ZO. Seriously. Make SOME attempt at balancing the classes please. They are incredibly unbalanced.

Wifeaggro13

Grim13 wrote: »

"Play your way as a DK"

im not saying that Dk's should not be in light armor. but they should not be the most effective build in the class or out perform every other class build. they definately should not have better survivability then a DK in heavy or medium for that matter because of magica and being able to use green dragon blood and spiked armor with no limits. Nor should they be able to spam impulse and build Ulti before the first banner has even expired. Partialy the Dk has some over powered abilites, but the major issue is ZOS's design , Lets just take the hundings set for example. instead of addressing the issue with Armor passives under performing the medium and heavy armors. and melee skills being pretty bad. they increased a primairly melee set from 5 % weapon damage to 20%. It increases melee weapon DPS builds quite a bit which is great. But it also increases Destro builds signifcantly lol the nerfed impulse to cost more. but all those magica abilites from Destro are increased by Weapon damage lol. they tried to decrease the spamability but increased the DPS now of destro abilities across the board.
There is a video showing a templar in light armor then using heavy . the mitigation was so minimal between heavy and light it was not worth the mana reduction to wear heavy.that same video shows that weapon abilites no matter if its stam or magica are increased by weapon damage buffs.
Dk's has two DD abilities in its arsenal. the rest of it is utility damage or debuff. with one very poor damage shield. the DK's issue with being OP is being able to maximize its resources across the board and still retain the best Survivability in game . Then have an extremely easy time of building ultimate through AOE of Destro staff, on top of having the OP banner. take away the banner and cap the Dk's magica while in light armor and the class would be about as effective as the broken night blade for soloing. The only difference would be is we would live longer VR content. Now you will see Dunnmer DK's in 5 / funace and 5/ hundings light.

Therium104

Templar currently has more sustained dps than DK. The complaining needs to end. More importantly, the devs need to realize that making balance changes based on forum posts by people like the OP only breaks the game further. This is a complicated game with large differences in ability betwern playerd but no limitations on access to post. That is a tard with no thumbs, eye patch, and no skill will get on these forums and whine because they are horrible. See the OP.

The nerf to bash removed an entire playstyle from the game. This kind of garbage must end.

The game does not even have group parses. No benchmark for performance. It has only been out a short time. Use your damn brains Zenimax and stop balancing off the forums. Someone can be horrible and post they are not performing as well but it could be there own damn fault.

Wake the hell up.

vicNBitis

Wow. So you're a DK AND shield-bash defender? And call other people "horrible, "tard", "garbage"?

gimmethecreepsb14_ESO

Travail wrote: »

The problem is, how do you fix the DK?

Nerfing the class into the ground isn't the answer. There are DK's out there soloing veteran rank dungeons with Talons... and other DK's soloing VR dungeons without Talons. Does Talons need more nerfs? It's obviously not a necessary component of broken DK builds.

I could say the same about Inhale. I could also say the same about Green Dragon's Blood. Molten Weapons. Even the Standard isn't a necessary component of these broken builds, and it's #1 on many players' hit lists.

Do you nerf every skill they have? Because currently there are a ton of DK skills that, when used in various combinations, allow for the DK to solo content not meant for soloing. It's a tough question to answer. I'd hate to be in the shoes of the developers, because honestly I think they need to redesign some of these abilities from the ground up; and that's usually an even less popular choice than flat nerfs.

-Travail.

I gotta be real with you bro, how the hell can you keep a straight face and say Nerfing DK's isn't the answer in one sentence, and then talk about how DK's can solo vet content with or without 1 overpowered ability in the next? Maybe I missed the sarcasm?

gimmethecreepsb14_ESO

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Axer wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

I stopped reading at DK's put out over 1 k ST DPS. sure we have some good abilities. but about the best ST Sustained DPS is templar at 1.4 k . ive not seen a DK put out anything over 600 to 700 ST sustained.
As far as out living Mobs , yes we are the best at out living them.

So you run with poor DKs? Can't believe some simple facts?

And no, templars can not do that ever. Post a screenshot. Even BURSTING 1.4 with spear vs 2-3 mobs was insanely difficult.

Prepatch a templar could do 700-800 with biting jabs + a light attack in between with a top notch weapon, and some luck, as it relied heavily on random procs and crits, which templars just can't at high rates like other classes (Biting jabs auto crits at low health, but otherwise cant get a super high crit rate) . Post patch they can't do *** at all anymore. Dropped to maybe 350 with biting jabs, nothing else does anything single target.

The reason for this was and remain very simple:

Biting jabs is extremely hard to boost. It's spell dmg only, and spell crit. The only way to up spell dmg to any decent degree was +spell dmg jewlery. It can not proc strong effects like evil hunter.

While a DK..
No problem. Evil hunter procs on nearly everything they use. Lava whip? yep. And all destro staff skills, along with there huge synergy, it has a massive impact on dps. And destro staff spells are easier to boost being weapon damage, with so many ways to buff it. (Molten weps, hundings rage, war horn, etc.)

Post patch, a templar will do more dps using destro now too.. But are just plain straight inferior at it due to no synergy.

Ya pretty stupid design i agree. i dont use a destro staff or light armor . its plainly simple that build is absloutely broken. I gree DK in light armor using the resto Destro combo is over powered.
Melee in general is F ing horrible . as far as the sets go hundings is a friggin cheap ass cop out by the development team . the know melee was in a crap state and chose to give melee a 20% increase through a set then go and fix the broken Melee/Stamina system. All it really did is make Destro staffs way more viable then they already were.
Evil hunter works for every class its a fighters guild ability. and molten armaments needs to be cast every 6 seconds to work properly. and i dis agree i dont run with bad DK's. i personaly dint use the light armor specs because i built my self a traditional tank. And i recognize the complete and total over powered build that is the DK in light Armor spamming AOE's buffing himself with spiked armor and dropping banners over and over and over thats why the DPS is so high. Lava whip is the only DD ability a DK has so i would expect it to be powerful. espically since all melee abilities suck ass.
As for the templar well in all honesty if your crying that you cant keep up with the DPS of a DK or sorc . neither can heal as well as you. but i do recognize some DK builds are simply over powered. But dont roll the friggin main healer and get pissed because you cant DPS But the templar 1.4 k ST dps is real . By far if any class has the right to be pissed right now its the nightblade. Im gonna start a why cant a DK be a main healer thread. And perosnaly templar makes a way better tank why dont you try that.Or you could use the exact same set up as that guy level those abilities and use your ST DD spell . it will be pretty damn close.

I disagree. I don't think DK is the designated tank and Sorc is the designated caster class, and if it was, I'd hate this game because there'd only be 4 classes, filling 1 role each. That's even more 1 dimensional than world of warcraft. I could play everquest 1 from 1999 and get more diversity.

I like seeing DK cloth casters and I like playing a sorc tank, which on paper has awesome powers to aid in tanking, but in practice is so-so. DK's have the most powerful tanking passives and the most powerful AOE dps passives. Sorc's get a 5% boost to stormcalling powers (whoopie) and a chance to disintegrate low health opponents.

On top of that, it's probably safe to say thanks to the amazing synergy of Kindling, Molten Weapons, and a fire-dmg resto staff, a DK will also outheal a sorc too. Just to add insult to injury.

Shaun98ca2

So haven't read the thread at all but here is my thoughts on the matter.

IF a particular class has a particular ability say Bitting Jabs out performing the rest of the classes abilities then its harder to balance that class with another that has all its abilities in line.

Lets pretend DK has NO issues in performance an all abilities are as they should be say 100%.

Then you get Templar with Bitting Jabs out of whack standing at a say 70%. You bring Templar in line with DK and find out now Templar has an ability that is out performing all of DK's abilities.

Then you bring Bitting Jabs in line with the rest of the Templar's abilities and find out Templar is STILL under performing cause that ability was wrecking the curve.

Get the classes abilities all in line THEN balance with the rest of the classes.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Look Shaun,

They tried to do so, and they made Templar bit unwieldy now. The Bitting Jabs nerf just screw any DPS the templar had.

And if you are Shield Templar, that little more damage the deadly bash was doing is gone.

Add into the equation that Templar has the worst magicka management of all classes, and to keep healing itself needs more resources than a DK needs to heal himself it forces every single Templar out there to play on a specific style.

That of caster. Equipped with light armour and staff.

Evergreen

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Look Shaun,

worst magicka management

Therium104

vicNBitis wrote: »

Wow. So you're a DK AND shield-bash defender? And call other people "horrible, "tard", "garbage"?

Shield bash defender? I an saying this debate is ridiculous and this thread is meaningless opinion. Zenimax better wake up and treat these nerf and buff threads for what they are...

Garbage.

Reacting to over exaggerations. Idiotic whines based on the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. Fools that are incapable of finding counters or playing the game who come whine on the forums.

Axer

This thread is an accurate assessment of the game based on 50+ days of experience, and talking to 200+ players about it.

If anyones more qualified, I haven't met them. I played this game rather hardcore since headstart.

Leveling a DK now, and everything I said and heard from other players only rings doubly true as I utterly wreck every bit of content 4-5 levels above me. They are crazy strong in the hands of a skilled player.

They need some minor adjustments to their insane passives (battle roar just breaks the game)

But other then that, the games hard enough at the endgame, they dont need major nerfs, other classes just need MAJOR buffs.

Jeremy_gelber_ESO

Evergreen wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Look Shaun,

worst magicka management

and that set is available to everyone. so its still the worst of all the classes.

Sihnfahl

Therium104 wrote: »

I an saying this debate is ridiculous and this thread is meaningless opinion. Zenimax better wake up and treat these nerf and buff threads for what they are...

It's even worse when there are out and out class abilities that are BROKEN. You can't say one class is out of whack compared to the others when the intended functions of the 'broken' class, which would presumably make them on par with the 'superior' class, don't work right!

It's like trying to compare two engines when one engine has a known manufacturing defect that robs it of 25% of its horsepower, then wanting to make them even by breaking the 'working' engine, not fixing the broken one!

Shaun98ca2

Sihnfahl wrote: »

Therium104 wrote: »

I an saying this debate is ridiculous and this thread is meaningless opinion. Zenimax better wake up and treat these nerf and buff threads for what they are...

It's even worse when there are out and out class abilities that are BROKEN. You can't say one class is out of whack compared to the others when the intended functions of the 'broken' class, which would presumably make them on par with the 'superior' class, don't work right!

It's like trying to compare two engines when one engine has a known manufacturing defect that robs it of 25% of its horsepower, then wanting to make them even by breaking the 'working' engine, not fixing the broken one!

Yea this statement rings REALLY true. Most of the classes are REALLY bugged. Attempting to bring say NB in line with DK would cause HORRIBLE problems as SOMEBODY would find SOMETHING clearly overpowered and abuse from the word go.

After that NB would probably get all its abilities fixed and find out its STILL more powerful than current DK and then has to be nerfed.

Its best to get all the majority of the bugs out of the class 1st then shoot for balancing. If anybody knows anything about computer programming its that unexpected things happen when you make even the slightest change. Fixing one thing can easily break something else that wasn't even broken to begin with.

vicNBitis

Axer wrote: »

Leveling a DK now, and everything I said and heard from other players only rings doubly true as I utterly wreck every bit of content 4-5 levels above me. They are crazy strong in the hands of a skilled player.

They need some minor adjustments to their insane passives (battle roar just breaks the game)

But other then that, the games hard enough at the endgame, they dont need major nerfs, other classes just need MAJOR buffs.

I saw a level 47 DK farming zombies in Coldharbour. There was a V12 sorcerer there as well(why I have no idea) and I swear you couldn't tell a bit of difference between them. DKs are just absolutely crazy OP still. The Impulse nerf did zip.

They need major nerfs. Starting with Talons, Magma Armor, and Standard. At least.

Wifeaggro13

vicNBitis wrote: »

Axer wrote: »

Leveling a DK now, and everything I said and heard from other players only rings doubly true as I utterly wreck every bit of content 4-5 levels above me. They are crazy strong in the hands of a skilled player.

They need some minor adjustments to their insane passives (battle roar just breaks the game)

But other then that, the games hard enough at the endgame, they dont need major nerfs, other classes just need MAJOR buffs.

I saw a level 47 DK farming zombies in Coldharbour. There was a V12 sorcerer there as well(why I have no idea) and I swear you couldn't tell a bit of difference between them. DKs are just absolutely crazy OP still. The Impulse nerf did zip.

They need major nerfs. Starting with Talons, Magma Armor, and Standard. At least.

Impulse is not a DK ability i really dont see this massive gap between sorc and dk. but Nightblades suck horribly . Magma armor is fine Bnner needs to be toned and talons got nerfed its al but useless for PVE VR dungeons now

vicNBitis

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Impulse is not a DK ability i really dont see this massive gap between sorc and dk. but Nightblades suck horribly

Impulse though is a giant cog in the DK AOE spam machine. If that nerf was intended to hit DKs it was a definitely a miss.

Wifeaggro13

Delete

vicNBitis

Is there some reason you're quoting yourself? It wasn't responsive the first time. I was just being nice responding in any way.

Wifeaggro13

vicNBitis wrote: »

Is there some reason you're quoting yourself? It wasn't responsive the first time. I was just being nice responding in any way.

Phone posting is wonky i went in to edit and i quoted

kharl08

just trolling around on another whining thread, i mean nerfing thread...

Axer

Next update:

Templars get un nerfed, then nerfed again. Nonsensical.

Imo it's a pride thing. They thought biting jabs was OP. They were VASTLY wrong and admitted it, and agreed to revert the change based on player feedback.

Yet they couldn't fully admit they were wrong, so they nerfing it in a different way that won't break the class completely like it is now, but still unbalance the game further. And I get it, I have a very hard time admitting when I'm wrong too, but I can admit it.

If anything, biting jabs should be BUFFED. It's templars ONLY dps skill, and even with it maxxed out via V14 legendary spell dmg runes, templars STILL cannot compete with Sorcs or DKs. This is just plain and simple fact pre patch ,and more so post patched since DKs got buffed, and Sorcs got some bug fixes.

NB get a few bug fixes, not enough to make them at all worth it.

DK/Sor unchanged, they remain gods of the game.

Nightman'Cometh

The biggest issue with DK is their cheap and powerful Ults. With some cost reduction gear and the proper build, it isn't that difficult to pop Standard AND molten armor before the first one expires. If the ults were modified to either be more expensive or less damaging it'd help a lot.

Beyond that, I think the issues with balance have more to do with how class abilities utilize mana (poor choice) and how low the softcaps are for armor/health. Any class that wants to do weapon based DPS atm (melee nightblade) are severely gimped because class abilities currently decimate weapon abilities in overall utility -- and those are all magicka based. I think raising the armor cap would make heavy armor a much more viable choice for DK's. With the current system, rolling 7 or even 5 pieces of heavy feels like a poor decision because of how easily softcap can be reached by using the armor buff.

I agree with you on the whole -- changes need to be made. I just think they should be focused around fixing the systems currently in place as opposed to the classes that use them.

trimsic_ESO

The problem you are referring to in this thread is not about DK being overpowered; it's about magicka / light armor / destruction staff being on top of everything else. The DK can leverage on these already overpowered assets, and complement them with all the defensive skills of the DK.

That's the issue.

Spectrasoul

Dragon Knights are fine (wait.. hear me out here.) the problem is that because they are so well made and their skills work so nicely with each other the other classes don't have a hope in hell. It kinda feels like the developers got so engrossed in this one class they took years making it work perfectly, then forgot about the others and just hastily cobbled them together a week before release.

The problem is now that 2 months into launch it is too late to do what really needs doing (Full redesign for the other 3 classes.)

A total rethink of the way stamina and magicka abilities scale and what abilities use which resource is also needed. Right now, everyone knows that stamina is terrible. As a result Medium armor is also pretty bad and let's not get started on the horrible weak passives.

The combination of all these things working together means the already most broken class in terms of abilities and bugs (Nightblade) is even more heavily gimped. Leaving the only realistic alternative of going Light Armor + Destro Staff just to keep our heads above the water.

Now the whole point of this game is that anyone can be anything, for nightblade it's the exact opposite, we are being forced down an extremely narrow path.

If Templar's didn't have the only healing class tree then they'd be in a similar position. And in terms of viable builds they already are.

grizzbi

NB can solo Craglorn too.
Does it make them overpowered? No.
People should analyse the situation with everything in mind before they get mad.
A few generic skills need to be adjusted. Then we'll see the current state of each class.

khele23eb17_ESO

grizzbi wrote: »

NB can solo Craglorn too.
Does it make them overpowered? No.

Theres the detail of the video showing a NB soloing 4man stuff while the DK video shows soloing 12 man stuff :P

They should probably tone magicka skills down to the level of stamina ones - that would make things more balanced and endgame content more challenging. Would give it some longevity too.

Axer

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

grizzbi wrote: »

NB can solo Craglorn too.
Does it make them overpowered? No.

Theres the detail of the video showing a NB soloing 4man stuff while the DK video shows soloing 12 man stuff :P

They should probably tone magicka skills down to the level of stamina ones - that would make things more balanced and endgame content more challenging. Would give it some longevity too.

Would also make the trials essentially impossible to complete.

They put in DPS checks you 100% CAN NOT DO if you use primary stamina skills.

So no. Nerfs arent the answer.

Buffs to non-dks are.

Only nerf 100% required is Magma armor. Im sorry but a godmode button that can be maintained 100% of the time vs decent AOE packs or even large scale pvp is plain broken and can't be fixed by buffing other classes.

That and ultimate gain across the board has to change. It was super buffed this patch, when the notes actually said it was nerfed. Pretty funny. DKs build it by far the fastest, evne when using a resto staff tho, pretty sure there class skill only passive are bugged and applying to everything (One increases ultimate gain in earth heart, and should only be earthen heart abilities, but doesnt seem to be).

Also my personal character was somehow nerfed.. I can't build ultimate out of combat period. Which is definitely a bug that other players can, but puts me at a great disadvantage.

Therium104

Given the fact NB is solo group content in craglorn when are the devs going to balance this broken class. NB desperately needs a nerf and this game needs to be balanced.

khele23eb17_ESO

Therium104 wrote: »

Given the fact NB is solo group content in craglorn when are the devs going to balance this broken class. NB desperately needs a nerf and this game needs to be balanced.

NBs can solo some specific pieces of 4 man content in crag (veeeeryyy sloooooowly), DKs can solo 12 man content... Id nerf something but it wouldnt be NBs :P

Axer wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

grizzbi wrote: »

NB can solo Craglorn too.
Does it make them overpowered? No.

Theres the detail of the video showing a NB soloing 4man stuff while the DK video shows soloing 12 man stuff :P

They should probably tone magicka skills down to the level of stamina ones - that would make things more balanced and endgame content more challenging. Would give it some longevity too.

Would also make the trials essentially impossible to complete.

They put in DPS checks you 100% CAN NOT DO if you use primary stamina skills.

So no. Nerfs arent the answer.

Because its impossible to add a few minutes to the 'enrage timer'...

Shaun98ca2

If I was a DK I would a want a Nerf......Miss a lot of content when rolling my face against the keyboard hard to see the screen.