ZO. Seriously. Make SOME attempt at balancing the classes please. They are incredibly unbalanced.

Axer

Alright so many of us have read the craglorn patch notes.

And overall they are buffing DKs moderately, nerfing templars, and not really changing sorcerers or nightblades (minor bug fixes only).

I read that and was like ??????????

Anyone who has played this game at endgame PvE or PvP VERY clearly understands the class balance:

Dragonkights:
INSANELY far ahead of every other class. To the point it's not even funny. They are by far the best at:
- Single target dps: 1000+ sustained single target is not too difficult for a VR10 DK to attain. It's 100% plain impossible for every other class. Sorcs and Templars can only dream of hitting 800+ sustained.
- AOE DPS . 6000+ Burst aoe is not uncommon (even seen a screenshot of over 9000 due to the fact some of their abilities have no target limits), 3000+ sustained against reasoanble numbers of targets is no problem, and where as templar and sorcerer can only DREAM of 2k burst aoe dps. And thats only if they use a flame destro staff to PRETEND to be a dragonknight. 1 DK can litterally do by himself - easily, what 2 other players of any class will STRUGGLE to do. It's insanely unbalanced. Primarily due to the synergy of DK passives/fire line with Destro flame staff.
- CC. Any PvPer knows this insanely: Burning talons wins this game. The same thing applies in PvE. It's insanely better then any other non-ultimate cc in the game.
- Tanking: Green dragonblood is the best health recovery utlity ability in the game for a tank. Add that along with there high block mitigation and INSANE ultimate that caps damage taken at 3% and forget it. Templars a close second ignoring ultimates, but they just don't have the same insane ultimates that break the game.
- - Healing. Great. Motlen weapon to buff your resto staff damage and thus heals. Drop the standard, +20% healing, -20% damage reduction for self? Snare enemies? Lower enemies incoming healing? Low cost? Insanely powerful. Templars are arguebly better sure, but not by much.
- Killing you in pvp. DKs need only to hold block, spam burning talons and you die. You can't move. You cant interupt to break out. You can roll dodge - but youll just get caught in the next one and be out of stamina. Forget it. Unless you outnumber them badly, your dead.
- They can block while activating ALL of their abilities, and have some of the best stamina recovery with green dragon blood. They are so insanely better it's not even funny. You need only to look around the pvp battlefields at what class is dominating to see this.

Sorcerers are also very good at pvp (They lead the leaderboards in most cases), but not purely because of their class power - but because range is simply better for getting points in massive scale pvp (Front line fighters are always the first to die, and the dead dont gain much points - so while its very difficult to kill a highly skilled, well geared melee DK, they will still usually die before a sorcerer).

Nightblades:
INSANELY far behind every other class, not even funny. Complete oposite spectrum of DKs.
- DPS: They are meant to maybe be the best single target? They are the worst. It's not even funny how bad they are. Post craglorn they can now about tie Templars, still insanely far behind DKs and Sorcs, which is just plain not right given NBs other utility is limited.
- AOE DPS: They don't have any worth mentioning. They can destro staff impulse spam as badly as a templar and thats it.
- CC: Next to none. Least they get a fear ability which can stop some DKs, but other then that.. Very poor. Utterly worthless for pve, and only mildly amusing when they fear a dk in pvp, not like thats gonna kill one.
- Tanking: Heh. They bring nothing notable to the table. Sure they can do it, but so can anyclass since the main skill line required isn't lock to a class.
- Healing: Poor except for trials: In trials there defensive ultimate (Veil of Blades) is arguably the strongest defensive ultimate in the game, and for many groups, key to completion.
-- Their actual heals that effect other players are extremely weak. No abilities that boost heals like DKs get either.
- PvP: Poor. Look at the leaderboards: Sorcerers and DKs lead it, thats it. And people LOVE the sneaky type roguish class for pvping since they dominate in other class, so you KNOW some top skilled players are trying there hearts out, yet they just cant as the class is just bad. Their one saving grace is the fact they get a fear, but so do sorcerers. (And fear is the only real effective way to counter a tankish DK spamming talons on you while blocking.)

Sorcerer:
-DPS: Ok. They do fine, they have long ranged and some of their hardest hitting skills also cc, so they don't need the top single target. Nightblade should have that (at melee) range.. Yet they are ahead of NB, and but far behind DK, which they should not be.
- AOE DPS: 2nd best, but still no where near dk. They can destro staff impulse spam a bit better then others due to 1 class skill synergy.
- CC: Non ultimates: Good, but Inferior to DK, which should not be the case for this style of class. Ultimates: Negate magic is argueably the best ultimate CC, so they are quite good as long as they can build it fast.
- Tanking: Meh. Should not be a great tank class. and imo is not. Fine. Certainly are the most survivable when running away tho in pvp, gota give them that.
- Healing: Very good at lower levels, arguably the best due to dark exchange. Mana management is the HARDEST by far challenge of low lvl healing. However by endgame, as people learn to use equilibrium, this advantage is lost.. So DKs and Templars espcially pull ahead... Given they don't really have any synergy to up healing like those 2 classes do, just better mana recovery ability.
- PvP: They lead the leaderboards, yet 1v1 against a DK... They lose. The reason is due to range being superior in this style of pvp (Large scale massive battles). Plus they can run away so well, that they suffer much less down time from death.
- Running away class: By far #1. Gods of running away.

Templar:
-DPS: Mediocre. With only a SINGLE decent dps class ability (Biting Jabs) in their ENTIRE repretoire, they are extremely limited in where they can apply it. Close range melee only. When spamming this one ability though, they can deal SOME dps though, just not anything that super useful at endgame, about 600-700.
- AOE DPS: Poor. Biting jabs is aoe, however it only does half damage to non primary targets, making it vastly inferior to what DKs can deliver. Even with 0 synergy at all, spamming impulse tends to do better as it covers more area, activates faster and allows block while it's in use (Instant vs 1.1 seconds channel).
- CC: Extremely poor. Aside from the minor stagger the stab induces, there is essentially ZERO cc abilities available to templars outside of 1 ultimate: Solar prison - the synergy on this is a fairly effective CC tool.. But being a synergy is a huge weakness in this game, due to poor synergy design (overlaping synergys can't be selected).
- Healing: At endgame, pretty much the best. Their class heals are not nearly as efficient as resto staff, and there passives have ZERO effect on resto staff abilities.. But despite that, access to a fairly strong instant burst heal (Breath of life) can be critical in many situations. At lower levels, Sorcerers easily outshine them, as do DKs.
- PvP: Very poor. As a melee-only class for dps, they are the first to die as they lack the insane CC/Ultimates DKs can use to survive. However given you can get a ton of points as a healer in pvp means they can still do well, just not on the killing front.

Reply with your thoughts.
99% of players I've asked ingame agree with these assessments, and I lead a very effective guild of skilled pve players that have beaten the trials and vr dungeons dozens of times and saw time and time again how much better DKs are so I can't see how many could disagree though.

ZO: Please, make some attempt at balancing the game.
I don't want DKs nerfed. For some of their abilities, especially certain passives, there may be no other choice.. Something has to be done, preferably buffing the other classes and difficulty of group content to compensate.

I mainly want the other 3 classes buffed in the correct aspects as noted.

(edit: Slight update for the current state of the game post craglorn. Not much has changed.)

Rev Rielle

Maybe it's just me, but on principle I would rather see the ideal of; Paper < Scissors < Rock < Paper, than; Paper = Scissors = Rock, in relation to balance. Not saying either is what's in-game at the moment, but the former I would prefer they work towards. Maybe some of your suggestions would help realise that?

Your last point in the templar class disappoints me though: when did PvP become been first and foremost about the scoreboard? I think that's a very dangerous gauge to use in relation to any 'balance' discussion.

Axer

Rev Rielle wrote: »

Maybe it's just me, but on principle I would rather see the ideal of; Paper < Scissors < Rock < Paper, than; Paper = Scissors = Rock, in relation to balance. Not saying either is what's in-game at the moment, but the former I would prefer they work towards. Maybe some of your suggestions would help realise that?

Not entirely possible in a game where you can get a ton of skill lines that are the same as everyone else on 1 class.

Especially with class-only lines having huge synergy to said other lines.

But yes, having some classes better at certain roles then others is something I would really like, rather then just DK being best at nearly everything.

Khuul99

Seems like a pretty good overall view to me, thanks for the summary.

It would be nice to have some hints at least from the devs that they are actually working on these things.

I agree that I want a paper > rock > scissors mechanics. It might not be classes but builds in ESO case (which is actually better imo).
I've no issues that some builds will kill other builds almost 100% in 1vs1 but is pretty poor in group encounters and vice versa as long as one build isn't doing everything and that it shines in some circumstances but do badly in others all is well.

I do not want a system that makes every build have an equal chance in 1 vs1 or 2vs2 or 3v3 etc because it's just not possible without making the builds the exact same, just put other names on the race/class/skills and that is not very fun.. that is what you get in a FPS shooter.

However, as it is now there is a system that is something like this : DK >>>>> Others.

kalilkareem

Yeah. OP got a fairly accurate assessment. I would suggest drunken monkeys, but then again primitive primates under alcohol influence would generate random results. To get results this poor you gotta try HARD to create an unbalanced game.

KoooZ

Don't forget, DKs are also the best in bed.

ArRashid

I have a feeling that DKs are exactly where they need to be (aka good tank and dps).
Sorcs are also really good, depending on their builds. I'm not anywhere near VR10 so I can't tell accurately (broken computer and finals grouped up on me), but at around lvl 30 a 2h heavy-clad sorc I was 2manning a public dungeon with (as pyro DK) was really godlike (so were I)

(I charged in with flames blazing - Blockade+Pulsar, rooting enemies with talons, he charged in, knocked up synergy, placed his own flood, I popped synergy on that, everything was dead. His single target (boss) dps was even a lot higher, thanks to combination of Critical charge and beefed up damage from Critical Surge)

Can't say anything about templar, as I only played him for a few levels in one of the beta weekends, but since BY FAR most bots are templars, I guess the Biting Jabs spam is overly efficient way of dealing with anything. Might be very weak in VR though

NB.... is just a nightmare. 80% skills not working partially or completely, half passives bugged or just really really really useless.. I gave up on VR2. Since NB scaling is SO BAD you deal the exact same damage from around lvl 30 to VR2, you're screwed at 1vs3 fights.. and even 1vs2 takes forever. However, my guildie pushed really hard to get higher with his NB, and told me that Surprise attack, which has been critting from Shadowy Disguise for around 400 for last XX levels suddenly jumped threefold in VR4+ and he's now oneshotting casters from stealth.. though with stealth sometimes working on 3rd activation and such, it's hard to stay alive till they fix the bugs.
Other NB abilities are not worth using, since they are either bugged or just plain too weak, so he converted to light resto staff build with Shadowy disguise and Surprise attack combo to deal damage..


DK is not really THAT good at single target dps though - they only good single target spells are both melee range ones (Searing Strike and Lava Whip), all other skills are support spells or AoEs or DoTs, which can't be spammed to deal instant huge damage.. kinda making us DKs waste 3-4 slots for damage which templar or sorc can cover with a single ability..


Suggestions:
FIX broken skills
REWORK useless passives
BUFF UP weak classes
DO NOT NERF

NERFING KILLS MMORPGs...

alexj4596b14_ESO

Axer wrote: »

Sorcerer:

- Tanking: Meh. Should not be a great tank class. and imo is not. Fine. Certainly are the most survivable when running away tho in pvp, gota give them that.

Reply with your thoughts.
99% of players I've asked ingame agree with these assessments, and I lead a very effective guild of skilled pve players that have beaten every dungeon dozens of times and saw time and time again how much better DKs are so I can't see how many could disagree though.

ZO: Please, make some attempt at balancing the game.
I don't want DKs nerfed.
I want the other 3 classes buffed in the correct aspects as noted.

Ok so 1 thing, tanking scroc will not beat DK's overall because people are on this must have damage hike, another thing i have too say i am a scorc tank DOSE not use Stamina unless its situational. we only use stamina unless 1 were blocking a boss otherwise that's it, another thing we don't use it too tank adds for the most part, i can tank 6 adds at once as along as there all on me and not on anyone else in the group, because i can spam Volcanic Ruin they are ALL ways IN the air, or on the ground, if i were too cast negate magic even if i were in a pinch HAh i would just AoE dps them down. Please collect more data before you say things thank you.

Axer

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

Axer wrote: »

Sorcerer:

- Tanking: Meh. Should not be a great tank class. and imo is not. Fine. Certainly are the most survivable when running away tho in pvp, gota give them that.

Reply with your thoughts.
99% of players I've asked ingame agree with these assessments, and I lead a very effective guild of skilled pve players that have beaten every dungeon dozens of times and saw time and time again how much better DKs are so I can't see how many could disagree though.

ZO: Please, make some attempt at balancing the game.
I don't want DKs nerfed.
I want the other 3 classes buffed in the correct aspects as noted.

Ok so 1 thing, tanking scroc will not beat DK's overall because people are on this must have damage hike, another thing i have too say i am a scorc tank DOSE not use Stamina unless its situational. we only use stamina unless 1 were blocking a boss otherwise that's it, another thing we don't use it too tank adds for the most part, i can tank 6 adds at once as along as there all on me and not on anyone else in the group, because i can spam Volcanic Ruin they are ALL ways IN the air, or on the ground, if i were too cast negate magic even if i were in a pinch HAh i would just AoE dps them down. Please collect more data before you say things thank you.

Being the one spell you mentioned to make you a "good?" tank class is not class specific - it's a mage guild spell, Im quite sure I collected enough data. (And imo the worst possible thing you can do as a tank is constantly spread the enemies our all over the place with said spell)

And the mechanic you mention - not using stamina.. Is not exactly sorc specific either. Every single class has no stamina skills, they all use only magicka. Actaully thats not right because sorcerers do have one very good skill that uses stamina, while other classes do not at all. Another reason sorcs are poor tanks.

The one sorc specific ability you mentioned - negate magic. I also mentioned as one of the best CC abilities. CC and tanking are two entirely seperate things.

alexj4596b14_ESO

Axer wrote: »

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

Axer wrote: »

Sorcerer:

- Tanking: Meh. Should not be a great tank class. and imo is not. Fine. Certainly are the most survivable when running away tho in pvp, gota give them that.

Reply with your thoughts.
99% of players I've asked ingame agree with these assessments, and I lead a very effective guild of skilled pve players that have beaten every dungeon dozens of times and saw time and time again how much better DKs are so I can't see how many could disagree though.

ZO: Please, make some attempt at balancing the game.
I don't want DKs nerfed.
I want the other 3 classes buffed in the correct aspects as noted.

Ok so 1 thing, tanking scroc will not beat DK's overall because people are on this must have damage hike, another thing i have too say i am a scorc tank DOSE not use Stamina unless its situational. we only use stamina unless 1 were blocking a boss otherwise that's it, another thing we don't use it too tank adds for the most part, i can tank 6 adds at once as along as there all on me and not on anyone else in the group, because i can spam Volcanic Ruin they are ALL ways IN the air, or on the ground, if i were too cast negate magic even if i were in a pinch HAh i would just AoE dps them down. Please collect more data before you say things thank you.

Being the one spell you mentioned to make you a "good?" tank class is not class specific - it's a mage guild spell, Im quite sure I collected enough data. (And imo the worst possible thing you can do as a tank is constantly spread the enemies our all over the place with said spell)

And the mechanic you mention - not using stamina.. Is not exactly sorc specific either. Every single class has no stamina skills, they all use only magicka. Actaully thats not right because sorcerers do have one very good skill that uses stamina, while other classes do not at all. Another reason sorcs are poor tanks.

The one sorc specific ability you mentioned - negate magic. I also mentioned as one of the best CC abilities. CC and tanking are two entirely seperate things.

my point is, our class skill allow us too reduce our magic cost allot, NOW on top of that the mages guild increases our magic and COST 15% less on top of our Already increased reduction. They would not spread out at all, when that ability goes off they just at most move 3 meter away from there original spot, by that time iv already applied Lighting Flood and placed anther Ruin down too which will then make them repeat the same processes, THEN if need be i can use a real CC but normally they are dead by the time the 2nd round of volcanic ruin goes down. Now when it comes too stamina, most classes that use stamina for tanking. iv seen DK's ruining 2k stamina too tank, i run with food max is 1.5k that's it but normally im at 1.2k, i never run out unless something in the group goes wrong but then i have other ways too compliment that. Its our passives that allow for tanking.

by the time iv applied my food onto my toon, i have soft caped magic and im just 300 point soft caped of my stamina, my regins will all almost be soft caped, Now if im not mistaken Most people use the sword taunt because they are stacking stamina and for the debuff, i'm doing the vary Opposite. Scorc tanks Use high Regins, Strategic ability use and constant adapting too what is going on around them, DK's are just brick walls My point im trying too make is Scorc's IF they know what they are doing are going too tank vary well, given the right stat setups and such.

http://esohead.com/calculator/skills#mMkXyyo0z0W0mwE8y1ar8AIQb8A4rK8NUmU8NUmu8Nikc8fXhg8NiaQ8A4wg8LxkS8NUmu8Nikc8L7JrkLu6cdoQr6MdoQC6MdoQF6MdoQJ6MdoQK8y7HLR3a6rR3b6rR3r6MfQE16MfQE36MfQlr6MfQlu6MfQlI8H7Drzf26rzwM6Lzwm6LbHm6MNieh6MNieA6MNieT6MNiey8J7JLziO6rziX6MNUIz6MNUIN8K7JLkg6Lzuu6LzuI6Lzuj6rzun6MANRQ6MANRU6MANRZ8O7srdeB6rdeD6rdeF6zAZqS6MA3FN6MA3FA6MA3FL6MA4Cb8P7sLdYf6zLp4d6cLncp6cLncn6zLncy6zLyjz837crw33847pzxLCe6cxLDm6cxLDo6cxLDs8zz7068zf7zzNbo8zu7zzHfYE6zHfZd8zG7zzHQ3F8zI7zzJIoX6zJIkL8zN7zzJZcY8zA7zzKpUN8zL7zzK4EX

Axer wrote: »

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

Axer wrote: »

steven.flemingub17_ESO

Templar:
- AOE DPS: Poor. Biting jabs is aoe, however it only does half damage to non primary targets, making it vastly inferior to what DKs can deliver. Even with 0 synergy at all, spamming impulse tends to do better as it covers more area and activates faster (Instant vs 1.1 seconds channel).

You did not mention Solar Barrage, which is the aoe instant cast morph of solar flare. However it's also pretty lame from my experience using it so far. You lose a ton of the single target damage to apply a tiny bit to mobs around you when you switch; it's not cost efficient when compared to something like impulse (even with restoring light passive); and since it cannot stack it's buff effect with itself, it's always dependent on having a different aoe skill slotted to use with it, which means it's not a good spam aoe ability. If they added a cc\knockback with it I think it would actually be a pretty decent aoe ability though.

Ruddertail

I still don't understand why DKs are better at using the destruction staff than sorcerers. Sure, we got Critical Surge so we can't die while doing impulse spam, but in sheer damage, it's bizarre that the "knight" class is better than the main magic-using class at using magical staves.

Perhaps the DK abilities shouldn't apply to the staff, only their own fire spells.

Axer

steven.flemingub17_ESO wrote: »

Templar:
- AOE DPS: Poor. Biting jabs is aoe, however it only does half damage to non primary targets, making it vastly inferior to what DKs can deliver. Even with 0 synergy at all, spamming impulse tends to do better as it covers more area and activates faster (Instant vs 1.1 seconds channel).

You did not mention Solar Barrage, which is the aoe instant cast morph of solar flare. However it's also pretty lame from my experience using it so far. You lose a ton of the single target damage to apply a tiny bit to mobs around you when you switch; it's not cost efficient when compared to something like impulse (even with restoring light passive); and since it cannot stack it's buff effect with itself, it's always dependent on having a different aoe skill slotted to use with it, which means it's not a good spam aoe ability. If they added a cc\knockback with it I think it would actually be a pretty decent aoe ability though.

Yea not mentioned on purpose. As it's horribly low dps and all around a terrible skill, at base and both morphs.

steven.flemingub17_ESO

I still don't understand why DKs are better at using the destruction staff than sorcerers. Sure, we got Critical Surge so we can't die while doing impulse spam, but in sheer damage, it's bizarre that the "knight" class is better than the main magic-using class at using magical staves.

Perhaps the DK abilities shouldn't apply to the staff, only their own fire spells.

I agree that DK's have great passives that help with fire damage aoe. Sorcs only have 1 passive that appears to help with lightning damage, and another one that gives a chance for instant disintegrate, but they must first be at very low health, which in my view is less optimal than continuous dot fire damage. Another thing is that Volcanic Rune, probably the best aoe in the game, is fire based, giving DK's a big advantage over other classes using it due to their passives.

Rather than see DK's aoe nerfed however, I'd rather see the other classes and their specific mechanics and themes brought up. I totally agree with the OP that NB's are seriously gimped compared to other classes, both in terms of aoe and survivability. If their single target dps were made much stronger and faster and their survivability brought up however, then they can skip being strong in aoe skills like DK. If Templars aoe dps and self healing were brought up a bit and made much more majicka efficient, they could also be a contender in tackling content. If sorcs lightning passive always gave a chance to disintegrate instead of waiting for low health they might also come into the realm of DK.

Barring massive overhaul to make everyone like a DK, I think some tweaks to improve the other classes would be a better first approach.

Axer

And the major patch results from today:

DK:
Insanely buffed. Massive increase to their ability to generate ultimate (Complete opposite what hte notes said too, to add insult to injury).

Templars:
MASSIVELY nerfed (also not in patch notes):
- Biting Jabs DPS nerfed around 40% by adding a insane delay at the end that prevent syou from DOING ANYTHING. It like breaks your character if you use it is now. And it was our ONLY choice for dps. The idea of a DPS templar is now 100% impossible. We litterally can't do even 1/5th of what a DK does now, if we use class skills, its stupid.

Master ritualist nerfed : Our one nice feature of a fast rez (which only helped bad players a lot) benefit cut in HALF.

Shield bash nerf affected templar tanks a lot more then DKs due to the fact it was one of our only choices for dps. None viable remain for a sword n board templar.

NB:
Overall nerfed too. (To already the worst class)

Sorc:
No real changes, minor fixes that may tiny bit improve effeciently, but no game balance change.

Good job ZO.
Really. Great jorb.

Now we can REALLY be justified that my whole guild is rerolling as DKs. I mean why have multiple classes anyways? too confusing amiright?

Travail

The problem is, how do you fix the DK?

Nerfing the class into the ground isn't the answer. There are DK's out there soloing veteran rank dungeons with Talons... and other DK's soloing VR dungeons without Talons. Does Talons need more nerfs? It's obviously not a necessary component of broken DK builds.

I could say the same about Inhale. I could also say the same about Green Dragon's Blood. Molten Weapons. Even the Standard isn't a necessary component of these broken builds, and it's #1 on many players' hit lists.

Do you nerf every skill they have? Because currently there are a ton of DK skills that, when used in various combinations, allow for the DK to solo content not meant for soloing. It's a tough question to answer. I'd hate to be in the shoes of the developers, because honestly I think they need to redesign some of these abilities from the ground up; and that's usually an even less popular choice than flat nerfs.

-Travail.

kalilkareem

Luls. I havent been able to play with the patch yet. But I have a feeling that my biting jabs templar aint gonna like this...

Armitas

I keep hearing about this 1k single target DK dps build. What or where can I find this build?(@ me in reply)

Wifeaggro13

I stopped reading at DK's put out over 1 k ST DPS. sure we have some good abilities. but about the best ST Sustained DPS is templar at 1.4 k . ive not seen a DK put out anything over 600 to 700 ST sustained.
As far as out living Mobs , yes we are the best at out living them.

Axer

kalilkareem wrote: »

Luls. I havent been able to play with the patch yet. But I have a feeling that my biting jabs templar aint gonna like this...

Sorry but no, your character isn't going to be magically immune to gamechanges.

It got severely nerfed. Roughly 30-40% less dps now and leaves you insanely vulnerable at the end, unable to do anything, not even a light attack after, further lowering dps. Plain broken.

re:
Armitas, there are at on of ways to do that now.
Most effect postive patch is probably:
Hundings Rage set (around +24% weapon) damage.
Use:
Destro flame - Crushing Shock
Lava whip
Inner Light
Evil hunter
Maybe equilibirum to help sustain it
Not hard. Guildie can put out around 1200+ doing this. Maybe a ton more post patch once V12.

Maybe I should post his screenshot of 12 THOUSAND dps aoe.. Does ZO need even more help on understading how insanely far ahead DKs are?

Axer

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

I stopped reading at DK's put out over 1 k ST DPS. sure we have some good abilities. but about the best ST Sustained DPS is templar at 1.4 k . ive not seen a DK put out anything over 600 to 700 ST sustained.
As far as out living Mobs , yes we are the best at out living them.

So you run with poor DKs? Can't believe some simple facts?

And no, templars can not do that ever. Post a screenshot. Even BURSTING 1.4 with spear vs 2-3 mobs was insanely difficult.

Prepatch a templar could do 700-800 with biting jabs + a light attack in between with a top notch weapon, and some luck, as it relied heavily on random procs and crits, which templars just can't at high rates like other classes (Biting jabs auto crits at low health, but otherwise cant get a super high crit rate) . Post patch they can't do *** at all anymore. Dropped to maybe 350 with biting jabs, nothing else does anything single target.

The reason for this was and remain very simple:

Biting jabs is extremely hard to boost. It's spell dmg only, and spell crit. The only way to up spell dmg to any decent degree was +spell dmg jewlery. It can not proc strong effects like evil hunter.

While a DK..
No problem. Evil hunter procs on nearly everything they use. Lava whip? yep. And all destro staff skills, along with there huge synergy, it has a massive impact on dps. And destro staff spells are easier to boost being weapon damage, with so many ways to buff it. (Molten weps, hundings rage, war horn, etc.)

Post patch, a templar will do more dps using destro now too.. But are just plain straight inferior at it due to no synergy.

Armitas

Axer wrote: »

re:
Armitas, there are at on of ways to do that now.
Most effect postive patch is probably:
Hundings Rage set (around +24% weapon) damage.
Use:
Destro flame - Crushing Shock
Lava whip
Inner Light
Evil hunter
Maybe equilibirum to help sustain it
Not hard. Guildie can put out around 1200+ doing this. Maybe a ton more post patch once V12.

This isn't really a DK build. It's only got 1 DK skill in it (minus the flame part). What does it do on non daedric enemies?

Axer

Armitas wrote: »

Axer wrote: »

re:
Armitas, there are at on of ways to do that now.
Most effect postive patch is probably:
Hundings Rage set (around +24% weapon) damage.
Use:
Destro flame - Crushing Shock
Lava whip
Inner Light
Evil hunter
Maybe equilibirum to help sustain it
Not hard. Guildie can put out around 1200+ doing this. Maybe a ton more post patch once V12.

This isn't really a DK build. It's only got 1 DK skill in it. What does it do on non daedric enemies?

The same?
All difficult enemies in the entire game are daedric or undead, which evil hunter works on.

And they are ALL dk skills, because DKs get massive synegy with all flame staff skills, thus they are DK skills - as they rely on their passives to do this kind of dps.

And even if it had ZERO dk class skills, its still a DK build dude. Other classes cant do it with anywhere near the degree of effective as enemies just wont die fast enough, and they just wont build ultimate fast enough

Didnt mention standard, but that a pretty sillly obvious one. So 2 DK skills, more then enough.

Vorkk8383

Hi. I'm a Templar. Can any other class hold me in their arms....HOLD ME!

Erock25

Travail wrote: »

The problem is, how do you fix the DK?

Nerfing the class into the ground isn't the answer. There are DK's out there soloing veteran rank dungeons with Talons... and other DK's soloing VR dungeons without Talons. Does Talons need more nerfs? It's obviously not a necessary component of broken DK builds.

I could say the same about Inhale. I could also say the same about Green Dragon's Blood. Molten Weapons. Even the Standard isn't a necessary component of these broken builds, and it's #1 on many players' hit lists.

Do you nerf every skill they have? Because currently there are a ton of DK skills that, when used in various combinations, allow for the DK to solo content not meant for soloing. It's a tough question to answer. I'd hate to be in the shoes of the developers, because honestly I think they need to redesign some of these abilities from the ground up; and that's usually an even less popular choice than flat nerfs.

-Travail.

The simple way to fix DK is to nerf Battle Roar passive and both Magma Armor and their Standard ultimates.

Wifeaggro13

Axer wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

I stopped reading at DK's put out over 1 k ST DPS. sure we have some good abilities. but about the best ST Sustained DPS is templar at 1.4 k . ive not seen a DK put out anything over 600 to 700 ST sustained.
As far as out living Mobs , yes we are the best at out living them.

So you run with poor DKs? Can't believe some simple facts?

And no, templars can not do that ever. Post a screenshot. Even BURSTING 1.4 with spear vs 2-3 mobs was insanely difficult.

Prepatch a templar could do 700-800 with biting jabs + a light attack in between with a top notch weapon, and some luck, as it relied heavily on random procs and crits, which templars just can't at high rates like other classes (Biting jabs auto crits at low health, but otherwise cant get a super high crit rate) . Post patch they can't do *** at all anymore. Dropped to maybe 350 with biting jabs, nothing else does anything single target.

The reason for this was and remain very simple:

Biting jabs is extremely hard to boost. It's spell dmg only, and spell crit. The only way to up spell dmg to any decent degree was +spell dmg jewlery. It can not proc strong effects like evil hunter.

While a DK..
No problem. Evil hunter procs on nearly everything they use. Lava whip? yep. And all destro staff skills, along with there huge synergy, it has a massive impact on dps. And destro staff spells are easier to boost being weapon damage, with so many ways to buff it. (Molten weps, hundings rage, war horn, etc.)

Post patch, a templar will do more dps using destro now too.. But are just plain straight inferior at it due to no synergy.

Ya pretty stupid design i agree. i dont use a destro staff or light armor . its plainly simple that build is absloutely broken. I gree DK in light armor using the resto Destro combo is over powered.
Melee in general is F ing horrible . as far as the sets go hundings is a friggin cheap ass cop out by the development team . the know melee was in a crap state and chose to give melee a 20% increase through a set then go and fix the broken Melee/Stamina system. All it really did is make Destro staffs way more viable then they already were.
Evil hunter works for every class its a fighters guild ability. and molten armaments needs to be cast every 6 seconds to work properly. and i dis agree i dont run with bad DK's. i personaly dint use the light armor specs because i built my self a traditional tank. And i recognize the complete and total over powered build that is the DK in light Armor spamming AOE's buffing himself with spiked armor and dropping banners over and over and over thats why the DPS is so high. Lava whip is the only DD ability a DK has so i would expect it to be powerful. espically since all melee abilities suck ass.
As for the templar well in all honesty if your crying that you cant keep up with the DPS of a DK or sorc . neither can heal as well as you. but i do recognize some DK builds are simply over powered. But dont roll the friggin main healer and get pissed because you cant DPS But the templar 1.4 k ST dps is real . By far if any class has the right to be pissed right now its the nightblade. Im gonna start a why cant a DK be a main healer thread. And perosnaly templar makes a way better tank why dont you try that.Or you could use the exact same set up as that guy level those abilities and use your ST DD spell . it will be pretty damn close.

Erock25

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

But dont roll the friggin main healer and get pissed because you cant DPS But the templar 1.4 k ST dps is real .

In burst or sustained on a boss? Sorry but that number is so high I can't take anything you say seriously until you give proof.

Jeremy_gelber_ESO

i did 1.4k damage on my templar. i jumped off a cliff. oh did i forget to mention it was to myself?

"But dont roll the friggin main healer and get pissed because you cant DPS But the templar 1.4 k ST dps is real ."

and the main tank should be about damage mitigation not output. you were saying something?

Wifeaggro13

Erock25 wrote: »

Travail wrote: »

The problem is, how do you fix the DK?

Nerfing the class into the ground isn't the answer. There are DK's out there soloing veteran rank dungeons with Talons... and other DK's soloing VR dungeons without Talons. Does Talons need more nerfs? It's obviously not a necessary component of broken DK builds.

I could say the same about Inhale. I could also say the same about Green Dragon's Blood. Molten Weapons. Even the Standard isn't a necessary component of these broken builds, and it's #1 on many players' hit lists.

Do you nerf every skill they have? Because currently there are a ton of DK skills that, when used in various combinations, allow for the DK to solo content not meant for soloing. It's a tough question to answer. I'd hate to be in the shoes of the developers, because honestly I think they need to redesign some of these abilities from the ground up; and that's usually an even less popular choice than flat nerfs.

-Travail.

The simple way to fix DK is to nerf Battle Roar passive and both Magma Armor and their Standard ultimates.

Jeremy_gelber_ESO wrote: »

i did 1.4k damage on my templar. i jumped off a cliff. oh did i forget to mention it was to myself?

"But dont roll the friggin main healer and get pissed because you cant DPS But the templar 1.4 k ST dps is real ."

and the main tank should be about damage mitigation not output. you were saying something?

dont get me wrong i am 100% in agreement DK should not be running around in light armor DPsing nor do i think we should have the benefits of light armor and be able to heal ourselves while having maxed armor in light.

Grim13

"Play your way as a DK"

Armitas

Axer wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Axer wrote: »

re:
Armitas, there are at on of ways to do that now.
Most effect postive patch is probably:
Hundings Rage set (around +24% weapon) damage.
Use:
Destro flame - Crushing Shock
Lava whip
Inner Light
Evil hunter
Maybe equilibirum to help sustain it
Not hard. Guildie can put out around 1200+ doing this. Maybe a ton more post patch once V12.

This isn't really a DK build. It's only got 1 DK skill in it. What does it do on non daedric enemies?

The same?
All difficult enemies in the entire game are daedric or undead, which evil hunter works on.

And they are ALL dk skills, because DKs get massive synegy with all flame staff skills, thus they are DK skills - as they rely on their passives to do this kind of dps.

And even if it had ZERO dk class skills, its still a DK build dude. Other classes cant do it with anywhere near the degree of effective as enemies just wont die fast enough, and they just wont build ultimate fast enough

Didnt mention standard, but that a pretty sillly obvious one. So 2 DK skills, more then enough.

The synergy that the DK provides is really just 2 things. 11 spell power for fire attacks and 66% more damage on the effect "burning". It is an advantage but it is not massive.

The problem with quoting such a high number like 1200 single target dps or in another case 1400 dps is that no one knows the context, group buffs, enemy type, ultimates etc. No one is expecting the extraordinary caveat of evil hunter. Evil hunter will skew anyones dps numbers. Honestly the primary source of the inflated dps in this build is in fact evil hunter which is without class. We need to start using universal dps numbers that anyone can immediately comprehend. That means parses on mammoths. Mammoths are 100% repeatable, sustainable, with no external variables.