Diminishing Returns on loot do not hurt bots, only legitimate players

ChairGraveyard

I'm not sure why ZOS is taking a page from Nexon here, with the constant addition of diminishing returns, but it's not an effective strategy against bots.

Botters will either just add more accounts, or move on to a different loot source.

In either scenario, only legitimate players are actually impacted negatively, while bots continue to go on their merry way.

If bots move on to AoE farming regular mobs, the response from ZOS will almost certainly be to nerf loot from regular mobs an put diminishing returns on them.

Now, I don't know how many experienced DR in GW2 or other games, but if you have, you understand this is possibly the worst idea ever.

Diminishing returns tend to bug and lock LEGITIMATE PLAYERS out of getting loot for hours on end, while the botters simply add more accounts.

Diminishing returns are a poor strategy against bots, because they harm legit players and essentially leave bots untouched.

I'm concerned that ZOS is planning on infecting the rest of the game with diminishing returns, as has started with dungeons and world bosses with the 1.0.6 patch.

How long before all mobs have diminishing returns and will not drop loot after the first 3-5 enemies?

How long before quests give only 10% XP if you've completed 1-2 quests in a row?

LoreRunner

Did you ever think that the changes to diminishing returns was not aimed at botters but at players who spends large amounts of time killing the same exact mob every time it spawns for the loot? Because frankly when someone goes into a dungeon and players or bots are killing the boss and you have to wait a large amount of time before it spawns again (and sometimes a very long time before you get enough credit to get loot) it doesn't really mater if it was a bot or some jerk who is farming the boss.

ZOS also bans bots so they are removing the bot problem that way. They do not ban players who are causing the same kind of problem though so they need to stop your kind of inappropriate behavior in other ways.

ChairGraveyard

If that's the case - it will be no time at all before they nerf loot from regular mobs and rewards from quests.

Just like GW2. Puke.

SexyVette07

I think what you should have said is that it hurts real players more than bots. The change still hurts bots.

TalonVector

Ok this is an mmo, and u all that don't understand that, let me let u in on what mmoers do..... They Farm. That's just 1 of the things that makes mmos fun, it takes time but can b enjoyable but DR screws that to the wall.

F the dang bots u will never get rid of them completely its just how it goes in mmos we DONT need some more GW2 B FREAKIN S in this game.

I have dealt with the irritating bugs, and the duplicating bs but... BUT! Not some DR crap put this in the game and peace no more sub from me.

P.S. No u cant have my stuff its getting deleted, and the only reason u would ask for my stuff is cause u cant farm your own cause of crapy DR.

K_M_K_ESO

Totally against this nerf. If solo players want to do solo content go play a solo game. This nerf will do nothing to stop bots. They are bots. They work 24/7. It might slow them down but it certainly won't stop them.

ChairGraveyard

It screws over players who don't even farm too.

Last night my friend and I went exploring the public dungeons and world bosses in Malabal Tor and Reaper's March.

One run through each dungeon, one tag on the boss (we didn't even wait for loot - just completion, though we got some loot sometimes) and then we moved on.

No camping, no farming etc.

Yet the new patch makes this IMPOSSIBLE TO DO.

You will hit one dungeon or world boss and be totally locked out of playing the others in a NORMAL fashion.

And bots don't care - they can just add more accounts to get around the timer.

It ONLY impacts regular players - bots just adjust by adding more accounts to get the same loot.

Volkoth

TalonVector wrote: »

Ok this is an mmo, and u all that don't understand that, let me let u in on what mmoers do..... They Farm. That's just 1 of the things that makes mmos fun, it takes time but can b enjoyable but DR screws that to the wall.

F the dang bots u will never get rid of them completely its just how it goes in mmos we DONT need some more GW2 B FREAKIN S in this game.

I have dealt with the irritating bugs, and the duplicating bs but... BUT! Not some DR crap put this in the game and peace no more sub from me.

P.S. No u cant have my stuff its getting deleted, and the only reason u would ask for my stuff is cause u cant farm your own cause of crapy DR.

I agree wholheartedly. MMO's = Farming. This concept dates back to UO or even EQ. I just discover the viability of farming dungeon bosses for shards so I might finally afford a horse....then they nerf it!!??? F that. Seriously, the companies that are by gamers and for gamers *cough* need to take polls from ACTUAL gamers and find out what they want. BAN BOTS, dont hurt legitimate players that are playing the game themselves. BAN GOLD SELLERS! You need to focus on a real solution to a problem, not one that hurts real players. This is when you will see the people leaving. It wasn't the bugged quests, it wasn't the bugged mobs or the duping or even the bots and spammers. It's when you affect how we the people play the game. Oh, they are having fun killing a boss over and over an feeling gratification from the rewards they reap...we shall end that! Not a wise decision devs.

Malignos

Volkoth wrote: »

I agree wholheartedly. MMO's = Farming. This concept dates back to UO or even EQ. I just discover the viability of farming dungeon bosses for shards so I might finally afford a horse....then they nerf it!!??? F that. Seriously, the companies that are by gamers and for gamers *cough* need to take polls from ACTUAL gamers and find out what they want. BAN BOTS, dont hurt legitimate players that are playing the game themselves. BAN GOLD SELLERS! You need to focus on a real solution to a problem, not one that hurts real players. This is when you will see the people leaving. It wasn't the bugged quests, it wasn't the bugged mobs or the duping or even the bots and spammers. It's when you affect how we the people play the game. Oh, they are having fun killing a boss over and over an feeling gratification from the rewards they reap...we shall end that! Not a wise decision devs.

Couldn't have said it better myself.
If this quickly becomes GW2 with regards to lack of loot and dramatic decrease in the feeling of accomplishment, you're gonna see an exodus.

Turkwise

"Legitimate" Yeah, okay. I'll admit, I spent some time killing dungeon bosses repeatedly. It wasn't fun. It was grindy. Boring. Mindless. But I did it because it was a good source of gems, gold, potions and such. I'm glad this option isn't available to me anymore. I'll spend more time playing and enjoying the game. There's NOTHING WRONG with making things HARDER. Challenge is good.

ChairGraveyard

Turkwise wrote: »

"Legitimate" Yeah, okay. I'll admit, I spent some time killing dungeon bosses repeatedly. It wasn't fun. It was grindy. Boring. Mindless. But I did it because it was a good source of gems, gold, potions and such. I'm glad this option isn't available to me anymore. I'll spend more time playing and enjoying the game. There's NOTHING WRONG with making things HARDER. Challenge is good.

That's fine - I agree that the "kill boss over and over" thing was boring, but good loot.

HOWEVER, you seem to miss the FACT that the new "feature" is a GLOBAL LOCKOUT TIMER.

This means you cannot even go from one public dungeon to another and get loot at all.

What's more boring than camping a boss? Not being able to do any dungeons or world bosses because you completed ONE earlier.

Volkoth

Turkwise wrote: »

"Legitimate" Yeah, okay. I'll admit, I spent some time killing dungeon bosses repeatedly. It wasn't fun. It was grindy. Boring. Mindless. But I did it because it was a good source of gems, gold, potions and such. I'm glad this option isn't available to me anymore. I'll spend more time playing and enjoying the game. There's NOTHING WRONG with making things HARDER. Challenge is good.

This is true, challenge is good but as you said, you did it because it was a good source of gems etc. Gaining wealth is intrinsically fun to some if not most players. Some craft, some gather and sell, some farm. I liken this nerf to that of the great SWG...it's as if the powers that be say "Oh no, they players are enjoying an aspect of the game, nerf it!" If you don't want to farm don't, simple as that. But now, you kill one dungeon boss, travel across the map to a different dungeon, kill that boss and you still can't loot. It's on an absurdly long timer that inhibits even non-farming players.

Turkwise

ChairGraveyard wrote: »

Turkwise wrote: »

"Legitimate" Yeah, okay. I'll admit, I spent some time killing dungeon bosses repeatedly. It wasn't fun. It was grindy. Boring. Mindless. But I did it because it was a good source of gems, gold, potions and such. I'm glad this option isn't available to me anymore. I'll spend more time playing and enjoying the game. There's NOTHING WRONG with making things HARDER. Challenge is good.

That's fine - I agree that the "kill boss over and over" thing was boring, but good loot.

HOWEVER, you seem to miss the FACT that the new "feature" is a GLOBAL LOCKOUT TIMER.

This means you cannot even go from one public dungeon to a normal and get loot at all.

What's more boring than camping a boss? Not being able to do any dungeons or world bosses because you completed ONE earlier.

.................................................

I DID miss that.

I'm just going to sit here with my head repeatedly hitting my desk for a while.

I mean, seriously? Seriously??? The drops aren't even consistently good enough to warrant that.

But seeing as how the drops aren't that great anyways, I won't affect me too much. I'll live.

Volkoth

SWG all over again

ChairGraveyard

Turkwise wrote: »

.................................................

I DID miss that.

I'm just going to sit here with my head repeatedly hitting my desk for a while.

I mean, seriously? Seriously??? The drops aren't even consistently good enough to warrant that.

But seeing as how the drops aren't that great anyways, I won't affect me too much. I'll live.

The drops from the bosses aren't a big deal. It's the impact on gameplay that bugs me.

Now, if I just did a public dungeon and a friend logs on and wants to do a different one, only one of us gets any loot from the boss. It FEELS janky.

The other issue is that people and bots will just move on to farming mobs (which has always been better loot anyway).

What I wonder is if we're going to see diminishing returns on regular loot too, and I want to nip that in bud right *now* before it becomes a MASSIVE problem like it was in GW2.

At least ZOS has a courtesy to let us know when they are adding DR to the game, ArenaNet never bothered, and also locked/deleted posts discussing it at all. It was probably 3 weeks before they even acknowledged it, and weeks more before they decided to admit that killing one mob and not getting loot for 20 hours afterwards was kinda broken.

It took even longer to fix it back to reality.

ZOS isn't ArenaNet (thank god) but this change already sets a poor precedent, where players playing *totally normally* (not even talking about farming either) are impacted negatively, and bots are basically none the worse off.

Volkoth wrote: »

SWG all over again

I never got to play SWG, even though I followed it on the forums pre-release for a couple of years.

What part of it are you talking about? Was there some sort of diminishing return/global lockout timer thing there?

(I already know pretty in-depth about the CU and NGU incidents.)

Tetujin

ChairGraveyard wrote: »

Turkwise wrote: »

"Legitimate" Yeah, okay. I'll admit, I spent some time killing dungeon bosses repeatedly. It wasn't fun. It was grindy. Boring. Mindless. But I did it because it was a good source of gems, gold, potions and such. I'm glad this option isn't available to me anymore. I'll spend more time playing and enjoying the game. There's NOTHING WRONG with making things HARDER. Challenge is good.

That's fine - I agree that the "kill boss over and over" thing was boring, but good loot.

HOWEVER, you seem to miss the FACT that the new "feature" is a GLOBAL LOCKOUT TIMER.

This means you cannot even go from one public dungeon to a normal and get loot at all.

What's more boring than camping a boss? Not being able to do any dungeons or world bosses because you completed ONE earlier.

Yeah, this changed my thought on this. If it was just a lockout for a certain time per boss it would be enough. I don't think locking them all out makes sense at all.

ChairGraveyard

sir_dunnub17_ESO wrote: »

Yeah, this changed my thought on this. If it was just a lockout for a certain time per boss it would be enough. I don't think locking them all out makes sense at all.

My thoughts exactly.

Volkoth

ChairGraveyard wrote: »

Turkwise wrote: »

.................................................

I DID miss that.

I'm just going to sit here with my head repeatedly hitting my desk for a while.

I mean, seriously? Seriously??? The drops aren't even consistently good enough to warrant that.

But seeing as how the drops aren't that great anyways, I won't affect me too much. I'll live.

The drops from the bosses aren't a big deal. It's the impact on gameplay that bugs me.

Now, if I just did a public dungeon and a friend logs on and wants to do a different one, only one of us gets any loot from the boss. It FEELS janky.

The other issue is that people and bots will just move on to farming mobs (which has always been better loot anyway).

What I wonder is if we're going to see diminishing returns on regular loot too, and I want to nip that in bud right *now* before it becomes a MASSIVE problem like it was in GW2.

At least ZOS has a courtesy to let us know when they are adding DR to the game, ArenaNet never bothered, and also locked/deleted posts discussing it at all. It was probably 3 weeks before they even acknowledged it, and weeks more before they decided to admit that killing one mob and not getting loot for 20 hours afterwards was kinda broken.

It took even longer to fix it back to reality.

ZOS isn't ArenaNet (thank god) but this change already sets a poor precedent, where players playing *totally normally* (not even talking about farming either) are impacted negatively, and bots are basically none the worse off.

Volkoth wrote: »

SWG all over again

I never got to play SWG, even though I followed it on the forums pre-release for a couple of years.

What part of it are you talking about? Was there some sort of diminishing return/global lockout timer thing there?

(I already know pretty in-depth about the CU and NGU incidents.)

I'm referring to the overall concept of a development company making a knee-jerk bonehead decision that hurts the player base as a whole.

ChairGraveyard

Ah right, I was just curious. Makes sense and I totally agree.

atthwsm

Anyone agreeing with this kid is a fuckface. You know the respawn timer on delve bosses wasnt designed so you could kill it every 10 seconds for a soul gem or whatever bad kids farm them for.

Grow up, it 100% COMPLETELY screws botters, and not the player. Who are these children that still farm delve bosses? That *** died out in deeshan at lvl 20 for most people.

Do you really need to farm 500000 soul gems and get that whopping huge gold amount so you can buy what? nothing? Grats cry more

Turkwise

I just ran one public dungeon, killed the boss, went to a wayshrine, hopped in another, made my way through (it was short) and killed that boss. I was able to loot them both. This isn't a big deal.

SootyTX

Turkwise wrote: »

I just ran one public dungeon, killed the boss, went to a wayshrine, hopped in another, made my way through (it was short) and killed that boss. I was able to loot them both. This isn't a big deal.

*Edited: Insulting*

Flashy_Senap

atthwsm wrote: »

Anyone agreeing with this kid is a fuckface. You know the respawn timer on delve bosses wasnt designed so you could kill it every 10 seconds for a soul gem or whatever bad kids farm them for.

Grow up, it 100% COMPLETELY screws botters, and not the player. Who are these children that still farm delve bosses? That *** died out in deeshan at lvl 20 for most people.

Do you really need to farm 500000 soul gems and get that whopping huge gold amount so you can buy what? nothing? Grats cry more

I'm a legitimate player who enjoys farming those bosses. It was for me a fun and meditating way to earn mats for crafting, "extra life" for when I die and in some cases neat items I would wear. This was my go to activity for when I got sick and tired from the never ending questing I got bored with to an extreme degree after I hit lvl 30. But this activity that has kept me engaged is now taken away from me.

I understand bots being an issue to some degree, but this "solution" won't affect their progression in a way that they will seize to exist, it will only affect the players who manually put effort in farming to allow Growth of their characters. There aren't much else fun to do besides questing and when that gets old, what else is there to do?

If the bosses re-spawns every 33:rd second (had it timed,) and gave loot allowing me as a player to farm... I'd say it would allow for a reasonable assumption that this is a intended way for me to gain access to mats, money and gear. It's not like they spawn frequently if you'd farm alone (nor is as easy to beat,) you need quite a bit more players for the 33 sec frequency to be somewhat constant (my assumption after careful observation). And if you fail to get a hit in to complete the dungeon or to get loot because of these bots, Report them... And if there are players who farm, ask them to adjust their method for this time. A polite suggestion often helps out... or a better weapon.

ChairGraveyard

Flashy_Senap wrote: »

. And if there are players who farm, ask them to adjust their method for this time. A polite suggestion often helps out... or a better weapon.

Or even just ask them all to group up so you can all get contribution. I've found that grouping with most of the people farming will also allow you to deny the bots credit on the kill, which is a nice bonus.

Flashy_Senap

Yes, that is a great and fun method as well!
Many times I've ended up goofing round while laughing my ass off when waiting for the re-spawn. It's a good social time well spend... but alas no more =(

ChairGraveyard

Exactly!

Theos_Demarca

FYI for those of you who are complaining this doesn't help the bot problem is only hurts the farmer .... Well ever think that prehaps you are a problem too? Cause that's the way I see it.....

For normal players I really dont see the issue in this... I have in the past farmed bosses while i waited on freinds to get on ( yes i do level with a group *Gasp*) and even then I realized how broken the system was ... MMOs are not designed so you can afk farm a single location every 2-3min for a ton of loot. Even games that revolved around camp killing for leveling or loot ( UO , EQ , DAOC , SB etc.... ) didn't give the loot per mob that a solo dungeon boss in this game gives.

So you cry there is no easy way for you to get loot to dissemble... As is as 3 items per boss kill no .... But here is an idea go out quest , see a solo dungeon by your quest do it , then Precede to to the next quest area doing delves and anchors and overworld bosses along the way... I think you will be surprised how much stuff normal monsters give you over time.... Hell if you don't like questing that's fine , Go AOE farm normal mobs you will get the same result.

Now you Want gold? Run a group dungeon get a purple drop sell for the appropriate price.... 37 purples have been selling around 1.5k a pop the 43s around 2k each as long as you have a decent group the non vet dungeons are ez and profitable

ThePedroKid

Instanced Group Dungeons are fairly easy, but hardly profitable. The purples don't drop all that often, tbh. Lucky to see one per run lately and given the time commitment it takes to do a run that's less profitability than even open world farming. Not to mention all dungeon xp has now gone bye bye so you have to pretty much sacrifice any level progression to do dungeons if you've already run them once before.

lasma799

If they shortened the timer, I would be ok with the nerf. As it stands, it is WAY too long. It seriously makes me want to unsubscribe.

I get why they did it, but I do not understand the length of time they implemented. They do realize that many people hop from dungeon to dungeon or dungeon to overworld boss right? Many of us have limited playing time and this severely impacts our rewards/motivation to play. I do not have time to wait another 20 minutes if I did not get the blue I wanted from the boss.

In addition to that, if they are going to implement this change, they need to reduce the armor repair cost.

ajcarlsson118_ESO

lasma799 wrote: »

If they shortened the timer, I would be ok with the nerf. As it stands, it is WAY too long. It seriously makes me want to unsubscribe.

I get why they did it, but I do not understand the length of time they implemented. They do realize that many people hop from dungeon to dungeon or dungeon to overworld boss right? Many of us have limited playing time and this severely impacts our rewards/motivation to play. I do not have time to wait another 20 minutes if I did not get the blue I wanted from the boss.

In addition to that, if they are going to implement this change, they need to reduce the armor repair cost.

Seriously, the least they could do is up the blue item drop rate to 100%. 20 minute timers on *maybe* a chance at one piece of blue loot for those of us who actually want to use it? What's next lockout timers on vet dungeons?

Krohm

I believe they stealth did this nerf already, I just did a public dungeon, got no loot from the boss but dungeon credit for killing the boss, did another one 10 minutes latter and the same result and there we're no bots in the dungeon.

Hate to say this hurts us player's, give me a one time quest, something to kill the boss that gives me loot. If not its just an achievement and skyshard thing and a waste of resources.