Please Eliminate Forced-Solo Instances - Thanks

GreySix

Elirienne wrote: »

No support. Please keep as is. This is an ESO game first, and mmo second, not the other way around. Please do not force us to group, ever.

Where am I advocating anyone forcing grouping?

I'll wait, while you never find it.

Elirienne

GreySix wrote: »

Elirienne wrote: »

No support. Please keep as is. This is an ESO game first, and mmo second, not the other way around. Please do not force us to group, ever.

Where am I advocating anyone forcing grouping?

I'll wait, while you never find it.

I didn't say a word about you. Just added my opinion. Which people do on online forums , funnily enough.

GreySix

Elirienne wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Elirienne wrote: »

No support. Please keep as is. This is an ESO game first, and mmo second, not the other way around. Please do not force us to group, ever.

Where am I advocating anyone forcing grouping?

I'll wait, while you never find it.

I didn't say a word about you. Just added my opinion. Which people do on online forums , funnily enough.

Gotcha, my apologies then - your post came right after my last reply, so...

Note: I do not advocate forced-anything in this game. All should be a choice in ESO in instances, and that means if you want to group two individuals, you should be able to do so. If you want to solo the instance, you should be able to do so.

Choice is good. Lack of choice sucks.

Elirienne

I think you are right in saying that choice is good but only to some extent. If we make everything a mater of choice, then this game will morph into one of the million mmp clones already on the market. I really believe that games should be kept individual. And please do not forget that in every mmo, there always is a percentage of players who play it as a solo game. In wow, minimal %. In swtor, slightly larger %. In Eso - much much larger percentage than in any other mmo.

I really do not want this game to start introducing the famous "choice dependant" features - solo mission grouping, nameplates, chat bubbles etc etc. Think about it. You are the soul shriven, the soulless one, the chosen one who escaped coldharbour. Not you and your wife. Not you and your friend you meet in Malabal Tor whilst saving elves. Keep the story clean and immersive (please do not hate on the word - like it or not, ESO games are played mostly for immersion.), and if someone really wants the mmo elements, well, there is pvp for them.

GreySix

Elirienne wrote: »

I think you are right in saying that choice is good but only to some extent. If we make everything a mater of choice, then this game will morph into one of the million mmp clones already on the market. I really believe that games should be kept individual. And please do not forget that in every mmo, there always is a percentage of players who play it as a solo game. In wow, minimal %. In swtor, slightly larger %. In Eso - much much larger percentage than in any other mmo.

And nothing I've recommended would alter your ability to solo the very same instances you can now solo.

Elirienne wrote: »

I really do not want this game to start introducing the famous "choice dependant" features - solo mission grouping, nameplates, chat bubbles etc etc. Think about it. You are the soul shriven, the soulless one, the chosen one who escaped coldharbour. Not you and your wife. Not you and your friend you meet in Malabal Tor whilst saving elves. Keep the story clean and immersive (please do not hate on the word - like it or not, ESO games are played mostly for immersion.), and if someone really wants the mmo elements, well, there is pvp for them.

Then don't have the intros. If someone groups with two folks, they see the same thing solo instances see now. No need to overcomplicate it.

Sleepwalker

GreySix wrote: »

Know you're being sarcastic, but thanks anyway... And I'll wish you good luck when you and the other five percent of "hardcore" players who make up the base of ESO are alone and unfraid (and of course the bots too) here are the only ones holding the game afloat.

Sigh... you assume things about me incorrectly yet again. Not sure whether you're being deliberately provocative or are just misinterpreting everything I'm saying. I am not hardcore over any game, nor did I ever claim to be. It's you and your wife's lack of perseverance and commitment that I'm commenting on. Never really been a fan of people who give 25% to things in life and complain when they fail. But hey, those types of values aren't required in the slightest back on SWTOR. Hence, a sincere good luck when you inevitably return there.

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

In all honesty it seems like this isn't the game for you and your wife. Its not going to change...

I tried to explain this to him logically. He doesn't want to hear reason. He thinks he and his personal army of players (95%... his exact delusional percentage...) exactly like him are keeping this game afloat. If we don't cater to his desires, we'll be alone and "unfraid"... whatever that means.

Get out while you can. Nothing valuable to see in this thread really.

Apricot

Sleepwalker wrote: »

Sigh... you assume things about me incorrectly yet again. Not sure whether you're being deliberately provocative or are just misinterpreting everything I'm saying. I am not hardcore over any game, nor did I ever claim to be. It's you and your wife's lack of perseverance and commitment that I'm commenting on. Never really been a fan of people who give 25% to things in life and complain when they fail. But hey, those types of values aren't required in the slightest back on SWTOR. Hence, a sincere good luck when you inevitably return there.

Oh do get over yourself. If this game weren't the POS it is maybe more players would take it half-way serious. As it is it's a freaking joke - to hardcore and casual gamers alike. Why would anyone sane commit themselves to this piece of garbage?

What big, brass cojones you must have to even mention "commitment" and "perseverance" in the same breath as this game.

Sleepwalker

Apricot wrote: »

Oh do get over yourself. If this game weren't the POS it is maybe more players would take it half-way serious. As it is it's a freaking joke...

You honestly don't belong in these forums. You hate this game, so your opinion on it is moot. Why you're even posting here is beyond me. Hate the game? Go do something else and don't follow it's forums, clown.

GreySix

Sleepwalker wrote: »

Sigh... you assume things about me incorrectly yet again.

No. I knew you were being an overt jackass, but I humored you anyway.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

I tried to explain this to him logically.

... and you failed miserably, defaulting to the usual tired and used-up excuses, as I fully expected you would.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

He doesn't want to hear reason.

I would, had you offered any.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

He thinks he and his personal army of players (95%... his exact delusional percentage...) exactly like him are keeping this game afloat. If we don't cater to his desires, we'll be alone and "unfraid"... whatever that means.

... and so you revert to a string of logical fallacies to lengthy to for me to bother to list.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

Nothing valuable to see in this thread really.

Certainly not from you.

Apricot

Sleepwalker wrote: »

You honestly don't belong in these forums.

Maybe so, maybe not. That's not up to you.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

You hate this game, so your opinion on it is moot.

You like this game, so your opinion on it is moot.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

Why you're even posting here is beyond me. Hate the game? Go do something else and don't follow it's forums, clown.

When you pay my salary you can tell me what to do, dummypants.

Melian

GreySix wrote: »

Note: I do not advocate forced-anything in this game. All should be a choice in ESO in instances, and that means if you want to group two individuals, you should be able to do so. If you want to solo the instance, you should be able to do so.

Choice is good. Lack of choice sucks.

What if I want to group 40 people for a 4 person dungeon? What if I want to quest in Cyrodil, but be exempt from pvp?

Melian

Apricot wrote: »

You like this game, so your opinion on it is moot.

Apricot wrote: »

When you pay my salary you can tell me what to do, dummypants.

We like this game, so we pay the devs' salaries and can tell them what to do.

Sakiri

LadyLothi wrote: »

I can actually understand both sides of the argument here. Many of those who loved Skyrim wanted to share that wonderful gaming experience with on or two friends. Not more.
People who thought like this (I count myself among them) did never truly want a full-blown MMO with all it's negative aspects (bots and goldsellers among them).

So I can understand that someone who wants to share an experience with a friend / partner / family member will be disappointed by the solo instances.

However it is this:

Second, solo quests both test your own skill and advance a questline you are on.

which has me reconciled to the concept of solo instances.

For me, they are a checkpoint at which I can see if I'm fit to progress in the game, if I have mastered the necessary skills, techniques and strategies.

With my sorc, I alsmost despaired when I had to do gutsripper, with my tank I almost scrapped the character entirely because I could not get past Norion.
In both cases, solutions could be found that have been invaluable for further gameplay.

So to all those whose friend is on the brink of giving up altogether because of "undoable" solo instances:
help them out by sitting beside them when then play, try to figure out together what goes wrong, what should be changed, etc.
This way, it's still a shared experience and it still gives both of you a sense of accomplishment when you have found out how to beat the instance.

Cant sit next to and walk someone through fights that lives on the other side of the world and wont so much as get in voice chat for realtime discussion.

Known the sod for almost 10 years and hes still incredibly self concious about his English. Saddens me.

Sakiri

Sleepwalker wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

...but when she hits content she deems too hard (which means her character getting killed more than once and my not being able to assist), she'll just quit...

Wow... just... wow...

Bye. Good luck with SWTOR.

You know this game was also made for the rpg player. You know, the ones that can set the difficulty slider to "I suck"?

I may play that same game on legendary with insmithed weapons and found/bought poisons/potions(Im not one shotting anything here) but that doesnt mean everyone does.

Id wager most TES gamers run with the slider down the whole way if theyre not the restoglitchers. You know, the ones that made OP pots so they could bypass most of the abysmal combat and get to the story?

Overly difficult or complex/reactionary fights in a main story quest is stupid, ESPECIALLY harvesters. In fact, theres better ways of excluding "fails" from your htoups than excluding them from VR content because they cant beat the main questline.

Ill wager there will be changes after they tally up the reasons players left. When players outlevel a quest before doing it to make it easier that tells me something. And its not good.

GreySix

Sakiri wrote: »

You know this game was also made for the rpg player. You know, the ones that can set the difficulty slider to "I suck"?

lol

Made my night with that one, my friend!

Chirru

Elirienne wrote: »

I really do not want this game to start introducing the famous "choice dependant" features - solo mission grouping, nameplates, chat bubbles etc etc. Think about it. You are the soul shriven, the soulless one, the chosen one who escaped coldharbour. Not you and your wife. Not you and your friend you meet in Malabal Tor whilst saving elves. Keep the story clean and immersive (please do not hate on the word - like it or not, ESO games are played mostly for immersion.), and if someone really wants the mmo elements, well, there is pvp for them.

"I really do not want...." That is your main argument, is it not? Well; I really do want... CHOICE.

"Think about it. You are the soul shriven...." Yes, I did think about it. I do not like it and I do not care about it. Me thinks the quest is silly from start to end. This is my personal opinion and it differs from yours. I know that the Developers of the Game will not accept my opinion. Likewise...I do not accept your opinion and your argument on this point.

"...if someone really wants the mmo elements..." Sorry...this is supposed to be an MMO. It is you who is in the wrong game if you insist this is a Single Player Game."

Facts:

This is an MMO.

One can RP in an MMO.

Any MMO has and can have a Single Player part in it as long as it is not forced down the throat of everyone.

PvP is NOT forced on everyone. You do PvP, or you don't. There is a choice.

Features in other MMO's can be turned On and can be turned Off. This includes nameplates and chat-bubbles and a lot of other things like group-invites and guild invites and team-speak and camera and...and. Those who like these things have them on...those who dislike these things turn them off. It is as simple as that.

Example. A certain, well know game, has world PvP. Those who like it have a choice to turn this feature on. Those who do NOT like it, turn it off. Same with dueling and so on.

Fact: Having a choice means you can exercise the freedom of Choice
Fact: Having no choice is simply the dictatorship of a few.
Fact: the argument I often get; "if you don't like it go somewhere else,"is a childish argument.
Fact: Freedom is a choice also. Either you fight for it or someone else will make the decision for you.

How did the prophet say it; "Any indecision will be come a decision...." How true. Sitting on a fence, in time, will be a decision we make.

Point: this game must allow for Player Choices. How much choice? This is a decision the developers will make in time. Until then however I will continue to advocate my decision for CHOICE.

Sakiri

GreySix wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

You know this game was also made for the rpg player. You know, the ones that can set the difficulty slider to "I suck"?

lol

Made my night with that one, my friend!

I know plenty that do, too. Story > challenge. TES games are interactive books, fantasy novels you control.

martinb16_ESO80

What if I want to group 40 people for a 4 person dungeon? What if I want to quest in Cyrodil, but be exempt from pvp?

You are exaggerating and you know it. A dungeon IS already group content, as is Cyrodiil. How you could take our suggestion to allow players to group for solo-content and come up with this counter argument is completely beyond me.

So far you have not given one valuable argument that shows how this choice would affect your gaming experience. Also, having this choice would mean there is less need to "dumb down" your beloved challenges, would that not be a thing you would like?

Elirienne

@Chirru, you can keep repeating the word "fact", that will not make a compelling argument here. I can reverse the whole thing for you:
Fact: This is an ESO game: a RPG. Story is important and multiplayer in the main story would break it. Fact: This game is a vision of bethesda and zenimax, it's THEIR game, which you buy and enjoy, or buy and don't enjoy, or do not buy. Any of these three options are available to you, and this is the absolute, total and complete extent of your "rights", "entitlements" and choices.

I am not going to Battlefield forums crying for third person view and personalisation (there might be an option though, wouldn't know). I am also not writing to Blizzard demanding that end story conversations give me choices and different outcomes like in Teso. I am not crying on stor forums asking for flying mounts. Even though all of these are thing thats I would quite like in games.

When will people understand that this is a different game, and that it really should not be a clone of anything else?

I completely agree with your "Point". "The game must allow for player choices."
And it does. You get so crazy many choices that just think about it and your head starts spinning. You choose how you look, who you fight, how you fight, what you craft, whether you team up, whether you explore, You choose your mount, your outfit, who you help, you shape the world around you by decisions. In short - You choose who you want to be within THEIR story. It is not your story. You are free to dislike it, but thats the extent of your "freedom" in it. But if you are so much pro "choice", then where does it stop in your book? Can , as someone said above, 40 men do 4 man dungeons with 50% of them getting purple loot? Why not It's a choice, no?

You keep advocating errr, capital letters CHOICE, and err, another capital letters FREEDOM because these are cool and empowering words whereas in fact your choice and freedom comes from a much simpler place: your head. Like it? Enjoy. Dislike it? Do something you do enjoy. And let THEM have THEIR choice with THEIR game (you know the one THEY dreamed up, worked on, designed and released for YOU to enjoy...) and let them have their choices. And their freedom. And their vision.

*Goes back to play*

Alpha_Protocol

My wife and I have leveled our mains together from 1-46... and will continue to do so until VR10+.

Having to solo our personal stories in Tamriel has been enjoyable. My wife and I have been playing mmo's together for eight years. She's a seasoned player and knows her stuff. She studies her characters skills and reads up on all theorycrafting from the community. But despite all of that she has come out of this a much better player from having to overcome difficult solo encounters.

So the rest of you want to take a raid party to complete what are supposed to be personal triumphs? Because that's exactly what would start happening.

"LFM level 30 Harborage, pst!"

Maybe just try a little harder?

GreySix

Elirienne wrote: »

<SNIP>
*Goes back to play*

In all of that, we failed to see a logical argument against allowing player choice on whether to group two people or not in currently solo-only instances.

What we did see is a dressing up of the usual, "Game designers designed it the way it is, and if you don't like it then STFU and play something else." That of course pre-assumes (quite falsely I might add) that player input never (or even rarely) modifies MMOs.

Do you have one - a logical argument against player choice, that is? If you do, then you'll have been the very first to successfully present one.

So consider it a personal challenge from me to you: I dare you to present a logical argument against allowing players to choice to maintain grouping in instances where it is currently prohibited. I double-dog dare you.

Here is a handy reference in regard to logical debate, in case you need it.

GreySix

Alpha_Protocol wrote: »

My wife and I have leveled our mains together from 1-46... and will continue to do so until VR10+.

Good for you; glad you're enjoying the ride.

Alpha_Protocol wrote: »

Having to solo our personal stories in Tamriel has been enjoyable. My wife and I have been playing mmo's together for eight years. She's a seasoned player and knows her stuff. She studies her characters skills and reads up on all theorycrafting from the community. But despite all of that she has come out of this a much better player from having to overcome difficult solo encounters.

Again, good for you.

Alpha_Protocol wrote: »

So the rest of you want to take a raid party to complete what are [to me] supposed to be personal triumphs?

No. We want to remain grouped throughout the game.

Period.

Alpha_Protocol wrote: »

Because that's exactly what would start happening.

... and even were that the case, how would such adversely impact you and the choice you and your wife maintain to continue solo quests?

Alpha_Protocol wrote: »

"LFM level 30 Harborage, pst!"

Yeah, I don't know what that means. But I'm in my mid-40s, so perhaps that's some slang I never learned.

Alpha_Protocol wrote: »

Maybe just try a little harder?

Ah yes, the usual, "you're doing it wrong, so L2P" - figured that was coming.

So ... once again, ZERO logical points brought forth to maintain the illusion that single-player instancing should be enforced.

Still waiting for even one of you - just ONE of you - to raise a logical argument against my case. Heck, I may even consider offering a cash award, since I know I ask the impossible.

Sakiri

You guys are all missing the point greysix is making.

It doesnt farking matter if either of them can beat it solo.

THEY DONT WANT TO.

And honestly, forced solo mandatory content imo, is BS, especially with how social and group focused mmos can be.

Would you rather people learn how to function in groups or learn how to tunnel vision down that boss? Youre mostly getting the latter.

Ysne58

I still have not seen a single rational and logical reason to not allow grouping in forced solo instances. Personally, I'd much rather see grouping than further nerfing of these bosses. It takes the challenge away from those who do like doing this solo which just simply is not fair to them. So instead of telling us to go somewhere else, you should be supporting the request to remove the forcing to solo in these quests.

Sleepwalker

Oh boy, personal attacks left and right now, ha! I had started to cut and paste stuff for a reply, but there are way too many people slicing up my posts and commenting on single sentences as they see fit and I honestly don't have anymore energy for this. I'm a little hung over and just can't argue over this minor stuff. Sorry. *snicker* Someone called me "dummypants". I'm way too proud of that right now, lol!

Anyway, goodbye derailed thread that will have no impact on the game. It was fun and sad at the same time. Maybe if life becomes a boring void I'll come to stir up some more nonsense. Later guys. Have fun failing at easy stuff in life.

Melian wrote: »

What if I want to group 40 people for a 4 person dungeon? What if I want to quest in Cyrodil, but be exempt from pvp?

Except you. You're cool. Hi5

EDIT:
Wait... just saw this one and couldn't resist...

Sakiri wrote: »

You guys are all missing the point greysix is making.

It doesnt farking matter if either of them can beat it solo.

THEY DONT WANT TO.

Ohhhhhh! I get it now! A couple of players don't want to do something on the game... so Zenimax should get rid of it. YES! Logic! How did I miss that? They should totally do this for all of the complaint threads... Like all of them!

Jesus... XD

Sakiri

So, because you like to solo in games means we should all be forced to solo in games.

Still have no logical reason for why not.

GreySix

Sleepwalker wrote: »

Ohhhhhh! I get it now!

No. You don't get it. You never did.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

A couple of players don't want to do something on the game... so Zenimax should get rid of it.

Really? Post ... anywhere ... that I or others stated that those who currently solo instances should be prevented from doing so.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

YES! Logic! How did I miss that?

Why by employing a Straw Man logical fallacy of course:

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B [that would be you] presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.

Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

But then you've done nothing up to this point other than employ logical fallacies anyway, so we really shouldn't be surprised that you continue to do so.

Nor are we.

Syntse

Sleepwalker wrote: »

Ohhhhhh! I get it now! A couple of players don't want to do something on the game... so Zenimax should get rid of it.

You would be surprised how many this couple of players you mention actually might be. Since there are no real numbers one just has to sit down guess. My hunch is that it's more than 1% of sales/subscription revenue for Zenimax.

Chirru

Elirienne wrote: »

@Chirru, you can keep repeating the word "fact", that will not make a compelling argument here. I can reverse the whole thing for you:
Fact: This is an ESO game: a RPG. Story is important and multiplayer in the main story would break it. Fact: This game is a vision of bethesda and zenimax, it's THEIR game, which you buy and enjoy, or buy and don't enjoy, or do not buy. Any of these three options are available to you, and this is the absolute, total and complete extent of your "rights", "entitlements" and choices.

I am not going to Battlefield forums crying for third person view and personalisation (there might be an option though, wouldn't know). I am also not writing to Blizzard demanding that end story conversations give me choices and different outcomes like in Teso. I am not crying on stor forums asking for flying mounts. Even though all of these are thing thats I would quite like in games.

When will people understand that this is a different game, and that it really should not be a clone of anything else?

I completely agree with your "Point". "The game must allow for player choices."
And it does. You get so crazy many choices that just think about it and your head starts spinning. You choose how you look, who you fight, how you fight, what you craft, whether you team up, whether you explore, You choose your mount, your outfit, who you help, you shape the world around you by decisions. In short - You choose who you want to be within THEIR story. It is not your story. You are free to dislike it, but thats the extent of your "freedom" in it. But if you are so much pro "choice", then where does it stop in your book? Can , as someone said above, 40 men do 4 man dungeons with 50% of them getting purple loot? Why not It's a choice, no?

You keep advocating errr, capital letters CHOICE, and err, another capital letters FREEDOM because these are cool and empowering words whereas in fact your choice and freedom comes from a much simpler place: your head. Like it? Enjoy. Dislike it? Do something you do enjoy. And let THEM have THEIR choice with THEIR game (you know the one THEY dreamed up, worked on, designed and released for YOU to enjoy...) and let them have their choices. And their freedom. And their vision.

*Goes back to play*

That is (to me) very clearly the Dictator speaking. You got your personal vision of the Game and you use (or shall I say, misuse) the Game Developers credentials to support your view.

Quite honestly, I have no clue what is going on in the minds of the people who created the game, and neither do you unless you had any part in the development of the game.

I know however that this game was marketed as a Multi-player game with huge PvP battles and also with a story that also could be played solo if one chose to do so.
No one, again, No One, wants to take away from your enjoyment of playing the tale solo in all its aspects. However, you (for reasons unknown to me) ardently fight against the opinion of people who hold a opinion opposing your opinion.

The very notion that; you overcoming a challenge solo and me going through a challenge with a friend is somehow encumbering your enjoyment of the game, is a bogus argument. So I conclude that you either argue from a point of pride or you argue for the sake of arguing.

Pride: I did it SOLO, and you could not.
Argument: I am against it because someone else is for it.

That you now to push the developers of the game ahead of you as a shield, in my opinion, shows clearly that you have no real arguments of your own.

As for me, I do not think that any further arguments anyone can bring forth will change your opinion on this subject and so I will not argue any longer. Indeed, I do not need to argue any longer since (in the real world) the paying customer votes with their credit card.
If the position you argue from is valid, the game will not change. If the position I argue from is valid the game will change, for the Accountants behind the scenes will have stronger arguments than either of us.

SteveCampsOut

Alpha_Protocol wrote: »

Maybe just try a little harder?

No offense to you and your awesome wife, but maybe you could learn to, oh you know, give some helpful advice to people who struggle instead of belittling their efforts? I died to Molag Bal for 16 hour straight trying every combination of skills I had but it wasn't until I was given some good advice and respec'd to add two necessary skills that I succeeded in defeating him. Sometimes, it just takes a community!