Crafting needs experience!

temjiu

I personally feel that crafting should return some experience. Doesn't have to be a huge amount, but it should have a small amount per item crafted. similar to killing a mob. I know...a mob often requires hopping and blocking and interrupting, more involvement. but the time is very similar (when you include gathering time).

Research should likewise return experience on the level of quest rewards, modified by its time frame (a.k.a an 18hr research should return higher exp then a 6h research)

IMO this would fit the crafting system here perfectly. it would also allow players an alternative to grinding to keep their levels up to par with the quests. and it would allow crafters to earn some skill points doing what they enjoy the most. It's sort of irritating to craft your day away, and then realize that you don't have any skill points to advance your craft...and you have to go do non crafting stuff to get the skill point to craft.

Keep in mind im not asking for a way to get from 1-50 without leaving the forge. you still need materials, and unless you spend your entire time trading (which is almost more work then grinding mobs), you will have to go out and collect materials, kill the mobs near them, etc. it still takes time to gather resources so you can even craft.

total exp shouldn't get you past lvl 10 or 15 if you did nothing but craft your entire time in the game. but it should be there.

Fahrice

100% disagree. You shouldn't get crafting levels from killing, and you shouldn't get adventuring levels from crafting. How do you get better at killing zombies by making swords? Or how do you get better at making armor by murdering mammoths?

Makes no sense at all.....

The two should be a trade off. Invest time in what you want to be good at. Simple as that.

Salsadoom

I can see both viewpoints actually, it's a problem inherent in the system. True, you shouldn't get better at crafting by killing things, but you can gain level by adventuring and get skill points which you can improve your crafting line.

So a no crafting you can get better while just fighting, but crafting itself doesn't get you any skill points to improve crafting lines.

I don't think there is really an answer, it's just a flaw in how the system works so it really isn't fair to say crafting shouldn't increase level while you can increase crafting line by fighting.

Ideally there would be crafting skill points or some such that you can only gain by crafting various challenges, which would be a built in limit on how good at all the crafting styles you could be.

AbraCadabra

Sure, that would be great getting experience for crafting. However it wasn't designed that way for THIS game.

sociald100ub17_ESO

the time you spend crafting isn't much of a time investment, its the time you spent out killing stuff and opening sacks and barrels and gathering mats that is the time and you get xp from exploring as well as killing stuff along the way. its find just how it is.

temjiu

sociald100ub17_ESO wrote: »

the time you spend crafting isn't much of a time investment, its the time you spent out killing stuff and opening sacks and barrels and gathering mats that is the time and you get xp from exploring as well as killing stuff along the way. its find just how it is.

I agree with you to a part. but if you spend any serious time crafting, your spending allot of time doing little things. try and manage crafting materials for an account full of characters and you'll know what I mean. the actual "craft" time is a few button presses...but this also has to take into account the server amount of time managing all the materials, storing and moving around items to maximize your research, etc.

So the smaller amount of exp you get from crafting the actual item would take into account all the prep work you do to get the items and materials ready and time taken managing them in your limited inventory rather then just selling everything and getting back into the grinding. it's time you could be out there killing more monsters, and getting more skill points for crafting, ironically, through questing.

Look at questing. you don't get experience for each time you talk to an NPC, or finish a stage in the quest. you get a lump at the end that takes into account all the running around you did to finish the quest.

A good example is the assassination quest in kenarthi's roost. a total of 5 actual stages, with multiple points where you are gathering data, talking with NPC's, and advancing the plot. at the end you get a huge lump of exp. this takes into account all the running around you did that you got no experience for.

In crafting, it would be similar, but broken down a bit more. you dont get credit for having to store, organize, and manage the literally hundreds of different materials to be able to craft with a few craft skills. and move them to the right toons. and on top of that, gathering like you said. which, by the way, if you sneak past mobs to get to nodes you get no experience, unlike a quest where you can sneak through most of it and still walk away with 80% of the experience you would have had by killing stuff along the way...but i digress...

so a minor amount of experience for each craft, and for each research should be similar to a quest worth of experience. much like quests...its not difficult to research. it's not difficult to finish a quest either...its the mobs along the way that are a pain. but in crafting you have to deal with those as well...AND you spend all that time organizing. I just read a thread where a player was commenting on the fact that he feels like he spends more time organizing gear then he does playing the game. This is largely due in part to the limited bank space + the crafting system. I don't have gripes about the system design, I just would like to get a small return on that time spent.

On another note, this would also alleviate an issue that many have with the tight leveling curve. unless you are exploring almost literally everything, and doing every quest....and adding some grinding in as well...you will often be outleveled by the quests available. I see this often enough in guild and zone chat that I know many people run into the issue. rather then forcing them into a strict role of adventuring and grinding mobs, they could spend some time crafting and alleviate this gap.

It would provide another means by which players could CHOOSE to level their characters. I find it somewhat surprising that in a game like this that comes across as being so "flexible" and "open" that there is such a strict requirement to keep your level up with the content. a few other experience options would give people the choices that this game totes itself for having. and this could easily be on of those.

temjiu

AbraCadabra wrote: »

Sure, that would be great getting experience for crafting. However it wasn't designed that way for THIS game.

I'm glad you agree. however, on your final note...It's the nature of games (especially MMO's) to have the capacity to CHANGE. so THIS game currently gives no experience for crafting. but its entirely possible to do, and it isn't a core game mechanic that needs changing, so it's doable.

And it adds another experience option for those who aren't really into grinding mob after mob running the currently bugged group instances. it would be a cushion, nothing more. and it would put a few extra skill points in the pockets of crafters who are spending their time crafting for their guild instead of leveling their characters.

temjiu

Fahrice wrote: »

100% disagree. You shouldn't get crafting levels from killing, and you shouldn't get adventuring levels from crafting. How do you get better at killing zombies by making swords? Or how do you get better at making armor by murdering mammoths?

Makes no sense at all.....

The two should be a trade off. Invest time in what you want to be good at. Simple as that.

I agree. its totally whacked how i can go out, kill zombies till im red in the face, and then put a skill point in...making wine? or putting together a tonic for my acne? yet....this is EXACTLY what the game does now. So really we have 2 options...eliminate the skill points from crafting, or give crafting experience. one of the two I would be fine with.

i prefer the experience. its less work, it wont break the game, and adds a cushion for those who don't want to grind or explore every crack in the stone on the island just to keep their level up with the quests.

Molak

Completely disagree with OP. They did this in LOTRO and you could get to lvl 40 - 50 and never leave bree. I like they way it is in THIS game. NO xp for crafting in ESO is fine as it is.

Trainerdc

They did this in guild wars 2 and I really hated it. A rich player could just leve up alt with crafting. It sounds stupid that you gain health for crafting potions or that you learn new skills with your 2H because you made a cloth armor.

Brennan

I don't understand why so many people want to make ESO like other games. Why can't ESO just be different?

vegeta0585b14_ESO

good god no it should not give more xp. I already outlevel the content like crazy. I think 6 of my 44 levels are from PICKING FREAKING CHESTS. I am not certain but I think when I pick my nose properly I even get xp. I want LESS xp, I wish lockpicking had its own line and xp, then I'd still be in level range of the quests and mobs im fighting.

Brennan

vegeta0585b14_ESO wrote: »

good god no it should not give more xp. I already outlevel the content like crazy. I think 6 of my 44 levels are from PICKING FREAKING CHESTS. I am not certain but I think when I pick my nose properly I even get xp. I want LESS xp, I wish lockpicking had its own line and xp, then I'd still be in level range of the quests and mobs im fighting.

Maybe a lockpicking skill comes with the implementation of the Thieves Guild. I too would like to see it as a skill line and not just for chests but maybe for doors in dungeons. Or traps that show up when you're crouched and can then be disarmed by a Lockpicking skill.

JessieColt

Crafting is separate from adventuring, and it should be. Crafting adds to crafting experience only. If it added to main XP,

vegeta0585b14_ESO wrote: »

good god no it should not give more xp. I already outlevel the content like crazy. I think 6 of my 44 levels are from PICKING FREAKING CHESTS. I am not certain but I think when I pick my nose properly I even get xp. I want LESS xp, I wish lockpicking had its own line and xp, then I'd still be in level range of the quests and mobs im fighting.

I wish lockpicking also had its own skill lines. I do not need it to give me main XP, but I would love for it to give me Lockpicking XP that adds a minimal amount of time to the timers so that it is easier for me over other people if I dedicate time to picking locks.

dennissomb16_ESO

The game does give experience for crafting. Your crafting xp bar goes up, allowing you to put more points into crafting skills, allowing you to be better at crafting overall. I like this personally and makes this game a little unique from all the other MMO clones
I hope the game never gives xp that would level your character like GW2 etc. partly because I like the system as is, but mostly, the crafting BOT population would explode making the entire gold spamming/hacker/exploiters even more of a hassle

Cloakofwinter

Regardless of the logic, adding another avenue of experience just means that everyone maxes out on levels that much faster. It seems we have become so dependent upon reaching level 50 as fast as possible that we forget that much of the adventuring is about the adventure and process of getting to max level rather than simply hitting max level.

seanolan

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

The game does give experience for crafting. Your crafting xp bar goes up, allowing you to put more points into crafting skills, allowing you to be better at crafting overall. I like this personally and makes this game a little unique from all the other MMO clones

Great. Tell you what. You do that, and at Crafting Level 50, with no skill points available to you, my crafting level 10 (from deconstructing cheap stuff I found adventuring) character with so many skill points coming out my ears from quests and skyshards will STILL be making far better equipment than you. Level of skill ONLY affects how many skill points can be put into the skill. A level 1 and a level 50 blacksmith make exactly the same items. So what the hell is the point of levelling crafting at all? It does not make you better at crafting - putting skill points in makes you better, and you only get skill points by adventuring.

Brennan

seanolan wrote: »

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

The game does give experience for crafting. Your crafting xp bar goes up, allowing you to put more points into crafting skills, allowing you to be better at crafting overall. I like this personally and makes this game a little unique from all the other MMO clones

Great. Tell you what. You do that, and at Crafting Level 50, with no skill points available to you, my crafting level 10 (from deconstructing cheap stuff I found adventuring) character with so many skill points coming out my ears from quests and skyshards will STILL be making far better equipment than you. Level of skill ONLY affects how many skill points can be put into the skill. A level 1 and a level 50 blacksmith make exactly the same items. So what the hell is the point of levelling crafting at all? It does not make you better at crafting - putting skill points in makes you better, and you only get skill points by adventuring.

I'm confused. Hard to tell from your post but are you suggesting that the current set up, where SP can only be gained from adventuring and not from crafting, is good?

OR

Are you suggesting that you want to be able to sit in your starter area and gain SP from standing at a Woodworking table all day?

dennissomb16_ESO

seanolan wrote: »

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

The game does give experience for crafting. Your crafting xp bar goes up, allowing you to put more points into crafting skills, allowing you to be better at crafting overall. I like this personally and makes this game a little unique from all the other MMO clones

Great. Tell you what. You do that, and at Crafting Level 50, with no skill points available to you, my crafting level 10 (from deconstructing cheap stuff I found adventuring) character with so many skill points coming out my ears from quests and skyshards will STILL be making far better equipment than you. Level of skill ONLY affects how many skill points can be put into the skill. A level 1 and a level 50 blacksmith make exactly the same items. So what the hell is the point of levelling crafting at all? It does not make you better at crafting - putting skill points in makes you better, and you only get skill points by adventuring.

I probably missed something here as I don't quite understand your point. I like the design that you build crafting influence via crafting (breaking down items etc.) but still need to play the game to progress (like you said, skill points etc)
What I don't want that you get in so many other games are the crafting alts who only craft. For me I like the design, and hope it stays the same and no leveling xp is given for crafting. personal opinion nothing more

seanolan

My point is that the crafting experience you touted gives no benefit without pairing it with adventuring, whereas adventuring without crafting can lead to skill in crafting. The "experience" you get crafting is worthless, pointless. There either needs to be a separate skillpoint system for crafting, or yes, you need to be able, like in every other TES game that had crafting skills, to be able to get levels from crafting.

Abeille

Crafting should at least give skill points, if not experience. I find it bothersome that you need to spend skill points on it while it rewards none. Well, I don't think crafting should use skill points at all, but it is not like it will be changed.

Brennan

seanolan wrote: »

My point is that the crafting experience you touted gives no benefit without pairing it with adventuring, whereas adventuring without crafting can lead to skill in crafting. The "experience" you get crafting is worthless, pointless. There either needs to be a separate skillpoint system for crafting, or yes, you need to be able, like in every other TES game that had crafting skills, to be able to get levels from crafting.

I don't think that's a good idea. That allows people to focus all SP on crafting and never have to pull a bowstring or swing a sword. I was trying this with my crafting character. All of my SP were in craft skills. It worked well for a while. It also made me much better at blocking and interrupting. Eventually though, the difficulty of the PVE content was more than I could manage without skilling some combat skills.

This is, in fact, a TES game. But it is also an MMO. There has to be a balance or players will find a way to exploit the system and disadvantage others. My advice to you is to craft what you can but still go out and melt some faces to get your SP.

dennissomb16_ESO

seanolan wrote: »

My point is that the crafting experience you touted gives no benefit without pairing it with adventuring, whereas adventuring without crafting can lead to skill in crafting. The "experience" you get crafting is worthless, pointless. There either needs to be a separate skillpoint system for crafting, or yes, you need to be able, like in every other TES game that had crafting skills, to be able to get levels from crafting.

I understand a bit better thanks, but I disagree on a couple of points. I don't see how you can "adventure without crafting can lead to skill in crafting" I am doing blacksmithing. If I didn't constantly work at the blacksmithing skill through crating, it would not progress my blacksmithing skill enough to be able to use increasingly higher ores (for higher level weapons/armor), I would not be able to research faster and more often etc. Simply put I have to do something in actual blacksmithing to constantly get better. I like that as you pointed out " crafting experience you touted gives no benefit without pairing it with adventuring,". This what I like in this design

As far as xp for crafting, as the old saying goes, "lets agree to disagree"

temjiu

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

I understand a bit better thanks, but I disagree on a couple of points. I don't see how you can "adventure without crafting can lead to skill in crafting" I am doing blacksmithing. If I didn't constantly work at the blacksmithing skill through crating, it would not progress my blacksmithing skill enough to be able to use increasingly higher ores (for higher level weapons/armor), I would not be able to research faster and more often etc. Simply put I have to do something in actual blacksmithing to constantly get better. I like that as you pointed out " crafting experience you touted gives no benefit without pairing it with adventuring,". This what I like in this design

As far as xp for crafting, as the old saying goes, "lets agree to disagree"

as to your first point, what he means by "adventure without crafting can lead to skill in crafting" is this:

when you adventure, you gain skill points. skill points can...nay must be put into crafting for crafting to get anywhere. now...without leveling your crafting a bit, you won't do much good with the points. BUT...by just deconstructing items you find by leveling, you will gain in crafting. my templar is only lvl 24, and she already has lvl 11 woodworking by just breaking things down. and thats high enough to craft up to lvl 30+ gear, far higher then she needs at the moment.

and to add to that, the game is designed to have enough spare skill points for you to add them to crafting. so the skill points will be there for crafting if you just..do everything else other then crafting. Now...if you did nothing but craft items, you would definitely have a high level "craft", but without those skill points you can't advance beyond level 14 gear (level 16 gear requires the next tier to be opened, which is a skill point).

So...if you adventure, and do a bit of crafting on the side, you level crafting. If you just level crafting...you can't really do anything with it.

My primary purpose is to bring to the table the inherent disparity between the two processes. Many people disagree with adding experience...but at the same time, they fail to address the primary issue...that crafting should be independent of the adventuring careers.

I see no reason why this game, which touts itself as being a more open approach to gaming (explore...do what you want) is going to force people to possibly not do what they want. In a more sandbox style game, i see no reason why crafting (being a professional blacksmith) shouldn't be an avenue you can choose to do in this game.

And were not talking about people sitting in town leveling to 50 with nothing but crafting. were talking about your entire crafting career resulting in at most 10 levels or so. you know...those first 10 levels that you probably could rip out in an afternoon adventuring now.

Well, it takes me better part of a weekend to get to 15. but maxing 2 crafts takes far longer then that...more like 2-3 months. so I don't' see why someone spending a month or two crafting...and getting to a mighty level of 10 (ooooohhhh) is game breaking.

Now...I'd prefer an independent system where the skill points were separate for crafting...but I don't see that as being realistic from a development perspective. the exp is simply a decent in-between.

Now..in my perfect world, crafting would have it's own leveling curve. experience would lend crafting points, to be spent on various passives. the ones in game already are a great start. they could add more. more tiers to the ones already in place, more different passives, and so on. they could provide unlocks at higher tiers for learning set bonuses from those rare forges in difficult areas, etc.

That would be the best approach. then a master blacksmith is exactly and ONLY that. he picks up a sword and he's a lvl 1 newbie trying to avoid getting gutted on his own weapon. put a hammer into his hands, and he is crafting the gear that every hardcore raider wants.

Mansome

No, absolutely not. That's one of the main things I hated about Aion, by the time you got your crafting up you have already out leveled the gear for that tier.

SDZald

Personally I think there should be two separate skill trees, one for 'adventuring' and one for Crafting. I would not allow skill points earned in one to be spent in the other.

That way you could Role Play a "stay safe behind the walls' crafter who does nothing but craft and yet can still advanced in all the crafter skills.

amanfr01

I agree with anyone who said that crafting should have its own skill point line, or anything of the sort. It's not that I mind that much if I spend a skill point from general leveling on the crafting system, but it would be nice if they differentiated the 'violent' skill points from the 'crafting' skill points.

Abeille

SDZald wrote: »

Personally I think there should be two separate skill trees, one for 'adventuring' and one for Crafting. I would not allow skill points earned in one to be spent in the other.

That way you could Role Play a "stay safe behind the walls' crafter who does nothing but craft and yet can still advanced in all the crafter skills.

I like this idea. I would like to see something like this in MMO. It is how I wanted my Orsimer to be and it is how I will roleplay her, even though she is perfectly capable of fighting.