Please Eliminate Forced-Solo Instances - Thanks

GreySix

Srugzal wrote: »

I wouldn't say forced solo, I'd say solo-by-design. Which suggests a question. Suppose they allowed grouping into the main story line. How would that work, exactly, as far as the story, you the Soul Shriven hero that defeats Molag Bal and saves Tamriel? How could it be made into a group experience? See, the story is important here, not like in other MMOs where questing is more about quick leveling and into the endgame than about driving a story--or so I've been told.

Can see your point of view, but see what I wrote above re. SWTOR. My wife's character had to neutralize the Sith Emperor, which was likely solo-by-design. Yet I was able to phase in and help her.

She has a hard enough time with online games as it is, and my ability to be with her - even if my character takes butt-whippings with her - keeps her playing. That's important to me, and my suspicion is that its important to many others.

Now, note carefully that I'm not advocating eliminating the ability to solo such instances, so you and others can feel free to knock yourselves out.

Srugzal wrote: »

And it's not like you can actually do the quest all in one go, hours of enforced solitude as it were. Every 5 levels you have a single quest with a boss fight at the end. It seems to me to be an extreme position. For one thing, group boss fights are a LOT easier. If they buffed the fights to make them challenging to groups (like the Undaunted Dungeons), then they'd be essentially unplayable by single players. Now you want two different bosses, depending on whether it's a solo player or not? What if the solo player calls in reinforcements? What then? Do you see why this is just an untenable idea? It's impossible to maintain the integrity of the story and make these quests multiplayer.

Then increase the boss HP/MP/whatever in accordance with the second phased individual, if its a sense of fairness you seek.

ChairGraveyard

Srugzal wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Covarnis wrote: »

To my understanding, solo instances are minimal (3 quest lines each 5-7 levels).

The main quest line is forced-solo. That is unacceptable.

I wouldn't say forced solo, I'd say solo-by-design. Which suggests a question. Suppose they allowed grouping into the main story line. How would that work, exactly, as far as the story, you the Soul Shriven hero that defeats Molag Bal and saves Tamriel? How could it be made into a group experience? See, the story is important here, not like in other MMOs where questing is more about quick leveling and into the endgame than about driving a story--or so I've been told.

And it's not like you can actually do the quest all in one go, hours of enforced solitude as it were. Every 5 levels you have a single quest with a boss fight at the end. It seems to me to be an extreme position. For one thing, group boss fights are a LOT easier. If they buffed the fights to make them challenging to groups (like the Undaunted Dungeons), then they'd be essentially unplayable by single players. Now you want two different bosses, depending on whether it's a solo player or not? What if the solo player calls in reinforcements? What then? Do you see why this is just an untenable idea? It's impossible to maintain the integrity of the story and make these quests multiplayer.

Considering that your entire argument hinges on the thinly veiled straw man of "You all want to rebalance the main quests for group play", which this thread is NOT about at all, no your argument makes zero sense and is actually logically invalid.

This is about being able to join someone in their quests to help them when they are blocked.

If they have to dress the other player as a mercenary, or whatever, big deal.

The fact is that many on this thread pay for TWO accounts every month, and this issue puts that revenue in jeopardy.

If YOU don't want a friend helping you in the main/Guild quests, don't. Don't act like that feature existing will ruin the game for you or anyone else, because that is obviously rank freaking nonsense.

SexyVette07

Considering the OP argues with anyone who disagrees with them, this post would be better heard by submitting feedback in game. The GM's rarely acknowledge threads like these.

FYI, if you are still having problems with Doshia, after its been nerfed half a dozen times, im going to forewarn you that this game probably isnt for you. Once you get to Veteran content, it gets much harder FYI.

Im not trying to be mean if this comes across that way, it really is just a warning. The game forces you to get better to progress to max level.

Theron75

Judging from some of the OP's other posts, he doesn't want MMOs to be much of a challenge. He's clearly in it for the social interaction with his wife, and is part of the MMO = glorified chat/ERP program crowd. That said...

On one hand, I agree. This is an MMO after all, which means player choice. It's one of the few things that separates us from the animals. If he wants an option to group for solo content, that option should exist.

On the other hand, these solo quests are designed as a training tool as previously mentioned. This isn't SWTOR, which is probably the most ez-mode casual MMO of all time.

GreySix

Theron75 wrote: »

Judging from some of the OP's other posts, he doesn't want MMOs to be much of a challenge. He's clearly in it for the social interaction with his wife, and is part of the MMO = glorified chat/ERP program crowd. That said...

You're partially right. I want the option to group with my wife in instances, which would of course reduce the challenge, vice those going such instances alone.

Done the way I'm asking, it would impact the challenge for those wanting to go it alone not at all.

Sakiri

Theron75 wrote: »

Judging from some of the OP's other posts, he doesn't want MMOs to be much of a challenge. He's clearly in it for the social interaction with his wife, and is part of the MMO = glorified chat/ERP program crowd. That said...

On one hand, I agree. This is an MMO after all, which means player choice. It's one of the few things that separates us from the animals. If he wants an option to group for solo content, that option should exist.

On the other hand, these solo quests are designed as a training tool as previously mentioned. This isn't SWTOR, which is probably the most ez-mode casual MMO of all time.

Except they dont train you for anything.

Soon as its done you go back to facetanking everything with your buddy.

Overworld content you can always have a friend for. Thats going to make vet ranks a joke for many. These solo quests dont teach you crap when you dont have to apply it elsewhere.

And I *still* take offense to overland Craglorn requiring a full group. After VR10 I might have to quit until they get off the group or die wagon.

Svann

I think there should be solo only instances, but they should not be in the main quest line. They should be extra achievements. Also, they should be scaled to level. It makes no sense to say the player accomplished something if there is the option to outlevel it by 20 levels plus veteran levels. If you can gimp an instance by outleveling it you might as well gimp it by allowing groups too.

GreySix

adamrussell52_ESO wrote: »

Also, they should be scaled to level. It makes no sense to say the player accomplished something if there is the option to outlevel it by 20 levels plus veteran levels. If you can gimp an instance by outleveling it you might as well gimp it by allowing groups too.

That is exactly what my wife and I are doing in reference to all forced-solo instances. We're not here to learn and master the gaming mechanics of this MMO.

We're here to explore Tamriel and quest together. So, I've no issue with coming back 20 levels above a forced-solo dungeon and one-shot-killing some boss, when my wife and I are prohibited from grouping.

Want to solo instances? Knock yourselves out. But I ask that others of us who want to group such instances be allowed to do so.

JBerkleyJr

My wife and I play almost exclusively together also, and we have not gotten far into the game (keeping it casual). We have already run into this twice (once with Mage Guild, once with Fighter Guild--the dreaded Doshia).

After we hit Doshia the first time, I sent a /feedback to ZOS to the effect of:

"Forced-solo instances are not what I'm looking for in my MMO experience. The second M in that acronym stands for Multiplayer. The nice thing about that M is if I'm having trouble with content I can bring a friend (or make a new one) to help."

One of the great things about MMORPGs is the social aspect. Ironically, it can be one of the worst things, too, but that's not what this thread is about.

natronosaurus

the integrity of the story

I don't know why this made me laugh. But really, what you're telling me is that based on the story, I should believe I'm the one defeating Molag Bal, saving Tamriel, and looking cool, when I know that 250,000 other people are that same dude! I'd come closer believing that me and 3 heroes beat Molag Bal, saved Tamriel, and looked darn cool than believing that Molag Bal was defeated 250,000 times, Tamriel was saved 250,000 times, and....well, it's not looking so cool, now.

What kind of integrity does the story have if a particular build/player skill level cannot pass a specific point in that story by him/herself, at the level recommended by the game? What the OP is saying wouldn't trivialize any aspect of the story for you or anyone else who can, in truly heroic fashion, save Tamriel alone. What do me and my band of mercenaries have to do with the other 249,000 heroes of Tamriel?

Let the dude help his girlfriend enjoy the game.
Let the OP play with buddies.
Let the many of us who would love to HELP those people who would ask for it, do so.

Who do you think is going to support this game if people get frustrated and quit? I can play Skyrim without a sub, and so can anyone else, and have a MUCH better solo game experience. When I die in Skyrim (and I do many times), I don't get stuck with a ridiculous repair bill, it's "GAME OVER, hero, you died (the hero always wins in TES), try again."

Sakiri

adamrussell52_ESO wrote: »

I think there should be solo only instances, but they should not be in the main quest line. They should be extra achievements. Also, they should be scaled to level. It makes no sense to say the player accomplished something if there is the option to outlevel it by 20 levels plus veteran levels. If you can gimp an instance by outleveling it you might as well gimp it by allowing groups too.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn4H7AFOxcI

That fight took me 3 days, 220+ attempts and 4k in repairs.

I was fine with it.

Why? Optional content for a vanity effect(changes your fire spells to a green color).

You dont even get an achievement for it.

Carraig

There is a fairly simple solution for this and it gives the player the free choice of what to do: Give two quests from which the player can choose from: A solo version and a group version. If you complete one version, the other one will become unavailable. I've seen this in the main quest line of LOTRO.

Sleepwalker

Hmm, interesting one. My first instinct here is to side with the OP as I don't see a direct problem with allowing the option to group with others or remain solo for these story line quests we're discussing (Doshia, Mannimarco, Molag Bal, etc.) Also, gamer couples make me smile, and I'd like nothing more than to see more people enjoy their time in ESO. But there's a few areas in that thinking that beg more questions:

These encounters are successfully being completed by many other players while solo, so only saying that they are too hard is not good enough of a complaint. How many times have you tried them? Are you using all available mechanics to complete them (blocking, dodging, interrupting, using potions and provisioning food)? Have you tried the encounter with another build or class? Just off the top of my head, these are a few questions that if the answers come a certain way, then no, ZOS absolutely should not change a thing based on this request.

The main line quests come around roughly once every five levels , and the majority put you with a companion or two (or three) to help get them done. (Granted, companion combat is a little glitchy, but it can be used viably.) If any player is repetitively failing them, it is likely due to a lack of proficiency in some area of combat. This is fixed with practice, like most hobbies with which one is not succeeding, not necessarily a change in the game's mechanics. Also, I can tell you with certainty that if the solo content is too difficult for a player while leveling, the veteran content would be quite frustrating even when a part of a duo. What then? Will ZOS need to change that as well?

TL:DR - Perhaps requesting some tips from the community on the troublesome encounters here would be a better start? It is entirely possible that the problem is not with the game, but with the player. Just being totally honest. The solo-only quests are not that plentiful, but the resources it would take to change them all very much are. If they decide to do it, it should be because things are truly broken, not just because of two players' whims.

GreySix

Sleepwalker wrote: »

These encounters are successfully being completed by many other players while solo, so only saying that they are too hard is not good enough of a complaint. How many times have you tried them? Are you using all available mechanics to complete them (blocking, dodging, interrupting, using potions and provisioning food)? Have you tried the encounter with another build or class? Just off the top of my head, these are a few questions that if the answers come a certain way, then no, ZOS absolutely should not change a thing based on this request.

Simply put: We detest doing anything solo - we have lots of single-player TES and other games just for the purpose of playing solo if we want to do so, vice paying thirty bucks a month for the privilege. We play this game not for the challenge of beating super-bosses after fifteen minutes of punishing our keyboards, but rather so we can cooperatively explore Tamriel and quest together as casual players.

And we're hardly alone: ZOS will bleed subscribers if they insist on forcing folks into solo play who have zero desire to play solo in this MMO.

Our intent if this isn't changed is to go back to those quests about 20 levels over the forced-solo instances, so we can murder the bosses in question in just a few shots. It isn't so much of an inability to complete the quests as it is an unwillingness to ungroup.

My wife will simply quit after becoming frustrated, and I'll quickly follow suit - since we purchased two copies of the game and two subscriptions for the sole purpose of grouping together in everything.

If you're married, you'll already know that telling your wife she's doing it wrong after an enemy wipes the floor with her in an instanced dungeon where you can't help her out, is not a viable course of action. If you're not married, you'll have no idea what I'm talking about, and this will by necessity make no sense to you.

The bottom-line remains this:

What we're asking for will have zero - none - nada - el zippo impact on those who want to continue to solo instances (that means you'd still get to do what you're already doing now), so really can't see why anyone would oppose what we're seeking.

aipex8_ESO

The thing is, if they no longer force you to do those quests solo, then NOBODY is going to do them solo. Everyone will grab a couple of guildies to wipe the floor with Manimarco or Molag Bal and suddenly the whole main quest is a faceroll. The only option would be to scale it based on the number of players and then both you and your wife are going to be frustrated because you won't be able to carry her through it (no offense). I understand the frustration, but I don't think they should change it.

GreySix

aipex8_ESO wrote: »

The thing is, if they no longer force you to do those quests solo, then NOBODY is going to do them solo. Everyone will grab a couple of guildies to wipe the floor with Manimarco or Molag Bal and suddenly the whole main quest is a faceroll. The only option would be to scale it based on the number of players and then both you and your wife are going to be frustrated because you won't be able to carry her through it (no offense). I understand the frustration, but I don't think they should change it.

Incorrect. My wife is fine with getting her rear end handed to her, so long as my character is right there getting beat down in the process. Because then we're both messing something up, and we can adjust, or go level up somewhere else and come back to try again.

But when that's happening to her alone, and all I can do is stand by helplessly, she's done for the day. And a lot of couples who play together are very similar.

ChairGraveyard

+1 to the title.

I think it would be fine if it let you have one person come into your instance, and it styled them as so:

Mages' Guild Quests: The other player looks like a Guild Mage.

Fighters' Guild Quests: The other player looks like a Guild Fighter.

Main Quests: Styled as a random mercenary or perhaps a guild mage/fighter.

Right now the solo-enforced quests are keeping my gf from enjoying the game to its fullest.

aipex8_ESO

GreySix wrote: »

aipex8_ESO wrote: »

The thing is, if they no longer force you to do those quests solo, then NOBODY is going to do them solo. Everyone will grab a couple of guildies to wipe the floor with Manimarco or Molag Bal and suddenly the whole main quest is a faceroll. The only option would be to scale it based on the number of players and then both you and your wife are going to be frustrated because you won't be able to carry her through it (no offense). I understand the frustration, but I don't think they should change it.

Incorrect. My wife is fine with getting her rear end handed to her, so long as my character is right there getting beat down in the process. Because then we're both messing something up, and we can adjust, or go level up somewhere else and come back to try again.

But when that's happening to her alone, and all I can do is stand by helplessly, she's done for the day. And a lot of couples who play together are very similar.

I'd be okay if they scaled the boss based on there being 1,2,3 or 4 players, and kept it challenging. That's quite a bit bigger request than just asking for it not to be solo though. I highly doubt they will make that change.

GreySix

aipex8_ESO wrote: »

I'd be okay if they scaled the boss based on there being 1,2,3 or 4 players, and kept it challenging. That's quite a bit bigger request than just asking for it not to be solo though. I highly doubt they will make that change.

It would be a relatively simple algorithm: (set Boss HP/Power = Player * X)

... and if they don't make that change, they will bleed lots of casual cooperative players, leaving them with the blitzing players ... who will then in-turn quit out of boredom.

Elember

Basically it is lazy game design on the part of Zenimax Online because it is more difficult to design the quests to allow solo and group play and still be difficult for both. So instead they stick to what they know how to do, single player game design, and call it an MMO....absolutely lazy game design no doubt about it.

Sakiri

aipex8_ESO wrote: »

The thing is, if they no longer force you to do those quests solo, then NOBODY is going to do them solo. Everyone will grab a couple of guildies to wipe the floor with Manimarco or Molag Bal and suddenly the whole main quest is a faceroll. The only option would be to scale it based on the number of players and then both you and your wife are going to be frustrated because you won't be able to carry her through it (no offense). I understand the frustration, but I don't think they should change it.

The point is though, that no one is forcing YOU to bring those people.

Who cares what everyone else does? If YOU want to do them solo, YOU can do so.

I hate that every time someone brings this up, you end up with "but then everyone will bring someone else". Who cares? You want the challenge, you do it solo.

It's the same reason I run heroic instances at level on my characters in WoW. I want the challenge, I solo the group zone. >.>

GreySix wrote: »

aipex8_ESO wrote: »

The thing is, if they no longer force you to do those quests solo, then NOBODY is going to do them solo. Everyone will grab a couple of guildies to wipe the floor with Manimarco or Molag Bal and suddenly the whole main quest is a faceroll. The only option would be to scale it based on the number of players and then both you and your wife are going to be frustrated because you won't be able to carry her through it (no offense). I understand the frustration, but I don't think they should change it.

Incorrect. My wife is fine with getting her rear end handed to her, so long as my character is right there getting beat down in the process. Because then we're both messing something up, and we can adjust, or go level up somewhere else and come back to try again.

But when that's happening to her alone, and all I can do is stand by helplessly, she's done for the day. And a lot of couples who play together are very similar.

My friend.

Basically, unless he can sit there and facetank it, he's not killing it. Ever. Period.

He doesn't move out of things. "It's easier not to".

Yeah. One of those people. But apparently this community doesn't want "bads" so they're adamant at having a main story blocked behind a skill gate.

GreySix wrote: »

aipex8_ESO wrote: »

I'd be okay if they scaled the boss based on there being 1,2,3 or 4 players, and kept it challenging. That's quite a bit bigger request than just asking for it not to be solo though. I highly doubt they will make that change.

It would be a relatively simple algorithm: (set Boss HP/Power = Player * X)

... and if they don't make that change, they will bleed lots of casual cooperative players, leaving them with the blitzing players ... who will then in-turn quit out of boredom.

They'll already lose those when they get to VR10 and there's nothing for them to do because Craglorn is group only.

Elember wrote: »

Basically it is lazy game design on the part of Zenimax Online because it is more difficult to design the quests to allow solo and group play and still be difficult for both. So instead they stick to what they know how to do, single player game design, and call it an MMO....absolutely lazy game design no doubt about it.

This is ZOS' first game. They don't really know how to do single player either.

Sleepwalker

GreySix wrote: »

Simply put: We detest doing anything solo - we have lots of single-player TES and other games just for the purpose of playing solo if we want to do so, vice paying thirty bucks a month for the privilege. We play this game not for the challenge... And we're hardly alone: ZOS will bleed subscribers if they insist on forcing folks into solo play who have zero desire to play solo in this MMO.

With all due respect, let's go ahead and dump that last sentence right on out of this discussion. The forums are full of people who have their concept of what will "kill this game", and quite honestly, if it were to happen, none of you will ever be able to decide who was right about what killed it anyway. Let's strive for some constructive resolution instead of going with "fix this or your game will die slowly." I feel like we'll be better off that way.

In your particular case, it is unfortunate that you guys detest solo activities since this game includes them, but paying the monthly fee once (so far) doesn't mean that your desires weigh more than others who have paid also. If ZOS goes through the leg work of changing all solo-only content, what would stop someone from asking for the option of changing group content to solo-viable? True, just as in your case, it would still give people the option to do either, so no harm done, right? Wrong. I'm sure the amounts of hours of programming, server downtime, and patching will count as harm to quite a few people, myself included (and those people also pay their thirty dollars per month at the moment just to be clear).

I'm no programmer, but I know that this is not a simple endeavor you're requesting, and I just feel like there are better ways to solve this problem than what you are requesting, such as learning what is being done wrong on these encounters so you can get through them quickly. I hear you, you guys are casual, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, surely we can find a better thought process here than "Welp, this solo encounter is too hard for me (or someone) to do alone. The game is obviously broken and doomed." That's quite a leap in today's gaming world.

Our intent if this isn't changed is to go back to those quests about 20 levels over the forced-solo instances, so we can murder the bosses in question in just a few shots. It isn't so much of an inability to complete the quests as it is an unwillingness to ungroup.

This is an exaggeration, yes? Twenty levels just to be able to solo a boss? I definitely can't stop you if this is what you plan to do, but if that is required, there is definitely... definitely a problem with how you're performing combat in the game. Again, that is not a problem that needs to be resolved by changing the game's mechanics. It is one that requires some more learning and practice on your part (or the part of your player 2.)

If you're married, you'll already know that telling your wife she's doing it wrong after an enemy wipes the floor with her in an instanced dungeon where you can't help her out, is not a viable course of action. If you're not married, you'll have no idea what I'm talking about, and this will by necessity make no sense to you.

No need to assume that. One doesn't necessarily have to be married to understand what you're saying here. A little experience with women in general is sufficient. No, I'm not married, but I totally get it. If you can't tell her that she's doing it wrong when she obviously is, fine. Direct her to the forums. We're not married to her. We'll tell her. And we'll also politely tell her how to do it right.

The bottom-line remains this:
What we're asking for will have zero - none - nada - el zippo impact on those who want to continue to solo instances (that means you'd still get to do what you're already doing now), so really can't see why anyone would oppose what we're seeking.

That is not quite accurate. I've mentioned above how this definitely has an impact on the developers and very well could have an impact on the players who think it's fine as is. I can elaborate if needed, but I think it's clear already.

TL:DR - I'm not trying to dismiss this concern in the least. If it can be done efficiently, it should be, and I'd even be fine with a little more downtime while implementing it. However, the sheer concept of ZOS bending to the will of someone that is frustrated with their own skill level in the game to the point of sending an ultimatum of "change this or I will quit" doesn't sit right with me. At the very least, the player with the frustrations should be spending some time speaking to the people that are not having those frustrations to see how they might be able to improve on their own. In all honesty, a team of programmers does not need to be worked harder because one couple can't bother with asking their fellow hobbyists what they're doing wrong on a few quests.

Sakiri

Its more than one couple.

Im dealing with a man that refuses to do something different even though he understands hes doing it wrong.

If he cant facetank it while standing in one spot, he wont kill it. Im not even sure hes done the level 20 quest and hes 35. Add fight? Hes forked.

Sleepwalker

Fair enough, and I'm sure there's more that can say the same. I was just trying to make a point. I don't necessarily mean the "one couple" part to be a literal representation of every one with this concern. This current discussion has just gone into the experiences of this "one couple", if that clears it up a little.

GreySix

Sleepwalker wrote: »

With all due respect, let's go ahead and dump that last sentence right on out of this discussion. The forums are full of people who have their concept of what will "kill this game", and quite honestly, if it were to happen, none of you will ever be able to decide who was right about what killed it anyway. Let's strive for some constructive resolution instead of going with "fix this or your game will die slowly." I feel like we'll be better off that way.

Fair enough, but if you think that "hardcore" subscribers outnumber casual gamers who like to play this MMO cooperatively, you may wind up being unpleasantly surprised. Its a good bet that the vast majority of casual players never even visit forums like this, though they most likely make up the bulk of players.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

In your particular case, it is unfortunate that you guys detest solo activities since this game includes them, but paying the monthly fee once (so far) doesn't mean that your desires weigh more than others who have paid also.

No, but in this particular case, that's a potential loss of two subscriptions per casual co-op pair. It doesn't take a math genius to figure out that alienating those with my point of view is less than a good idea.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

If ZOS goes through the leg work of changing all solo-only content, what would stop someone from asking for the option of changing group content to solo-viable?

I don't care about hypotheticals. I care about what is.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

True, just as in your case, it would still give people the option to do either, so no harm done, right? Wrong. I'm sure the amounts of hours of programming, server downtime, and patching will count as harm to quite a few people, myself included (and those people also pay their thirty dollars per month at the moment just to be clear).

Again, you're dealing in hypotheticals. There are already a significant amount of bugs requiring fixing, so what I'm suggesting would hardly tax the programmers to that much more of an extent.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

I'm no programmer, but I know that this is not a simple endeavor you're requesting, and I just feel like there are better ways to solve this problem than what you are requesting, such as learning what is being done wrong on these encounters so you can get through them quickly.

Got it, and disagree. I and many others want true grouping with those whom we play cooperatively. SWTOR figured it out, and they got a lot of stuff wrong. So there's clearly a precedent.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

I hear you, you guys are casual, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, surely we can find a better thought process here than "Welp, this solo encounter is too hard for me (or someone) to do alone. The game is obviously broken and doomed." That's quite a leap in today's gaming world.

Are you married, or do you have a girlfriend? If so, do you play cooperatively on games like this with one? If the answer is no, then this will necessarily make no sense to you:

At no time is a viable course of action telling your wife/girlfriend that she's doing it wrong, after her character gets curb-stomped. And if you're not able to help out, she'll quit.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

This is an exaggeration, yes? Twenty levels just to be able to solo a boss? I definitely can't stop you if this is what you plan to do, but if that is required, there is definitely... definitely a problem with how you're performing combat in the game. Again, that is not a problem that needs to be resolved by changing the game's mechanics. It is one that requires some more learning and practice on your part (or the part of your player 2.)

Perhaps, though only slightly - it is our own form of rebellion against a system forcing us into solo-only questing. Again, we're not in this for the challenge of fifteen-minute battles with some super-boss. We're in it for cooperative and fun play. Period.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

No need to assume that. One doesn't necessarily have to be married to understand what you're saying here. A little experience with women in general is sufficient. No, I'm not married, but I totally get it. If you can't tell her that she's doing it wrong when she obviously is, fine. Direct her to the forums. We're not married to her. We'll tell her. And we'll also politely tell her how to do it right.

My wife doesn't read forums, and many other gaming couples (on the male side) face similar challenges. My wife, and many wives/girlfriends will play a game like this cooperatively only so long as its fun.

-> Getting repeatedly beaten down by a big bad boss without husband's/boyfriend's help is not fun

-> Searching forums to see how you're doing it wrong is not fun

They tend to stop, say, "This isn't fun. I'm doing something else," and then they do something else. Then both unsubscribe.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

That is not quite accurate. I've mentioned above how this definitely has an impact on the developers and very well could have an impact on the players who think it's fine as is. I can elaborate if needed, but I think it's clear already.

No, you engaged in hypotheticals - my replies above apply, so won't regurgitate them here.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

TL:DR - I'm not trying to dismiss this concern in the least. If it can be done efficiently, it should be, and I'd even be fine with a little more downtime while implementing it. However, the sheer concept of ZOS bending to the will of someone that is frustrated with their own skill level in the game to the point of sending an ultimatum of "change this or I will quit" doesn't sit right with me.

Sorry, but it will happen. Casual cooperative pairs tend to think alike, and when they meet what is to them insurmountable roadblocks, they tend to quit. You're not required to like that fact, but a fact it remains.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

At the very least, the player with the frustrations should be spending some time speaking to the people that are not having those frustrations to see how they might be able to improve on their own. In all honesty, a team of programmers does not need to be worked harder because one couple can't bother with asking their fellow hobbyists what they're doing wrong on a few quests.

Again, we have ZERO - NADA - NO desire to improve in a game like this, master mechanics, or figure out what we're doing wrong. We want to have fun, and when it ceases to be fun, we (and many other casual co-op players like us) will move on to something else. What I'm seeking is a MINOR change that would allow us to cooperatively face big baddies - NOT altering the ability for you and others to face the same big baddies as solo players.

frwinters_ESO

I have the solution! Get a divorce! Next topic!

Sakiri

Oh youre just a ray of sunshine now arent you?

Grey, Id suggest just doing it FOR her and move on for now.

Normally thats what I do but it doesnt work that way when my problem is half a world away.

Maybe next year when Im there.

GreySix

Yeah, we're geographically separated for now, and I could log on to her character to fight the bosses again.

For now, we're just holding off on quests that force solo instancing, instead doing the many side-quests and exploring Tamriel together.

Sleepwalker

Sigh... so much stubborn contempt. I guess diplomacy has failed. Well, let me sum up my two cents, as I'm getting bored with trying to get you to see a little reason.

GreySix wrote: »

Fair enough, but if you think that "hardcore" subscribers outnumber casual gamers who like to play this MMO cooperatively, you may wind up being unpleasantly surprised...

I didn't say anything like that, nor would it be unpleasant for anyone to find this out had they not already known such a detail. Why do you assume that I'm not informed on the community I enjoy? Don't answer... rhetorical.

I don't care about hypotheticals. I care about what is.

You probably should care, as any decent business would take both scenarios into account when deciding on whether or not to indulge a complaint from such a fickle client.

I'm going to go ahead and skip the other posts about hypothetical scenarios, me obviously not understanding since "I'm not married", and all of that other irrelevant nonsense...

Again, we have ZERO - NADA - NO desire to improve in a game like this, master mechanics, or figure out what we're doing wrong...

The world SO needs more people with mentalities like this... No, don't practice, request that the game changes it's rules. Yeah. Good luck to you both. And have fun with Molag Bal's "Gauntlet" (I won't spoil the surprise - but just FYI, there won't be 20 extra levels available for you.) Even if ZOS let's you group for it, it should be a fun little outing for you two. Cheers!

GreySix

Sleepwalker wrote: »

Sigh... so much stubborn contempt. I guess diplomacy has failed. Well, let me sum up my two cents, as I'm getting bored with trying to get you to see a little reason.

Ad-Hominem attack out of the gate, so it's clear how this will go...

Sleepwalker wrote: »

didn't say anything like that, nor would it be unpleasant for anyone to find this out had they not already known such a detail. Why do you assume that I'm not informed on the community I enjoy? Don't answer... rhetorical.

So you would be pleasantly surprised to discover just how many casual players would be alienated by any refusal to allow grouping where currently forbidden?

Interesting.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

You probably should care, as any decent business would take both scenarios into account when deciding on whether or not to indulge a complaint from such a fickle client.

Your entire premise was based on a slippery slope fallacy, pre-assuming the worst-case scenario - thus my dismissal of the assertion out of hand.

I still dismiss it. Sorry.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

I'm going to go ahead and skip the other posts about hypothetical scenarios, me obviously not understanding since "I'm not married", and all of that other irrelevant nonsense...

"... walk a mile in my shoes." I'm sure you've heard that before. I'm not an Arab, so it would be foolish for me to state I can perceive reality as an Arab does. Thus those who've never been married would be foolish to claim they know what married life is like. This isn't rocket science, my friend.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

The world SO needs more people with mentalities like this... No, don't practice, request that the game changes it's rules. Yeah. Good luck to you both.

Ah, so your chosen course of action is to demonstrate contempt for those who don't enjoy MMOs the same way you do. I had a feeling this is where we'd end up.

Sometimes its unfortunate to be proved right.

Sleepwalker wrote: »

And have fun with Molag Bal's "Gauntlet"

Since you apparently paid no attention to what I wrote earlier, I've no intention of engaging in any endgame content, so long as grouping is disabled. Like a great many others, my wife and I will simply stop playing, unsubscribe, and find something else to do.

But at least solo-players like you will remain here to keep the game afloat.

Good luck with that. {insert clever expression here}