Ban Software List

k9mouse

I was thinking when ESO updates / patches, the client will scan one's system for known Gold Farmer Software tools: Multi-Boxing, certain Add-Ons, etc.

Having the software on one's system will NOT ban someone, just alerts ZOS to watch that account much closer to see if the person breaks the TOS. In other ways, let the person hang him or herself if they try to use Black Listed software --- just a way to know what accounts to watch much closer and waste less resources on "know good" accounts of real players.

What do you think of this idea?

nerevarine1138

I'm 99% sure they do this already, but since bots change every time they're broken, it's not terribly effective in the long-term.

demendred

I like the idea of that. People who have nothing to hide shouldn't be worried about having their client scanned for any ill software.

Xilc

I don't think it's legal that they "scan one's system" because who's to say what they're really even scanning for? That's like saying the NSA (National Security Agency) should be allowed to scan anyone's computer they want at will if they want to use the internet.

They really just need time to identify and put in place certain security features to detect unwanted behavior in the game (i.e: characters running/moving at 3000% speed, characters under the floor/underground, characters playing for 24 hours a day 7 days a week with no breaks). They'll get around to it, it just takes some time.

k9mouse

ZOS add that in put of the TOS agreement and they will list all "Black List" programs that they are scanning for. One option, One can opt out of it, but it will auto put you on the "watch list" if you do.

LexonLightbringer

I am 99% sure they do not have the capability to track software. I am beginning to think Zenimax thought they were exempt from botting, seeming how it was an elder scrolls game. In order to truly track and monitor this software, I think they have to disable Add-ons! I have never seen a company so open to add-on support, most companies do not willingly promote add-ons but allow there existence.

Loxy37

demendred wrote: »

I like the idea of that. People who have nothing to hide shouldn't be worried about having their client scanned for any ill software.

Yeah like the NSA man!

nerevarine1138

LexonLightbringer wrote: »

I am 99% sure they do not have the capability to track software. I am beginning to think Zenimax thought they were exempt from botting, seeming how it was an elder scrolls game. In order to truly track and monitor this software, I think they have to disable Add-ons! I have never seen a company so open to add-on support, most companies do not willingly promote add-ons but allow there existence.

I'm 100% certain that you're wrong. That's how botting programs have always been broken in the past: the client does a quick check to see if any known bad programs are running when you boot up the game. It disables them. Blizzard's been doing it for years.

Alurria

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

LexonLightbringer wrote: »

I am 99% sure they do not have the capability to track software. I am beginning to think Zenimax thought they were exempt from botting, seeming how it was an elder scrolls game. In order to truly track and monitor this software, I think they have to disable Add-ons! I have never seen a company so open to add-on support, most companies do not willingly promote add-ons but allow there existence.

I'm 100% certain that you're wrong. That's how botting programs have always been broken in the past: the client does a quick check to see if any known bad programs are running when you boot up the game. It disables them. Blizzard's been doing it for years.

I can back you up on that one, Blizzard has been doing it for years. The out cry on their forums was large.

UrQuan

Hmm, if it's a quick check that just sees if those programs are running when the game boots... I know I'd be OK with that.

k9mouse

I am thinking more like once or twice a week HD scan when the update / patch happens.

~thinks~

May be random memory scans will be work also, to make sure that the black listed software was not started AFTER the ESO was started.

Hearts

I dont believe ZOS has a Warden in place, which they really should. They cant trust their own client, that was a stupid mistake.. Its pretty easy to hack the game at the moment BUT the game is new, this is natural for every new MMO.

THe problem with this idea is that ZOS can get sued, and without good lawyers it might end up very badly.

The idea here with scanning the computer is stupid on many levels and very illegal, scanning in processes should be enough.

Akhratos

Xilc wrote: »

I don't think it's legal that they "scan one's system" because who's to say what they're really even scanning for? That's like saying the NSA (National Security Agency) should be allowed to scan anyone's computer they want at will if they want to use the internet.

They really just need time to identify and put in place certain security features to detect unwanted behavior in the game (i.e: characters running/moving at 3000% speed, characters under the floor/underground, characters playing for 24 hours a day 7 days a week with no breaks). They'll get around to it, it just takes some time.

Hello there, ever heard of Punkbuster? You surely used it.

Now do some google research.

Spiritreaver_ESO

k9mouse wrote: »

I was thinking when ESO updates / patches, the client will scan one's system for known Gold Farmer Software tools: Multi-Boxing, certain Add-Ons, etc.

Having the software on one's system will NOT ban someone, just alerts ZOS to watch that account much closer to see if the person breaks the TOS. In other ways, let the person hang him or herself if they try to use Black Listed software --- just a way to know what accounts to watch much closer and waste less resources on "know good" accounts of real players.

What do you think of this idea?

Personally, i wouldn't care at all. I'd even agree to an addendum to the ToS that specifically called for it. Nothing on the machine i play on that i care about being messed with, besides my games obviously.

BUT

I've seen this issue brought up in other game communities and it never ends well.

There is always a very vocal faction that is stridently against ANY process not put on their machine by themselves, being on their machines. Much less an info-gathering one. And really, in this day and age i don't think they can be blamed for their caution.

Then there is the opposing group that is 'if it helps the game, i'm all for it!'. And their view has merit as well.

Other groups exist as well, but the main two proceed to duke it out ad nausea for weeks. And in the end, the devs never really chime in one way or the other and do what the feel is best ANYWAYS.

Take what you can out of that ramble.

Sakiri

Xilc wrote: »

I don't think it's legal that they "scan one's system" because who's to say what they're really even scanning for? That's like saying the NSA (National Security Agency) should be allowed to scan anyone's computer they want at will if they want to use the internet.

They really just need time to identify and put in place certain security features to detect unwanted behavior in the game (i.e: characters running/moving at 3000% speed, characters under the floor/underground, characters playing for 24 hours a day 7 days a week with no breaks). They'll get around to it, it just takes some time.

Its perfectly legal atm and thats why people have a problem with it.

Blizzarx has been doing it forever.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warden_(software)

Getorix

MMOs used to do this, I remember when EQ1 stopped doing it because people were convinced Verrant was spying on them because they were detecting other programs you were running on your computer.

Naguur86

Sure Warden is scanning for running software, that is ok. What is not ok is that a company is scanning my hard drive completely.

That is not because I have to hide sth. illegal or whatever on my pc but people have personal things, work related things, contacts, pictures, passwords and whatnot on their harddrives. You could also say that every gouvernment should be allowed to eavesdrop every phonecall you make because if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.

This is a data protection issue.

Sakiri

Warden scans RAM and matches hashes. If your work stuff is running at the same time as the game, warden sees it, is sending data to Blizzards servers, and attempting to match it with known cheat software.

Warden runs the entire time the game is running, not just the launcher, not just at startup. Otherwise botters would just wait until the game is done loading to start up its bot software.

Getorix wrote: »

MMOs used to do this, I remember when EQ1 stopped doing it because people were convinced Verrant was spying on them because they were detecting other programs you were running on your computer.

In EQ1 so much as tabbing out was considered cheating.

rawne1980b16_ESO

Hearts wrote: »

THe problem with this idea is that ZOS can get sued, and without good lawyers it might end up very badly.

ZOS is part of Zenimax Media that also owns Bathesda.

The don't have one good lawyer ..... they have a whole team.

zhevon

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

ZOS is part of Zenimax Media that also owns Bathesda.

The don't have one good lawyer ..... they have a whole team.

And weird things happen when they get bored ...

Sakiri

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

Hearts wrote: »

THe problem with this idea is that ZOS can get sued, and without good lawyers it might end up very badly.

ZOS is part of Zenimax Media that also owns Bathesda.

The don't have one good lawyer ..... they have a whole team.

Their CEO is a lawyer.

Xilc

Loxy37 wrote: »

demendred wrote: »

I like the idea of that. People who have nothing to hide shouldn't be worried about having their client scanned for any ill software.

Yeah like the NSA man!

We don't need no NSA

Daethz

demendred wrote: »

I like the idea of that. People who have nothing to hide shouldn't be worried about having their client scanned for any ill software.

NSA mentality.
If you have nothing to hide can I search your house and confiscate your computer for a few weeks? And put a HD camera in your toilet and shower?
Gotta make sure your not a terrorist.

You cannot stop bots, if you find a way to block one bot program, someone will design a better one. WoW has thousands of bots today, if you go to Valley of the Four winds on my old WoW server you will find a few dozen bots.

If stopping bots was possible, they wouldent exist on any mmo. Its not possible.
The only thing you can do is seal the exploits they use so they dont have a advantage over normal players.

Daethz

Whats also funny is the NSA has probably already hacked into Blizzards warden and probably uses it against people all the time.

Even though no terrorist plot has ever been detected on any video game ever made in the history of mankind. And its likely terrorists have never used videogames as a chat system.

And wouldent the better option to simply block the middleeast from americas internet all together? Might aswell do china too, since china seems to contain almost all of the gold sellers/bots/hackers.

silent88b14_ESO

pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »

I can back you up on that one, Blizzard has been doing it for years. The out cry on their forums was large.

The outcry on these forums is large anyway, so that argument is effectively no argument.

Daethz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymkA1N3oFwg
Welcome to the future.

rawne1980b16_ESO

zhevon wrote: »

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

ZOS is part of Zenimax Media that also owns Bathesda.

The don't have one good lawyer ..... they have a whole team.

And weird things happen when they get bored ...

Like when they took Mojang to court over the Scrolls thing ..... and lost.

Night_Watch

Daethz wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymkA1N3oFwg
Welcome to the future.

Hill air re us!

On topic,

I do not multibox but I know it can be done without added software. May be hard to control three plus toons with three comps, keys and mouse but it can be done. Furthermore, multiboxing is allowed (search forums for devs / mods saying so).

Bot software is bad - no doubt. But how are you going to absoloutely 100% ensure that bot software is being used and not some legit tool? In another game (via forum), I mentioned using a widescreen tool that helped with UI placement while using eyefinity and, after being threatened with 'I report U' and having vieled threats of violance towards me because someone thaught I was cheating I had to plead my case with the mods / devs. The ruling was in my favor as it goes. The game was even adapted to run better on eyefinity rigs - not my doing but I had a very small part in convincing (at least) one dev in particular that the game should support eyefinity without the need of third party help.

On to the 'you got nothing to fear if you got nothing to hide' debate. So! I have done nothing wrong but because of a few 'bad apples', a gaming company should have the right to do a full scan on my PC? I think not. I have private folders with some very basic art work I did, programming / scripting saves, family photos and other entirely legal private stuff. So what right does any private individual, company or other body have to scan my data / information? NON. I have nothing to fear, I have nothing to hide (at least not within the negative conotation in this discussion) but I do have a right to privacy.

[Full scan is the issue here! I agree that a scan of TESO folders is probably OK but I cannot condone a full system scan. Furthermore I understand that such a full scan would, likely, be impracticle. I also understand what has been said regarding not looking anywhere but at files directly linked to TESO. Slightly changing the subject, a point made to me recently was that, no matter what T&C etc says no company can over rule local, national or international law. I'm not suggesting that anyone is trying to do so though.]

I cannot condone the use of bot software or any other cheats but I think scanning a users computer for such software is questionable. I already question the legitimacey of such a scan - especially on privacy matters. I also question the effectiveness and (or) accuracy of such scans. Lastly, I question the attitude that would bring about such scans that seems to be 'you play the game therefore you are pressumed guilty until proven innocent' (of wrong doing).

EDITED: In part to tidy up and in part to respond to other posts.

k9mouse

The software will NOT ban a player if found on the his or her computer, but does let ZOS knows that a certain player may be a botter. Then ZOS look at player's account for more data -- char names, run patterns, mail / chat messages, etc to see if the player is indeed a botter or not. Breaking TOS is what gets a player ban, not the software on one's system. That goes the idea, anyways.

The scan will be looking for know harsh tags of executable files, not word docs, pics, etc. For Addon, for them to work, they have to be in ESO folder. Thus the system only have to look there. Almost all programs are in the program files folder as well. The scan does not need to look at " My Docs" folder. Also, the scan can look at the Windows Registry -- 3 binary files in the window folder to see what is install or not. The scan does not have to look at pics, docs, etc to see if a program is there or not.

demendred

Loxy37 wrote: »

demendred wrote: »

I like the idea of that. People who have nothing to hide shouldn't be worried about having their client scanned for any ill software.

Yeah like the NSA man!

Yea mmmmmmmmmmaaaaaaaan!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Daethz wrote: »

demendred wrote: »

I like the idea of that. People who have nothing to hide shouldn't be worried about having their client scanned for any ill software.

NSA mentality.
If you have nothing to hide can I search your house and confiscate your computer for a few weeks? And put a HD camera in your toilet and shower?
Gotta make sure your not a terrorist.

You cannot stop bots, if you find a way to block one bot program, someone will design a better one. WoW has thousands of bots today, if you go to Valley of the Four winds on my old WoW server you will find a few dozen bots.

If stopping bots was possible, they wouldent exist on any mmo. Its not possible.
The only thing you can do is seal the exploits they use so they dont have a advantage over normal players.

Sounds like you favor bots...Mind if we look in your computer?

Sakiri

Warden works by scanning RAM. Dont want your adult entertainment detected dont run it while running the game.

Terms of service contains "consent to monitor" btw, so even if they added it, theyre covered.