Guild store or Auction House

dmurdoch7rwb17_ESO

Well, having played the game for a month now I thought I would start this discussion about Guild Stores and Auction Houses.

I'm not sure why they have gone down the Guild Store path, maybe being a mega server an Auction House would be too big that continual searches through it would chew up server resources and be extremely slow, I don't know, but for me having to switch in and out of guild stores to find what I want is someone painful.

The biggest plus an Auction House I think is that there is one "Store", and you can find everything you want via that store.

I guess with a Guild Store you could make it a specific store that maybe specialises in a certain item but not having the ability to search for an item name, post items into the store and specify the stack size without having to split them first etc makes it a very user unfriendly store.

Anyone else have any thoughts on the topic?

OzzyNOR

This is thread #234234 about this, but it can't be repeated enough.

The current system is pretty awful. Chat functions, and server shards(or whatever they're called) are not at all supportive of chat-based trade. And the 5 guild-store setup is inconvenient to say the least. AH's bound to city's, alliance AH's with some sort of restrictions...anything is better than what we currently have.

The new guild shop thing that's coming just seems to be aimed at behemoth guilds, which is fine on paper, but all these restrictions to trade is just not well thought through.

Locke_ESO

If this game had an auction house the economy would be in so much of a mess right now. If the gold sellers who are auto farming ingredient/material nodes and the item dupers had access to a global market place everything crafted in the game would be pretty much worthless. Personally I find the current system quite interesting seeing as it actually relies on a bit of human interaction. For example for Provisioning I have a list of regular customers I sell to and if I chose to I can expand that. I also know of some people who make free or discount items for people and in return they provide them with materials they collect as they travel the world.

I certainly understand the attraction of a global market place and there are improvements they could make on the current system but there are benefits to the direction Zenimax has chosen imo. Maybe it's less convenient but I find it more interesting as an experience.

dmurdoch7rwb17_ESO

Yeah I like the Idea of Alliance Based Stores. Most of the Guilds that I have been in so far seem to peak at around 500-600 members and the Store has been pretty limited in what you can get.

I know its early days and people are probably not much interested in the store at the moment as there is so much else to explore/learn/do but it will be interesting to see what improvements they do to the current Guild Store.

dmurdoch7rwb17_ESO

PS: I didn't see the other thread about this so my apologies for duplicating something that is already in discussion.

Eris

It is too early to discuss this topic. We have only a single sentence with a couple of blurbs about what they intend to do.

We have not seen the actual working model.

We don't have enough information to have a realistic discussion on this topic.

OzzyNOR

jp_antillb16_ESO wrote: »

If this game had an auction house the economy would be in so much of a mess right now. If the gold sellers who are auto farming ingredient/material nodes and the item dupers had access to a global market place everything crafted in the game would be pretty much worthless. Personally I find the current system quite interesting seeing as it actually relies on a bit of human interaction. For example for Provisioning I have a list of regular customers I sell to and if I chose to I can expand that. I also know of some people who make free or discount items for people and in return they provide them with materials they collect as they travel the world.

I certainly understand the attraction of a global market place and there are improvements they could make on the current system but there are benefits to the direction Zenimax has chosen imo. Maybe it's less convenient but I find it more interesting as an experience.

It would have been a mess, not because of the AH, but because of Zenimax' lack of handling on botters/scripters, multiboxers and dupers and cheaters. Lets get the priorities straight here. Limiting everything because Zenimax can't get a handle on all of these problems is a very bad sign. What else can't they handle properly in the future?

tylarthb16_ESO

AH please, and police exploit abusers.

Sequitur

AH now. AH now. AH now. AH now. AH now. AH now.

Guild stores = fail. Guild stores = fail. Guild stores = fail. Guild stores = fail. Guild stores = fail.

Arsvita

jp_antillb16_ESO wrote: »

If this game had an auction house the economy would be in so much of a mess right now. If the gold sellers who are auto farming ingredient/material nodes and the item dupers had access to a global market place everything crafted in the game would be pretty much worthless. Personally I find the current system quite interesting seeing as it actually relies on a bit of human interaction. For example for Provisioning I have a list of regular customers I sell to and if I chose to I can expand that. I also know of some people who make free or discount items for people and in return they provide them with materials they collect as they travel the world.

I certainly understand the attraction of a global market place and there are improvements they could make on the current system but there are benefits to the direction Zenimax has chosen imo. Maybe it's less convenient but I find it more interesting as an experience.

Sorry this is so dang long..., but these are the people adamant about guild control of all sale, unless "VERY, VERY inefficient with + 100% markups. I express myself between the two quoted posters, using them as an aplogy of why the above quote is pure straw-man.

Starw-man: and guild control?

Please read on of these "solutions" and problems created already by the guilds and their members "Playing the Market"!

vandrillordepreub18_ESO wrote: »

People are right that it should be available. Especially when people are desperate for certain items that no one seems to be selling. But the only way I'd agree to an auction house is if there was a 100% price tax to BUY FROM IT. In addition, sales should be taxed by 25%. So, it should be useable but VERY, VERY inefficient. After all, each of the factions has a war to win. They need this tax money.

In this example, let's say you go buy a stack of potions originally listed for 200 gold by the seller. You, the buyer, will actually be buying them for 400 gold. 175 of the gold goes to the seller while 225 is lost to the taxes.

Now, I'm not trolling with this post. I'm completely serious. Don't freak out, think about it. What this would do is...

1: Allow people to post all the more common items that most people currently just junk for inventory space, at least making some profit out of them.

2: Introduce a set-and-forget central marketplace for each faction for those who do not want to sell manually, in exchange for some extremely lessened chances of sale and a profit cut.

3: Introduce an emergency-supply market for people who are absolutely desperate for certain items that no one seems to be currently selling, at the cost of having to pay double the normal price for it.

4: Due to points 2 and 3, the system would function as a heavy gold sink that is completely and utterly optional. This would help maintain the value of gold, fighting against inflation.

5: Due to points 2 and 3, the system will have minimal overall effect on manual trading and guild store prices, allowing for manual-trade and guild stores to continue to be just as viable a trading method as they are now while STILL offering an alternative.

A system like this is a system I could get behind.
If all this restriction by tax seems too much for you, you could also take a look at Nazon_Katts Consignment Vendor suggestion over at this thread.

So the Guild Auction House is a great way of interaction with other players?

How many people know each other, really, in those large market houses?

How many of those unknown "players" are actually gold sellers in the mists of names that are already playing the system?

Malediktus wrote: »

Its simple tell them you will only sell per pick up and your prices arent negotiable. Most people will cave in, because thats still better than spending time finding another seller. I can pretty much buy up a lot of stuff from the 5 guild stores have access to and sell it for at least 50-100% more without having to pay any taxes.

Not saying a gold seller, but this is a self proclaimed guild member "Playing the System" and messing with the games "Economy" already.

It looks like the guilds stores (AH), perhaps, need that 100%+ added fee to the buyers like you would wish on any possible AH that may come along.

The flood gates have already been opened within the guild (AH) market.

A system of checks and balances (sort of like a Free Market that can set prices by people who are only willing to buy or sell at particular prices) needs to be implemented across the boards.

This is especially true with the possibility of Guild Only Open Stall Markets. To the lesser guilds that may know everyone personally, but are not large enough for a private store (AH), and to other players that enjoy spending time playing the game with their own close knit friends. Who will control the gold sellers buying, selling, and cornering the market like you claim would happen with an open AH for everyone?

It is an issue that has been pivoted around the straw-man of gold-sellers ruining everything, but not of the normal greedy people that will play the market just the same.

This is just out there to show what is already in our midst, active, and happening. The question is moot about gouging, it's there, and doubtful you can change people from playing the market, no matter who.

The question many of these people have asked, even from trading guilds, is how do I expand my ability to find what i need for crafting?

Hopefully some common ground can be reached by this with open minded debate of not what may be, but what is here and how can we fix this.

Hangtooth

Zeni had a vision in mind clearly when creating guilds and the economy to mirror the trade guild system of medieval guilds

A guild /ɡɪld/ is an association of artisans or merchants who control the practice of their craft in a particular town. The earliest types of guild were formed as confraternities of workers. They were organized in a manner something between a professional association, trade union, a cartel, and a secret society. They often depended on grants of letters patent by a monarch or other authority to enforce the flow of trade to their self-employed members, and to retain ownership of tools and the supply of materials. A lasting legacy of traditional guilds are the guildhalls constructed and used as meeting places.

I know some disagree with this economy and crafting/sales model but at least Zeni is trying something different that more realistically fits the times better than a 24 hour a day automated auction house.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild#Medieval_guild

Arsvita

never much on a wiki. let alone pedia.

But as you quote them as to what a Guild is...
1. an organization of persons with common professional or cultural interests formed for mutual aid and protection.
2. Hist. one of the associations, numerous in the middle ages, formed for mutual aid and protection or for a common purpose, most frequently by persons associated in trade or industry.
3. Bot. all of the plants, such as parasites, having a similar habit of growth and nutrition.

As per the American College Dictionary

Yes Zeni had a vision, yes it was implemented, yes the guilds want and demand a large modicum of control, and yes the "System is being Played" by people in the guilds (as per self proclamation above) already creating the straw-man argument of how an AH "will ruin the market with gold sellers" "playing the market".

I have little use or desire for either. I remain solely in a small guild of which I know everyone, even though I receive many guild offers, and I know there are no "gold farmers" or people "playing the market" it.

Brennan

Arsvita wrote: »

*snip*
Not saying a gold seller, but this is a self proclaimed guild member "Playing the System" and messing with the games "Economy" already.*snip*

The post you're quoting is not from a person messing with the game's economy. He is messing with the guild's economy. In a globalized environment, he could then potentially mess with the game's economy.

Dyvim

Brennan wrote: »

Arsvita wrote: »

*snip*
Not saying a gold seller, but this is a self proclaimed guild member "Playing the System" and messing with the games "Economy" already.*snip*

The post you're quoting is not from a person messing with the game's economy. He is messing with the guild's economy. In a globalized environment, he could then potentially mess with the game's economy.

If you are in those guilds thanks to artificial barriers to a true open market, what difference does it make, you are getting hosed, and the predators have an easier time doing it, since you have a *** poor interface and a complete dearth of tools and market information.

An AH with a large market can easily provide robust information for buyers and sellers, including bid/ask spreads, numbers for sale, historical pricing, and sales trends, ALL OF WHICH better, modern AH's deliver. Not to mention the fact that if you want to buy or sell something, you don't have to fish through up to FIVE craptasm markets with the same craptasm interface to do it. The whole purpose of being a crafter is to make goods to SELL. This game kills its own economy buy stifling economic activity. You don't get a healthy economy buy shackling it and trying to limit the economic transactions that make up its lifeblood. Its idiotic.

People that are in favor of the current system are oblivious to the basics of economics and player convenience. Large markets are inherently more efficient and have more rationale supply/demand/price curves. In addition, an AH is possibly THE BEST anti-inflationary tool that a game can have. It encourages transactions, and taxes each one of them, removing gold from the market, fighting inflation. Instead, with what we have now, players typically just vendor items, because its less of a hassle...and all that does is FURTHER inflate the gold supply. If they sold it in an AH instead, another player buys it and the transaction is taxed, removing gold from the system, INSTEAD OF ADDING IT.

The current system denies players information, segregates players into smaller, fractured markets artificially, makes buying and selling more of a hassle, and does so all with one of the most pitiful interfaces imaginable. Its a disgrace. A blind man could see it.

Arsvita

Brennan wrote: »

Arsvita wrote: »

*snip*
Not saying a gold seller, but this is a self proclaimed guild member "Playing the System" and messing with the games "Economy" already.*snip*

The post you're quoting is not from a person messing with the game's economy. He is messing with the guild's economy. In a globalized environment, he could then potentially mess with the game's economy.

The quote specifically mentions messing with the market in a way that directly affects small guild and non guild players.

Malediktus wrote:

Its simple tell them you will only sell per pick up and your prices arent negotiable. Most people will cave in, because thats still better than spending time finding another seller. I can pretty much buy up a lot of stuff from the 5 guild stores have access to and sell it for at least 50-100% more without having to pay any taxes.

Buying from guild markets and marking up the prices to sell to small guild and non guild players, hence no taxes, just spam chat.

That is directly messing with the people outside of those guild stores. He is not turning around and jacking the prices for resale in the guild markets and thereby "messing with the guild's economy" as you claim.

Dyvim

@‌ Arsvita ‌

I gave the EXACT same example, except as a hypothetical in another thread...I'm completely unsurprised that predators are actually doing it and talking about it on the forums...

Its simple...You have someone with two accounts...one one acct, they join five large trade guilds. On the other acct, they join five small or medium guilds...Then, they can easily buy in the larger markets, which are going to, by definition, have more buyers and sellers, thus more reasonable prices (competition) and selection, then turn around and price gouge with the other toon in the smaller markets...to players that don't have the same market access or pricing information that goes along with it...simply because they do not want to have to game the guild market system and spend time doing it. Of course, you don't need two accounts to do this...

THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS when you have small, inefficient markets that are segregated with artificial, arbitrary barriers. This game WORKS TO KEEP buyers and sellers APART, and does it with a craptastic interface to boot, instead of bringing them together. It is completely stupid from every standard of good game design and basic economic principle.

Here is another news flash...those people who fall back on the "but this is the developers vision, or this is how the game is meant to be..." Again those arguments are incredibly naïve and inappropriate for an MMO. First off, the developers "vision" was tempered by time and resources available. Tradeoffs and compromises were made...because this is an MMO, a game that seeks long term relationships and revenues from its customers, things change and hopefully improve as more features are INEVITABLY introduced. This is based on sometimes player feedback, or just simply them having the time to finish or realize what they wanted to do, but didn't have the time to and make their ship date.

I can guarantee you that they are NOT proud of the crappy inventory or market systems they have delivered, and the player feedback in polls on these forums conform what we already know...most players aren't satisfied with them either.