Bring back the old school XP loss ala EQ1

Chryos

I wrote this in another post. Gear repair is in no way something that causes me pure dread when I die in game. We need a real punishment for death to keep it real. People wont take the same risks then:

"Here is the fix.... remove gear damage and bring back xp loss upon death, not an xp penalty but EQ1 style xp loss, then that will give death a "real bite" and force players to not be so careless or reckless in game. I mentioned this in beta as did many others. XP loss is still by far the best penalty hands down for dying."

What do ya'll think? This means once you level, youll have to get that buffer xp to keep you from delevling if u die immediately after leveling up.

This is how old school MMORPG'ers rolled before they all went easy for the young kids, or went "softcore"

This is the best death penalty system ever, tried and true..

(EDIT: Once xp is lost due to death, another player can "Rez" you to get back 90% of the xp lost, for example death costs a 10% xp penalty, upon player rez, you get 90% back of the 10% you lost, this is close to how the old school games did, roughly)

Chryos

would not apply in pvp, pvp would be gear damage

Skeletun

I remember EQ1 XP loss system. I believe Asheron's Call had a similar system. Wasn't too crazy as bout it.
I mean it sounds cool from a nostalgia perspective; but then I remember the Lag death, bug death, grief death (getting caught in EQ1 trains) and and dying to a white con who now becomes red. Then there is the issue of lose a level lose your gear (not high enough level to use it any more).
So while it was okay for it's time, it is not something I want today.
Although I do agree there needs to be a harsher death penalty.

Lanatireb17_ESO

There is a reason why EVERY mmo that had it got rid of it.

scabrous_ftz

Yup, there's nothing like getting a new level, buying a new set of spells, then dying and having to grind 2-3 bubbles of XP to regain that level.

I miss those days... Well, maybe not so much.

Tarwin

Back then, there was nothing to really compare mmo's to. We had UO which was the whole PK Full loot insanity and EQ
Part of the game then was built around Corpse Run's, De-"Dinging" and actually reading a quest to figure out your next steps. We took the frustrations in stride
Then WoW came out and took away all the "frustrations" of dying, figuring out quests etc. It has now become more mindless than ever
We now just look for Quest Markers and run around, click,click,click, die, get up, click,click .. done!

My favorite Death system of all time was EQ2 when it first came out "experience debt" along with reclaiming your soul shard to accelerate removal of debt. Vanguard had a pretty could system too IMHO

Now it's just about paying for your lack of carefulness with gold

Chryos

gamebouncerb16_ESO wrote: »

Back then, there was nothing to really compare mmo's to. We had UO which was the whole PK Full loot insanity and EQ
Part of the game then was built around Corpse Run's, De-"Dinging" and actually reading a quest to figure out your next steps. We took the frustrations in stride
Then WoW came out and took all the "frustrations" of dying, figuring out quests etc. It has now become more mindless than ever
We now just look for Quest Markers and run around, click,click,click, die, get up, click,click .. done!

My favorite Death system of all time was EQ2 when it first came out "experience debt" along with reclaiming your soul shard to accelerate removal of debt. Vanguard had a pretty could system too IMHO

Now it's just about paying for your lack of carefullness with gold

Yeah, still tho nothing made me more careful about the risks I took than worrying about losing XP when I die. It just changes the whole feel of the game and makes escaping death feel like a true triumph. If I could only convince the rest of ESO.

Chryos

You guys make me sad, it was so fun, frustration and all

Kendaric

Chryos wrote: »

You guys make me sad, it was so fun, frustration and all

A system like in EverQuest wouldn't work in ESO. At least not until they allow every quest to be done as a group.

And no, it was not fun ... a lagspike could get you killed and losing exp from that was frustrating as hell. The corpse runs, however, were fun and helped in getting to know new people.

xDonMega

Terrible idea... deserving a perma-ban..

Jeremy

Chryos wrote: »

I wrote this in another post. Gear repair is in no way something that causes me pure dread when I die in game. We need a real punishment for death to keep it real. People wont take the same risks then:

"Here is the fix.... remove gear damage and bring back xp loss upon death, not an xp penalty but EQ1 style xp loss, then that will give death a "real bite" and force players to not be so careless or reckless in game. I mentioned this in beta as did many others. XP loss is still by far the best penalty hands down for dying."

What do ya'll think? This means once you level, youll have to get that buffer xp to keep you from delevling if u die immediately after leveling up.

This is how old school MMORPG'ers rolled before they all went easy for the young kids, or went "softcore"

This is the best death penalty system ever, tried and true..

I don' t like to be punished for playing a game. Especially one I paid 80 bucks for and will continue shelling out more cash each month to play. So I'm going to have to disagree with you about this.

Just dying is annoying enough for me in and of itself. To add more to the experience would be akin to kicking me while I'm down.

Plus harsh experience penalties can have a negative effect on gameplay. They cause the player not to take risks or attempt difficult content. This can make the game more boring.

So I think the current consequences of death are more than sufficient the way they are now. I wouldn't support making them any worse.

Chryos

xDonMega

The game is not difficult enough, thats why one month into the game, people are max level. How many years left do we have to play this game? How long will it take for max level people to get bored now?

If anyone deserves a perma ban, it might be those who didnt quite think out longevity on an MMO. We have like another 10 years to go, one month in, max level. How is a harsher death punishment a bad idea?

It smells like WoW or sissified to me.

(My compromise is that it should take longer to gain levels then)

Chryos

Xp loss upon death isnt so bad, at least u wouldnt have to worry about not having enough gold to repair your armor. and as in most games, the better your armor, it more expensive it is to repair. so it's either alot of money or some xp loss. If you reduced the repair cost penalty anymore guess what happens? Youll be playing wow under a different flavor!

Noth

Chryos wrote: »

xDonMega

The game is not difficult enough, thats why one month into the game, people are max level. How many years left do we have to play this game? How long will it take for max level people to get bored now?

If anyone deserves a perma ban, it might be those who didnt quite think out longevity on an MMO. We have like another 10 years to go, one month in, max level. How is a harsher death punishment a bad idea?

It smells like WoW or sissified to me.

(My compromise is that it should take longer to gain levels then)

People are max level because of mob grinding spots in a group safely, without fear of death. XP loss would not change that. You say the game is easy, I have to ask are you in the Veteran content?

Jeremy

Chryos wrote: »

xDonMega

The game is not difficult enough, thats why one month into the game, people are max level. How many years left do we have to play this game? How long will it take for max level people to get bored now?

If anyone deserves a perma ban, it might be those who didnt quite think out longevity on an MMO. We have like another 10 years to go, one month in, max level. How is a harsher death punishment a bad idea?

It smells like WoW or sissified to me.

(My compromise is that it should take longer to gain levels then)

I agree with you that this game moves way too fast.

But I think the right answer for that would be to slow the rate of experience. Not put in experience penalties when players die.

Calaban

No.

I'm a grown up with little time to play. I don't want to be penalized for dying.

Chryos

"People are max level because of mob grinding spots in a group safely, without fear of death. XP loss would not change that. You say the game is easy, I have to ask are you in the Veteran content?"

No, I waste too much time in cyrodil so that doesent help. I'm just saying, it seems like the game should move at a slower flow if it's a never ending MMO. Whats the hurry? Whats the rush? I know I'm not in a hurry and so I don't play to be in a a hurry to make it to the top and have to wait on the game to catch up. People can do whatever they want, it's their money. Whats the point of an online game that expects to be around indefinately if you can max your character in the first month. So next month they release an exspansion and you get to level up 5 or 10 more times... next thing you know, game is out 6 months and everyone is lvl 95. You cant keep leveling your char with xtra stats forever. Its just a trend I see where MMO's are becoming a fast food version of an online game.

Just like an intense love relationship that is so great, it burns out before its supposed to. Im not sure how else to convey what I am trying to say. maybe someone gets me.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

No, just a terrible idea. No ES game ever had xp loss with exception for being jailed, and that was skill loss not level.

Noth

Chryos wrote: »

"People are max level because of mob grinding spots in a group safely, without fear of death. XP loss would not change that. You say the game is easy, I have to ask are you in the Veteran content?"

No, I waste too much time in cyrodil so that doesent help. I'm just saying, it seems like the game should move at a slower flow if it's a never ending MMO. Whats the hurry? Whats the rush? I know I'm not in a hurry and so I don't play to be in a a hurry to make it to the top and have to wait on the game to catch up. People can do whatever they want, it's their money. Whats the point of an online game that expects to be around indefinately if you can max your character in the first month. So next month they release an exspansion and you get to level up 5 or 10 more times... next thing you know, game is out 6 months and everyone is lvl 95. You cant keep leveling your char with xtra stats forever. Its just a trend I see where MMO's are becoming a fast food version of an online game.

Just like an intense love relationship that is so great, it burns out before its supposed to. Im not sure how else to convey what I am trying to say. maybe someone gets me.

Veteran ranks, the level slows down drastically and the content becomes exponentially harder. Even before that leveling in this is slower than nearly every other modern MMO unless you cheese it. ALso the counter to what you have an issue with without killing the casual experience would be horizontal progression, but then all those people that rushed to max to get fat loots would complain because they'd no longer be getting direct upgrades to make them leet.

Asawasa

so this whole idea of bring back the old school exp loss on death is your suggestion to limit people reaching max level much faster than you think they should.

well then why not just take out quests, crafting, guild stores, solo content, voice chat, pvp, and addons. things you would have to add would be npc faction systems just to be able to interact with certain npcs, large scale raids 60+, dragons, and hell levels. also kill stealing and making mob trains was so much fun as well. while your at it let's rename the game to Elder Quest.

Tarwin

Asawasa wrote: »

so this whole idea of bring back the old school exp loss on death is your suggestion to limit people reaching max level much faster than you think they should.

well then why not just take out quests, crafting, guild stores, solo content, voice chat, pvp, and addons. things you would have to add would be npc faction systems just to be able to interact with certain npcs, large scale raids 60+, dragons, and hell levels. also kill stealing and making mob trains was so much fun as well. while your at it let's rename the game to Elder Quest.

That comment makes no sense. OP has a suggestion on one element he liked in another game and it's a good topic for discussion, knowing all well it won't be changed (these are discussion boards after all)

There's voice chat in ESO?

Lanatireb17_ESO

Lets see. i died to the level 40 mannimarco 53 times (because the companions bug out and dont help). add another 15 times i died to the Lyris doppelganger (because the companion bugged out and didnt help). lets say you put in a debt of 10% per death...yep...then i would have lost 6 to 7 levels to those 2 bugged encounters alone, in addition to the 15k i had to pay to respec for mannimarco AND the several thousand i had to pay for repairs. yeah really good idea. not.

Apricot

Back in the old days they used to go down to the river and haul bath water once a week. It made people appreciate being clean that much more. Nowdays you have your sissyfide showers and soap on a rope and what-not. Everyone takes being clean for granted.

Bah. Kids these days.

Chryos

Hey im just sayin. people complain about the high repair cost, and my solution is to bring back xp loss/ xp debt in place of repair cost. Like I said, what happens when you die so much that you cant pay to repair your armor? Cases like this are already happening. Now people are saying repairs costs are too steep. So are we now going to make it easier for them too? It's worth discussing, period.

(I dont really suffer because I'm ranged class so my repair bills are not so bad, I could imagine tho, for those whom dont have an in game income that it would hit them pretty hard if they "die trying" alot)

I'd welcome other solutions.. only one I really got was xp debt so far

Kendaric

Chryos wrote: »

Hey im just sayin. people complain about the high repair cost, and my solution is to bring back xp loss/ xp debt in place of repair cost. Like I said, what happens when you die so much that you cant pay to repair your armor? Cases like this are already happening. Now people are saying repairs costs are too steep. So are we now going to make it easier for them too? It's worth discussing, period.

People have the option to craft new pieces of armour when the cost gets too high. Granted, that won't help much with dropped set pieces but that could be circumvented if we could learn to craft their bonus via research.

An EXP debt like EverQuest II has, I could accept. EXP loss like EverQuest? No.

Chryos

Anyway if we make mmo's any easier we might as well do away with levels, making everyone max level right off the bat, give people as much money as they need, and make a mod so the game can play itself. Where is the learning and growing? Where is the sense of suspense or fear of death in games? xp loss makes you cringe at the sight of death, all i am saying, is thats how exciting it used to be.

Chryos

Lanatireb17_ESO wrote: »

Lets see. i died to the level 40 mannimarco 53 times (because the companions bug out and dont help). add another 15 times i died to the Lyris doppelganger (because the companion bugged out and didnt help). lets say you put in a debt of 10% per death...yep...then i would have lost 6 to 7 levels to those 2 bugged encounters alone, in addition to the 15k i had to pay to respec for mannimarco AND the several thousand i had to pay for repairs. yeah really good idea. not.

Why in the world would you torture yourself like that, for that many times, instead of doing something else until the quest is fixed? Common sense would be to come back and try again later. Thats the price you paid in gold that you had, what about others whom have posted that they stopped playing in frustration because they ran out of money? Thats what others are talking about now in other forums, which led me to talk about this and to see what others think about it.

Chryos

All of you have valid points. This is just my opinion. I have my idea of the perfect game just as you guys have yours. We just have to wait till everyone starts to complain that the endgame is too hard, and that it's not fair for them to be punished because they have neither the skill or the organization and coordination needed for content that is beyond them and that will be made easier too. Then there wont be an endgame. It'll be easy, but with just higher levels and more stats...

Does anyone see the trend yet? Every MMO that started out with some sort of difficulty has been dumbed down to cater to less skillful players or a younger audience. My impression was that this game was more designed for adults.

(This is also why I would like a dedicated open world pvp server for those of us whom are like minded players, and no I'm not a player ganker or a griefer)

xDonMega

Jeremy wrote: »

Chryos wrote: »

xDonMega

The game is not difficult enough, thats why one month into the game, people are max level. How many years left do we have to play this game? How long will it take for max level people to get bored now?

If anyone deserves a perma ban, it might be those who didnt quite think out longevity on an MMO. We have like another 10 years to go, one month in, max level. How is a harsher death punishment a bad idea?

It smells like WoW or sissified to me.

(My compromise is that it should take longer to gain levels then)

I agree with you that this game moves way too fast.

But I think the right answer for that would be to slow the rate of experience. Not put in experience penalties when players die.

Are both of you on drugs?

First off, I played EQ1.. the only reason it made money was because it was the first of its kind.

Also, slowing the rate of experience is a terrible idea, worthy of another perma ban. After questing and grinding to 50, now I have to do quest hell for vet ranks?

And that's not slow enough for you?

The people that are already max level either got in on some exploit, or literally have no lives.

xDonMega

What they need to do is make an MMORPG that you can level from 1-Max strictly from PvP.. it should be the most effective way to level in the game and getting gear.

If you want to PvE you can for titles and trophies, or other bullshiz items that don't mean anything.

That's what people want, not to have to clock in to another job.

DanielMaxwell

over time players will start leaving any game that pursues a punish the player for playing the game death penalty , it is why every game that had that set up has dropped it or gone down to such a small player base that it does not make enough profit to even be a cash shop supported game(i.e. f2p or B2P).

that is also one of the things that helped make WoW so successful early on as they did not pursue a punish the player type of death penalty as they did not delevel a player if they died to often , or remove a players gear when they died . which actualy encouraged players to explore the game and to play the game .