imposing/improving your AOE cap these sort of rules

Security & Bots
Most may have already mentioned this, account names being exposed to other players. At first I was convinced that it has it's pros and cons, though the idea is plain lazy and I have to change my account name because of privacy and security. Now I personally find this extremely dangerous, regardless of the reasoning. You have bots running wild because they can use a third party program within the game, so can they use the same third party program to hack our accounts. The username could be one's username for confidential usage and the password would most likely be the same given that we hold so many accounts across the net. There's a reason why emails aren't exposed nowadays, the same reason stands for account names. It's just like telling someone where my safe box is and not giving that someone the password; they can just take the safe box and keep trying until they open it.

Is account creation really that vulnerable? Is the simplicity of character creation/deletion what you intend? We make a character and would most likely spend hours playing it, why is there no restriction on character deletion? Why is there no soft key on character creation? MMO now may have a troublesome log in procedure with soft key and captcha what not, but they promise less disconnect and client restarts together with the important factors of account security and reduced AI activity. Until a complex log in is imposed, I personally feel that disconnection/retart is not much of a great deal, unless high frequency.

How many GM can you employ? Why not fix the root before enforcing laws? Spartans kill the weak babies before training what's left, they're not completely wrong in the sense of efficiency and resource management.

Bots exist, don't try the impossible, but reduce it by logical means, showing us in the mean time. I'm sure even with players help, the small team of GM won't be able to spot all the names of bots moving so fast it misses the eyes. We enjoy a good show of GM vs Bots but we need a real major fix

Be professional, patch notes in advance, ETA, specific details rather than simple comments. e.g. Problem A Quest B NPC 2 is to be solved in patch 1.1.5 on 2nd June 2014, Expect Problem B to be solved in next patch third week of June. Rather than "We're currently investigating...Keep an eye out for patch notes", players never know when is the patch/fix and the notes are only after the patch? It's like telling your boss, yeah I'm working, you'll know it's done when you get my e-mail. Just keep checking your e-mail cause I won't bother to notify/update you even when you asked me multiple times. Give yourselves a target, do the necessary.

Bugs, Bots, then you have all the right to push expansion and balancing.

Vestiges, let me know if I'm wrong or missed out something.

edit - [snip] are censored I don't know why, replaced with idiots.

Addition to your post. When new content is released, make sure there's something for everyone. Craglorn could've been a decent patch if there had been solo PvE and PvP content added, instead of just group PvE. Need to make sure all your customers are getting something to keep them engaged, otherwise you'll lose them.

Moderator Edit: Edited quote from moderated post.

Aeradon

@Niliu Great point. Hope you don't mind that I quote you and update the first post!

Niliu

@Aeradon‌ nah, I could use the good publicity

Aeradon

@Niliu Awesome. I'll buy you a unicorn if it ever gets released. People who tells you they wanna buy you an ale are liars, I don't wanna be generalised as one of them.

Niliu

@aeradon ***... Demon Unicorn!

Aeradon

@Niliu haha!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63C8DMN45uo

Cously

I love ES series, but have to admit. Idn't stick to the game if weren't for console commands and Unofficial Patches. In fact I'd never touch a Bethesda game. That said I'll only mention one case here, Skyrim DLCs for PS3 users. If you don't have a PC with console is impossible to play an ES game without step into a bug. That said we are at PC but not console to fix quests. And no mods to fix quests, so the developers should make a whole team dedicated to bug fix, can't use the same policy they used for the single player games.

Niliu

Aeradon wrote: »

@Niliu haha!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63C8DMN45uo

@aeradon Egad! RoboDemonUniPegasus!

Aeradon

Joolio wrote: »

I love ES series, but have to admit. Idn't stick to the game if weren't for console commands and Unofficial Patches. In fact I'd never touch a Bethesda game. That said I'll only mention one case here, Skyrim DLCs for PS3 users. If you don't have a PC with console is impossible to play an ES game without step into a bug. That said we are at PC but not console to fix quests. And no mods to fix quests, so the developers should make a whole team dedicated to bug fix, can't use the same policy they used for the single player games.

I have the same feeling as you do when I start up ESO. Best part is that i could remember starting up Skyrim for the first time, it made me download unofficial patch within 15 minutes. Then it's as if nobody tried to do the College of Winterhold quest. The moment I opened the first door of the dungeon and BAM! Crash.

I kept searching for any client fixes, or mods, but the modding community doesn't seem to even bother with ESO. They're doing such a good job with developing Skyrim that they believe their quests and concepts to be "too good for ESO." They may be right on some occasions.

Hence, ESO should really get their priorities right and prove to them who's boss!