[Nightblade] stealth completely broken

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

Invisibility is over rated maybe that's why I barely use it even as a nightblade (keep it on my bar only for the armor proc and the free hit lol its way more usefull to reserve the mana to stuff that deals direct damage or heal you). You would however be most inspired to stack your stamina and keep it high so that you don't get chain locked. Ive screwed a lot of sad warriors who were just spamming their stamina blindly because they didn't had what was necessary to break out of a stun of 12 second (watching you wait while I full heal).

Idk at this point some people lack the common sense not to use their stamina in pvp.

Regardless lesson is don't trust into stealth trust into a sharp instant kill build or a strong armor, Stealth is only the bonus and I wouldn't have a fight ruined just because I got revealed before placing a hit.

MoMoOG

Obscure wrote: »

@‌MoMoOG

Potions don't remove CC...you can't even activate them while stunned. The best you get is a 3 second immunity with them, slightly and unnoticeably longer with the Alchemy passive for 30%.

I can detect entire stealthed groups in 20m. I can turn off the stealth disengage of anyone to include a VR10 with a level 3 potion made of possibly the most common Alchemy mats in the game. I can make thousands of these potions for next to nothing but the time it takes. I can improve the duration to 13 seconds and reduce the 30 second potion cool down by 15 seconds. Basic math, that's 2 seconds I can't see you and you have no idea which 2 seconds that might be. I've watched Nightblade's burn through all of their magic trying to go invisible to disengage while I chase and kill them. Invisibility is heavily countered in this game all you need is Corn Flower and Wormwood...just add water!

Half of you described relates to use against stealth which is not invisibility. You also forget to mention that CC can be broken with just stamina while invisibility cant. Invisibility has a ridiculous number of uses in this game so I find it silly to try and discredit it as an ability just because it has counters in pvp.

Xnemesis

Ill test but I believe you can use ambush from steath then pop invis before you reach your target and get the +damage and crit bonus.

Obscure

@MoMoOG

Invisibility is mechanically identical to stealth while active. Any distinction made is based on how it is activated alone. You have a DoT active when you enter invisibility? You will drop invisibility. You stub your toe in invisibility? You drop invisibility. Someone sneezes on you in invisibility? You drop invisibility. By the way if that guy spent 30 minuets picking flowers earlier today your invisibility is just a good way to dispose of your magicka.

Invisibility can very much be broken with stamina, and magicka for that matter. Just pick an AoE that does damage. I don't need to discredit invisibility, it's poor usage is self evident, and it does a mighty fine job of discrediting itself as a reliable disengage.

MoMoOG

Obscure wrote: »

@MoMoOG

Invisibility is mechanically identical to stealth while active. Any distinction made is based on how it is activated alone. You have a DoT active when you enter invisibility? You will drop invisibility. You stub your toe in invisibility? You drop invisibility. Someone sneezes on you in invisibility? You drop invisibility. By the way if that guy spent 30 minuets picking flowers earlier today your invisibility is just a good way to dispose of your magicka.

Invisibility can very much be broken with stamina, and magicka for that matter. Just pick an AoE that does damage. I don't need to discredit invisibility, it's poor usage is self evident, and it does a mighty fine job of discrediting itself as a reliable disengage.

The point is not whether their mechanics are similar or not. The point was that the discussion as about invisibility which is a Nightblade specific ability. Stealth is an ability that is available to all. So given an example of how one can detect entire battalions of crouched individuals in pvp has nothing to do with invisibility because those people are using stealth. Are we now trying to say stealth is useless in this game too?

Dude you realize there is a PVE side to this game? You realize that when I said "discredit" invisibility I'm talking about the ENTIRE game? This is like making a thread about how terrible puncture in 1h/shield line is because it does not taunt in pvp.

Also invisibility is not a disengage in this game. Was never intended as a disengage. Its just an alternative form of limited self survival. Lets not also forget about passives attached to it such as shadow barrier. I would still use it in pvp even if I never got a second of invisibility out of just for that passive.

Obscure

@MoMoOG

First, your right on the money. I am saying invisibility (stealth), if the enemy knows your within a 20m radius, is useless. Correct. Gold star. You're absolutely understanding what I'm saying.

Second, PvE invisibility is not any better, and your presumption that it is indicates you have not gotten far enough into PvE content for you to notice. The AI doesn't care you're invisible, it will retain agro, they will chase you, and when you drop out they will resume killing you.

Thirdly, there is no difference between "disengage" and "an alternative form of limited self survival". Call it whatever you like, crap is still crap even if you call it poop.

Edit: P.S. Invisibility is not Nightblade specific, I have a potion for that.

MoMoOG

Obscure wrote: »

@MoMoOG

First, your right on the money. I am saying invisibility (stealth), if the enemy knows your within a 20m radius, is useless. Correct. Gold star. You're absolutely understanding what I'm saying.

Second, PvE invisibility is not any better, and your presumption that it is indicates you have not gotten far enough into PvE content for you to notice. The AI doesn't care you're invisible, it will retain agro, they will chase you, and when you drop out they will resume killing you.

Thirdly, there is no difference between "disengage" and "an alternative form of limited self survival". Call it whatever you like, crap is still crap even if you call it poop.

Edit: P.S. Invisibility is not Nightblade specific, I have a potion for that.

Your first paragraph is nonsensical drivel which just shows you weren't able to comprehend what you were replying to.

Its pretty obvious you just don't understand how the ability is supposed to be use to be used in pve.

Disengage implies agro drop. So yes there is a big difference.

One last note I forgot. By running around in pvp spamming counter invisibility potions like an idiot you are locking yourself out of other potions. Brilliant!

Obscure

@MoMoOG

Oh yes please go on. Clearly none of what I've indicated is substantiated in its entirety by the game itself. More players should just listen to you and ignore me...and the game mechanics...and reality for that matter.

Go ahead, I won't stop you. I enjoy screening Cyrodiil for bad Nightblades who think invisibility is great...I also give them no pity when they can't get in a dungeon group.

Edit:

MoMoOG wrote: »

One last note I forgot. By running around in pvp spamming counter invisibility potions like an idiot you are locking yourself out of other potions. Brilliant!

Clearly the only play style you comprehend exists is spamming something like an idiot... like invisibility while I have my potion active...

LunaRae

Stealth is really weird in this game, I think there are plenty of mechanics to work out. Have any of you also noticed in dungeons if you are drawing the most agro and go invis the mobs stop, stand there and don't attack party members, and when you come out of invis they go back on you? Even bosses behave this way, which is sort of interesting cause you can go invis for quite some time, allowing party members to regroup. Either way though stealth is messed up.

MoMoOG

LunaRae wrote: »

Stealth is really weird in this game, I think there are plenty of mechanics to work out. Have any of you also noticed in dungeons if you are drawing the most agro and go invis the mobs stop, stand there and don't attack party members, and when you come out of invis they go back on you? Even bosses behave this way, which is sort of interesting cause you can go invis for quite some time, allowing party members to regroup. Either way though stealth is messed up.

Yup, and this specific use is particularly strong on a nightblade tank.

Reavan

In pvp nb is the only class that can reliablely stealth after attacking.
Others can but its more risky.
Ofc bugs happen but hey.
I wish they'd increase the cost of invisibility but make you sneak every time with aoes, mage light, reapers mark etc being the counter.

Also increasing detection radius of plate and cloth.

Rilyharytoze

MoMoOG wrote: »

LunaRae wrote: »

Stealth is really weird in this game, I think there are plenty of mechanics to work out. Have any of you also noticed in dungeons if you are drawing the most agro and go invis the mobs stop, stand there and don't attack party members, and when you come out of invis they go back on you? Even bosses behave this way, which is sort of interesting cause you can go invis for quite some time, allowing party members to regroup. Either way though stealth is messed up.

Yup, and this specific use is particularly strong on a nightblade tank.

^^This...not a tank but I effectively tanked/soloed the first boss in Veteran BC because of it...entire party was dead after killing off the flame atronachs and from the I soloed the bosses 36k health pool..when paired with a few other abilities shadow cloak makes for an excellent cooldown

Medwin

gweatherall_ESO wrote: »

Invisibility should absolutely be a complete aggro wipe. There is nothing game-breaking about being able to shake NPCs. This would not have any negative impact in PvP, and in PvE, it's the only Nightblade tool for escaping from combat.

I agree 100% plus if others want to get in on it they can use Invisibility Potions.

fennecbuttrwb17_ESO

Daendur wrote: »

Celless wrote: »

Drathmar wrote: »

ITT OP whines because the game is working as intended but he doesn't like what was intended.

Enemies following you while Invisible is working as intended?

enemies don't do that, and tbh they actually interrupt an heavy/special attack if you go stealth. simply they don't lose agro, and when you come out of stealth they re engage

I am going to freaking record a video just for this thread. They do damn-well do that. And it needs to be addressed.

fennecbuttrwb17_ESO

kirnmalidus wrote: »

Invisibility doesn't imply the don't know you are there, just that they aren't sure exactly where you are. If someone attacked you and then disappeared you wouldn't assume they were done attacking you and give up, you'd be on alert for them to reappear.

Also, not all creatures use sight to locate enemies.

Yes, but for me to go invisible, and for the AI to just sit there and stare into space, waiting for me to reappear, EVEN while 3 other people are stabbing its *** guts out with greatswords is just...wrong.

Everybody keeps talking about stuns. As I have said, I don't *** care about your stuns - the skills gives you INVISIBILITY. Yes, I know one can stun from stealth, I play a night blade. But what I have been saying is that they have called it invisibility, whereas it should really just be an interrupt button; there is NOTHING invisible about it, when AI is concerned.

And I am speaking from a mainly PVE perspective, can't be bothered with PVP with lag spikes and anti-stealth mods out there. And even then, all it takes is mage-light to screw our class over. As per usual, stealthy class in MMO has been boned...what's new.

fennecbuttrwb17_ESO

Obscure wrote: »

@‌MoMoOG

Potions don't remove CC...you can't even activate them while stunned. The best you get is a 3 second immunity with them, slightly and unnoticeably longer with the Alchemy passive for 30%.

I can detect entire stealthed groups in 20m. I can turn off the stealth disengage of anyone to include a VR10 with a level 3 potion made of possibly the most common Alchemy mats in the game. I can make thousands of these potions for next to nothing but the time it takes. I can improve the duration to 13 seconds and reduce the 30 second potion cool down by 15 seconds. Basic math, that's 2 seconds I can't see you and you have no idea which 2 seconds that might be. I've watched Nightblade's burn through all of their magic trying to go invisible to disengage while I chase and kill them. Invisibility is heavily countered in this game all you need is Corn Flower and Wormwood...just add water!

Thank you so much for intelligently coming at a problem, unlike the people in this thread who are here to claim that I'm just whinging. And thank you to all the others who have made good points, too, even if those points might be converse to my own. :P

fennecbuttrwb17_ESO

MoMoOG wrote: »

LunaRae wrote: »

Stealth is really weird in this game, I think there are plenty of mechanics to work out. Have any of you also noticed in dungeons if you are drawing the most agro and go invis the mobs stop, stand there and don't attack party members, and when you come out of invis they go back on you? Even bosses behave this way, which is sort of interesting cause you can go invis for quite some time, allowing party members to regroup. Either way though stealth is messed up.

Yup, and this specific use is particularly strong on a nightblade tank.

Yes, but as much as a NB tank might use it, the skill is broken if it is meant to be "invisibility".

If I am INvisible, then the enemy can't see me. They know I am somewhere, as someone pointed out, but they don't quite know where, so they SEARCH. What is happening is that AIs are LOCKED ON to you and invisibility just DELAYS their attacks, it doesn't make them SEARCH for you again.

After exiting invisibility, 500 meters away, the eye will open instantly and the enemy comes running over without a problem. Even if I am crouched, even if I am over a hill and far away, hiding behind a stone column etc etc. Broken.

If nobody else cares, then that is fine. But I just wanted to bring it up, and see how other people feel about it, and hope that ZOS addresses it.

All people seem to be doing here is talking about hidden (from crouching) + PVP when I am talking about invisiblity (from skill) + PVE...

V1k1ng

I have tested and retested this, and my conclusion along with many others is that "Shadow Cloak" isn't working as intended. My experience:

I'm a Shadow NB Bowman. I use Shadow skills when enemies get close, and it almost always takes to 2 tries to get "Shadow Cloak" to conceal me. The first time I use the skill I cloak and immediately get uncloaked, then use the skill again and its usually works properly the second time. The problem is using "Shadow Cloak" twice rids me of almost all my magic leaving little to do with my other Shadow skills. This needs attention ASAP, as I know many other skills in the NB tree are messed up too, making this class mostly broken. /sigh

gweatherall_ESO

For people claiming that Shadow Cloak making you invisible and dropping threat being overpowered, have you ever played any other video game where going invisible does not either drop threat completely, move enemies from an aggressive to a 'searching' state, or something similar? I'm not just talking about MMOs, but I can't think of any game ever where "Invisibility" allows the enemy to still have aggro on your and/or know exactly where you are.

Currently, the skill is nice when morphed to allow for 100% crit on the next attack, and a slight reprieve from combat, but it certainly does not function the way invisibility is typically understood and to argue that it does is really weird.

Lynx7386

fennecbuttrwb17_ESO wrote: »

It seems not a single one of you actually read what I said.

I wasn't saying stealth wasn't a good interrupt. I wasn't saying I wanted the *** damage bonus every time.

What I am saying is that I am INVISIBLE and yet the enemy follows TWO STEPS BEHIND ME while I'm INVISIBLE and waits for me to reappear before continuing attacking. What I am saying is that I can go INVISIBLE and run far away, hide behind a cliff and crouch, come out of INVISIBILITY and the eye instantly opens, enemy runs right on over.

Aggro + stealth is totally ***.

As a nightblade tank I'm glad it works this way. If invisibility was an aggro dump or caused you to exit combat, I wouldnt be able to use it at all as a tank. With the current behavior of the ability, though, I can combine it with one of the shadow passives to give me a massive boost to armor and spell resistance for 4 seconds on top of letting me stun an enemy with surprise attack in the middle of combat.

Ralathar44

Obscure wrote: »

@‌MoMoOG

Potions don't remove CC...you can't even activate them while stunned. The best you get is a 3 second immunity with them, slightly and unnoticeably longer with the Alchemy passive for 30%.

I can detect entire stealthed groups in 20m. I can turn off the stealth disengage of anyone to include a VR10 with a level 3 potion made of possibly the most common Alchemy mats in the game. I can make thousands of these potions for next to nothing but the time it takes. I can improve the duration to 13 seconds and reduce the 30 second potion cool down by 15 seconds. Basic math, that's 2 seconds I can't see you and you have no idea which 2 seconds that might be. I've watched Nightblade's burn through all of their magic trying to go invisible to disengage while I chase and kill them. Invisibility is heavily countered in this game all you need is Corn Flower and Wormwood...just add water!

A game where stealth has a counter? Insanity!!

RangerChad

You should be happy they don't lose agro, they would just reset. think before you want to worry about something so silly. Me stealth me win, PVP yes. PVE it requires a little bit of tactic. You are no longer being attacked, which is something few classes have the luxury of.

fennecbuttrwb17_ESO

RangerChad wrote: »

You should be happy they don't lose agro, they would just reset. think before you want to worry about something so silly. Me stealth me win, PVP yes. PVE it requires a little bit of tactic. You are no longer being attacked, which is something few classes have the luxury of.

I WANT them to reset, though. For example, if I only want to take out one of them, or if I have to run away with my tail between my legs, I CAN'T because they lock on like *** terminators.

RangerChad

Then use it when you need it and keep running to avoid the damage, still you have something most classes don't and would like. I have to run and hope for my life as I run away taking damage, hoping not to agro any more mobs on the way lol. Kill mob, run, stealth, run stealth, rinse and repeat until mobs reset. It's not meant to be an agro break, stealth never worked that way in any Elder Scrolls game. The enemy would still look for you without any care of what level of sneak you have. This is an Elder Scrolls MMO, and it has a few things that mesh between Elder Scrolls and MMOs. Stealth classes in most MMOs get to do whatever the heck they want, it's not that way for this game.

gweatherall_ESO

RangerChad wrote: »

Then use it when you need it and keep running to avoid the damage, still you have something most classes don't and would like. I have to run and hope for my life as I run away taking damage, hoping not to agro any more mobs on the way lol. Kill mob, run, stealth, run stealth, rinse and repeat until mobs reset. It's not meant to be an agro break, stealth never worked that way in any Elder Scrolls game. The enemy would still look for you without any care of what level of sneak you have. This is an Elder Scrolls MMO, and it has a few things that mesh between Elder Scrolls and MMOs. Stealth classes in most MMOs get to do whatever the heck they want, it's not that way for this game.

There is a big difference between looking for you, and knowing exactly where you are, even after breaking line of sight. I'm also not sure where you're coming from with your point about stealth not breaking aggro in Elder Scrolls games, because that's exactly how it works in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. If you are evading an enemy and stealthed, they will give up searching much faster than if you're just running away without crouching. Skyrim even had the 100 point sneak ability that worked almost exactly the same as Shadow Cloak. You crouch during combat and go invisible, and if you are sufficiently far from an enemy or out of line of sight when the invisibility wears off, they can't see you.

Everybody seems to be conflating the terms stealth and invisibility, when they are two separate things. All classes can enter stealth by crouching. Nightblades have the unique ability to use Shadow Cloak, which grants them 2.5 seconds of invisibility, this is different from stealth. Since so many people seem to want to compare it to other ESO games, think of it this way: Invisibility is (in theory) the same as 100% Chameleon.

Obscure

@‌Ralathar44

The presence of a counter and the prevalence of a counter are a bit different things. I'm always in favor of counterplay, but it should be intelligent counterplay. At least force me to use a potion of a level appropriate to the people I'm revealing (though I think VR5 is the highest level I think can be made so maybe give that one a pass to discover any level enemy). I enjoy having a counter, heck I think it's the only way to balance any mechanic in ESO. But realistically, should that counter be common? What does that do to the meta game? How does it effect build diversity? Are certain play styles made less viable or not viable at all? These are questions that anyone with a brain behind their eyes should ask.

davidetombab16_ESO

shadow cloak> disguise or dark cloack are totally broken, are only good in pve for stupid boss meccanics but do not work properly in pvp, any effect or if u cast a dot on any enemies breaks stealth and dark cloack does t remove any negative effect. Sorc can blink , DK most skills simple op, NB best tank of game thx to a shadow bug and leching strike but very crap in pvp, the only class worse than the nb is the Templar(probably)
sry my bad english

Chryos

Not sure why people keep saying they crash so much, I play alot and almost never crash, ever.

MoMoOG

gweatherall_ESO wrote: »

For people claiming that Shadow Cloak making you invisible and dropping threat being overpowered, have you ever played any other video game where going invisible does not either drop threat completely, move enemies from an aggressive to a 'searching' state, or something similar? I'm not just talking about MMOs, but I can't think of any game ever where "Invisibility" allows the enemy to still have aggro on your and/or know exactly where you are.

Currently, the skill is nice when morphed to allow for 100% crit on the next attack, and a slight reprieve from combat, but it certainly does not function the way invisibility is typically understood and to argue that it does is really weird.

Most games also have cool downs on abilities that make you drop threat. If this ability dropped threat a nightblade would literally never die in pve. I think the devs wanted to put an invisibility ability in the nightblade line but had to find a way to keep it balanced in no cool down system.

It the ability dropped threat it would also make several of the current abilities/passives that the nightblade has far less useful in pve (veiled strike/refreshing shadows/shadow barrier). Just looking at veiled strike/passives makes it very clear that the current design of shadow cloak is what the devs intended.

Obscure

@MoMoOG
It's a deficiency in the AI coding. They are actually working on fixing it, and it's primarily noticeable in Cyrodiil with fixed position NPC's that are agroed on a player that is out of range. You can literally stand next to them and not be attacked simply because the AI doesn't reprioritize targets based on availability. It will be fixed in coming updates and finally you'll start agreeing that Invisibility is garbage that was only useful due to exploitation of lazy AI coding.

When you peer into the eyes of the NPC's, you simply cannot fathom the degree of stupid peering back at you.