Nightblade worthless as traditional duel weild in dungeons

deacon13

I don't know if anyone has posted on this I looked didn't see any a lot of post to go thru . Sorry if anyone has .

I have played a scout type class in a lot of games . I prefer duel wield in your face and backstabbing type classes . So far Ive did BC and EH and for the vast majority using duel wield and not the bow line was harmful to group performance . To many mob AOEs and Cones . Much like another game I know of . Every time you run in to dps you are risking group failure to do so . Finger wigglers and Bowman don't . Plus the skill lines in the 3 trees that could use for defense are worthless if you are out of magika because of the limited amount you get .

Devs need to add something to the class that makes it ALOT more tougher or ALOT harder to be hit

I honestly wished I had went with another class .

I think anyone with a IQ over 70 is going to think . Why should we take a duel wield NB when a Mage or Bowman does good damage and wont be a handicap to the group . If you are the biggest risk you are a handicap .

Other games have a REASON to bring that type of class . Great buffs . Great DPS. Great Debuffs . These other games are far less AoE crazy . So give the class something

Now some troll will say he is just screaming because he dies from AoEs instead of getting out . Yes I have died from AoEs . Pretty sure everyone has died from AOEs . The point is Ranged DPS runs a far lower risk of being hit so why would you take a traditional duel wield to a fight ?

Varivox9

They have blur (and I use it as a melee oriented destruction staff user too!). Blur and Medium armour's active adds dodge. Throw on some heavy armour, learn to block/dodge roll, and I've had few issues with the aoe in either of those dungeons.

The truth is, Ranged DPS has ALWAYS had a lower risk of being hit. It's why they are ranged, it's one of the main benefits. You can make the same argument in any MMO.

dccharacter

I'd agree. I can take down a single/dual monsters a few levels higher before they realize what's going on - combine Magika and Stamina abilities. But a tough enemy or five regulars will see you to the grave in a blink of an eye. YOu can't escape - all the ranged attacks are homing. You can't effectively avoid attack as very often you see your enemy just walking by and suddenly you die - with no visible cause. Bottles are useless - with 30 secs cooldown I manage to die five times before I can drink another one.
- I tried to invest all the points in Magika and even started a new character. Just to learn on Level 8 that my char is "unbalanced" and pumping more points in Magika is restricted. So I'm not saying I do awful - I do descent... But dying 8 times in a row just because a skeleton looked at you in an angry way - that's ridiculous. I have a huge experience playing Dendy games - with no saves and a lot of "hit and run". But in ESO there's no "run" part. Once they found you, you can't outrun them, you can't hide any more, and you are already out of health (all the points invested in Magika), out of Magika (Abilities are costly, enemies are tough" and Stamina (you've been trying to outrun the enemy, remember?).
- So, no... not a lot of fun.

Varivox9

invest in health then. It sounds like your going for a glass cannon by the way you are investing solely in magicka, which they should not have a high survivability at that point. My current (lvl 31) build is 15magicka/10 health/5stam build and I do fine. NB is pretty bad at AoE tbh.

Invest in snares, the teleport strike morph that adds a snare to everyone is a huge help to me all the time. The stun ulti is another huge bonus.

I'd ask, what type of armour are you running too? my melee NB/destro staff guy uses 5heavy/2 light, augments magicka regen in rings, heals himself, snares everyone, and generally just rocks.

not all builds are the same either, it sounds like you need to add in a bit of survivability to it in the form of CC and armour. Siphon abilities are amazing too. I would never not use strife, ever.

MisterTuggles

I think the biggest problem with this game at the moment is that everything is about burst DPS via your skills. You spam skills from magicka, you spam skills through stamina. Basic attack are rarely, if ever, viable.

I've been playing a NB, and trying to figure out how to make a viable DOT based skill bar using the siphon line. It falls far short. I can kill mobs, but it takes a VERY long time when compared to a sneak + ambush + concealed strike which usually will end a mob +/- 5 levels of me. One cycle of that to kill a mob vs cycling 3-4 dots, and kiting... doesn't make much sense.

Jaxom

From my brief stint playing, I've gone full boat into Health. I use my armor slots to pump Stamina/Magicka. Currently at level 33, I'm over 1500 health and 800 stamina/magicka.

Most of my melee abilities are magicka based so I have a lot of magicka regen and magicka reduction. I'm a vampire so my Drain Essence gives me a full Stamina bar per use.

I found that specing for health has always left me last to die in dungeons, even taking 50% more fire damage. You just need to be mindfull of your surroundings.

deacon13

Varivox9 wrote: »

They have blur (and I use it as a melee oriented destruction staff user too!). Blur and Medium armour's active adds dodge. Throw on some heavy armour, learn to block/dodge roll, and I've had few issues with the aoe in either of those dungeons.

The truth is, Ranged DPS has ALWAYS had a lower risk of being hit. It's why they are ranged, it's one of the main benefits. You can make the same argument in any MMO.

I will use say EQ2 for example because I can remember it the best . Now it had several duel wield classes . Brigand HUGE DPS and Massive Debuffs . Swashbuckler Good DPS and Good Group buffs Trob Huge group buffs and good dps etc etc plus they seemed much harder to kill than NBs . Unless they give them something to make them worth the risk of bringing and a way to keep them alive Bowman all the way .

As far as blur goes I think it is like 14% not to get hit plus cost Magika

MoMoOG

I believe the main mitigation tool for melee NB dps is supposed to be Shadow Cloak + Shadow Barrier passive. Are you consistently using this to keep your armor/spell resistance up?

I really believe all active mitigation tools for each class, such as the one described above, are intended to be used for melee dps classes to stay alive in melee. Tanks are already so close to overcharged with heavy armor + heavy armor passives that they don't nearly get the same benefit that medium/light armor classes get from using the active mitigation abilities.

deacon13

MoMoOG wrote: »

I believe the main mitigation tool for melee NB dps is supposed to be Shadow Cloak + Shadow Barrier passive. Are you consistently using this to keep your armor/spell resistance up?

I really believe all active mitigation tools for each class, such as the one described above, are intended to be used for melee dps classes to stay alive in melee. Tanks are already so close to overcharged with heavy armor + heavy armor passives that they don't nearly get the same benefit that medium/light armor classes get from using the active mitigation abilities.

Reasonable . Does Shadow Cloak cost Magika ? If so you lower your DPS by keeping that in reserve . Where a Bowman doesn't need to .

MoMoOG

deacon13 wrote: »

Reasonable . Does Shadow Cloak cost Magika ? If so you lower your DPS by keeping that in reserve . Where a Bowman doesn't need to .

It does cost magika but there are other perks associated with Shadow Cloak that can potentially offset this such as the morph which turns it into Shadowy Disguise giving you 100% crit on next attack, the passive Refreshing Shadows which gives 30% stamina regain after using Shadow Cloak, and finally the opportunity to combo into Veiled Strike. The issue of melee vs ranged risk is also usually balanced with melee abilities generally doing more damage then ranged abilities.

Chelo

You should try using Blur and Evasion together and just have 3 dps skills plus the ultimate... You are not going to do huge dps but at least you are going to survive...

Also the game give you the option of using 2 damn different weapons. Swamp weapon for the situation and dont stand still with your classic rogue build, people need to understand this type of gameplay switching between weapons because the game is meant to play like this...

steinernein

Bad player is bad. Also bad teammates.

Chelo

People in general are having so much troubles trying to understand this gameplay, its too hard/punishing for the MMO newbies and too unusual for the classic MMO players who try to stick to the classic builds and character concepts...

You should try to understand the game just by itself and not think about what you usually do in other MMOs...

Mobius0

The advantage of melee NB is a significantly higher ambush damage modifier. Most mobs can be 1-2 shotted with a successful melee ambush.

*Note that to ambush, you must wait until you are fully hidden (The eye can be partially open, but you must first have waited the initial 3 seconds or so, after crouching.), and you must attack the target from the side or behind.

Granted, I often prefer bow, simply because it's usually much easier to set up an ambush. Problem with bow, though, is haste doesn't work with it.

Honestly, my main problem with NB PvE, with ANY of the stamina based weapon types, is that in the end, staff is king for PvE.

steinernein

Staff is king because it has the lowest Margin of error. It is not king if you know the mechanics of the game and your build is tailored around optimization.

Yankee

My Nightblade is both a dual wield, for sneaky questing fun. he is also a bowman for times when in your face style is too dangerous.

It is also nice for when I bite off more mobs than I should and run out of melee magicka on one bar. I just swap to my bow stamina bar. That has saved me more than once.

Not sure I understand why you cannot do both also.

Mobius0

steinernein wrote: »

Staff is king because it has the lowest Margin of error. It is not king if you know the mechanics of the game and your build is tailored around optimization.

AoE is the best thing to have for maximum XP yields. And nothing else a NB can get compares to Impulse.

deacon13

Again the whole point of the post is . WHY TAKE A DUEL WIELD NB ?

There is less risk in a Bowman . So what could the Devs do to make the risk worth the reward ?

MysticAura

Make the dual do more damage..oh wait

rofflemywafflez

deacon13 wrote: »

Again the whole point of the post is . WHY TAKE A DUEL WIELD NB ?

There is less risk in a Bowman . So what could the Devs do to make the risk worth the reward ?

I happen to agree as well.

I'm a lvl 22 Khajit Nightblade in full-medium armor and I find that dual-wielding is not as great as I thought it would be.

My class skills are basically set-up for maximum DPS bursts (I use rapid strikes too), but when taking on mobs of 5+, I feel I don't have the same capabilities as a ranged character.

Yeah, I know there is Blur, Evasion and other skills to help me evade, but I don't have enough space on my bar for that, so my main evasion is just to go invisible and use veiled strike for the stun. It's pretty awesome 1v1...groups, not so good.

I think there could be a couple solutions to this. One is the basic point of the OP, 1) Make dual-wielding better.
2) Maybe if we had extended bar (say 7 skills + ultimate instead of 5) there would be more flexibility in combat.

I have a bow in my secondary bar that I equip with long-range siphoning abilities and that works when I need to transition from melee to ranged... but it's boring. See, I believe it's possible to create a great synergy of skills that make you hard to hit with dual, but it's just plain boring to always go that way. I think there should be a decent reward if you want to play with a playstyle that befits the individual, and just the "most awesome best build possible". You feel me?

I think the game is still being balanced, and things will change in the future. it's still very new.

rofflemywafflez

MoMoOG wrote: »

I believe the main mitigation tool for melee NB dps is supposed to be Shadow Cloak + Shadow Barrier passive. Are you consistently using this to keep your armor/spell resistance up?

I really believe all active mitigation tools for each class, such as the one described above, are intended to be used for melee dps classes to stay alive in melee. Tanks are already so close to overcharged with heavy armor + heavy armor passives that they don't nearly get the same benefit that medium/light armor classes get from using the active mitigation abilities.

^

This.

Yelgis

Level 22 is a poor place to judge it though. Resource management is pretty much impossible that low and using any skills drains pools very quickly. It gets much better at higher levels where you can use many more skills.

Niminion

DW is just all around more efficient and higher dps. I have a sorc DW/Bow. I use the bow at range while I weave bow attacks between magika attacks until I am out of magika. Then I pull out the DW set for the rest of the fight, because maintaining surge will use most of my magika for the rest of the fight and only using bow is much lower dps.

I agree some bosses are just hard as melee and I will use the bow the entire fight to be safe.

I have no problem with aoe using Whirlwind. Why waste magika on weapon aoe attacks when you can use class skills and stamina aoe attacks? Maybe it's different for NB then sorc.

rofflemywafflez

Yelgis wrote: »

Level 22 is a poor place to judge it though. Resource management is pretty much impossible that low and using any skills drains pools very quickly. It gets much better at higher levels where you can use many more skills.

You're probably right about that, and I'll take that into consideration, but personally I still wish I had more capabilities in combat.

Right now with my "main" set of skills I've been using, I have no room for Siphoning Strikes, and the problem is, I REALLY like my current skillset that I have lol.

I think we need room for some more skills. I want flexibility!

mblythe21b14_ESO

A dodge modifier added into the medium armor line would have been a good addition. Still would be.

Drathmar

rofflemywafflez wrote: »

Yelgis wrote: »

Level 22 is a poor place to judge it though. Resource management is pretty much impossible that low and using any skills drains pools very quickly. It gets much better at higher levels where you can use many more skills.

You're probably right about that, and I'll take that into consideration, but personally I still wish I had more capabilities in combat.

Right now with my "main" set of skills I've been using, I have no room for Siphoning Strikes, and the problem is, I REALLY like my current skillset that I have lol.

I think we need room for some more skills. I want flexibility!

I think this as well. I think it should be something more like you can have 2 bars of 5 skills + ultimate each, or if you want to use the same weapon for both you can have an option to have 10 skills + 2 ultimates for that weapon without having to switch.

rofflemywafflez

mblythe21b14_ESO wrote: »

A dodge modifier added into the medium armor line would have been a good addition. Still would be.

Yeah. I think a dodge passive in the dual-wield line would be great. That's traditional RPGish too.

My question is, even though we have all these ideas guys, what's the chance that the dev's would actually take these ideas into consideration? I'm guessing adding or changing just one skill would massively change the game at this point, so I'm wondering if everything is pretty much set-in-stone, or is the game still in a state of constant development?

deacon13

Ok
I have the Bow Tree and DW Tree and My 3 Class Trees . The game is build to be able to change things around .

When Raid time comes people will be made to use the Bow Tree . As in you Will Not be allowed to Raid unless you are ranged DPS . You will be forced in to a role that you will have to play if you want to go . Once addons are more complete and they compare dps between Bowman and Sorc you still might not be allowed to go .

I know that a lot of the raids Ive been on in other games , they are set up so that even with perfect group set up the chances of winning are not high . They required almost 50% support classes and carefully selected DPS . DPS that were high dps and brought some form of additional group benefit .

About every boss Ive killed so far AOEs and Frontals were involved doubt it will change when they are Raid bosses . Unless DW NB has something added doubt you will be in there swinging . If Bowman dps doesn't equal Sorc dps you might not be in there at all . Again Im referring to REAL raid guilds .

Im using Raids for example because the same could be carried over into tough dungeons .

As far as solo ability of the DW NB I do OK . Don't think its as good as other classes Ive tried . Wish it were a bit better . The goal for me is to get to end game content and be a viable member of group game play as a DW NB .

Bhakura

deacon13 wrote: »

. The point is Ranged DPS runs a far lower risk of being hit so why would you take a traditional duel wield to a fight ?

Killer blade is why.
+ my dual wield setup outdpses my ranged, rapid strikes is just plain silly damage.

epictrollheals513

Drathmar wrote: »

rofflemywafflez wrote: »

Yelgis wrote: »

Level 22 is a poor place to judge it though. Resource management is pretty much impossible that low and using any skills drains pools very quickly. It gets much better at higher levels where you can use many more skills.

You're probably right about that, and I'll take that into consideration, but personally I still wish I had more capabilities in combat.

Right now with my "main" set of skills I've been using, I have no room for Siphoning Strikes, and the problem is, I REALLY like my current skillset that I have lol.

I think we need room for some more skills. I want flexibility!

I think this as well. I think it should be something more like you can have 2 bars of 5 skills + ultimate each, or if you want to use the same weapon for both you can have an option to have 10 skills + 2 ultimates for that weapon without having to switch.

I dont think that would be fair at all, while i do agree that maybe 1-2 more skill slots on each bar would be nice. I mean could you imagine the advantage a player would have over everyone using two different weapons if they used one weapon and got ten skill spots and two ultimates on the same bar!!! Now that would be madness, leaving everyone who used two different weapons at a huge disadvantage

bsanayei

This build here is insane AOE damage you can play with some of the morphs but this gives you crazy damage.

The weapon damage bonus from the power extraction is HUGE.

http://esohead.com/calculator/skills#ccVXt0GFlM8IPS08w2Ct8rrXF8GFts8IPwA85oT7NMRMA8t7rrsg18C7mLzqa6bzqq8F7JNzrO6rbux8zR7zzEwXB