Necromancy Skill-Line

Glurin

IIRC, Necromancy wasn't outright banned until shortly before the Oblivion Crisis. Outside of that, it was generally frowned on. There's loads of dialog in the game indicating such is the case. And again, in Skyrim, Necromancy wasn't explicitly forbidden, but it was something best kept out of public view.

But we also have lore showing conflicts between the Mages Guild and Necromancy before the Oblivion Crisis. So it seems to me that Necromancy is a school of magic who's acceptance largely depends on the political climate and opinions at the time. So the question you have to ask is if it would be tolerated in this particular time period where the Mages Guild is concerned.

drwoody44b14_ESO

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I love that you have no doubt a necromancy skill line will open up. Those of us who have paid attention to the lore have some serious doubts that it will make it in.

If it does, it needs to carry some serious penalties.

Lore went out the window when I ran naked through the cities with my buddie rocking stage 4 vampire and him with WW form.

Also Skyrim walking around with the corpse of Ulfric

Oblivion and Morrowind skeletons

Nope, your argument is invalid. In the end, this is an mmo wearing the skin of the Elderscrolls series. Lore means *** vs gameplay when it comes down to it, and a simple "Necromancers are frowned upon but are not illegal" written into the description is all it takes......because vampire/ww cure mechanic said so.

Lord_Hev

drwoody44b14_ESO wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I love that you have no doubt a necromancy skill line will open up. Those of us who have paid attention to the lore have some serious doubts that it will make it in.

If it does, it needs to carry some serious penalties.

Lore went out the window when I ran naked through the cities with my buddie rocking stage 4 vampire and him with WW form.

Also Skyrim walking around with the corpse of Ulfric

Oblivion and Morrowind skeletons

Nope, your argument is invalid. In the end, this is an mmo wearing the skin of the Elderscrolls series. Lore means *** vs gameplay when it comes down to it, and a simple "Necromancers are frowned upon but are not illegal" written into the description is all it takes......because vampire/ww cure mechanic said so.

Except, it doesn't have to stoop that low... because there is NOTHING lore breaking about it in the first place.

jdandrews108b14_ESO

For now, I'm pretty sure that that NPC characters are using the act of Necromancy to prove you are in legion with the worm cult
I.E. you summon something dead, you are a bad guy.
Some quests (for the Ebonheart Pact at least) would tell you to kill Necromancer's on sight and as far as I know (only half done with mages guild, but into VR) there are not any "good" Necromancer's you work with outside of maybe Tharn dabbling in it.
That's all the lore I will want to keep, only what's within this game now.

That being said, I would really like to see a Justice system implemented first so that if you do pick up a forbidden art (as most Elder Scrolls games let you do) you would be shunned by others.
Terra's outlaw system was pretty cool and would love to see something along the lines of that implemented in ESO.
Player's could buy a scroll they used on themselves to declare themselves outlaws, which would flag them hostile to all players and let them kill any other player. City guards of course would be hostile to them as well giving non outlaws a place of safehaven. If you want Necromancy (a forbidden magic) obtaining the skill would permanently mark you as an Outlaw.
Putting in some Black Market NPC (thieves guild will bring goodies) who can sell you fake "Identification Paper's" which will turn off the outlaw flag for a duration.

Just my 2 cents.

KingRebz

just add necromancy..please LOOL

Lord_Hev

jdandrews108b14_ESO wrote: »

For now, I'm pretty sure that that NPC characters are using the act of Necromancy to prove you are in legion with the worm cult
I.E. you summon something dead, you are a bad guy.
Some quests (for the Ebonheart Pact at least) would tell you to kill Necromancer's on sight and as far as I know (only half done with mages guild, but into VR) there are not any "good" Necromancer's you work with outside of maybe Tharn dabbling in it.
That's all the lore I will want to keep, only what's within this game now.

That being said, I would really like to see a Justice system implemented first so that if you do pick up a forbidden art (as most Elder Scrolls games let you do) you would be shunned by others.
Terra's outlaw system was pretty cool and would love to see something along the lines of that implemented in ESO.
Player's could buy a scroll they used on themselves to declare themselves outlaws, which would flag them hostile to all players and let them kill any other player. City guards of course would be hostile to them as well giving non outlaws a place of safehaven. If you want Necromancy (a forbidden magic) obtaining the skill would permanently mark you as an Outlaw.
Putting in some Black Market NPC (thieves guild will bring goodies) who can sell you fake "Identification Paper's" which will turn off the outlaw flag for a duration.

Just my 2 cents.

In the AD, almost every single Ebonheart Dunmer mage that I had to fight in a quest in Auridon was labeled[Pact NECROMANCER] and surely enough was resurrecting skeletons and zombies.

Necromancy is a tool. It is used. It is lore friendly. Nothing is black & white. Lore cry is a fallacious argument. Stop it.

rager82b14_ESO

Like i said lore can be changed, and should be change for fun factor.

KingRebz

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Like i said lore can be changed, and should be change for fun factor.

thank you! people treat it as it is breaking the law..man this is the MMO of ES..it has to be a bit of everything..

Thesiren

I understand the OP's point, but then again, Necros are in just about every MMO out there. One thing I like about Elder Scrolls is that most of the class skills are different from the norm (okay, maybe not all the weapon ones, but most of the class ones at any rate).

And power sets are among the hardest things to program in any game (with all the animations, particle effects, etc.). Usually those take a year or more of work to put forth, which is why you don't see them crop up very often in already-established MMOs.

Humor

KingRebz wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Like i said lore can be changed, and should be change for fun factor.

thank you! people treat it as it is breaking the law..man this is the MMO of ES..it has to be a bit of everything..

Ah.. it's true this i an mmorpg, but from what I've noticed thus far into Elder Scrolls Online (TESO), as I've been keeping up to date with lore, and storyline's is that like many said before hand, Necromancy is only bad should you "choose" to use it as such means.

It doesn't necessarily mean you're evil, and even throughout Skyrim and Oblivion, summoning undead as necromancy has not been seen as bad, and you were still able to part-take in the Mages Guild, and so forth.

TESO talks a lot about necromancy being bad, and forbidden magic and so forth, but the fact is, earlier videos of TESO have shown the MAIN MAN who has created all this Lore about TES, and if you really look into it, he can do whatever the hell he wants, considering it's "his" story. Should he says Necromancy is the god of all magic, and all that is holy, he's absolutely 100% right. Why? Because it's his story.

I think of TESO first and fore-most an Mmorpg at it's core, sure it has the Storyline, and some lore of TES, but really, how many people are actually listening to these things? I'd bet less than half of the people playing TESO are listening to lore, and just rushing through stuff. So... Adding in Necromancy to those players is just like "W/e, new class/skill line to try out".

Fact is, more Mmorpg players are playing this than TES fan's, thus, Lore is eventually, if no already going to have absolutely nothing to do with this game. I predict somewhere along the line we're even going to SEE Dwemer (Dwarves), as players are going to eventually get bored.

Anywho. Point is Necromancy good, or bad, should be in TESO. Summoning Minions, and such is awesome in pretty much any game =P.

Dimachaerus

I like how people who wants necromancy keep saying "It's an mmorpg, lore doesn't mean anything".

Lore means everything, the game is build around a story and a world, that world has rules like any other, those rules can be broken, but then it is no longer part of the original story.

I can guarantee that the dev's have been paying close attention to the lore when making this game as evident in the gameplay, and will do so in the future when considering new content.

Having players run around raising the dead and having the dead follow the players into cities would not really fit in.

Someone mentioned heavy penalties and having the choice to practice necromancy but at the cost of not being in the mages guild and maybe banned from some places/cities.
This would be more fitting I guess.

I have no problem with giving players more options, but the dev's have to implement it in a way that makes sense, to the story and the lore.

-

Conjuration is not necromancy as some say.

Also, they should make city guards hostile if you change to WW inside a city.

Lord_Hev

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Like i said lore can be changed, and should be change for fun factor.

There is no changing. There is no lore being broken. This is just some people following a Black & White dogma.

Dimachaerus wrote: »

I like how people who wants necromancy keep saying "It's an mmorpg, lore doesn't mean anything".

Lore means everything, the game is build around a story and a world, that world has rules like any other, those rules can be broken, but then it is no longer part of the original story.

I can guarantee that the dev's have been paying close attention to the lore when making this game as evident in the gameplay, and will do so in the future when considering new content.

Having players run around raising the dead and having the dead follow the players into cities would not really fit in.

Someone mentioned heavy penalties and having the choice to practice necromancy but at the cost of not being in the mages guild and maybe banned from some places/cities.
This would be more fitting I guess.

I have no problem with giving players more options, but the dev's have to implement it in a way that makes sense, to the story and the lore.

-

Conjuration is not necromancy as some say.

Also, they should make city guards hostile if you change to WW inside a city.

Sorcerers in AD can enter the home of the most staunchest Daedra haters on the face of Nirn with two Daedric creatures shadowing him. Strawman argument is a strawman argument.


There is nothing lore breaking about necromancy. You are stretching as much as those whom claim not to care about lore. Because you're both wrong. YOU'RE ALL STRETCHING THINGS HERE. Strawman arguments left and right!

The lore of TES is moral nihilistic. Black & White logic fails here. Stop with the pedantic argumentation and nit-picking. Stop with the stretching of strawman fallacies. Stop with the absurd logical reasoning and stubborn dogmas. This is a time period where everyone and their dog is dabbling in the necro, because we have soulbursting and plane-melding all up in this place.

Dimachaerus

Lord_Hev wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Like i said lore can be changed, and should be change for fun factor.

There is no changing. There is no lore being broken. This is just some people following a Black & White dogma.

Dimachaerus wrote: »

I like how people who wants necromancy keep saying "It's an mmorpg, lore doesn't mean anything".

Lore means everything, the game is build around a story and a world, that world has rules like any other, those rules can be broken, but then it is no longer part of the original story.

I can guarantee that the dev's have been paying close attention to the lore when making this game as evident in the gameplay, and will do so in the future when considering new content.

Having players run around raising the dead and having the dead follow the players into cities would not really fit in.

Someone mentioned heavy penalties and having the choice to practice necromancy but at the cost of not being in the mages guild and maybe banned from some places/cities.
This would be more fitting I guess.

I have no problem with giving players more options, but the dev's have to implement it in a way that makes sense, to the story and the lore.

-

Conjuration is not necromancy as some say.

Also, they should make city guards hostile if you change to WW inside a city.

Sorcerers in AD can enter the home of the most staunchest Daedra haters on the face of Nirn with two Daedric creatures shadowing him. Strawman argument is a strawman argument.


There is nothing lore breaking about necromancy. You are stretching as much as those whom claim not to care about lore. Because you're both wrong. YOU'RE ALL STRETCHING THINGS HERE. Strawman arguments left and right!

The lore of TES is moral nihilistic. Black & White logic fails here. Stop with the pedantic argumentation and nit-picking. Stop with the stretching of strawman fallacies. Stop with the absurd logical reasoning and stubborn dogmas. This is a time period where everyone and their dog is dabbling in the necro, because we have soulbursting and plane-melding all up in this place.

Everyone is doing necromancy? normal citizens aren't scared of the dead?

I think you're just making stuff up.

drwoody44b14_ESO

Hey guys, I'm participating in a vampire hump train right in the middle of the capital city. Theres guys dancing in WW form right in front of the guards as this is happening. I'm pretty sure I've been told that both should be killed asap by npc's and quest lines as they are bad people no matter what.


Lets continue to argue about Lore shall we?

Lord_Hev

Dimachaerus wrote: »

Everyone is doing necromancy? normal citizens aren't scared of the dead?

I think you're just making stuff up.

Yeah. Especially the Dunmer of the Ebonheart Pact. Every enemy Dunmer Pact mage I fight is a necromancer.

This is a time of all-out war, and Oblivion intrusion. The Queen's/King's/whatever faction's Ace-in-the-hole has every right to utilize any means to aid their cause and stop Bal. Including using their own magic against them[Sorcerers already do this] What the citizens think means nothing.


You are still avoiding the point about Sorcerers running around Auridon; home of the Altmer; with two Daedra shadowing them. "can't have necromancers running around town" is a Strawman. By that logic, Sorcerers must be promptly removed from the game as playable. Vampires and Werewolves too!

Tapio75

Werewolves, Vampires among us in broad daylight, and some people wish tio impose great penalties to practice of necromancy.

And why not penalties? Why not just add the whole evil side to this game as well so we can just be good or evil as we want. Just like in previous TES.

Drafo

Reading through this thread has been very... interesting. As someone who loves lore, I'd like to clear a few things up.

Let's start by getting what should be obvious out of the way. Lore is flexible. Especially in the context of an MMO. In previous TES games, you could go from an average prisoner who just gained freedom to super-stealth thief/assassin, epic magic-wielding arch-mage, and indestructible tank-before-tanks-existed warrior, all wrapped into one, in less than a week. Now think about the fact that there are thousands upon thousands of other players, all of whom need to be able to get just as powerful as you. Not to mention the fact that your friend could save a guy from a cave a few minutes after you saved the SAME EXACT GUY from THE SAME EXACT CAVE. So when it comes to lore, you need to have an open mind. Otherwise you'll go crazy. That being said, I would like to try and clarify a few misunderstandings I'm seeing in the lore.

1. First of all, the only TES game where the player can use necromancy with their own power is Skyrim. It was only possible in Oblivion through use of the Staff of Worms. Beyond that, the closest thing was summoning skeletons and zombies. However, since you were SUMMONING them, not REANIMATING, it was not technically necromancy.
2. In TES III Morrowind, the native Dunmer did NOT use necromancy (excluding the lords of House Telvanni). Their family's burial tombs were protected by the spirits of their ancestors, which is actually similar in nature to those who are blessed when they pray at altars to the Divines. Aedra, the Elvish term for the Eight/Nine Divines (before Skyrim, Talos was accepted by Men and Mer alike) translates roughly to "Our Ancestors." In other words, the Divines are thought to be ancestor spirits who happen to be more significant/powerful than most. Therefore, there is a crucial distinction between necromancy and ancestor worship.
3. Necromancy was not banned by the Mages Guild until 3E 431, about 800 years after the events of ESO.
4. The main antagonist of TESO is Mannimarco, a necromancer working for Molag Bal. This does not mean every necromancer works for Molag Bal, nor does it mean every servant of Molag Bal is a necromancer. It also does not attest to an inherent loathing of all Daedra by the general populace.
5. A few people have mentioned how you can walk around with a Clannfear and Winged Twilight and no one will blink an eye. This might be a bit of a stretch, but a possible explanation for this is that the current time period is one with lots of dangers. Therefore, lore-wise, it makes sense for lots of heroes to rise up against these dangers. Some may choose to combat it with a sword, others a bow, and others a staff. This is why you see lots of people we call "players" running around. They are all heroes who have risen up to defend Tamriel against the many crises that threaten her.

As a closing statement, remember not to take lore literally all the time. There are plenty of things in ALL the games that contradict some kind of lore at some point or another. Instead of cringing at it, you could try what I do, which is come up with your own explanation. For example, in TES IV Oblivion, beggars will occasionally say "Blessings of Mystara upon ye." There is absolutely no entity in TES universe called "Mystara." This was apparently put into the game as an inside joke, referencing a D&D setting. Obviously, this doesn't make sense lore-wise. So I thought, "Well, beggars are generally poorly educated, so it doesn't seem too unlikely that they might get a few names confused and wind up with Mystara." Lore is very similar to real-life history in that the full truth is seldom, if ever, told.

DeLindsay

This will be covered in Spellcrafting which has been put off until at least after Console release. There is no reason for ZoS to add a new Skill Tree for it.