Ban Players that get caught buying from gold farmers

Chryos

(Dont know where else to put this thread)

Simply put, make an official statement or press release. If you get caught buying gold or conducting transfers with botters your account will be banned. If that isnt already the policy. (this is more like a reminder for those that dont read it)

Once the rules are laid down, enforce them by having GM's in game patrolling wayshrines or whereever the botters hang out (I see them hang out in wayshrines in The Rift, for example.

Maybe this will change the attitudes of people.

Loxy37

This will never happen! Let's analyse. Hghgghfg earns gold from botting and then legit trades it to Joe the nord (His partner in crime, the front man or banker) with a legit trade of a motif (pays 100k) then Joe the silly nord, gives the gold to Fred the cheater for 1 soul gem! Fred had just been to CheatersAH and bought 100k for 8 American Dollars.

This wouldn't trigger any alarms because it seems like a legit trades.

Now scenario 2. Joe the nord is looking to buy high level tempers with gold from his bot friend, Hghgghfg. He advertises that he WTB high level tempers, all you can sell for 3k each. You see it and need the gold so you sell Joe the tempers. Under your system, you are now a gold buyer because you swapped him 10 tempers for 30k! Joe goes on to sell the tempers for the amazing sales price of 3$ each on CheatersAH!

Edit: forgot to add. If you mean ban them for buying from those sites then how the hek would they know that anyone is buying from those sites? Its not sent via mail as far as I know but via trades and I'm sure the bots are clever enough to disguise their trades via a front man or some other means of money washing!

tl;dr: innocents will be caught in the cross fire!

Nox_Aeterna

I have to agree with the post above , i bet we will not get GMs for this.

And while i agree with people being banned for dealing with gold sellers , proving it is usually not easy at all. If it were so simple to just trace the items/gold while making sure of this and banning people , this would not be a problem in all MMOs.

nerevarine1138

They already do?

It's spelled out in the ToS. Not sure why you think people wouldn't get banned.

Guppet

Say I don't like you and give your name to a gold site to send gold to. Hmm I just got you permanently banned, cos I don't like you.

Sounds like a really clever plan you have there chief.

Nox_Aeterna

Guppet wrote: »

Say I don't like you and give your name to a gold site to send gold to. Hmm I just got you permanently banned, cos I don't like you.

Sounds like a really clever plan you have there chief.

Hahaha , that is an interesting point.

Gold sellers could now sell a ban service hahaha.

Xithian

In most games the trail is kept track of behind the scenes. The example above of trading gold for items is not correct, in that it would throw up flags. When hunting down goldsellers and their goods it's a matter of following the trade trail. It's not a simple thing, and companies prefer to do bannings of that nature in waves for maximum return on time spent.

If they ban one at a time they are wasting time and alerting goldsellers early that they need to change how they operate. Mass bannings happen in many games because they catch the most cheaters at once with little warning.

wrlifeboil

Chryos wrote: »

(Dont know where else to put this thread.)

Simply put, make an official statement or press release. If you get caught buying gold or conducting transfers with botters your account will be banned. If that isnt already the policy.

Once the rules are laid down, enforce them by having GM's in game patrolling wayshrines or whereever the botters hang out (I see them hang out in wayshrines in The Rift, for example.

Maybe this will change the attitudes of people.

Never works because everyone is happy with the system.

Imagine you have lots of spending money in real life (like a few do). You find that you need gold. So you buy another copy of the game for $40. You get in game and buy 500k gold from a gold seller. Then you use that gold to buy up all the items that you listed at outrageous prices in the guild store on your first account, like 1k gold for a stack of cotton. If you have friends you can trust, you buy their outrageously priced items in the guild store too and have them kickback half the gold to you. If you need gold again, rinse and repeat until ZOS bans your $40 account.

You get gold, ZOS gets $40 for the second account, gold seller makes proft. Everyone is happy.

Chryos

Well people seem like they need reminding. A little research into a players in game history should be able to help the GMs figure out whether its justified. People just dont get blindly banned because someone makes a false report. If they do, then the GMs need to be fired for not doing they're job.

Just because I say you did something, I'm sure for the most part, it's looked into. Anyone who is remotely smart does a little checking into stuff before they execute an action.

Do I need to further elaborate, or can we use some common sense in figuring out what I mean?

nerevarine1138

wrlifeboil wrote: »

Chryos wrote: »

(Dont know where else to put this thread.)

Simply put, make an official statement or press release. If you get caught buying gold or conducting transfers with botters your account will be banned. If that isnt already the policy.

Once the rules are laid down, enforce them by having GM's in game patrolling wayshrines or whereever the botters hang out (I see them hang out in wayshrines in The Rift, for example.

Maybe this will change the attitudes of people.

Never works because everyone is happy with the system.

Imagine you have lots of spending money in real life (like a few do). You find that you need gold. So you buy another copy of the game for $40. You get in game and buy 500k gold from a gold seller. Then you use that gold to buy up all the items that you listed at outrageous prices in the guild store on your first account, like 1k gold for a stack of cotton. If you have friends you can trust, you buy their outrageously priced items in the guild store too and have them kickback half the gold to you. If you need gold again, rinse and repeat until ZOS bans your $40 account.

You get gold, ZOS gets $40 for the second account, gold seller makes proft. Everyone is happy.

Remove the tinfoil hat, please.

Developers lose a ton of money due to gold-sellers. Period.

Chryos

They do tho, need to spend some money on hiring smart people to do this. Cyber forensics grads would be a start. But they would have to be paid, of course.

Chryos

"Developers lose a ton of money due to gold-sellers. Period."

Not only that, they reverse engineer and hack the game. Which is the number one reason for lag. My only other solution is to ban IPs from China or any other geographic region where there is alot of violators. It may not be fair for some, but it helps the majority.

It wont be long before we make it so difficult for them, they might find it more troubl than it's worth, especially when the next new mmo comes out. Hopefully they move on.

And for those who say, this wont work, or that wont work, my advice is this, get a new outlook on life because "i cant, you can't" never solved anything.

Chryos

By the way, good morning everyone, hope your day is a great one!

DO NOT FORGET TO CALL YOUR MOTHER!!!!

wrlifeboil

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

wrlifeboil wrote: »

Chryos wrote: »

(Dont know where else to put this thread.)

Simply put, make an official statement or press release. If you get caught buying gold or conducting transfers with botters your account will be banned. If that isnt already the policy.

Once the rules are laid down, enforce them by having GM's in game patrolling wayshrines or whereever the botters hang out (I see them hang out in wayshrines in The Rift, for example.

Maybe this will change the attitudes of people.

Never works because everyone is happy with the system.

Imagine you have lots of spending money in real life (like a few do). You find that you need gold. So you buy another copy of the game for $40. You get in game and buy 500k gold from a gold seller. Then you use that gold to buy up all the items that you listed at outrageous prices in the guild store on your first account, like 1k gold for a stack of cotton. If you have friends you can trust, you buy their outrageously priced items in the guild store too and have them kickback half the gold to you. If you need gold again, rinse and repeat until ZOS bans your $40 account.

You get gold, ZOS gets $40 for the second account, gold seller makes proft. Everyone is happy.

Remove the tinfoil hat, please.

Developers lose a ton of money due to gold-sellers. Period.

Gold sellers are a negative only if they affect the game economy. Because of the 'unique' way the economy is set up in eso, being so fragmented, no one can tell if gold sellers are affecting the economy. There hasn't been much if any inflation. Just the opposite.

Chryos

Loxy37 wrote: »

This will never happen! Let's analyse. Hghgghfg earns gold from botting and then legit trades it to Joe the nord (His partner in crime, the front man or banker) with a legit trade of a motif (pays 100k) then Joe the silly nord, gives the gold to Fred the cheater for 1 soul gem! Fred had just been to CheatersAH and bought 100k for 8 American Dollars.

This wouldn't trigger any alarms because it seems like a legit trades.

Now scenario 2. Joe the nord is looking to buy high level tempers with gold from his bot friend, Hghgghfg. He advertises that he WTB high level tempers, all you can sell for 3k each. You see it and need the gold so you sell Joe the tempers. Under your system, you are now a gold buyer because you swapped him 10 tempers for 30k! Joe goes on to sell the tempers for the amazing sales price of 3$ each on CheatersAH!

Edit: forgot to add. If you mean ban them for buying from those sites then how the hek would they know that anyone is buying from those sites? Its not sent via mail as far as I know but via trades and I'm sure the bots are clever enough to disguise their trades via a front man or some other means of money washing!

tl;dr: innocents will be caught in the cross fire!

This is another example of a "cant do" attitude. Nothing is impossible. Make it hard on the botters, make it difficult, fight them, or jut let them ruin every MMO you ever want to see in the future.

wrlifeboil

Chryos wrote: »

"Developers lose a ton of money due to gold-sellers. Period."

Not only that, they reverse engineer and hack the game. Which is the number one reason for lag. My only other solution is to ban IPs from China or any other geographic region where there is alot of violators. It may not be fair for some, but it helps the majority.

It wont be long before we make it so difficult for them, they might find it more troubl than it's worth, especially when the next new mmo comes out. Hopefully they move on.

And for those who say, this wont work, or that wont work, my advice is this, get a new outlook on life because "i cant, you can't" never solved anything.

If World of Warcraft cannot get rid of gold sellers after almost ten years, I doubt other mmos can eradicate gold selling. The best anyone can hope for is that the devs can keep it under control so it doesn't hurt the game economy.

Hodorius

Chryos wrote: »

"Developers lose a ton of money due to gold-sellers. Period."

Not only that, they reverse engineer and hack the game. Which is the number one reason for lag. My only other solution is to ban IPs from China or any other geographic region where there is alot of violators. It may not be fair for some, but it helps the majority.

It wont be long before we make it so difficult for them, they might find it more troubl than it's worth, especially when the next new mmo comes out. Hopefully they move on.

And for those who say, this wont work, or that wont work, my advice is this, get a new outlook on life because "i cant, you can't" never solved anything.

You have the worst idea/attitude/character ever!
You must not punish innocent people for the crimes of others.

I hope you never have kids or pets or any power over any living beeing.

Mortelus

Guppet wrote: »

Say I don't like you and give your name to a gold site to send gold to. Hmm I just got you permanently banned, cos I don't like you.

Sounds like a really clever plan you have there chief.

And I would just contact Zeni and tell them a stranger sent me a large amount of gold, please can they remove it from my account, and investigate where it came from...

Probably not resulting in an permanent ban.

wrlifeboil

Also, I do not recommend doing that second account tactic to buy gold. That was just an example of how it is done. That said, I know players have done something like this in eso but it was cloaked better so there was virtually no chance of them being banned on their main accounts.

Mortelus

Chryos wrote: »

"Developers lose a ton of money due to gold-sellers. Period."

Not only that, they reverse engineer and hack the game. Which is the number one reason for lag. My only other solution is to ban IPs from China or any other geographic region where there is alot of violators. It may not be fair for some, but it helps the majority.

It wont be long before we make it so difficult for them, they might find it more troubl than it's worth, especially when the next new mmo comes out. Hopefully they move on.

And for those who say, this wont work, or that wont work, my advice is this, get a new outlook on life because "i cant, you can't" never solved anything.

I play from China so should I be banned? If so I should start a bot farming company in the USA /UK which ever country you are from so you get banned too along with all the other innocent players from there...

ozgod22_eso

Chryos wrote: »

(Dont know where else to put this thread)

Simply put, make an official statement or press release. If you get caught buying gold or conducting transfers with botters your account will be banned. If that isnt already the policy. (this is more like a reminder for those that dont read it)

Once the rules are laid down, enforce them by having GM's in game patrolling wayshrines or whereever the botters hang out (I see them hang out in wayshrines in The Rift, for example.

Maybe this will change the attitudes of people.

The problem with this (that every MMO has encountered) is in your third sentence. It's impossible to work out if an external monetary transaction has taken place. As Loxy said, someone sending you money in mail or giving it to you in character online doesn't necessarily mean it was purchased from a gold farmer. So if gfgsdgh sent someone gold, even though commonsense would suggest it is a bot, you can't be sure as there is no rule that says you can't name your character in a nonsensical way. There's no rule that says you can't give people gold - I have given friends of mine who are levelling gold many times to help them on their levelling path. Should I be banned for giving a friend gold in exchange for nothing in return?

We talked about this many, many times with players on other MMOs. The issue is you run the risk of banning innocent players for no reason. Obviously it's Zenimax's game and they can ban people on suspicion or for no reason, but it's not the best way to treat honest customers if they are lumped in with gold buyers.

It's unfortunately very difficult to police. If it's any consolation the bots usually die down a few months after launch. It's harder in ESO because this attracts the "immersion" crowd and nothing breaks immersion more than seeing a train of bots, as opposed to WoW where everyone wants to get to end game and could care less about seeing botting (and since WoW is now letting people buy max level toons its pretty much made levelling bots irrelevant).

To me something that might help in policing these bots better is to make the reporting process easier. As it stands the reporting process is very cumbersome. The ESO fanboys will likely flame me but I don't think it's hating on Zenimax to suggest that their reporting process could be improved. Right now you can report one of two ways. The first way is 1) press F1; 2) click Customer Service; 3) wait for the widget to launch; 4) type in asrhjyjyhkg or whatever the bot's name is (if it's a bot train you will have to do this multiple times) and 5) click Report. OR you can 1) chase the bot (if it is moving) 2) press F while being within 1 yard of it and 3) use the radial menu to select Report Player (repeating this for however many bots there are).

I would like to see a one step process of reporting bots but I'm not sure how you can do it in this game since you can't really select characters. But it needs to be simpler. As it is a lot of players are choosing to just ignore them because it's too much of a PITA to report them. So these bots end up getting to Vet level and higher.

As for this:

Not only that, they reverse engineer and hack the game. Which is the number one reason for lag. My only other solution is to ban IPs from China or any other geographic region where there is alot of violators. It may not be fair for some, but it helps the majority.

So our military personnel or genuine paying customers based in places like China or Hong Kong will be denied access to the game because of the actions of others? What if you were one of those people? Would you be happy with your solution? And there are a lot of botting companies based in Russia, parts of Western Europe, as well as the US. Should those countries all be banned too?

I know you are trying to find a solution, but that wasn't the smartest one.

LIQUID741

A blanket ban of a IP address is terrible, and simply racist. You should simply delete/edit your comment.

Gold Sellers are here to stay sadly. There has been a need since at least early days of EQ1 if my mind serves me right..his name was Yantis then. The self-proclaimed millionaire of online virtual goods.

Chryos

@‌Hodorius (writes:)

"You have the worst idea/attitude/character ever!
You must not punish innocent people for the crimes of others.

I hope you never have kids or pets or any power over any living beeing."

I could say the same thing about your comment towards me when you do not even know me.

ozgod22_eso

LIQUID741 wrote: »

A blanket ban of a IP address is terrible, and simply racist. You should simply delete/edit your comment.

Gold Sellers are here to stay sadly. There has been a need since at least early days of EQ1 if my mind serves me right..his name was Yantis then. The self-proclaimed millionaire of online virtual goods.

That's also the reason a lot of the Asian MMOs now offer Real Money Transactions on their website - to mitigate the impact of gold farmers (as well as cash in on the demand). Unfortunately there will always be time-poor money-rich (or lazy, take your pick) people who are willing to pay for this service. Blizzard ventured into the RMT world with Diablo 3 and the Real Money Auction House (though they got that badly wrong). Their allowing players to purchase level 90s has probably removed the need to use gold farmers/powerlevelling services (though I doubt that was the intention).

People need to think outside the box when trying to find solutions to this (rather than just "ban everyone in China because they are all gold farmers").

Chryos

Mortelus wrote: »

Chryos wrote: »

"Developers lose a ton of money due to gold-sellers. Period."

Not only that, they reverse engineer and hack the game. Which is the number one reason for lag. My only other solution is to ban IPs from China or any other geographic region where there is alot of violators. It may not be fair for some, but it helps the majority.

It wont be long before we make it so difficult for them, they might find it more troubl than it's worth, especially when the next new mmo comes out. Hopefully they move on.

And for those who say, this wont work, or that wont work, my advice is this, get a new outlook on life because "i cant, you can't" never solved anything.

I play from China so should I be banned? If so I should start a bot farming company in the USA /UK which ever country you are from so you get banned too along with all the other innocent players from there...

The majority of these botters/gold farmers do come from China. I am not trying to offend the innocent, however, it is the truth. In fact, you can watch a video on youtube about gold farming and a college student who went over there to see what life is like working for a gold farming company.

What they do might be legal in China, but not here in the US and I am sure not legal in Europe either. At some point a line has to be drawn on right and wrong. It's unfair and unjust that innocents get punished, I agree. It's more unfair and unjust that intellectual property gets reverse engineered.

How would you feel if you made a game in China, and I here in the US was hacking your game and messing up the quality of service for the majority? How is that fair to the majority?

LIQUID741

I would stop...your idea is terribad, offensive, and just downright wrong. You don't punish a entire group of people because of a small majority of gold farmers. Not sure where you are getting your logic from, but it's seriously flawed.

ozgod22_eso

Chryos wrote: »

The majority of these botters/gold farmers do come from China. I am not trying to offend the innocent, however, it is the truth. In fact, you can watch a video on youtube about gold farming and a college student who went over there to see what life is like working for a gold farming company.

What they do might be legal in China, but not here in the US and I am sure not legal in Europe either. At some point a line has to be drawn on right and wrong. It's unfair and unjust that innocents get punished, I agree. It's more unfair and unjust that intellectual property gets reverse engineered.

How would you feel if you made a game in China, and I here in the US was hacking your game and messing up the quality of service for the majority? How is that fair to the majority?

I don't disagree with you. Most of them are from China. Gold farming is a significant part of the Chinese microeconomy. But there's such a thing as the presumption of innocence. Lord Blackstone, an English jurist in the 18th century, said: "better that ten guilty persons go free than one innocent suffer". It really comes down to whether you are prepared to punish the innocent in the name of the "greater good". It's the "kill them all and let God sort them out" approach. Is it more important for Zenimax to protect their intellectual property or punish innocents.

It's an extreme analogy, but I'm sure generals in war have thought about those things before bombing cities with innocents in them. "Most of those people are ok, but there are some bad ones in there, so let's bomb them all to make sure we catch the bad ones".

Usually the people advocating for these blanket approaches are unlikely to be affected by the approaches they advocate for, which makes it easier to advocate for them. Not suggesting you are not from China by the way.

Loxy37

LIQUID741 wrote: »

A blanket ban of a IP address is terrible, and simply racist. You should simply delete/edit your comment.

Gold Sellers are here to stay sadly. There has been a need since at least early days of EQ1 if my mind serves me right..his name was Yantis then. The self-proclaimed millionaire of online virtual goods.

This is why I suggest damage limitation because Zenimax lost the battle the moment the servers were opened. Best they can do is make everything purcaseable from NPCs like tempers and motifs and devalue gold. Make a currency that's earned via quests, none tradeable, used for purchase of said good. Make dailies so people can earn credit, make gold used for purchased of small ticket items such as repairs, food, drink, increase golds drop rate from mobs. Having a horse cost 45kx8 character is like music to a bots ears!

Chryos

My comment is in no way racist just because I suggest a blanket ban as a solution. In no way have I attacked any race. China is simply known all over the world for horrible work ethics and conditions, that is no secret. China is notorious for being the source of cyber attacks. I'm sorry if it hurts peoples feelings. I do not pay my money for a product to be used as a means for criminals to make money off of.

There are good people in China and all over the world, and maybe they need to take a stand against cyber criminals and do a little more than "just nothing".

LIQUID741

The fact that you don't see the issue is your problem..IMO. Banning a specific country with a large amount of Asians...say 99.9% (Probably higher) and you say it's not racist. Not sure where your thinking is coming from.

Chryos

I do not want any blanket ban either, but what else can you do. Getting rid of money in the game, kinda ruins it for me. No drop items and devalued money make the world less immerse for me.

Hopefully they can figure some way to "hack proof" the game, the botters are game breaking. If botters want to make money, they should be smart enough to make their own game and conduct an honorable business instead of leeching off of someone elses property.

Again, I do not have anything against anyone of any nationalty, and that is pretty big of me to say, since I am a veteran. I however do not have to tolerate botters no matter what.

The majority will win, sadly criminals are the ones that punish the innocent. If you want things to change, better stand up to them because the internet is just infested with them.

I'll tell you whats in the future for the worldwide internet. It's going to get a major overhaul and going to go "buh bye". All due to cyber crime, with botters being just part of a bigger problem. It's going to be a series of private intranets, if people do not start standing up for something soon.