Public Dungeons ≠ Delves

Korozenn

Hi ZeniMax,

As I've ventured through Tamriel and come across many new players playing on the server, I've noticed many new players having problems getting their bearings in-game at first because there is not a clear differentiation between Public Dungeons and Delves that should be corrected.

First thing's first, though:

Mundus, Not Oblivion
I noticed this since launch and have been reporting it weekly ever since. I'm pretty sure we don't live in Oblivion after we escape from The Wailing Prison (lol). When you open the Map > Locations, 'Oblivion' should be reading Mundus like it did back in Beta. Hope you guys get around to fixing that soon so new players to Elder Scrolls in general don't get confused.

Public Dungeons ≠ Delves
Public Dungeons are not represented well-enough in how they differentiate with delves until you enter them and open up your map or pull out your Achievements in the Journal to see if it falls under the "Public Dungeons" category. Each of them are marked with a single torch on the map and nothing more. By comparison, Group Dungeons are marked "Dungeon:[Name]" and have a torch with a plus sign next to it. My idea here is to call group dungeons "Group Dungeon: [Name]" and Public Dungeons...well..."Public Dungeon: [Name]". It would also help to use a different icon to represent them on the map better. This helps avoid confusion in the future for lower-level players that simply think these dungeons are solo affairs when they are anything but.

Enodoc

I concur to both of these points. In fact, I made the same point about Public Dungeons and Delves myself back in April. Public Dungeons should have two torches in their icon, where Delves should only have one . This icon exists in the data files, but is not being used correctly.
Regarding the Mundus/Oblivion map, nether of those names is technically accurate, as that map includes both Coldharbour (a plane of Oblivion) and Tamriel (a part of Nirn, in Mundus). The only accurate name for that map would be Aurbis.

esoone

Public dungeon has public dungeon on it on the map, maybe the should add neonletters? Delve doesnt have public dungeon on it.

Moonraker

It is sightly complicated by the fact that public dungeons are divided between:

1. Public solo dungeon - Can be completed solo (groups of 2-3-4 NPCs etc.)
2. Public group dungeon - In each zone you have at least one public dungeon which is a step up in difficulty and usually requires help from one or more others to really be achievable at level (groups of 5-6 NPCs harder boss) especially with fast respawn rates.
3. Group instanced dungeons.

I don't know which is which with 1. & 2. until I poke my head in and see the first pack. The Group ones are marked with the + sign which at least make it more obvious.

They could just be brave and stick to the name they like to use when talking about them as a 'Delve' with it's own marker for type 1. which are generally truly solo.

ThePonzzz

Enodoc explained it well. It would be nice if another icon was used, because at like level, you really can't do them solo.

Sakiri

Unless youre a well geared tank dk.

Enodoc

Moonraker wrote: »

1. Public solo dungeon - Can be completed solo (groups of 2-3-4 NPCs etc.)
2. Public group dungeon - In each zone you have at least one public dungeon which is a step up in difficulty and usually requires help from one or more others to really be achievable at level (groups of 5-6 NPCs harder boss) especially with fast respawn rates.
3. Group instanced dungeons.

I don't know which is which with 1. & 2. until I poke my head in and see the first pack.

They could just be brave and stick to the name they like to use when talking about them as a 'Delve' with it's own marker for type 1. which are generally truly solo.

Yeah, that is exactly the issue. Your #1 are the Delves, your #2 are the Public Dungeons. The devs are referring to them differently out of the game, so there should be an in-game distinction as well.

esoone wrote: »

Public dungeon has public dungeon on it on the map, maube the should ass neonletters? Delve doesnt have public dungeon on it.

I'm not sure what you mean. There is absolutely no distinction on the map between Public Dungeons and Delves. That is the issue we are trying to see fixed.

Korozenn

Enodoc wrote: »

I concur to both of these points. In fact, I made the same point about Public Dungeons and Delves myself back in April. Public Dungeons should have two torches in their icon, where Delves should only have one . This icon exists in the data files, but is not being used correctly.
Regarding the Mundus/Oblivion map, nether of those names is technically accurate, as that map includes both Coldharbour (a plane of Oblivion) and Tamriel (a part of Nirn, in Mundus). The only accurate name for that map would be Aurbis.

Agreed, @Enodoc‌

Public Dungeons should be using the like the ones shown in your previous post. I also overlooked the fact that Coldharbour was shown along with Tamriel on that map, so you would also be right about it being Aurbis, not Nirn, Mundus, or Oblivion.

Hoping that these issues get fixed as I've seen a lot of newer players get especially confused when I try to explain to them why they're constantly dying in these Public Dungeons. The issue here is that people now coming into the game treats them all as delves (just bigger versions of them) when that's simply not the case, and the people on the Ebonheart Pact and Daggerfall Covenant have it the worst due to the proximity of these harder dungeons to the first town you're dumped off into, which makes people think consequently that these are the "newbie" dungeons.

They're absolutely not. Especially when it comes to Crow's Wood, you just can't possibly hope to solo everything in that dungeon at Lv. 4-6. It's just not possible to take on that many mobs at such a low-level when you're new to the game and still learning its mechanics, and there's not enough people running through these dungeons (you have more bots than people in them) to make them viable from early levels, even for us more experienced players.

Sakiri wrote: »

Unless youre a well geared tank dk.

I'd like to see someone completely new to The Elder Scrolls Online solo Crow's Wood as a well-geared, Lv. 5-8 tank DK (5 if you didn't bother with starter islands, 8 if you did). And, by 'solo', I mean everything from the group challenge boss as well as the five elites in the dungeon as well as the hordes of 5-6 mobs all gathered up next to each other (with over 10+ tending to be agro'd on you at once) in there.

I can tell you for sure that there ain't no way that's happening...

You can be as well-geared as possible for that level, but if you lack the skill to make it through that dungeon, then it just isn't possible. Then, when it comes to the hordes of mobs gathered around elites, I'd personally love to see someone successfully taking down those elites without dying (I'd love to see someone try to solo a run at Level 5 with a well-geared tank DK without dying). Even if you are skilled enough for it, there's no way you'll be tanking enough to absorb that much DPS from groups of 4-10 mobs and elites in the dungeon.

That's just absurd.

ZeniMax needs to step back and look at ways they can scale Public Dungeons depending on someone's level as well as how many people are in those dungeons (with a limit to how many players can be in each PD instance). That way, we get an appropriate amount of mobs spawning depending on how active or inactive those dungeons are. I shouldn't have to wait for the most active time of day to make those dungeons be even remotely possible to complete.

Also, I'm sorry that not everyone has a well-geared tank DK that can solo these types of dungeons. Give us a break with how you're trying to tell us to play the game, please. Once you bring up the argument that "x class and y type of build can take z anytime" you immediately lose validity with your argument because the basis of the game is being able to "play as you want" as other Elder Scrolls games have stressed in the past, with an almost infinitesimal number of builds you can think up of in-game. The game is supposed to have content that is well-geared towards 'multiple varieties' of builds in the game...not just a small handful.

The difficulty and ridiculous boss spawn timers in Public Dungeons are but two of several design flaws that Veteran players have already been pointing out. ZeniMax needs to address these issues as they're major concerns for people who are already in end-game.

esoone

Enodoc wrote: »

Moonraker wrote: »

1. Public solo dungeon - Can be completed solo (groups of 2-3-4 NPCs etc.)
2. Public group dungeon - In each zone you have at least one public dungeon which is a step up in difficulty and usually requires help from one or more others to really be achievable at level (groups of 5-6 NPCs harder boss) especially with fast respawn rates.
3. Group instanced dungeons.

I don't know which is which with 1. & 2. until I poke my head in and see the first pack.

They could just be brave and stick to the name they like to use when talking about them as a 'Delve' with it's own marker for type 1. which are generally truly solo.

Yeah, that is exactly the issue. Your #1 are the Delves, your #2 are the Public Dungeons. The devs are referring to them differently out of the game, so there should be an in-game distinction as well.

esoone wrote: »

Public dungeon has public dungeon on it on the map, maube the should ass neonletters? Delve doesnt have public dungeon on it.

I'm not sure what you mean. There is absolutely no distinction on the map between Public Dungeons and Delves. That is the issue we are trying to see fixed.

Hold mouse over icon on map and read.

Korozenn

esoone wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Moonraker wrote: »

1. Public solo dungeon - Can be completed solo (groups of 2-3-4 NPCs etc.)
2. Public group dungeon - In each zone you have at least one public dungeon which is a step up in difficulty and usually requires help from one or more others to really be achievable at level (groups of 5-6 NPCs harder boss) especially with fast respawn rates.
3. Group instanced dungeons.

I don't know which is which with 1. & 2. until I poke my head in and see the first pack.

They could just be brave and stick to the name they like to use when talking about them as a 'Delve' with it's own marker for type 1. which are generally truly solo.

Yeah, that is exactly the issue. Your #1 are the Delves, your #2 are the Public Dungeons. The devs are referring to them differently out of the game, so there should be an in-game distinction as well.

esoone wrote: »

Public dungeon has public dungeon on it on the map, maube the should ass neonletters? Delve doesnt have public dungeon on it.

I'm not sure what you mean. There is absolutely no distinction on the map between Public Dungeons and Delves. That is the issue we are trying to see fixed.

Hold mouse over icon on map and read.

Think you got the dungeons mixed up here...

Public Dungeons. Not Group Dungeons.

Public Dungeons have no indication that they are 'actual' dungeons in the game like Group Dungeons do. They have the same exact indicator as Delves and no differentiation whatsoever within their naming unless you use an Add-On like Skyshards that tells you what type of dungeon the Skyshard can be found in. That functionality is from an add-on...not the vanilla user-interface.

Enodoc

Looks like this has been addressed with 1.1.2, thanks @ohmygodie for pointing it out in my other thread. So now we should have:
Delve
Public Dungeon
Group Dungeon
Trial

Personally I think Group Dungeon shouldn't have been changed and Public Dungeon should be the crossed torches, to avoid confusion, but overall I'm not really complaining.

Shaun98ca2

But I LIKED for group dungeons and

should have been for the public dungeon.

But I guess it makes sense for the trials so BLEH.

Oluthon

Enodoc wrote: »

Regarding the Mundus/Oblivion map, nether of those names is technically accurate, as that map includes both Coldharbour (a plane of Oblivion) and Tamriel (a part of Nirn, in Mundus). The only accurate name for that map would be Aurbis.

If you look, it appears that Coldharbour is about 1/17th of the "Obvlivion" map's circumference. Perhaps this is an indication of the other Realms being implemented, thus being "Oblivion", not simply a single plane. As for the "Tamriel" map: maybe they will simply put in more map headings on the right for places like Yokuda, Akavir, Pyandonea, and Atmora. And anyway, they would be so far away from Tamriel that it would make sense to simply give them their own maps. On a side note, Yokuda could be some kind of underwater zone...*cough*Vashj'ir*cough*...

Edit: After further thought, they could also simply rename the map to whatever they want to at a later time, which would be relatively easy.

MeowGinger

Wait, what? Excluding Craglorn, I thought there were 3 types of "dungeons." Maybe I misunderstand, but what you seem to be calling public dungeons are actually considered "solo dungeons" (they should show up under exploration achievements, the single torch and nothing else). The public dungeons are the ones you are calling group dungeons (have a plus sign; called public dungeons in game), because while they can be soloed at-level they are intended for a duo or trio. The ones that are actually called group dungeons (in game) are the crossed torches.

I can't speak for the map name... I haven't actually noticed that.

Dominoid

MeowGinger wrote: »

Wait, what? Excluding Craglorn, I thought there were 3 types of "dungeons." Maybe I misunderstand, but what you seem to be calling public dungeons are actually considered "solo dungeons" (they should show up under exploration achievements, the single torch and nothing else). The public dungeons are the ones you are calling group dungeons (have a plus sign; called public dungeons in game), because while they can be soloed at-level they are intended for a duo or trio. The ones that are actually called group dungeons (in game) are the crossed torches.

I can't speak for the map name... I haven't actually noticed that.

The bulk of this post is from May before they had an icon change.

Korozenn

Dominoid wrote: »

MeowGinger wrote: »

Wait, what? Excluding Craglorn, I thought there were 3 types of "dungeons." Maybe I misunderstand, but what you seem to be calling public dungeons are actually considered "solo dungeons" (they should show up under exploration achievements, the single torch and nothing else). The public dungeons are the ones you are calling group dungeons (have a plus sign; called public dungeons in game), because while they can be soloed at-level they are intended for a duo or trio. The ones that are actually called group dungeons (in game) are the crossed torches.

I can't speak for the map name... I haven't actually noticed that.

The bulk of this post is from May before they had an icon change.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

whvice

Somebody give him the "Clueless" title