Bring back the old school XP loss ala EQ1

Chryos

@‌Nightblade

I can deal with it and I can also keep asking for it back, after all you are on my thread. You say times have changed, the world has changed and I say game players and people in general have gotten softer, self entitled, and want instant gratification. They also want a pat on the back for failure. Lets reward those who lose to make them feel better. Really it's not just about gaming, it about everything, but more about gaming. There are others albeit a select group that enjoy working a bit harder for a reward.

So, no.. I wont stop asking for it, I'll find what I'm looking for in ZOE in the form of a playstyle challenge option (difficulty slider of some sort), or a dedicated open world pvp server. I'll take open world pvp in place of xp loss as an equal challenge.

ZOE llistens, so far they have. I'll get my cake and eat it too. Then you can thank me.

roflcopter

I would want a proper risk / rewards system whether its built in with what we have or implemented on a open world pvp server.

EXP loss is always easily re grindable and just having a pvp server with no risk / reward will just leave greifers open to doing what they naturally do.

I am not against for what you are asking, I just think they would have to implement it properly and make it unique. Otherwise its the same stuff different game.

Xaei

Chryos wrote: »

If thats the case then there shouldnt be death in the game, yeah there should be severe punishment for dying otherwise it messes up the whole risk vs. reward concept. We talk about how we want immersion, but not when its an inconveince. Another point is the whole, i can teleport anywhere and I get to miss out on the scenery. Game worlds at least seemed larger when you actuallly had to walk around instead now there is a Wayshrine to port around every 5 feet (just an example) So the thrill or rush of dying is gone, because who cares how much you die if you have plenty of gold. The game world is smalller because your instantly tp'd across the zone. All these little things people want to make life easier, really have destroyed the game for some of us. Not that I can do anything about that in this age of instant gratification.

I garuntee you the dungeon experience would have been alot more meaniful and emotional if people really had to be careful for fear of losing some xp or deleveling down a bit. You would have had to play in those days to feel that sense of dread when you die. It gave immersion a real meaning.

It's not about teaching anyone a hard life lesson in a game or making it unenjoyable, it's about a punishment suitable for death, and death being something to be feared in a game (as much as it can be)

This really wasnt that big a deal in the first MMOs, other than from the complainers who complain how "everything" is too hard.

I massively disagree with losing exp in dungeons, especially under the trinity. Without reading a guide, players will die a few times on their first attempt in trying to figure out what's going on and how the fight mechanics work. Under the trinity, say if the healer dies, then the tank often cannot do anything to keep himself alive, and that goes for any group-related content in general, because fighting a boss becomes increasingly more difficult as your party members die one by one and you cannot just disengage the fight.

If you add exp penalties, then you promote two things:
1. Reading guides instead of figuring out things yourself, because of that extra material cost attached to the latter.
2. Elitism. You're a new tank? Get out of here, we don't want to lose EXP.

7788b14_ESO

Chryos wrote: »

@‌Nightblade

I can deal with it and I can also keep asking for it back, after all you are on my thread. You say times have changed, the world has changed and I say game players and people in general have gotten softer, self entitled, and want instant gratification. They also want a pat on the back for failure. Lets reward those who lose to make them feel better. Really it's not just about gaming, it about everything, but more about gaming. There are others albeit a select group that enjoy working a bit harder for a reward.

So, no.. I wont stop asking for it, I'll find what I'm looking for in ZOE in the form of a playstyle challenge option (difficulty slider of some sort), or a dedicated open world pvp server. I'll take open world pvp in place of xp loss as an equal challenge.

ZOE llistens, so far they have. I'll get my cake and eat it too. Then you can thank me.

You should have made this a pole. Enjoy Don Quixote.

Sakiri

Chryos wrote: »

I was into WoW for a time, but I deployed so I got waaay far behind my peers so that was the biggest factor. I deployed during my EQ1 time as well, but when I came back I got a nice surprise for letting my guild use my Druid as a porting mule. They went ahead and got my epic weapon for me. Pretty nice return present I thought

Back in the day where you left account/contact info with guildmates and didnt get hosed.

I remember those. Most of my officers have my cell number even now.

Xaei

Sakiri wrote: »

Chryos wrote: »

I was into WoW for a time, but I deployed so I got waaay far behind my peers so that was the biggest factor. I deployed during my EQ1 time as well, but when I came back I got a nice surprise for letting my guild use my Druid as a porting mule. They went ahead and got my epic weapon for me. Pretty nice return present I thought

Back in the day where you left account/contact info with guildmates and didnt get hosed.

I remember those. Most of my officers have my cell number even now.

I remember back in the days of playing RuneScape, we had a guy who quitted and deposited his bank with us. He came back 5 years later and we still kept all his stuff in its little corner in the clan bank.

Chryos

Thats pretty cool, i am compelled to give you an awesome for that!

Chryos

I created a show support if u want an open world pvp to here. I'd appreciate ur support pls.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/92332/show-your-support-for-a-dedicated-open-world-pvp-server-or-a-harder-oldschool-ruleset-here#latest

Nox_Aeterna

Nope , i would like that they would actually reduce the gear penalty even.

Lets make it simple , i played my share of games where you could die and lose exp + gear pieces , that was annoying , even when we remove the fact others would just kill you to take your gear , it was still freaking bothersome to be tossed back.

Theron75

Lanatireb17_ESO wrote: »

There is a reason why EVERY mmo that had it got rid of it.

Yeah, and here's the reason:

WoW brought MMOs into the "mainstream". Online gaming was no longer for just the hardcore gamers. Stay-at-home moms, executives, neckbeards and basement dwellers, even 12 year old kids played WoW.

In the post-WoW era of online gaming, we have a bunch of whining crybabies who want everything handed to them on a silver platter. Get your ass kicked in PvP? Whine on the forums about class balance and "broken" abilities. Max level take too long? Whine. Not enough content to breeze through? Whine some more. Most of you will never know what a real grind is.

This is one of the biggest reasons why EvE Online has lasted as long as it has, and has a die hard following. It's the last real MMO left. The stuff these game factories churn out now are just multi-player console games or glorified chat programs.

[/end old school rant]

Chryos

@Theron75 Golden Internets for you, and an insightful. Here I thought I was the only one. There is something about having nothing in the beginning of a game, then clawing your way up to the top to reach the end game. Well said.

Chryos

Theron, you write better than I. You should refine your statement and put it into a poll and see if people agree or disagree. I'd be curious to know. I would do it, however this is your insight.

Fruity_Ninja

Lanatireb17_ESO wrote: »

Lets see. i died to the level 40 mannimarco 53 times (because the companions bug out and dont help). add another 15 times i died to the Lyris doppelganger (because the companion bugged out and didnt help). lets say you put in a debt of 10% per death...yep...then i would have lost 6 to 7 levels to those 2 bugged encounters alone, in addition to the 15k i had to pay to respec for mannimarco AND the several thousand i had to pay for repairs. yeah really good idea. not.

How the hell did you die to Mannimarco so much?!

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

i like this idea just because many don't. honestly, yall are saying "i rather pay gold than grind back my exp." really? isnt that comparing fuji apples to granny smiths? a time sink either way, unless you are rolling in cash. yeah they are soft, and it makes players soft. its also a post that makes me laugh about how yall talk about getting 2-3 bubs of blue back. it was an MMO, yall didnt have anyone that could rez? shoot i played a warrior, i always had to carry 100plat for a rez if my FRIENDS in an >MMO< werent on. that was rare though, because i made friends in the US, Australia, and europe, so i had the time zones covered =P.

in all seriousness, i really couldnt care less. either way id have to time sink at some point. i would kinda, sorta, a lil bit, like to see corpse runs come back though lol REAL corpse runs lol.

Lanatireb17_ESO

In the current system the XP you can get in VR zones is tailored EXACTLY to how much you need to level. One zone is pretty much one level. Now if you take away those XP by death there will basically be thousands of VR players who will simply not be able to reach VR10, because monsters dont give anywhere enough xp in VR.

Chryos

Well, the technical stuff would have to be adjusted, which is why, I campaign for an open world pvp/hardcore server. We realize this wouldnt appeal to everyone. Eventually, a game will come out that has the challenge we want, the old school rules we want. I found out that used to be Eve Online, but I missed the mark on that one, because I want to be on the frontlines of a new game. If ZOE cant give us what we want, whether it's because of money or technical reasons, they have to understand that we will jump ship to the next game that has exactly what we are looking for. That next game might be from UOs orginator for example. It's not just 50 or 60 of us that want this. It's alot more than you think. Some people just dont do forums. I hear "well your just a small niche of people" and your perspective doesent matter. Well, someone is going to eventually cater to our niche and make some money. We even state we would pay more for this specialized service. So, this could be ZOE or it could be the next guy.

Lanatireb17_ESO

Who the heck is the WE you always talk about. So far in this whole thread there were maximum 3 people who agreed with you, all others find it terrible.

Calgrissom

I Can tell the OP has yet to experience being in a ESO Open world dungeon and having a dozen or so Mobs trained into his AE by another group. I played EQ I was actually one of the top ranked raiders in the world up until the end of planes of power. I don't miss that system one bit. Other Peoples stupidity was what generally caused deaths in EQ1. Also there is much randomness in the veteran levels of ESO. Some mobs will Just strait one/two shot you in melee if you don't know there special abilities. Learning non raid encounters with such a heavy penalty would be a bad idea for this type of game.

OP what Level and class are you this makes a huge difference in ESO perspectives.

Chryos

Lanatireb17_ESO wrote: »

Who the heck is the WE you always talk about. So far in this whole thread there were maximum 3 people who agreed with you, all others find it terrible.

"We" are those of us whom are not you. There's others across various forum threads. Incidently "we" = more than one.

I can break out a dictionary for you too if you would like. Or does that satisfy your snide remark?

Bolo_Bob

so when i die to a lag spike because i cant even draw my weapon or get stuck holding block, then i should lose xp....

or bugged allies in solo quests, plus while the bugged ally stands there the enemy runs at me with no animation like its just following me around but clearly is attacking because my health pool is going down, i should lose xp...

clearly i suck and should be punished for dying in these situations, which already sucks i have to spend a soul gem/run all the way back, do repairs, or make new gear sooner because it was clearly my lack of skills.

sure i die sometimes to normal situations, but 70% to 90% when i die its due to the above and usually in zone chat there are pages of people saying " OMG LAG!!".
so clearly its just me getting these lag spikes and my terrible few month old pimped gaming rig.

besides all of that, people would run out of quests in their level of zone, so then we would have regular players setting up even more grind spots just level to get to the next zone.
which is bad enough already with these patrolling bot trains farming quest area mobs.

anyway as opinions go, that is mine at this very moment.

reggielee

oh hells to the no................................. that would totally negate my strategy of dying repeatedly but taking out one mob at a time so I can finally complete the 'insert dungeon, storyline boss, over lvl pve content or epic mob' as a solo semi weak healer lololol

Chryos

"so when i die to a lag spike because i cant even draw my weapon or get stuck holding block, then i should lose xp...."

Well, yeah you have to take the good with the bad, but the bad is rare. I have experienced that before. But, I should have made myself clearer in mentioning that rezzes from other players give u back most of the xp, so you only eat about 10% of the death. Lag spikes, rollbacks and common MMO server glitches are just part MMO life. It's something you just have to deal with and take it in stride. But we cant do that anymore because we want everything given to us because we are paying customers. For me it just "feels" like everyone is going soft nowdays, and so the game companies are dishing out lesser quality MMOs.

That is just how I feel.

Chryos

The lag issues will get better tho eventually, eventually to a point to where they are almost nonexistant.

Now, I should add to be fair that I live in Dallas, so I am not feeling the pain that most are in terms of connectivity. Hopefully, it will be worked out.

The idea of always using the excuse of "if I die due to a lag spike and lose xp" well, that doesent make me as upset as it makes other I suppose. In my mind I'll be thinking (explicitive) but it's never made me wish for it to go away.

I realize I am a dinosaur in that line of thinking, and maybe one of the last whom feel like the MMO industry has gone to crap due to catering to people who whine about everything is too hard. But, I have got to say my piece and hope I find enough like minded people out there to (in what is my opinion) save the MMO industry from being another single player easy cookie cutter game.

Now I love this game dont get me wrong, and it can be challenging. I also know MMOs are designed these days to be played solo or group. I just like it better when there is more of a reliance of people working together. Now in the public dungeons, you have people piggybacking or leeching and not grouping, but getting all the rewards. I solo and dungeon crawl alot so I get people following me around to get their one shot in so they can get loot or xp etc. Things (the community) didnt used to be like that. Things have changed, players have changed, and not for the better either.

Bolo_Bob

quote "For me it just "feels" like everyone is going soft nowdays, and so the game companies are dishing out lesser quality MMOs."

to me it seems like console design for PC games is killing the PC gaming world.

but also rezzes cost gold, or significant time to farm a few soul gems thanks to bot boss spam and now boss loot timers.
in most other mmo's rezzes didnt cost anything but a skill recharge timer, or an easily crafted item out of very cheap easy to come by resources.

i would kill a boss some when i 1st got to a new zone to accumulate about 20 soul gems for my level, then i would revive people all over the zone when i seen them dead.
but now i see dead players and im like "to bad bud i gotta recharge my weapon" and only have 1 or 2 soul gems atm.

but ya i see what your getting at man and im not trying to get all crazy or hostile about the topic, im just trying to provide viable counter points to why i dont agree.

Chryos

"to me it seems like console design for PC games is killing the PC gaming world."

This. Now initially I thought maybe they are trying to merge console and pc gamers to one server, to which I would rather not have because it's like adding a whole bunch of children into your personal playground.

Or maybe the trend is using a console style gamepad trying to attract console gamers or what have you. i definately do not play with a gampad, i use mouse and keyboard and thats what i like.

For this this, the simplified everything because of the immersion factor, so thats fine. another reason is that i guess the mechanics of no cooldowns means the price you pay is less slots for skills to be at the ready. im kinda torn tho, i do miss my macros for different situations.

i guess i should look at the other ways this game is difficult, like the costs from adventuring.

My big gripe is that, once your out of money, your kinda stuck, as far as that goes, but maybe not to a point where u cant play. i have already seen threads where people quit in frustration because they are out of money to repair/recharge etc. this was actually my suggestion for a solution to those people and it turned into a bigger debate that prompted me to see what everyone else thought.

(gave u an insightful btw lol)

Lanatireb17_ESO

Seriously. Dont make it sound like there is this huge majority of people who want it your way. Reality check: 95% of the people posting here hate it. Check your own thread. So far i found you and maximum three others that say its ok, everyone else is bombarding you with arguments against it that you keep ignoring.

Man, im playing mmos before they even had graphics, and the worst bane of every mmo was xp debt. There is NOTHING good about it. YOU like it, maybe 2 or three others. hell. If you want an xp debt, then when you die turn the game off for 2 hours, effectively stealing you 2 hours of xp. But dont try to force your ideas on the majority (check this thread. it IS the majority of people who DONT want it). No matter what wacko argument you bring about 'your people' not coming to the forums. Hell, my people also dont, and they like to wrap pink ribbons around their ankles, so for the sake of better gaming, everyone must now wear pink ribbons. The majority clearly wants it.

Morthur

.

GreySix

Chryos wrote: »

I wrote this in another post. Gear repair is in no way something that causes me pure dread when I die in game. We need a real punishment for death to keep it real. People wont take the same risks then:

<SNIP>

Weak sauce!

Want to keep it real? If your character dies, you lose everything, and you start off from scratch, as in Eve Online.

Anything else is weak and pathetic. Unless you're losing three thousand bucks of real money when your character dies, you're a milk-drinking lightweight.

Edit: Now that I think about it, even that's too weak! If your character dies, ZOS charges you $15 and you have to re-subscribe, build a brand new character and start from scratch - after a ten-day "You suck!" cooling off period.

Theron75

Lanatireb17_ESO wrote: »

Seriously. Dont make it sound like there is this huge majority of people who want it your way. Reality check: 95% of the people posting here hate it.

...Hell, my people also dont, and they like to wrap pink ribbons around their ankles, so for the sake of better gaming, everyone must now wear pink ribbons. The majority clearly wants it.

Reality check: forum posters typically represent less than 10% of a game's player base. Your opinion about majority/minority is hereby invalidated. I will agree with your second point, though. Most of you probably do like to wear pink ribbons.

Sissy Gamer achievement = unlocked.

Xaei

I'm not quite sure if they actually can introduce a different servers with those rules. Especially if they introduce raids (aka Trials).

It's not just the MMOs themselves that moved away from death penalties, but entire design philosophies. I remember back in the day, death was actually a pretty rare thing in a MMO. These days, death is a part of the learning experience in end-game content. In most raids on our first try, my guilds would spend hours and hours dying over and over again just learning the mechanics. You are expected to die, many times in fact, so if you add death penalties to most of today's games, it leads to so much frustration that the game just becomes unplayable.