Kissing up to murdering charlatans (lore issue for nerds you have been warned)

Rayadrel

So I was doing quests in Deshaan and I've come to the realisation... I really hate interacting with Almalexia.
Nearly every conversation with her I have to kiss up and show deference and respect to a character I know for a fact is a liar, a murderer and a hypocrite.
Yes sometimes you can semi-snarkily point out how lazy she's being but that's it.

Now granted I'm not saying my character should magically know the Tribunal are scumbags but it would be nice if quests weren't always on rails as MMO quests are and let you branch out and find out dirt on them. And tell them to pike off once in a while just because they're really, really dumb. I mean that quest where you have to pass trials while you urgently need to enter the temple? Ridiculous!

I really don't look forward to Vivec ever being in the game now, as I absolutely despise him. Mind you this is mainly coloured by the non-canon scribblings of his insane author, who likes to live vicariously through Vivec and turned him into an invincible mary sue who totally survived Morrowind then ate Azura and got away with everything!

Yeah sure. I killed him with a fork.

tangorn

Oh, I so enjoyed killing him, I did it twice for sure, second time unarmed. And if you say my dark elf has to bend to these *** again, I might rethink if I even want EP toon...

Sakiri

I worship Daedra(specifically the Prince of Plots and Webspinner) yet im her Hand.

Surrre.

Catflinger

I am new to the whole ES lore thing and here is how this has unfolded for me. Being the kind of person who reads all the quest text carefully, I remembered the setup to meeting her from questing in Stonefalls and also the brief comments that young Ashlander woman in Ebonheart made about the Tribunal. I didn't go off to an external website and read about them at that point, but I remembered it.

So when I got in the Temple, the first thing I thought was that it looked a bit -- decadent, I guess, especially given the piety and devotion of so many of their followers. And my immediate impression of her was that she was being extremely disingenuous and was way too quick to anger for someone allegedly all about unconditional love and blah blah blah. It seemed my character was not all that sure about the situation either

It was at that point that I went off looked up the Tribunal on an Elder Scrolls wiki and wow, there's some serious dirty laundry there, huh?

I just wanted to say that as an outsider I kind of felt the same way, like kissing up to this entity was somehow odd and wrong even though I had no idea of the true story of how the Tribunal got their powers. And also that the quest designers did a fine job (IMO) of conveying that sense of "everything is all right here or is it really?" to newbs like myself

Sakiri

Best part...

Almalexia was Nerevar's wife. She killed him, then started seeing his adviser. Was probably messing around with him before that, but who knows. The wench.

Runefell

You know, I never really thought about it, but wow, can you imagine how much that sucks for the Dark Elves when the truth is finally revealed centuries down the road? They're dedicating their whole lives and souls to their religion and...

...not only are the 'gods' impostors, but they're traitors, murderers, and power-hungry backstabbers. The Dark Elves lost their original identity because of these three (they were originally Chimer), the the Three then proceeded to attempt to rebuild the Dark Elf culture so it revolved completely around them. Built up on such a shaky foundation of lies and deceit, it's no wonder it crashed. And the result of saving the world from a mess THEY started, is that a giant asteroid crashed into their largest city, leveling it, and a volcano pretty much destroyed their whole homeland.

The Dark Elves find out that not only was their entire religion and culture a lie for countless generations, but their whole race was horribly punished for it.

While many of the Dark Elves I've come across so far could be described as '***', as a whole, their race has almost a tragic backstory as the snow elves.

Rayadrel

Worst yet were the opportunist Argonians who invaded and razed Almalexia when Red Mountain exploded.
Yeah yeah slavery. If the only time you can win is when your enemy is all the way down then you so deserve a counter attack where all your dumb lizard cities get sunk right back into the swamp where they belong! *shakes fist*

Sakiri

If you play through Tribunal, Azura tells you that Almalexia's death was just should you kill her. She got power drunk and killed Sotha Sil so she could become the one true god of the Dunmer. This is why the Tribunal is gone around Oblivion(which takes place shortly after Morrowind) and the remaining member is Vivec, whom I like to think either achieved Amaranth or zero summed himself out of existence, but thats my Kirkbride twitch talking.

Tribunal spoilers.

Rayadrel

I rather think I killed Vivec, which I did.
Kirkbride's vicarious fantasies annoy me. I hate author avatars in general, because they invariably win at everything, become universally admired and have all of the sex. Same reason I heavily dislike the Witcher books.
But hey at least Sapkowski has the drive to publish his own books rather than hang off the ledge of a videogame series.

ArgonianAssassin

Rayadrel wrote: »

Worst yet were the opportunist Argonians who invaded and razed Almalexia when Red Mountain exploded.
Yeah yeah slavery. If the only time you can win is when your enemy is all the way down then you so deserve a counter attack where all your dumb lizard cities get sunk right back into the swamp where they belong! *shakes fist*

Yeah cuz it's not like we're only race who forced Mehrunes Dagon into retreat and then invaded his plane of oblivion in a counter attack or anything like that, no, because we weak argonians are scared and pathetic and could never pull off anything like that.

Rayadrel

ArgonianAssassin wrote: »

Rayadrel wrote: »

Worst yet were the opportunist Argonians who invaded and razed Almalexia when Red Mountain exploded.
Yeah yeah slavery. If the only time you can win is when your enemy is all the way down then you so deserve a counter attack where all your dumb lizard cities get sunk right back into the swamp where they belong! *shakes fist*

Yeah cuz it's not like we're only race who forced Mehrunes Dagon into retreat and then invaded his plane of oblivion in a counter attack or anything like that, no, because we weak argonians are scared and pathetic and could never pull off anything like that.

Uhuh. Because Bruma, Ald'Ruhn and the Thalmor didn't do the exact same thing rite?
Hell I bet Dagon's siege engines got stuck in the swamp.

Sakiri

Rayadrel wrote: »

I rathekr think I killed Vivec, which I did.
Kirkbride's vicarious fantasies annoy me. I hate author avatars in general, because they invariably win at everything, become universally admired and have all of the sex. Same reason I heavily dislike the Witcher books.
But hey at least Sapkowski has the drive to publish his own books rather than hang off the ledge of a videogame series.

Im pretty sure I remember NPCs saying Vivec is missing. If he was dead thered at least have been a murder rumor one would think.

I like Kirkbrides ramblings on the metaphysical, but dislike the focus on Vivec and Nerevar.

If that makes sense.

Rayadrel

Well I'm not saying Kirkbride's stuff is entirely without merit he just refuses to balance his writings and just has Vivec win at everything.

He's also a complete ***. I once argued with him over his daft concept that Nirn was flat. When I showed him the evidence primarily from Redguard and Oblivion that Nirn is indeed round like any other planet he started flaming me.
This guy cannot accept he is one among many writers you see. He still thinks Morrowind is his personal opus.

But I digress. Sure Vivec's missing, this is the proper terminology that doesn't step on player decisions, as some players do choose to leave him alive (whoever wrote Neloth in Dragonborn should take note of this simple concept).
Let's just say I disposed of the body.

fiachsidhe

This isn't just a problem with Almalexia. Throughout the entire game your character vacillates between being a spineless doormat with no drive or opinions, to being a joyless tool (why can't I go along with Sheogorath's antics?).

I'm whatever the lazy quest writers needed me to be. We're pretty much roleplaying the them.
and apparently we come from nowhere, have no knowledge of any culture anywhere, and no belief system.

Sakiri

Dont forget my main is a Nord that cant hold his mead.

Those exist?

*** drunk doing the quest...

Rasha

fiachsidhe wrote: »

.....(why can't I go along with Sheogorath's antics?).

This, a thousand times, this! My favorite quests so far, bar none, have been the quest lines that had old Uncle Sheo in them. I will admit, at first, to being a little put off that Haskil's voice had changed from Oblivion. It was fun fighting him though

Ahh, good old Uncle Sheo...the relative you always want at Christmas...just don't ever run out of cheese...

Asawasa

Rasha wrote: »

fiachsidhe wrote: »

.....(why can't I go along with Sheogorath's antics?).

This, a thousand times, this! My favorite quests so far, bar none, have been the quest lines that had old Uncle Sheo in them. I will admit, at first, to being a little put off that Haskil's voice had changed from Oblivion. It was fun fighting him though

Ahh, good old Uncle Sheo...the relative you always want at Christmas...just don't ever run out of cheese...

careful that is exactly how he seduces all of his "followers". if ever they should have permadeath in MMO its for people that make dumb choices like go play with old uncle Sheo.

Anvos

To be far its hard to prove what we did in Morrowind actually proved the Tribunal false.

Lets face it the only thing that actually came close to saying we were Neverine was Moon and Star, but since its an artifact of Azura's she could easily alter its properties to accept us.

Also there is nothing that actually proves the counter claim right, as all accounts say Nevrine was badly wounded in the battle with Dunmac.

Third Deadra aren't gods and the Heart of Lorkhan was all but scientifically proven by the dwemer to be the dewilled essence of a creator god. Giving that energy new will essentially does make you a god.

Lets also not forget that the Ashlanders were also bitter since at the end of the last battle with the dwemer the House Dunmer had emerged as the domnate dunmer culture. Then they also took in a former shield guard or something of Neverar who along with his version of the rise of the Tribunal was also claiming that the dwemer didn't disappear but just turned to dust, which history says is wrong.

Rayadrel

Vivec never denies the facts of his betrayal when confronted, and the very fact that the Tribunal HAS power at all proves their guilt.
They stole power from the heart that they were never meant to have, and abused it to become the permanent leaders of the Dunmer.

BBSooner

Though I knew the lore behind the tribunal I enjoyed taking my imperial (who has no character knowledge of the inner workings of the tribunal) to meet Almalexia. It was interesting to see how an adventurer would see the tribunal, especially one who is never privy to the dirty details, as opposed to the nerevarim. It very much seemed like a more grand occasion than when my AD char meet ayrenn who seems to pop up everywhere with an 'oh .. hello'.

Ironblaze

Rayadrel wrote: »

ArgonianAssassin wrote: »

Rayadrel wrote: »

Worst yet were the opportunist Argonians who invaded and razed Almalexia when Red Mountain exploded.
Yeah yeah slavery. If the only time you can win is when your enemy is all the way down then you so deserve a counter attack where all your dumb lizard cities get sunk right back into the swamp where they belong! *shakes fist*

Yeah cuz it's not like we're only race who forced Mehrunes Dagon into retreat and then invaded his plane of oblivion in a counter attack or anything like that, no, because we weak argonians are scared and pathetic and could never pull off anything like that.

Uhuh. Because Bruma, Ald'Ruhn and the Thalmor didn't do the exact same thing rite?
Hell I bet Dagon's siege engines got stuck in the swamp.

From the Elder Scrolls wiki, Oblivion Crisis:
"A different story was in evidence in the province of Black Marsh, however. The Argonians rallied to combat the Daedra, led by a political faction called the An-Xileel. The Argonians defended their land, managing even to take the battle into Oblivion; they struck with such ferocity that the Daedra themselves were forced to close many of their own Gates. Black Marsh was held until the end of the war, bringing the An-Xileel to great prominence."

By this, it seems as if whereas the other provinces held on purely by Martin and Akatosh acting in Cyrodiil to save the day (and maybe the Champion did something beyond bodyguard duty, didn't feel that way) the Argonians didn't need any divine help to begin forcing a daedric retreat.

Rayadrel

Ironblaze wrote: »

Rayadrel wrote: »

ArgonianAssassin wrote: »

Rayadrel wrote: »

Worst yet were the opportunist Argonians who invaded and razed Almalexia when Red Mountain exploded.
Yeah yeah slavery. If the only time you can win is when your enemy is all the way down then you so deserve a counter attack where all your dumb lizard cities get sunk right back into the swamp where they belong! *shakes fist*

Yeah cuz it's not like we're only race who forced Mehrunes Dagon into retreat and then invaded his plane of oblivion in a counter attack or anything like that, no, because we weak argonians are scared and pathetic and could never pull off anything like that.

Uhuh. Because Bruma, Ald'Ruhn and the Thalmor didn't do the exact same thing rite?
Hell I bet Dagon's siege engines got stuck in the swamp.

From the Elder Scrolls wiki, Oblivion Crisis:
"A different story was in evidence in the province of Black Marsh, however. The Argonians rallied to combat the Daedra, led by a political faction called the An-Xileel. The Argonians defended their land, managing even to take the battle into Oblivion; they struck with such ferocity that the Daedra themselves were forced to close many of their own Gates. Black Marsh was held until the end of the war, bringing the An-Xileel to great prominence."

By this, it seems as if whereas the other provinces held on purely by Martin and Akatosh acting in Cyrodiil to save the day (and maybe the Champion did something beyond bodyguard duty, didn't feel that way) the Argonians didn't need any divine help to begin forcing a daedric retreat.

Yeah and in Alinor the Altmer "killed so many Daedra that they scaled the walls over mounds of their own dead." and yet they kept coming.
Redoran also butchered swathes of Daedra in Vvardenfell, resurrecting the Ald'Skar itself to do it, and yet the Daedra kept coming.

The idea that the Argonians alone pushed back an entire invasion is absurd. And given that the only source for this utter nonsense is that abysmal Infernal City book and not from ANY of the games, I'm not inclined to believe it.

It is either contradictory, or easily explained as propaganda on the part of Argonian liars much like the Thalmor took credit for ending the Oblivion crisis.

Shiaxi

Ironblaze wrote: »

Rayadrel wrote: »

ArgonianAssassin wrote: »

Rayadrel wrote: »

Worst yet were the opportunist Argonians who invaded and razed Almalexia when Red Mountain exploded.
Yeah yeah slavery. If the only time you can win is when your enemy is all the way down then you so deserve a counter attack where all your dumb lizard cities get sunk right back into the swamp where they belong! *shakes fist*

Yeah cuz it's not like we're only race who forced Mehrunes Dagon into retreat and then invaded his plane of oblivion in a counter attack or anything like that, no, because we weak argonians are scared and pathetic and could never pull off anything like that.

Uhuh. Because Bruma, Ald'Ruhn and the Thalmor didn't do the exact same thing rite?
Hell I bet Dagon's siege engines got stuck in the swamp.

By this, it seems as if whereas the other provinces held on purely by Martin and Akatosh acting in Cyrodiil to save the day (and maybe the Champion did something beyond bodyguard duty, didn't feel that way) the Argonians didn't need any divine help to begin forcing a daedric retreat.

didn't feel that way? did we play the same game? I closed a crapload of oblivion gates; went into the plane of oblivion at least 50 times; went into mankar camoran's personal plane and wrecked that.... appeased all the daedric princes.. became sheogorath for crying out loud

it was my heroes actions that forced Mehrunes hand to try an all out assault

Shiaxi

Sakiri wrote: »

Rayadrel wrote: »

I rathekr think I killed Vivec, which I did.
Kirkbride's vicarious fantasies annoy me. I hate author avatars in general, because they invariably win at everything, become universally admired and have all of the sex. Same reason I heavily dislike the Witcher books.
But hey at least Sapkowski has the drive to publish his own books rather than hang off the ledge of a videogame series.

Im pretty sure I remember NPCs saying Vivec is missing. If he was dead thered at least have been a murder rumor one would think.

I like Kirkbrides ramblings on the metaphysical, but dislike the focus on Vivec and Nerevar.

If that makes sense.

... not just dead, but soul trapped and used to enchant a kickass piece of armor if I remember correctly (in most of my morrowind playthroughs anyway)

Rayadrel

Shiaxi wrote: »

... not just dead, but soul trapped and used to enchant a kickass piece of armor if I remember correctly (in most of my morrowind playthroughs anyway)

Haha. I put his soul gem on a shelf in my Telvanni house

Shiaxi

slightly offtopic but this:
http://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/the-metaphysics-of-morrowind-part-1/

is an interesting read mostly about how the elder scrolls in general and Vivec in specific screw around with the 4th wall in gaming

lotsa words but an interesting read

Rayadrel

Shiaxi wrote: »

slightly offtopic but this:
http://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/the-metaphysics-of-morrowind-part-1/

is an interesting read mostly about how the elder scrolls in general and Vivec in specific screw around with the 4th wall in gaming

lotsa words but an interesting read

Hmm.. this level of ramble seems quite familiar. I'm certain I've argued with this person in the past.
But then it was quite a few years ago and many of the group that in this post-Twilight era I now refer to as Team Vehk had the same manner of metaphyiscal justifications to pretend Vivec was a super-ultra-god, egged on by Kirkbride and his ego.

Interesting read, yes. But a hell of a lot of wishful thinking going on there.

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO

I've had my fill of Almalexia and Vivec tbh, but I've always wanted to meet Sotha Sil. Just not... y'know dead. I'm sure I'd get tired of him quickly as well, but right now he's my favorite member of the Tribunal.

Shiaxi

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

I've had my fill of Almalexia and Vivec tbh, but I've always wanted to meet Sotha Sil. Just not... y'know dead. I'm sure I'd get tired of him quickly as well, but right now he's my favorite member of the Tribunal.

hah "favourite" member of the tribunal; that's a questionable distinction..

Aureli

Rayadrel wrote: »

So I was doing quests in Deshaan and I've come to the realisation... I really hate interacting with Almalexia.
Nearly every conversation with her I have to kiss up and show deference and respect to a character I know for a fact is a liar, a murderer and a hypocrite.
Yes sometimes you can semi-snarkily point out how lazy she's being but that's it.

Now granted I'm not saying my character should magically know the Tribunal are scumbags but it would be nice if quests weren't always on rails as MMO quests are and let you branch out and find out dirt on them. And tell them to pike off once in a while just because they're really, really dumb. I mean that quest where you have to pass trials while you urgently need to enter the temple? Ridiculous!

I really don't look forward to Vivec ever being in the game now, as I absolutely despise him. Mind you this is mainly coloured by the non-canon scribblings of his insane author, who likes to live vicariously through Vivec and turned him into an invincible mary sue who totally survived Morrowind then ate Azura and got away with everything!

Yeah sure. I killed him with a fork.

There are countless numbers of threads speculating and discussing these events, especially on the Bethesda forums. Nonetheless, here's my two pence. At this point in time, Almelexia is not a known murderer, nor are any of the other Tribunal. There are 3 different accounts of what happened on the Mountain, and each injured party implicates another party. The Tribunal claims Nerevar died of his wounds (and this is actually the most commonly accepted story within the setting, backed up by witness accounts and multiple testimonies). Dagoth Ur claims that the Tribunal killed Nerevar and stole the power for themselves (of course he does, he's the portrayed villain and would want to garner sympathy from those not friendly to the Tribunal; he also wants to commit genocide against all non-Dunmer, and claims Nerevar entrusted the Heart to him for safeguarding).
The idea that the Tribunal killed him for the tools is silly, because of what happened to the Dwemer when they used them. So it's more logical to assume that he did in fact die of his mortal wounds from the battle as is suggested, and they succumbed to the whisper of power. Think of the Heart like the One Ring, whispering temptations in your ear.
Regardless, without the Tribunal, Dagoth Ur would have kept the Heart and Morrowind would be a very different place. Or he wouldn't, and the Akaviri would have overrun Morrowind because Vivec wasn't there to stop them. Or Molag Bal would have destroyed it, because Almalexia and Sotha Sil weren't there to defeat him. Or the Daedra would have overrun it long before the Oblivion Crisis because Sotha Sil didn't work out a treaty to prevent large scale summoning of major Daedra. Or that time when Vivec signed a treaty with the Empire granting near autonomous status to Morrowind with tribute, rather than being completely conquered.

The point is, regardless of the reasons that they chose to use the heart (and I don't believe they killed Nerevar to do it, that part of the story is left up to the reader/player to decide for themselves), it granted them a power that they have used through the centuries to protect the Dunmer like a Daedric Prince never would have. Other events, the persecution by the Ordinators and church, can all be chalked up to increasingly divergent interpretations of the teachings of the Tribunal during their waning years of isolation and despair as Dagoth Ur grew in power.

Yeah, they were haughty and could be a *** sometimes, but so was Azura who cursed an ENTIRE race because of the actions of 4 individuals.

So yeah, entire point of this was to say that I think it's pretty cool getting to interact with the TRibunal, and I hope to see more of it. Sure, Almalexia becomes pretty crazy down the road, but she isn't yet.

fiachsidhe wrote: »

This isn't just a problem with Almalexia. Throughout the entire game your character vacillates between being a spineless doormat with no drive or opinions, to being a joyless tool (why can't I go along with Sheogorath's antics?).

I'm whatever the lazy quest writers needed me to be. We're pretty much roleplaying the them.
and apparently we come from nowhere, have no knowledge of any culture anywhere, and no belief system.

Yeah, this is really no different from any of the other games. Barring games with a strongly identified character who has a backstory and identity, the story is what you make it to be.

Shiaxi

It is actually pretty well established that the tribunal did kill Nerevar; IIRC Vivec even owns up to it in his 36 lessons..

what is not all that clear is why they did it