[Nightblade] stealth completely broken

fennecbuttrwb17_ESO

I am enjoying this game a lot, despite having to log-out and back in every 10 minutes to be able to complete a quest; despite crashing to desktop every other 10 minutes.

But having played a Nightblade to level 32, I have realised that there is something fundamentally wrong with the way aggro works with stealth in this game.

When crouched, I am hidden. I can sneak up behind/to the side of an enemy with relative ease, and I will get an attack bonus when I hit them. This "crouch" stealth is working great.

However, I've found there are several issues with the "invisibility" gained from the skill "Shadow Cloak".

First, if I am "hidden" from crouching, sneak up and then use Shadow Cloak to gain invisibility (redundant, I know), the eye indicator is still closed, but I lose the attack bonus, even though the enemy has not detected me yet.

Second, if I am in combat, I have aggro and the enemy is attacking me, and I use Shadow Cloak to gain invisibility, and the eye indicator closes to indicate that I am hidden through invisibility. Except that often the enemy will FOLLOW ME, when I am "invisible", not hitting me until I am visible again. When the enemy DOESN'T follow me when I am INVISIBLE, when I come out of "invisibility" it will instantly see me and come to wreck my ***, whether I am crouched or not, whether I have run quite a way away, whether I have hidden behind scenery objects that would normally block their view.

This fundamental of my class is completely broken. This is the mainstay of the nightblade, crits and this is all we have as unique skills, essentially.

I would like to see that I can go "invisible", and the enemy would go back to "search mode" so that if I run far away and crouch, aggro will drop. Same thing if I run behind scenery that they wouldn't normally detect me behind and crouch, aggro will drop.

Invisibility at the moment is essentially canEnemyAttack = false and that is it. Still sees me, still follow me; should be renamed to "Look up invisibility in the dictionary". Shameful AI/gameplay design.

Lynx7386

I'm starting to think this is working as intended. It can be annoying at times, but imagine how powerful nightblades would be if invisibility gave you the same damage bonus that stealth did?

It's pretty powerful already that I can open with a stealth attack, stunning the target, then hit them with uppercut for another stun, and then pop invisibility and use surprise attack for yet another stun (and repeat that as many times as my magicka bar allows). If invisibility gave us the same stealth damage bonus, our damage output would be way higher than any other class.

Unfortunately the side effect is that this balancing system interferes with using invisibility to close the last few feet with an enemy that might otherwise detect you if stealthed.


So, working as intended most likely - invisibility is designed to give you one of four effects:
1) a temporary aggro break in pve to let a tank get an enemy off of you, or in pvp to confuse and disorient an enemy player
2) a method of stunning enemies via veiled/surprise attack
3) a way to either break free of negative effects or gain a temporary 100% critical chance bonus via invisibility's morphs
4) A good way to sneak by enemies that would otherwise spot you while stealthed

Stealth is more powerful, but is also limited by stamina drain and the ability to be detected, along with being slowed down while moving.

mike.crewsb14_ESO

I was just about to post on this topic. Shadow Cloak is not the same as sneaking. AFAICT, it's actually something different and better than sneaking.

Shadow Cloak amounts to a ranged INTERRUPT. I was fighting Merdyndril the Alchemist in the Deshaan world quest "Plague Bringer". He kicked my butt a couple of times, then I noticed if I entered Shadow Cloak just as his poison pool appeared, his Shade buddy would not spawn, and his poison cloud would not form. Basically, I interrupted his special attack by entering Shadow Cloak. He was an easy kill after that.

MoMoOG

If you are sneak attacking then go invisible you still get the sneak attack bonus just fine if you are attacking form side/behind. Nothing broken with it.

You can't drop agro with invisibility. I don't understand how you can't see how ridiculously overpowered it would be if you could drop agro using this ability whenever you wanted considering that there are NO COOLDOWNS in this game. The only mobs that will "see" through your invisibility and attack you while you are still invisible are some dungeon bosses which are also cc immune. I believe this is again to keep the ability balanced with cc abilities.

fennecbuttrwb17_ESO

It seems not a single one of you actually read what I said.

I wasn't saying stealth wasn't a good interrupt. I wasn't saying I wanted the *** damage bonus every time.

What I am saying is that I am INVISIBLE and yet the enemy follows TWO STEPS BEHIND ME while I'm INVISIBLE and waits for me to reappear before continuing attacking. What I am saying is that I can go INVISIBLE and run far away, hide behind a cliff and crouch, come out of INVISIBILITY and the eye instantly opens, enemy runs right on over.

Aggro + stealth is totally ***.

gweatherall_ESO

Invisibility should absolutely be a complete aggro wipe. There is nothing game-breaking about being able to shake NPCs. This would not have any negative impact in PvP, and in PvE, it's the only Nightblade tool for escaping from combat.

mike.crewsb14_ESO

MoMoOG wrote: »

The only mobs that will "see" through your invisibility and attack you while you are still invisible are some dungeon bosses which are also cc immune.

Merdyndril the Alchemist is immune to CC yet Shadow Cloak interrupts his special attack, as surely as if I were in melee range and hit both mouse buttons.

I want to see if Consuming Darkness works the same way.

ArgonianAssassin

Agreed, it's weird to pop invisibility and then have whatever mob follow me around for a quarter mile, the only way I've gotten it to work as an aggro dump is to just keep sitting there spamming the ability until I've turned at least 2 corners and would be way out of their aggro range anyways.

mike.crewsb14_ESO

But it does break aggro while it is in effect. I think it would be kinda overpowered if it broke aggro completely. I'm pretty happy to discover it can interrupt specials at range. That's pretty "special" isn't it?

Omniphonic

aggro reset wouldn't just be overpowered, it would be gamebreaking. you couldn't use it solo anymore because mobs would reset back to full.

Chelo

ArtsOfficialNipple wrote: »

aggro reset wouldn't just be overpowered, it would be gamebreaking. you couldn't use it solo anymore because mobs would reset back to full.

Actualy thats the way invisibility work in most MMOs, at first I thougth it work the same way here... But later I understand the mechanic of this game...

Drathmar

ITT OP whines because the game is working as intended but he doesn't like what was intended.

Crescent

This game has the most balanced stealth of any game. You get one powerful opener but you can't just spam stealth to constantly reset fights to your favor without heavy penalties.

And the basic function of stealth is available to all classes. Nightblades just get more stalling skills.

I think the problem most stealthers from other games will have is adjusting to a less OP stealth mechanic.

fennecbuttrwb17_ESO

Well, fine. If people don't mind invisibility really just being a stun, because you may as well *** be visible, then whatever. Have fun with it.

I am going to finish this game, because I love the story/quests, but after that, Zenimax has lost my subscription.

What with the duplication bugs etc recently (I have seen screenshots of banks full of legendary tempers, millions of gold), that have not been addressed at all, if they even have the facilities available to tell who exploited the bug (I doubt it).

Not to mention the idiots who coded the game, who send positional information even when a character is stealthed, allowing cheaters to use hacks that make you visible in PVP (visible here, don't know if I can post links: http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/2a36/hhhs9b6uk1uv35qfg.jpg?size_id=6) even if you're hidden or "invisible". All movement and stamina etc is done client-side, so people can just change the values in-memory and the game and servers don't care one but.

This game is just a massive *** mess, and all I can find are fanboys who are too afraid to admit it. I love this game and I want to see it succeed, but it seems I'm sailing on a sinking ship.

Hodorius

I dont even read those "completly broken" threads anymore... they are all the same.

Anyone knows a good joke?

Edit: To stay within the community rules... you are wrong!

Daendur

fennecbuttrwb17_ESO wrote: »

[cut]
First, if I am "hidden" from crouching, sneak up and then use Shadow Cloak to gain invisibility (redundant, I know), the eye indicator is still closed, but I lose the attack bonus, even though the enemy has not detected me yet.

That is not true. Using shadow cloak when crouched is not redundant (sometimes). It let you become completely invisile and walk in front of a mob without being detected. This can be useful when you cannot get a straight access to mob's back. So you have to use shadow cloak, go behind it , and then attack. If you attack from crouch+shadow cloak you will still have the crouch bonus damage (if attack from 180° back)

fennecbuttrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Second, if I am in combat, I have aggro and the enemy is attacking me, and I use Shadow Cloak to gain invisibility, and the eye indicator closes to indicate that I am hidden through invisibility. Except that often the enemy will FOLLOW ME, when I am "invisible", not hitting me until I am visible again. When the enemy DOESN'T follow me when I am INVISIBLE, when I come out of "invisibility" it will instantly see me and come to wreck my ***, whether I am crouched or not, whether I have run quite a way away, whether I have hidden behind scenery objects that would normally block their view.

aggro reset on stealth will lead to

1. easy way for packs of mobs
2. undoable boss fights.

so it's not borken as it is. it's fine since it is a easy in-combat stealth.

Doowie

I just want them to fix Haste, so I can finally get this ability used with my Bow, which at the moment .... doesn't work!

fennecbuttrwb17_ESO

Daendur wrote: »

fennecbuttrwb17_ESO wrote: »

[cut]
First, if I am "hidden" from crouching, sneak up and then use Shadow Cloak to gain invisibility (redundant, I know), the eye indicator is still closed, but I lose the attack bonus, even though the enemy has not detected me yet.

That is not true. Using shadow cloak when crouched is not redundant (sometimes). It let you become completely invisile and walk in front of a mob without being detected. This can be useful when you cannot get a straight access to mob's back. So you have to use shadow cloak, go behind it , and then attack. If you attack from crouch+shadow cloak you will still have the crouch bonus damage (if attack from 180° back)

fennecbuttrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Second, if I am in combat, I have aggro and the enemy is attacking me, and I use Shadow Cloak to gain invisibility, and the eye indicator closes to indicate that I am hidden through invisibility. Except that often the enemy will FOLLOW ME, when I am "invisible", not hitting me until I am visible again. When the enemy DOESN'T follow me when I am INVISIBLE, when I come out of "invisibility" it will instantly see me and come to wreck my ***, whether I am crouched or not, whether I have run quite a way away, whether I have hidden behind scenery objects that would normally block their view.

aggro reset on stealth will lead to

1. easy way for packs of mobs
2. undoable boss fights.

so it's not borken as it is. it's fine since it is a easy in-combat stealth.

Then rename it to stun-button, because that's what it is. Not "invisibility".

Especially seeing as it is out most unique skill; everybody else can get the regular crouch hidden, only we can get "invisibility".

Daendur

fennecbuttrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Then rename it to stun-button, because that's what it is. Not "invisibility".

Especially seeing as it is out most unique skill; everybody else can get the regular crouch hidden, only we can get "invisibility".

indeed you can have every bonus that you have in stealth and exiting stealth.
in pvp you can stealth go away and crouch
mob just keep agro. not a great problem tbh.

MoMoOG

Reading between the lines I can see that the OPs problem, like many, is to incorrectly assume that nightblade = rogue. Thus he assumes everything has to revolve around invisibility. In this game, medium armor + medium armor passives = rogue.

Celless

Drathmar wrote: »

ITT OP whines because the game is working as intended but he doesn't like what was intended.

Enemies following you while Invisible is working as intended?

Daendur

Celless wrote: »

Drathmar wrote: »

ITT OP whines because the game is working as intended but he doesn't like what was intended.

Enemies following you while Invisible is working as intended?

enemies don't do that, and tbh they actually interrupt an heavy/special attack if you go stealth. simply they don't lose agro, and when you come out of stealth they re engage

Yankee

I made VR1 on my NB with all the medium armor and class stealth passives (and wear all medium armor). I find it actually works pretty good, most of the time.

It does bug out now and then. But normally if I shadow cloak a mob will just stop and stand there until I come out.

The only annoying times are named quest mobs in the scripted quests. Many of them see you as soon as they appear. That means a loss of the intitial stealth opener which does quite a bit of damage.

I stealth right up to the front of mob packs in dungeons until the eye starts to open, hit shadow cloak, and pass right through them. Works like a charm.

Beats kiling everything sometimes unless I need crafting materials. Just don't mis-time your cloak while solo around the 8 mob packs lol.

Code2501

The obvious solution to implementing invisibility properly and not OP is to simply look at the REAL elder scrolls games and give both players and select NPC's detect life and detect undead spells/potions/scrolls/staves.

Then we could have Illusion based magic users who could use a real elder scrolls style invisibility that drains mana the same way stealth drains stamina and it would be the balanced and handy utility spell it was intended to be.

Drathmar

Celless wrote: »

Drathmar wrote: »

ITT OP whines because the game is working as intended but he doesn't like what was intended.

Enemies following you while Invisible is working as intended?

Yes, it is not intended for it to be an aggro drop or a PvE escape skill. It's there so we can proc our stun in mid combat, as an interrupt, and as a defensive skill with the passive.

It does actually work as invisibility in PvP as well but in PvE it would make it so we never die if it worked like you want it to which would be dumb.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

Im all fine with doing one single one shot per fight generaly the healer (mark + 2h sword heavy attack + stealth = oh sorry I didn't meant to slice you in two) the rest is done via hacking and slashing the survivors

kirnmalidus

Invisibility doesn't imply the don't know you are there, just that they aren't sure exactly where you are. If someone attacked you and then disappeared you wouldn't assume they were done attacking you and give up, you'd be on alert for them to reappear.

Also, not all creatures use sight to locate enemies.

Code2501

kirnmalidus wrote: »

Also, not all creatures use sight to locate enemies.

True, imagine a morph that added muffle to the visual illusion so as to make it work on bats and such.

Obscure

Invisibility isn't crap because of bad AI programming... It's bad because a little Corn Flower, Wormwood, and water can shut it off for a minimum of 10 seconds at a time.

For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, go pick some Corn Flower, Wormwood, and use the lowest level water you can find (I prefer level 3 or 10) at an Alchemy table...I typically carry no less than 100 with me into AvA.

MoMoOG

Obscure wrote: »

Invisibility isn't crap because of bad AI programming... It's bad because a little Corn Flower, Wormwood, and water can shut it off for a minimum of 10 seconds at a time.

For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, go pick some Corn Flower, Wormwood, and use the lowest level water you can find (I prefer level 3 or 10) at an Alchemy table...I typically carry no less than 100 with me into AvA.

Right cause you can't do the same thing with potions that remove cc right? I guess all cc abilities are crap in pvp too right?

Obscure

@‌MoMoOG

Potions don't remove CC...you can't even activate them while stunned. The best you get is a 3 second immunity with them, slightly and unnoticeably longer with the Alchemy passive for 30%.

I can detect entire stealthed groups in 20m. I can turn off the stealth disengage of anyone to include a VR10 with a level 3 potion made of possibly the most common Alchemy mats in the game. I can make thousands of these potions for next to nothing but the time it takes. I can improve the duration to 13 seconds and reduce the 30 second potion cool down by 15 seconds. Basic math, that's 2 seconds I can't see you and you have no idea which 2 seconds that might be. I've watched Nightblade's burn through all of their magic trying to go invisible to disengage while I chase and kill them. Invisibility is heavily countered in this game all you need is Corn Flower and Wormwood...just add water!