Craglorn seems too punishing

Lalai

Endlessvoid_ESO wrote: »

Did you even read the article?

http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/04/23/creating-eso-trials

Having played many MMOs and Zenimax already said that what is being done here is no different from a standard MMO, the requirements I listed, arn't really that off in speculation. Doesn't mean I can't have a concern. However while it isn't out yet, reading the paragraphs, they did put a heavy hint that the player is required to max out all skills in a majority of areas which pretty much pushes out role players of the picture and one cannot be that far off in the implied emphasis that it will test out the most pre-prepared player, it sounds like; if you have ever played WoW Pre-AQ 40; just about that.

I did, and that article focuses on the trials portion of Craglorn.. which is not at all what Craglorn is all about. Did you even watch the video or look at the site for Craglorn? Your requirements are way off, and look like they are based on the people that have absurd requirements for raids in other MMOs... like demanding a high gearscore in WoW, or ilvl in FFXIV. Those people will exist in every game, but just cause they require stuff like that doesn't mean all groups do, or that the trials themselves require it.

Most of the Craglorn stuff really seems centered around 4-player content. You're blowing this one aspect of it way out of proportion. Especially considering no one has even had a chance to play it yet.

Endlessvoid_ESO

Lalai wrote: »

I did, and that article focuses on the trials portion of Craglorn.. which is not at all what Craglorn is all about. Most of the Craglorn stuff really seems centered around 4-player content. You're blowing this one aspect of it way out of proportion.

Both points on the whole picture has been discussed on either side and have reached a stalemate, in otherwords we are going in loop holes now.

So the only thing left to do is wait and see how the public reacts when this goes live.

PBpsy

YES I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY . NERF PLS!!!111!!!!eleven!!!

Thevenin

Sakiri wrote: »

if you dont have four solid people

ENTIRE patch aimed at raiders

4-man raids ?

RaZaddha

Phah. Filthy Casuals, they don't even lift

Audigy

Endlessvoid_ESO wrote: »

So after reading the recent article "Creating ESO: Trials" on how it being similar to raiding content, I started gathering my notes on the Pros and Cons with the game mechanics offered. From what I've gathered, there's more Cons then Pros to this specific game play content.

- To players new to MMOs, they are unfamiliar to raiding (based on ES being a Single player for the majority of the series to the community for so long).
- Limited resurrections which leads to perfection requirements on guild recruitments to raid.
- Not role play friendly, in other words the player must have all class and weapon skills learned and maxed out with the correct morphing from suggested article.
- Player must have a lot of gold in respecing to perfect the battle raid group.
- Player must have a specific spec for that encounter to even participate.
- Content requires full balanced group to meet the trio guidelines to explore and complete quests, suggested quotes gives an idea that the map size is 1/3 of Cyrodil.
- Player must be willing to have all weapon skills maxed out, therefor is required by guilds *If such requirement is needed* to carry multiple of different weapon sets or 12 weapons minimal at all times with the included armor sets with different set bonuses to work with those weapon sets of additional bag space of 40 or more depending on the trio role. Not least but including all those weapons and armor sets need to be epic/legendary status.
- Player must have all Traits unlocked.
- Limited contented to a specific player based that results less than 2% which is concluded for a minority group.
- Reward Loot system suggested by quotes mentions a possibility that *Raid Weekly Rewards* are better than crafting and Vet dungeon drops in gear category and is limited to the top 100 raid groups per week. Which gives concern and possibility in PvP unbalance and completely voids crafted gear value.


So while the Hard Core based, the ones that didn't use the PvP exploit and get to Rank 10, from looking at the player base listings; the majority of us should be Rank 5-7. The simi-hard core should be Rank 1-2. Casual players should be around level 40-48. Multi-Character roleplay/non-roleplay makers should be around level 28-36.

That means, while Zenimax is suggesting this new Craglorn content is coming out next month or roughly 5 weeks at most, our first wave of monthly subscriptions is based on table list below:

- Leveling up alts up to 50.
- Finishing up Second and/or Third part of the faction story which will result of a Rank 5 or 10 Main Character.
- Continued or just now deciding to PvP in Cyrodil after reaching level 50 or a couple of Ranks.
- Completing the Cooking, Style, and/or Researching Traits.
- Misc: Max out Bag and Bank space, Max Horse Leveling, achievements/titles
- Craglorn/Trials (Limited to Raiding Guilds/Friends) for Veteran Experienced players only.


I am sure people will say that the first sub will be all of the above but I am curious on what specifically you will do in "May".

One of the best posts I have seen in this forum so far.

You explain very well why that new Adventure Zone could backfire heavy and that it isn't accessible for more than 90% of the playerbase.

While I fully support hard encounters, I think forcing players into Elitism is wrong. It destroyed raiding at wow and it will do so at TESO.

Again, a great post!

Brittany_Joy

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Shimond wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

It is quite funny really.

They make a game where you pretty much play solo and from 0 friendships or groups. Ok , i guess this comes from the whole ES feeling the game should have.

Now , when you reach vet 10 , they turn the game into a group thing...

Yeah ... not gonna do it , sorry devs. Either they also create content for single players , or im out when the story is over. I made 0 friends while lvling for the first time in a MMO lols , im not gonna just join a bunch of randoms at end game because the devs said i must to get their content.

It's accessible from Vet1 actually. You have Vet1-10 to go solo if you really want to already.

Or are you trying to tell me you're Vet10 already?

Nope im not , actually im not even vet1 , i keep playing on my alts far too much atm , my top lvl is 45 templar :P.

Well then , i guess my point still stands , clearly the content they made for you to repeat , is craglorn , which is a group content ...

Now , i will play the game till vet10 pretty much solo , so that i can check the whole story , unless they also got a time sink for me when i get at vet 10 , then i will unsub , i will have "finished" the game.

Note , im not hating on the game , im saying i will pay for it , while i have something to do in it , it is that simple. If the only top lvl time sink is group based , then i will leave , nothing major.

Usually in other MMOs i would have a few "friends" by top lvl , but i really dont see this happening in this game.

You get friendships by actually being friendly and fun to be around instead of whining about changes that you have never experienced. I have met people in ESO already who I talk to and play with almost everyday. This is a MMO which means a Massively Multiplayer online. So just from the acronym you can tell that you are supposed to be social in order to experience the full content.

Laura

I agree mmos shouldn't have any form of group content what so ever.

Laura

Sakiri wrote: »

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

Raid content in an MMO aimed at people who raid......

I have never seen this in any other MMO ever.






I died a little inside reading this thread.

Ah, if only it were just raids.
Overland zone with a major quest line... kinda reminds me of most of WoWs patches... except the entire zone is instanced to your group and if you dont have four solid people youre screwed.

Thats the part I hate. ENTIRE patch aimed at raiders, even the quest content.

And for the record, Ill probably be VR10 by then. Hit VR1 about four days ago and have been putzing around because Daggerfall sucks.

4 people = / = a raid

Audigy

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Shimond wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

It is quite funny really.

They make a game where you pretty much play solo and from 0 friendships or groups. Ok , i guess this comes from the whole ES feeling the game should have.

Now , when you reach vet 10 , they turn the game into a group thing...

Yeah ... not gonna do it , sorry devs. Either they also create content for single players , or im out when the story is over. I made 0 friends while lvling for the first time in a MMO lols , im not gonna just join a bunch of randoms at end game because the devs said i must to get their content.

It's accessible from Vet1 actually. You have Vet1-10 to go solo if you really want to already.

Or are you trying to tell me you're Vet10 already?

Nope im not , actually im not even vet1 , i keep playing on my alts far too much atm , my top lvl is 45 templar :P.

Well then , i guess my point still stands , clearly the content they made for you to repeat , is craglorn , which is a group content ...

Now , i will play the game till vet10 pretty much solo , so that i can check the whole story , unless they also got a time sink for me when i get at vet 10 , then i will unsub , i will have "finished" the game.

Note , im not hating on the game , im saying i will pay for it , while i have something to do in it , it is that simple. If the only top lvl time sink is group based , then i will leave , nothing major.

Usually in other MMOs i would have a few "friends" by top lvl , but i really dont see this happening in this game.

You get friendships by actually being friendly and fun to be around instead of whining about changes that you have never experienced. I have met people in ESO already who I talk to and play with almost everyday. This is a MMO which means a Massively Multiplayer online. So just from the acronym you can tell that you are supposed to be social in order to experience the full content.

I think you mix something up here.

Are you honestly telling me that you are social if you tell a player "I don't care who you are, what personality you have but I demand that you have this and that spec, that you deal this damage and that you stay 8 hours".

If you want to know what being social is then grab a time machine and go back to Vanilla wow, Ultima or DAOC and experience social group content. There is nothing social if players are picked based on their spec, class or equipment. This is anti social and Elitism.

Brittany_Joy

Audigy wrote: »

Endlessvoid_ESO wrote: »

So after reading the recent article "Creating ESO: Trials" on how it being similar to raiding content, I started gathering my notes on the Pros and Cons with the game mechanics offered. From what I've gathered, there's more Cons then Pros to this specific game play content.

- To players new to MMOs, they are unfamiliar to raiding (based on ES being a Single player for the majority of the series to the community for so long).
- Limited resurrections which leads to perfection requirements on guild recruitments to raid.
- Not role play friendly, in other words the player must have all class and weapon skills learned and maxed out with the correct morphing from suggested article.
- Player must have a lot of gold in respecing to perfect the battle raid group.
- Player must have a specific spec for that encounter to even participate.
- Content requires full balanced group to meet the trio guidelines to explore and complete quests, suggested quotes gives an idea that the map size is 1/3 of Cyrodil.
- Player must be willing to have all weapon skills maxed out, therefor is required by guilds *If such requirement is needed* to carry multiple of different weapon sets or 12 weapons minimal at all times with the included armor sets with different set bonuses to work with those weapon sets of additional bag space of 40 or more depending on the trio role. Not least but including all those weapons and armor sets need to be epic/legendary status.
- Player must have all Traits unlocked.
- Limited contented to a specific player based that results less than 2% which is concluded for a minority group.
- Reward Loot system suggested by quotes mentions a possibility that *Raid Weekly Rewards* are better than crafting and Vet dungeon drops in gear category and is limited to the top 100 raid groups per week. Which gives concern and possibility in PvP unbalance and completely voids crafted gear value.


So while the Hard Core based, the ones that didn't use the PvP exploit and get to Rank 10, from looking at the player base listings; the majority of us should be Rank 5-7. The simi-hard core should be Rank 1-2. Casual players should be around level 40-48. Multi-Character roleplay/non-roleplay makers should be around level 28-36.

That means, while Zenimax is suggesting this new Craglorn content is coming out next month or roughly 5 weeks at most, our first wave of monthly subscriptions is based on table list below:

- Leveling up alts up to 50.
- Finishing up Second and/or Third part of the faction story which will result of a Rank 5 or 10 Main Character.
- Continued or just now deciding to PvP in Cyrodil after reaching level 50 or a couple of Ranks.
- Completing the Cooking, Style, and/or Researching Traits.
- Misc: Max out Bag and Bank space, Max Horse Leveling, achievements/titles
- Craglorn/Trials (Limited to Raiding Guilds/Friends) for Veteran Experienced players only.


I am sure people will say that the first sub will be all of the above but I am curious on what specifically you will do in "May".

One of the best posts I have seen in this forum so far.

You explain very well why that new Adventure Zone could backfire heavy and that it isn't accessible for more than 90% of the playerbase.

While I fully support hard encounters, I think forcing players into Elitism is wrong. It destroyed raiding at wow and it will do so at TESO.

Again, a great post!

ESO is not forcing players into elitism. ESO is providing rewards for elitists while still making the content fun and doable by casuals. Are you saying you are gonna use up the whole 60+ resurrections and unlimited time?! Did you even read about Craglorn or did you just make assumptions.

The whole reason why WoW is declining in subscribers is because it is fulfilling the casual's needs and ignoring the elitists. Of course WoW offers tons of quests for a solo player but 90% of the players hate those quests. Players are also leaving because Blizzard is unnecessarily nerfing classes just because the casuals complained about it. The other reason why WoW is declining is because of LoL. LoL and Dota 2's huge prize is definitely attracting the hardcore players.

Cat_70ESO

The answer is simple, don't group with the kind of players you don't like. There are plenty of people who won't insist on certain builds and equipment sets for groups in Craglorn so group with them. Find some people who don't care about anything but having fun and join them, that's what I'll do and I'm sure many others will too. Of course there will be those super-groups that have the 'perfect build' but let them do their thing and you do yours.

Also, just because the design of Craglorn is for 4 man and 12 man groups doesn't mean that every other adventure zone will be the same. There is a lot of presumption in this thread, why not wait and see before judging. I understand that as this is the internet then everyone is an expert, but sometimes it pays to be informed before jumping to conclusions.

Melian

" It’s important to note that you won’t be required to finish the Trial within a time limit; you may run out of resurrections and have to start over, but your completion time only matters with regards to the leaderboard and bonus loot (the same kinds of loot you can receive once weekly for defeating the whole Trial)."

It sounds to me like it will work out this way: trials where you worry about the leaderboards = heroic raids, trials where you just try to kill the bosses = normal raids. It shouldn't be hard to find eleven people who are on the same page in that regard.

As for all of Craglorn being for raiders, that's silly. It's tuned for a group of four - a dungeon group. It's basically a huge dungeon, and last I checked, casuals ran dungeons.

Mortelus

Endlessvoid_ESO wrote: »

So after reading the recent article "Creating ESO: Trials" on how it being similar to raiding content, I started gathering my notes on the Pros and Cons with the game mechanics offered. From what I've gathered, there's more Cons then Pros to this specific game play content.

- To players new to MMOs, they are unfamiliar to raiding (based on ES being a Single player for the majority of the series to the community for so long).
- Limited resurrections which leads to perfection requirements on guild recruitments to raid.
- Not role play friendly, in other words the player must have all class and weapon skills learned and maxed out with the correct morphing from suggested article.
- Player must have a lot of gold in respecing to perfect the battle raid group.
- Player must have a specific spec for that encounter to even participate.
- Content requires full balanced group to meet the trio guidelines to explore and complete quests, suggested quotes gives an idea that the map size is 1/3 of Cyrodil.
- Player must be willing to have all weapon skills maxed out, therefor is required by guilds *If such requirement is needed* to carry multiple of different weapon sets or 12 weapons minimal at all times with the included armor sets with different set bonuses to work with those weapon sets of additional bag space of 40 or more depending on the trio role. Not least but including all those weapons and armor sets need to be epic/legendary status.
- Player must have all Traits unlocked.
- Limited contented to a specific player based that results less than 2% which is concluded for a minority group.
- Reward Loot system suggested by quotes mentions a possibility that *Raid Weekly Rewards* are better than crafting and Vet dungeon drops in gear category and is limited to the top 100 raid groups per week. Which gives concern and possibility in PvP unbalance and completely voids crafted gear value.


So while the Hard Core based, the ones that didn't use the PvP exploit and get to Rank 10, from looking at the player base listings; the majority of us should be Rank 5-7. The simi-hard core should be Rank 1-2. Casual players should be around level 40-48. Multi-Character roleplay/non-roleplay makers should be around level 28-36.

That means, while Zenimax is suggesting this new Craglorn content is coming out next month or roughly 5 weeks at most, our first wave of monthly subscriptions is based on table list below:

- Leveling up alts up to 50.
- Finishing up Second and/or Third part of the faction story which will result of a Rank 5 or 10 Main Character.
- Continued or just now deciding to PvP in Cyrodil after reaching level 50 or a couple of Ranks.
- Completing the Cooking, Style, and/or Researching Traits.
- Misc: Max out Bag and Bank space, Max Horse Leveling, achievements/titles
- Craglorn/Trials (Limited to Raiding Guilds/Friends) for Veteran Experienced players only.


I am sure people will say that the first sub will be all of the above but I am curious on what specifically you will do in "May".

- By the time they reach that content they will be/should be familiar. Everyone has to start somewhere.
- Play with friends who are not perfections and just want to have fun.
- I highly doubt that it requires players to be maxed in class and every weapon type. Again join a group that has all bases covered...
- Players will have a lot of gold at that point. Again though, I don't get this theory of respeccing or being perfect. Just play with people who want to have FUN!
- Please see above
- I sense you have just started to repeat yourself at this point...
- Traits, you could always, you know, buy a weapon if your not into crafting.
- Content is limited to groups yes... That's the point. Now we have great PvE, PvP (not done it so cannot judge it) and soon a whole new area dedicated to groupers... What's your point? Do you want to be able to solo this new content?
- If they make raid gear better than crafting gear, then I will be annoyed. This is one of the main attractions to this game... Crafting is actually worthwhile and crafters create the best gear in game, also crafting is self reliant and can be done by an individual without need for raiding or anything etc...

For your other points, Well you don't have to rush to 50, I won't be, hell I probably won't ever go to that part because I am playing from China and my lag will make the group weaker.
What has bag space got to do with anything?

This post just seems like one giant whine, I see one valid point about gear drops and the rest is just you repeating the same nonsense and then some.

Sorry to disagree, but I think you should relax and wait until it is actually released.
Also not everyone plays the game to be a perfectionist, some just want to have fun. Find a group like that and the game is 10 times better.

Mortelus

Sakiri wrote: »

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

Raid content in an MMO aimed at people who raid......

I have never seen this in any other MMO ever.






I died a little inside reading this thread.

Ah, if only it were just raids.
Overland zone with a major quest line... kinda reminds me of most of WoWs patches... except the entire zone is instanced to your group and if you dont have four solid people youre screwed.

Thats the part I hate. ENTIRE patch aimed at raiders, even the quest content.

And for the record, Ill probably be VR10 by then. Hit VR1 about four days ago and have been putzing around because Daggerfall sucks.

Well it is just a patch,1 patch, out of many patches to come. The game isn't evena month old. They want to make sure people have end content to do. Us PvE can role alts do +50 content etc...

Those who at already max, you have 3 choices, rage quit/boredom, PvP, and soon This whole new area dedicated to groups. raiding.

Will I feel like I am missing out on content because I play from China and lag is probably not great for me to join up and do group stuff? Maybe... But I appreciate that Zeni are doing something for everyone here.

If you don't like the idea, don't go there, enjoy the rest of the game, there's plenty of it.

Zorak

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

Raid content in an MMO aimed at people who raid......

I have never seen this in any other MMO ever.






I died a little inside reading this thread.

/thread

?!?!

loco

Endlessvoid_ESO wrote: »

So after reading the recent article "Creating ESO: Trials" on how it being similar to raiding content, I started gathering my notes on the Pros and Cons with the game mechanics offered. From what I've gathered, there's more Cons then Pros to this specific game play content.

- To players new to MMOs, they are unfamiliar to raiding (based on ES being a Single player for the majority of the series to the community for so long).
- Limited resurrections which leads to perfection requirements on guild recruitments to raid.
- Not role play friendly, in other words the player must have all class and weapon skills learned and maxed out with the correct morphing from suggested article.
- Player must have a lot of gold in respecing to perfect the battle raid group.
- Player must have a specific spec for that encounter to even participate.
- Content requires full balanced group to meet the trio guidelines to explore and complete quests, suggested quotes gives an idea that the map size is 1/3 of Cyrodil.
- Player must be willing to have all weapon skills maxed out, therefor is required by guilds *If such requirement is needed* to carry multiple of different weapon sets or 12 weapons minimal at all times with the included armor sets with different set bonuses to work with those weapon sets of additional bag space of 40 or more depending on the trio role. Not least but including all those weapons and armor sets need to be epic/legendary status.
- Player must have all Traits unlocked.
- Limited contented to a specific player based that results less than 2% which is concluded for a minority group.
- Reward Loot system suggested by quotes mentions a possibility that *Raid Weekly Rewards* are better than crafting and Vet dungeon drops in gear category and is limited to the top 100 raid groups per week. Which gives concern and possibility in PvP unbalance and completely voids crafted gear value.


So while the Hard Core based, the ones that didn't use the PvP exploit and get to Rank 10, from looking at the player base listings; the majority of us should be Rank 5-7. The simi-hard core should be Rank 1-2. Casual players should be around level 40-48. Multi-Character roleplay/non-roleplay makers should be around level 28-36.

That means, while Zenimax is suggesting this new Craglorn content is coming out next month or roughly 5 weeks at most, our first wave of monthly subscriptions is based on table list below:

- Leveling up alts up to 50.
- Finishing up Second and/or Third part of the faction story which will result of a Rank 5 or 10 Main Character.
- Continued or just now deciding to PvP in Cyrodil after reaching level 50 or a couple of Ranks.
- Completing the Cooking, Style, and/or Researching Traits.
- Misc: Max out Bag and Bank space, Max Horse Leveling, achievements/titles
- Craglorn/Trials (Limited to Raiding Guilds/Friends) for Veteran Experienced players only.


I am sure people will say that the first sub will be all of the above but I am curious on what specifically you will do in "May".

"PvP exploit and get to VR10..."

Stopped reading there, you don't have a clue mate.

I'm sad that AZ's aren't real raid content that's challenging, instead of a "who can clear it fastest"

Way to trivialize your content before it's even released ZOS.

Csub

If I recall correctly, they said that there should be an update every couple of weeks and each should target a different group so not everyone will like them for the same amount.

First they release a raiding content, which, I think, is a good idea (and I am only lvl 30 at the moment so I'm not saying this since I'm a hardcore raider or whatever but raids are usually am important part.of endgame contents). With the next patch they might make the PVP oriented people happier with, for example, an update to Cyrodill. After that they might make crafters happier (Although they could make them happier in each update since they can always put new recipes for professions, regardless of the type of.the expansion.) or the single player or even smaller group oriented people.

They also hinted about Thieves' Guild and Dark Brotherhood to come later, those could spice PVP as well as make solo oriented people happier.

crimsonBZD

I disagreed with this about the time someone said they looked at the raiding mechanics from a different game and applied it to what they said about Craglorn.

I was rolling with these guys who thought they'd roll this all numbers exactly like WoW. We rolled through the last area's dungeons no problem, but two of them just couldn't stand it how they were expected to "move around" and "problem solve" in battle and kept complaining.

The thing about this game is you can be specced wrong for a fight, change your tactics and still come out the victor.

Catches_the_Sun

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

It is quite funny really.

They make a game where you pretty much play solo and from 0 friendships or groups. Ok , i guess this comes from the whole ES feeling the game should have.

Now , when you reach vet 10 , they turn the game into a group thing...

Yeah ... not gonna do it , sorry devs. Either they also create content for single players , or im out when the story is over. I made 0 friends while lvling for the first time in a MMO lols , im not gonna just join a bunch of randoms at end game because the devs said i must to get their content.

If you've made no friends, that's not an ESO problem, that's a YOU problem. I have made several, through the Guilds system, through instanced dungeons, and (gasp) through trading (without an Auction House).

I think the entire OP is based on assumptions, and I'm putting zero stock in it. I'll try to Craglorn when it releases and form an opinion based on experience, rather than theories.

Getorix

MMOs are being destroyed by these people who all want to be able to solo for the best gear in the game. I really hope the devs don't cave to these people who will leave as soon as they get handed all their epic gear.

zaria

Endlessvoid_ESO wrote: »

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

Raid content in an MMO aimed at people who raid......

I have never seen this in any other MMO ever.

I died a little inside reading this thread.

Before you start commenting, please try to be a little more informative than this. Its not about why this MMO has raiding, its how can we get everyone to raid.

Right now judging from the articles from Zenimax stating what this patch will contain and what we have now on game mechanics, its asking too much from the majority of player base and limits other players that are role playing; to be included in this content. I would like to see the restrictions lessen considerably so everyone can access it but yet to be seen. I am theorizing that "Craglorn" will ever make or break TESO, the way this is set up.

Think you misunderstand the presentation a bit.
As I understand the trials has an timer however making it in time just affect the bonus reward, you can use 12 hours or even give up before the final boss and you still get all the normal drops.
Where is an limit on resurrections to 5 wipes or 60 deaths, past this and it look like you have to restart.

In addition is more 4 man dungeons and an new zone who works like other zone you can go solo or as a group so you can ignore the raid if you want.

As I see it most will not even try to get a timed run, even less try to get on the top 10 list same as you can enjoy pvp without aiming for the emperor title or even to hold a keep.
the top 10 list is for hardcore raiders, the same way the emperor title is for hardcore pvp.

The only thing I'm skeptical to is the 60 death limit. My wow guild wiped more than 20 times most times we raided
perhaps simply change it too: 61 deaths disqualify you for an timed run even if you finish in time.