What Exactly is Wrong with Werewolves?

Sylinias

Spriggen wrote: »

Choose one and build your werewolf around it. Or mix and match. Have Akavari and Savior set to bring down the you ultimate to 53% of 1000.

Okay but where do these set drop at?

Sylinias

Keep in mind that WW wasn't tested in open beta at any point that I am aware of - this spec was delivered 'as is' to the general public on day 1 of Early Access and hasn't gotten very much attention at all so we are, truly, beta testing WW for the devs.

Dekkameron

They smell bad and have bad breath!

Sakiri

Sylinias wrote: »

Spriggen wrote: »

Choose one and build your werewolf around it. Or mix and match. Have Akavari and Savior set to bring down the you ultimate to 53% of 1000.

Okay but where do these set drop at?

First time akaviri is lvl 20ish and savior is 45-50. Second is VR1 for akaviri and VR9 or 10 for savior.

Sylinias

I'm really looking for location/boss(es) for the Savior set.

Travail

Sylinias wrote: »

Keep in mind that WW wasn't tested in open beta at any point that I am aware of - this spec was delivered 'as is' to the general public on day 1 of Early Access and hasn't gotten very much attention at all so we are, truly, beta testing WW for the devs.

They definitely should have given beta testers the skill line to play around with. They didn't have to reveal how the quest was acquired, but they definitely needed to have both diseases tested pre-launch. Just look at all the bugs and imbalances with the Vampire skill line. Players bringing their ultimate cost down to 4 ultimate? Yeah, something tells me that would never have seen launch if Vamps had had a year of closed beta to be properly tested by the entire beta community.

-Travail.

dodgehopper_ESO

My only issue with the Werewolf and Vampire skill lines is that I believe there should be a competing skill line available if people are interested like the 'Vigil of Stendarr". Having a werewolf myself though I do agree there are problems with it. I do not understand the poison weakness at all. My Werewolf mauled so many Falmer in Skyrim, that I'm pretty sure they told campfire tales about the Howling Terror that destroyed whole cities of their kind. With that said, I really don't see how Werewolves from a lore perspective have a poison weakness, even moreso in human form where there is no real benefit to it.

I also did the Werewolf quest early (Lvl 16) and beat the Frost Troll with ease (which apparently people think was hard, I just did lots of hit and run). Ideally, I'd rather see the Vampire and Werewolf abilities open up like a proper Guild skill, that went along with accomplishments in the story. That being said I'm not entirely sure it would be worth it for them to go that deep into the storyline for those two races right now, when honestly I find DB and Thieves Guild far more interesting, and would rather see their efforts go there. Once they finished DB and TG then I suppose I'd be cool with them adding a proper storyline that gates progression as a wolf or vampire.

On the Poison thing again: I'd really like to see them get rid of the weakness to poison altogether, and simply make Silver weapons or the Silver based FG attacks be particularly mean to the Werebeasts. Then again, I also feel that Templar abilities should innately scare the hell out of Vampires: Templars are firing raw sunfire at their enemies, and I think Templar fire should be especially brutal to them. That is probably just me. All that being said I enjoy my Werewolf for the brief burst that I can play him... the biggest problem that I find is that the synergy attack is not working for me, so I can't bite anything to recover health. I do not have the bite-human passive yet, as I've been putting points elsewhere, but it was my understanding that we should be able to bite animals as Wolves. Perhaps I'm mistaken in this regard but I do not think so, as a long time friend that I have gamed with for the last 10 years is the one who bit me and told me she had done so.

As I muse on the poster above me, I think in the end if you want the feeling of a Werewolf Companion, you have to create your own PACK. Perhaps you need to make a guild of Werewolves to really make proper use of them for fun, and throw events together and whatnot. Just a thought. My apologies for a rambling post, but I've just gotten home from being outside in 100+ degree weather on a long mountain hike.

Gisgo

Imho theres only one problem with WWs: their ultimate costing 1000 points.
Nobody having the veteran armor set that reduces the ultimate cost of the transformation doesnt help either.

ScardyFox

Gisgo wrote: »

Imho theres only one problem with WWs: their ultimate costing 1000 points.

Thanks God most people have more insight then you...

MasterLanz

ScardyFox wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

Imho theres only one problem with WWs: their ultimate costing 1000 points.

Thanks God most people have more insight then you...

I could break down every single problem with werewolf and every possible solution, and offer any kind of insight on the topic as someone who's been using werewolf since the first few days the servers came up, for as much as insight into the topic is worth.

The cost of the ult always has been the biggest factor, bugs aside. If they fixed all the bugs pertaining to werewolf and ultimates (like ult resets) and then reduced WW to cost comparable to other ultimates (200ish) it would make werewolf 'work'. You wouldn't have the whole transform-into-a-monster-all-the-time playstyle, but that doesn't seem to be the intention anyways. Instead you'd have this Bloody Roar style of jumping in and out of wolf form and being able to use it to super-burst whenever you want a melee burst. That would be balanced and reasonable and reducing the cost (a ton) would indeed fix werewolf. It might not result in the werewolf that some people are asking for, but some people are asking for unrealistic things anyways.

So while the cost is not the only problem, it certainly is the biggest. All the well-argued complaints ultimately speak from the perspective of it not being worth 1,000 ult. While that could be solved by doing all this stuff to make werewolf more complex and powerful and longer-lasting, making it way cheaper is a far more likely solution.

ScardyFox

MasterLanz wrote: »

ScardyFox wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

Imho theres only one problem with WWs: their ultimate costing 1000 points.

Thanks God most people have more insight then you...

I could break down every single problem with werewolf and every possible solution, and offer any kind of insight on the topic as someone who's been using werewolf since the first few days the servers came up, for as much as insight into the topic is worth.

The cost of the ult always has been the biggest factor, bugs aside. If they fixed all the bugs pertaining to werewolf and ultimates (like ult resets) and then reduced WW to cost comparable to other ultimates (200ish) it would make werewolf 'work'. You wouldn't have the whole transform-into-a-monster-all-the-time playstyle, but that doesn't seem to be the intention anyways. Instead you'd have this Bloody Roar style of jumping in and out of wolf form and being able to use it to super-burst whenever you want a melee burst. That would be balanced and reasonable and reducing the cost (a ton) would indeed fix werewolf. It might not result in the werewolf that some people are asking for, but some people are asking for unrealistic things anyways.

So while the cost is not the only problem, it certainly is the biggest. All the well-argued complaints ultimately speak from the perspective of it not being worth 1,000 ult. While that could be solved by doing all this stuff to make werewolf more complex and powerful and longer-lasting, making it way cheaper is a far more likely solution.

Again, its not the biggest problem - it isn't even close to the biggest problem. The biggest problem BY FAR is that in a game that has waterfall ways of CCing you, werewolf is completely and utterly defenseless. You could make the cost 5 and still get CCed into oblivion with a person with half a brain.

Yes, there are dozens of issues but the cost is far lower on the totem pole then people (mostly) realize. I have zero problem gaining ultimate quickly - and even if they lowered it, made me stronger, more durable, if I get one CC on me the result will be the same.

That said, I am one of those people who want a toggle - but that is another subject.

Sylinias

ScardyFox wrote: »

Again, its not the biggest problem - it isn't even close to the biggest problem. The biggest problem BY FAR is that in a game that has waterfall ways of CCing you, werewolf is completely and utterly defenseless. You could make the cost 5 and still get CCed into oblivion with a person with half a brain.

You should probably qualify this by saying this is from a PvP POV - something some of us avoid like ball cancer.

dodgehopper_ESO

The lack of a breakfree is pretty horrendous.

ScardyFox

Sylinias wrote: »

ScardyFox wrote: »

Again, its not the biggest problem - it isn't even close to the biggest problem. The biggest problem BY FAR is that in a game that has waterfall ways of CCing you, werewolf is completely and utterly defenseless. You could make the cost 5 and still get CCed into oblivion with a person with half a brain.

You should probably qualify this by saying this is from a PvP POV - something some of us avoid like ball cancer.

Been hit plenty of times by CC in PvE.

MasterLanz

ScardyFox wrote: »

Sylinias wrote: »

ScardyFox wrote: »

Again, its not the biggest problem - it isn't even close to the biggest problem. The biggest problem BY FAR is that in a game that has waterfall ways of CCing you, werewolf is completely and utterly defenseless. You could make the cost 5 and still get CCed into oblivion with a person with half a brain.

You should probably qualify this by saying this is from a PvP POV - something some of us avoid like ball cancer.

Been hit plenty of times by CC in PvE.

Every PVE CC can be blocked. You don't need a CC break to get around it, you can prevent it from afflicting the character in the first place. I've done every dungeon in the game as a werewolf, I've never had any problems with CC.

ScardyFox wrote: »

MasterLanz wrote: »

ScardyFox wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

Imho theres only one problem with WWs: their ultimate costing 1000 points.

Thanks God most people have more insight then you...

I could break down every single problem with werewolf and every possible solution, and offer any kind of insight on the topic as someone who's been using werewolf since the first few days the servers came up, for as much as insight into the topic is worth.

The cost of the ult always has been the biggest factor, bugs aside. If they fixed all the bugs pertaining to werewolf and ultimates (like ult resets) and then reduced WW to cost comparable to other ultimates (200ish) it would make werewolf 'work'. You wouldn't have the whole transform-into-a-monster-all-the-time playstyle, but that doesn't seem to be the intention anyways. Instead you'd have this Bloody Roar style of jumping in and out of wolf form and being able to use it to super-burst whenever you want a melee burst. That would be balanced and reasonable and reducing the cost (a ton) would indeed fix werewolf. It might not result in the werewolf that some people are asking for, but some people are asking for unrealistic things anyways.

So while the cost is not the only problem, it certainly is the biggest. All the well-argued complaints ultimately speak from the perspective of it not being worth 1,000 ult. While that could be solved by doing all this stuff to make werewolf more complex and powerful and longer-lasting, making it way cheaper is a far more likely solution.

Again, its not the biggest problem - it isn't even close to the biggest problem. The biggest problem BY FAR is that in a game that has waterfall ways of CCing you, werewolf is completely and utterly defenseless. You could make the cost 5 and still get CCed into oblivion with a person with half a brain.

Yes, there are dozens of issues but the cost is far lower on the totem pole then people (mostly) realize. I have zero problem gaining ultimate quickly - and even if they lowered it, made me stronger, more durable, if I get one CC on me the result will be the same.

That said, I am one of those people who want a toggle - but that is another subject.

Yes, the lack of a CC break is purely a PVP concern, and even if that was remedied, WW still has intentionally-designed risks in PVP via fighter's guild skills and poison, so PVP is rough on werewolves regardless.

No, the problem is the cost. It's always been the cost. You can go back through the thread if you like and re-read everyone's concerns and all the other threads. The lack of a CC break or a roll is mentioned as a definite drawback but everything else is bad because it's in contrast to the cost.

Even the lack of a CC break or roll is ultimately in contrast to the cost. You can go 30 seconds without needing a CC break. That's just a matter of timing and familiarity with the enemies and the fights. If lack of a CC break would truly ruin you in a particular fight, you just don't pop WW in that particular fight - which would be fine if it costed like a normal ultimate, because most ultimates aren't ideal in every possible combat situation anyways, so neither should WW.

Froobert

Werewolves?

Major problem with them:

1) Archer can take them down VERY easily if they spam "Poison Arrow" since taking poison damage it like taking fire damage for Vampires.

2) "Silver Bullets/Weapons?" I don't know if this is a myth in ESO, but I've heard that Silver Bullets/"Bolts" and Silver Weapons do TONS more damage against werewolves. (Haven't heard anything about Vampire.)

3) Almost all passive abilities are used when you have Werewolf activated, not passively just walking around. We all need passive abilities, but werewolves gain nothing from it UNLESS they are in werewolf form (This is a plus since Poison doesn't do anything unless your in Werewolf form)

^^ Yay

Brittany_Joy

MasterLanz wrote: »

ScardyFox wrote: »

Sylinias wrote: »

ScardyFox wrote: »

Again, its not the biggest problem - it isn't even close to the biggest problem. The biggest problem BY FAR is that in a game that has waterfall ways of CCing you, werewolf is completely and utterly defenseless. You could make the cost 5 and still get CCed into oblivion with a person with half a brain.

You should probably qualify this by saying this is from a PvP POV - something some of us avoid like ball cancer.

Been hit plenty of times by CC in PvE.

Every PVE CC can be blocked. You don't need a CC break to get around it, you can prevent it from afflicting the character in the first place. I've done every dungeon in the game as a werewolf, I've never had any problems with CC.

ScardyFox wrote: »

MasterLanz wrote: »

ScardyFox wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

Imho theres only one problem with WWs: their ultimate costing 1000 points.

Thanks God most people have more insight then you...

I could break down every single problem with werewolf and every possible solution, and offer any kind of insight on the topic as someone who's been using werewolf since the first few days the servers came up, for as much as insight into the topic is worth.

The cost of the ult always has been the biggest factor, bugs aside. If they fixed all the bugs pertaining to werewolf and ultimates (like ult resets) and then reduced WW to cost comparable to other ultimates (200ish) it would make werewolf 'work'. You wouldn't have the whole transform-into-a-monster-all-the-time playstyle, but that doesn't seem to be the intention anyways. Instead you'd have this Bloody Roar style of jumping in and out of wolf form and being able to use it to super-burst whenever you want a melee burst. That would be balanced and reasonable and reducing the cost (a ton) would indeed fix werewolf. It might not result in the werewolf that some people are asking for, but some people are asking for unrealistic things anyways.

So while the cost is not the only problem, it certainly is the biggest. All the well-argued complaints ultimately speak from the perspective of it not being worth 1,000 ult. While that could be solved by doing all this stuff to make werewolf more complex and powerful and longer-lasting, making it way cheaper is a far more likely solution.

Again, its not the biggest problem - it isn't even close to the biggest problem. The biggest problem BY FAR is that in a game that has waterfall ways of CCing you, werewolf is completely and utterly defenseless. You could make the cost 5 and still get CCed into oblivion with a person with half a brain.

Yes, there are dozens of issues but the cost is far lower on the totem pole then people (mostly) realize. I have zero problem gaining ultimate quickly - and even if they lowered it, made me stronger, more durable, if I get one CC on me the result will be the same.

That said, I am one of those people who want a toggle - but that is another subject.

Yes, the lack of a CC break is purely a PVP concern, and even if that was remedied, WW still has intentionally-designed risks in PVP via fighter's guild skills and poison, so PVP is rough on werewolves regardless.

No, the problem is the cost. It's always been the cost. You can go back through the thread if you like and re-read everyone's concerns and all the other threads. The lack of a CC break or a roll is mentioned as a definite drawback but everything else is bad because it's in contrast to the cost.

Even the lack of a CC break or roll is ultimately in contrast to the cost. You can go 30 seconds without needing a CC break. That's just a matter of timing and familiarity with the enemies and the fights. If lack of a CC break would truly ruin you in a particular fight, you just don't pop WW in that particular fight - which would be fine if it costed like a normal ultimate, because most ultimates aren't ideal in every possible combat situation anyways, so neither should WW.

Well to be fair it isn't wise to let someone who is inexperienced about werewolves be the voice for them. If you lack experience in PvE or PvP then I suggest you keep your suggestions to yourself because they fail to fix what is actually wrong with werewolves. But if you want to talk about fixing werewolves then stop disagreeing with people just because it isn't your own opinion.

The problem with werewolves is not just the high cost it is the impractical design as well. Spending 14 skill points into the werewolf transformation only serves to downgrade the character because you lose 14 skill points for a 40 second ultimate that rarely gets used. PvP is not scripted like PvE, so werewolves perform very poorly in PvP because of their inability to CC break or dodge out of unforeseen CC. The devour animation which replenishes your HP and werewolf timer can easily be interrupted by a single attack and lasts more than 4 seconds, sometimes it fails to replenish anything. The werewolves are going to need a complete revamp because the problems are in the design as well.

One of the major problems of being a werewolf is the fact the werewolf transformation is an ultimate when it should have been an ability which costs magicka. The damage in werewolf form can be achieved by normal players so it is not OP to be a permawolf. All followers of Hircine should show mastery over the werewolf transformation so it would make sense that we are able to shapeshift at will. The time in werewolf form should not have restrictions because it ruins the whole "Be who you want to be" motto. I want to be a savage werewolf who goes hunting in Cyrodiil but the werewolf design prevents me from doing so.

If ZoS is going to promote restrictive gameplay over fun gameplay then I won't support them. Promoting restrictive gameplay is against the ESO motto.

liquid_wolf

My character is not a werewolf.

He sometimes transforms into a werewolf, but the majority of a time he is simply a human who doesn't like poison and silver.

The werewolf mechanics, as they are now, simply don't make you feel like any of it was worthwhile.

Interesting? For a bit... but worthwhile? Nope.

Decrease the ultimate cost? Sure. Could help.
Make the transform a toggle? Sure. Could help.
Give the werewolves more time/abilities? Sure. Could help.

Plenty of good ideas out there... all of them could help make the werewolf better.

I don't particularly care which direction they go... Just do something with it. There are all sorts of problems and issues with any "fix" they could implement... but honestly I'd gladly take them over what we currently have.

We could argue forever about the merits of one fix over another. We will probably whip and yell at Zenimax for any changes they do make.

But honestly... No one really likes the way it is currently setup. So... just try something.

MasterLanz

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

MasterLanz wrote: »

ScardyFox wrote: »

Sylinias wrote: »

ScardyFox wrote: »

Again, its not the biggest problem - it isn't even close to the biggest problem. The biggest problem BY FAR is that in a game that has waterfall ways of CCing you, werewolf is completely and utterly defenseless. You could make the cost 5 and still get CCed into oblivion with a person with half a brain.

You should probably qualify this by saying this is from a PvP POV - something some of us avoid like ball cancer.

Been hit plenty of times by CC in PvE.

Every PVE CC can be blocked. You don't need a CC break to get around it, you can prevent it from afflicting the character in the first place. I've done every dungeon in the game as a werewolf, I've never had any problems with CC.

ScardyFox wrote: »

MasterLanz wrote: »

ScardyFox wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

Imho theres only one problem with WWs: their ultimate costing 1000 points.

Thanks God most people have more insight then you...

I could break down every single problem with werewolf and every possible solution, and offer any kind of insight on the topic as someone who's been using werewolf since the first few days the servers came up, for as much as insight into the topic is worth.

The cost of the ult always has been the biggest factor, bugs aside. If they fixed all the bugs pertaining to werewolf and ultimates (like ult resets) and then reduced WW to cost comparable to other ultimates (200ish) it would make werewolf 'work'. You wouldn't have the whole transform-into-a-monster-all-the-time playstyle, but that doesn't seem to be the intention anyways. Instead you'd have this Bloody Roar style of jumping in and out of wolf form and being able to use it to super-burst whenever you want a melee burst. That would be balanced and reasonable and reducing the cost (a ton) would indeed fix werewolf. It might not result in the werewolf that some people are asking for, but some people are asking for unrealistic things anyways.

So while the cost is not the only problem, it certainly is the biggest. All the well-argued complaints ultimately speak from the perspective of it not being worth 1,000 ult. While that could be solved by doing all this stuff to make werewolf more complex and powerful and longer-lasting, making it way cheaper is a far more likely solution.

Again, its not the biggest problem - it isn't even close to the biggest problem. The biggest problem BY FAR is that in a game that has waterfall ways of CCing you, werewolf is completely and utterly defenseless. You could make the cost 5 and still get CCed into oblivion with a person with half a brain.

Yes, there are dozens of issues but the cost is far lower on the totem pole then people (mostly) realize. I have zero problem gaining ultimate quickly - and even if they lowered it, made me stronger, more durable, if I get one CC on me the result will be the same.

That said, I am one of those people who want a toggle - but that is another subject.

Yes, the lack of a CC break is purely a PVP concern, and even if that was remedied, WW still has intentionally-designed risks in PVP via fighter's guild skills and poison, so PVP is rough on werewolves regardless.

No, the problem is the cost. It's always been the cost. You can go back through the thread if you like and re-read everyone's concerns and all the other threads. The lack of a CC break or a roll is mentioned as a definite drawback but everything else is bad because it's in contrast to the cost.

Even the lack of a CC break or roll is ultimately in contrast to the cost. You can go 30 seconds without needing a CC break. That's just a matter of timing and familiarity with the enemies and the fights. If lack of a CC break would truly ruin you in a particular fight, you just don't pop WW in that particular fight - which would be fine if it costed like a normal ultimate, because most ultimates aren't ideal in every possible combat situation anyways, so neither should WW.

Well to be fair it isn't wise to let someone who is inexperienced about werewolves be the voice for them. If you lack experience in PvE or PvP then I suggest you keep your suggestions to yourself because they fail to fix what is actually wrong with werewolves. But if you want to talk about fixing werewolves then stop disagreeing with people just because it isn't your own opinion.

And then you proceed to disagree based on opinion?

The fact of the matter is that it's an ultimate. Barring the unlikely scenario of completely redesigning werewolf from the ground up (you can hope for that if you want, but it's not very realistic at this stage. Maybe someday.), werewolf will remain an ultimate. As an ultimate, as with all other ultimates, how 'powerful' or 'useful' it is, is a matter of cost versus effect. In an ideally-balanced situation (where WW is an ultimate), you'd be able to use beast form in the situations you want to use it, instead of only situations where you have to use it.

A lot of people are basing their opinions on superficial factors and forgetting the core underlying components. Rarely gets used? That's because of the prohibitive cost and the bugs preventing you from using it when you want to use it. No CC management? That's only a problem because the current shape werewolf is in forces you to use it when you can use it, not specifically when it's tactically viable to use. Skill point investments are likewise only as steep as their return on investment. If players are able to utilize werewolf consistently when they want to utilize it, then they can invest whatever they want. No one is obligated to invest 14 points in werewolf. It adds perks but it doesn't dictate how powerful werewolf form is. You can easily get plenty of mileage out of werewolf with an investment of 2-5 skill points if you're tight on points.

Honestly, you shouldn't be tight on points, though. Characters get enough skill points to max out the passives and actives for multiple roles/builds on a single character. Werewolf just takes up one of those investments. EDIT: Honestly, if anything, the skill point investment into werewolf is a trivial factor. It's everything else that you invest into werewolf that makes it a serious invement. Being a stamina/health character, gearing your weapons and armor around being in werewolf form and maximizing your ult gains. That is the expensive stuff because it dominates your entire character build to get the most out of it.

The crux of the problem is not being able to use werewolf in the ideal situations where the burst and actives of a werewolf are beneficial. Right now the only way to use werewolf is to pop it pretty much as soon as it's ready(because it might bug and reset), and then sustain it for as long as possible(because it took so long to build up in the first place), regardless of the actual combat circumstances where you might consider swapping to a sudden melee burst for a little bit.

Everything I just said ultimately boils down to cost and fixing the bugs. If the ultimate was cheaper, it could be built up more rapidly, used more frequently, and it reduces the player's feeling that they need to push it as far as possible as often as possible to make it 'worth it'.

Even in PVP reduced cost would give it benefits. In any large fight, a lone werewolf beasting out is dead. They'd have to buff werewolves way into overpowered-land in order to make it so powerful that it won't just get torn apart simply because it's such a large and obvious target. The second a player beasts out, everyone in render range is going to see and hear it, and if they have any tools tailored to dropping werewolves, then the werewolf just painted a massive bullseye on themselves by beasting out. That's not likely to ever change, no matter what rebalancing is done because Zenimax obviously designed it that way (they gave Fighter's Guild a passive purely for that very purpose).

So, assuming that won't change, the only situations where werewolf is viable in PVP is either A ) mass-werewolf spam where a bunch are beasting out at the same time (making it harder for everyone to just zero in on one target and silver bolt it to death), or B ) one-on-one fights. Both of these situations would be made more viable by a significant cut to the ult cost. In the case of multiple werewolves, a bug-free and cheap ult cost would make it far easier to coordinate a mass-shift that makes the most out of pack synergies and overwhelming force. In a one-on-one fight, a werewolf can capitalize on a CC'd player to beast out and juggle them with roar while tearing into them. In either case, feeding isn't even that important. You can just let the werewolf form wear off after you finish your burst. If anything, it's very unlikely you'd survive more than 30 seconds in werewolf form anyways, and with how spread out the battles are in PVP, even if you routed the enemy and had time to eat, you'd probably still time out before you hit the next fight. But if it were cheap that wouldn't matter. Build up your ult and do it again, like every other ult. Additionally, if it was cheap, you could justify manually breaking out of form if the situation turns sour.

ScardyFox

MasterLanz wrote: »

Every PVE CC can be blocked. You don't need a CC break to get around it, you can prevent it from afflicting the character in the first place. I've done every dungeon in the game as a werewolf, I've never had any problems with CC.

Fantastic, I've never been struck by lightning either - I guess no one else has in the world, so it should never be a concern.

For anyone

Ever.

Aside from your ridiculous comparison - it still is utterly irrelevant to the point, no matter which way you want to dissect it.

MasterLanz wrote: »

Yes, the lack of a CC break is purely a PVP concern, and even if that was remedied, WW still has intentionally-designed risks in PVP via fighter's guild skills and poison, so PVP is rough on werewolves regardless.

No, its not - and even if it (a "PVP concern") was whats your point? You're being a contrarion for the sake of being a contrarion. Saying poison damage and fighter guild specialties are detrimental to werewolves is about as big an epiphany as explaining to me I need air to breath and food to eat. Yes, there is suppose to be high risk high reward to both lines (Vampire and werewolves). Vampires got low Risk and God Reward - Wolves got Absurdly high risk and laughably rewarded. Hm, which of those two can handle CC rather well?

If the people behind vampires only had the insight of being "rough" on vampires.

Give me a break...

MasterLanz wrote: »

No, the problem is the cost. It's always been the cost. You can go back through the thread if you like and re-read everyone's concerns and all the other threads. The lack of a CC break or a roll is mentioned as a definite drawback but everything else is bad because it's in contrast to the cost.

All this nonsense to try and justify your "its the cost" perspective? Oh, I'll pass on going back and reading about something I have been posting (generally speaking) and been apart of since beta and closed servers.

MasterLanz wrote: »

Even the lack of a CC break or roll is ultimately in contrast to the cost. You can go 30 seconds without needing a CC break. That's just a matter of timing and familiarity with the enemies and the fights. If lack of a CC break would truly ruin you in a particular fight, you just don't pop WW in that particular fight - which would be fine if it costed like a normal ultimate, because most ultimates aren't ideal in every possible combat situation anyways, so neither should WW.

Thanks for giving me theoretical/presumption "what if" scenario, but the fact is, at the end of the day, in a game that is utterly saturated with CC effects it is a supreme handicap. Dropping the cost to 1 doesn't change the fact I am transforming into a weaker version of myself, have no way of dealing with aforementioned CC from a myriad of sources. Honestly, when you come up with these sweeping, grandiose, statements its hard to take you serious. I'm not saying that to be contentious - but genuinely mean it.

So far you have come up with reams and reams of "well this" and "well that" scenarios that are not applicable in the universal way you want them to be.

Do everyone a favor and keep it succinct - there is only so much bloviating a person can handle.

MasterLanz

I had typed up a response to the stuff before this, but you're either missing the point, or going in circles, so it's not going to go anywhere.

ScardyFox wrote:

Thanks for giving me theoretical/presumption "what if" scenario, but the fact is, at the end of the day, in a game that is utterly saturated with CC effects it is a supreme handicap. Dropping the cost to 1 doesn't change the fact I am transforming into a weaker version of myself, have no way of dealing with aforementioned CC from a myriad of sources. Honestly, when you come up with these sweeping, grandiose, statements its hard to take you serious. I'm not saying that to be contentious - but genuinely mean it.

So far you have come up with reams and reams of "well this" and "well that" scenarios that are not applicable in the universal way you want them to be.

Do everyone a favor and keep it succinct - there is only so much bloviating a person can handle.

'Weaker' is a very generic way to put it and dodges around the realities involved. If werewolf form is higher DPS than your normal form, then it's not 'weaker' unless the costs involved are so prohibitive that it's not worth the investment (thus the solution is either make it worth the cost, or reduce the cost.). If the damage output (currently all WW form really does)isn't higher than your normal form, then it's purely cosmetic and whether or not it has a dodge roll is largely moot.

A few people have stated that WW damage output isn't really any better than your damage output in your normal form (which is what you might mean by 'weaker'), but I would be curious to see their builds and see how much they invested into pushing their WW damage output.

I was able to get my WW damage up high enough that I was outclassing sorcs and DKs around me, which to me isn't 'weaker'. However, the defense and versatility of the character goes down, which could be what you mean by 'weaker'. That's ultimately just a matter of how it's used, however. Some powers are circumstantial and strategic by design. Not all tools are ideal in all circumstances (and when they are, they're often imbalanced, not the expectation).

All the design features of WW point to the intention of werewolf being something you pop for a burst of all-out-offense with the sole objective of killing things as quickly as possible, then revert back and continue fighting normally. It's not like WoW, and you're not a feral druid.

If you expect WW to be something you can have on all the time, that is useful in all situations and has answers and tricks for every kind of fight, you're probably hoping for something that will never exist. It's an ultimate, not a class. It's part of your character, not a replacement for it.

You can disagree with that until you're blue in the mouth and it won't matter. I'm just saying that a cost reduction is the most likely and realistic solution right now, and if you stop and think about it with an open mind for a few moments, a cost reduction would solve a lot of WW balance issues. People would be able to get into WW form far more often and far more easily, they'd have far more control of when to use WW optimally, and things like not having a dodge roll wouldn't be felt as heavily because you have more freedom to use the form.

Next to that, making it like Overload where you can turn it on freely and it consumes ult to attack would also be rather simple fix that would go a long ways.


Sure, it would be cool if WW was a toggle spell that had 5 actives, passives that work in human form, and whatever else people are dreaming up, but at this stage that's a pipe-dream.

Brittany_Joy

@MasterLanz, It is getting harder and harder to understand exactly what you are bickering about. The ultimate cost is already being reduced and is reduced to 725 in the PTS. Nick Konkle stated this "we believe werewolf is under-performing right now. Expect a few buffs to help offset this. In the short run, we're reducing the ultimate cost of the transformation itself." ZoS is reducing the ultimate cost and are looking to add better changes to improve the werewolf skill line. Which is why we are telling them what we want for the new changes.

I want a werewolf transformation similar to the feral druid. The feral druid is a popular play style that doesn't restrict your time in beast form but doesn't make you god mode. If you are fine with less werewolf transformations then don't be a werewolf. Do not suggest ideas that force werewolves to be anything but a werewolf. It doesn't make sense to promote restrictive gameplay. ESO's population is already declining because ZoS is failing to fix combat bugs and revamp poorly designed skill lines. They need to revamp the werewolf skill line to something that is fun, viable, and promotes actually being a werewolf.

Which is why I mention they should look to feral druids from WoW for inspiration and an idea of what to do with the skill line. Make the werewolf transformation an ability. The werewolf timer should be removed and make the time in werewolf form unlimited just like feral druids.

MasterLanz

The problem with a 'feral druid' is that they are always in their feral form, which is not what werewolf has ever really reflected in TES.

Besides, do you realize what you're asking? Druid isn't a tack-on feature in WoW. It's a whole class, Feral is designed around being used that way and a feral druid has virtually 0 utility outside of their beast forms. Werewolf is an add-on for your character. If it offered everything you could possibly need, what's the point in the other 250+ skill points? That just contradicts the character building style they've established in the game to have werewolf effectively 'replace' your normal character features because you can just have it active at all the time without any costs. What would be the incentive to swap back to normal form?

That aside, it'd also be like having a third skill bar. If you were a tank/healer build with those are your two bars, then you had Werewolf on top of that, you'd basically have 3 roles with a fraction of the investment that anyone else would have. At that point all melee DPS may as well be werewolves because it would be the most power for the least investment. That's pretty much FOTM stuff.

I think werewolf needs to have something to force you back into normal form on occasion. It's intrinsic to werewolves in TES, and without such restrictions it creates whole new problems, unless your real wish is to play Werewolves Online.

ScardyFox

MasterLanz wrote: »

Weaker' is a very generic way to put it and dodges around the realities involved. If werewolf form is higher DPS than your normal form, then it's not 'weaker' unless the costs involved are so prohibitive that it's not worth the investment (thus the solution is either make it worth the cost, or reduce the cost.). If the damage output (currently all WW form really does)isn't higher than your normal form, then it's purely cosmetic and whether or not it has a dodge roll is largely moot.

Weaker is a generic... what are you talking about? You're coming across as one of those kinds of people that talk just to hear themselves speak. Of course its a generic way to put it, because there is an understanding behind it that does not need minute detail. Its like me saying well, the grass is green - and you going well, what do you mean by green? Its well understood to these point - including as Britney has pointed out by ZoS themselves both publicly and by email if you constant their costumer report.

Oh, by the way, because you think a dodge or not is moot doesn't actually make it moot.

MasterLanz wrote: »

A few people have stated that WW damage output isn't really any better than your damage output in your normal form (which is what you might mean by 'weaker'), but I would be curious to see their builds and see how much they invested into pushing their WW damage output.

Nope - and if you saw "their" builds it wouldn't make a difference in the long run, as stated by ZoS. Its under-performing and they're looking into it.

MasterLanz wrote: »

I was able to get my WW damage up high enough that I was outclassing sorcs and DKs around me, which to me isn't 'weaker'. However, the defense and versatility of the character goes down, which could be what you mean by 'weaker'. That's ultimately just a matter of how it's used, however. Some powers are circumstantial and strategic by design. Not all tools are ideal in all circumstances (and when they are, they're often imbalanced, not the expectation).

Its starting to become a running joke with you trying to build a defense, to your undefendable position, by using the word weaker over and over. End of the day again, if we're going to result to sweeping comments over and over again, a hell of a lot more people recognize it as weak than don't. Most importantly ZoS. Thank you for explaining to me that some powers are circumstantial - maybe next time you could drop another epiphany on me like... most dogs have four legs...

Seriously, what are you doing at this point?

MasterLanz wrote: »

All the design features of WW point to the intention of werewolf being something you pop for a burst of all-out-offense with the sole objective of killing things as quickly as possible, then revert back and continue fighting normally. It's not like WoW, and you're not a feral druid.

Never played WoW so I have no frame of reference in what you are speaking of. However, if you're forcing me once again to comment on the obvious, yes I am aware of it. However, what you seemingly are not aware of is that its not working to its potential. Something - dare I say - most people see. And again, to take the broken record route, ZoS sees too.

MasterLanz wrote: »

If you expect WW to be something you can have on all the time, that is useful in all situations and has answers and tricks for every kind of fight, you're probably hoping for something that will never exist. It's an ultimate, not a class. It's part of your character, not a replacement for it.

Love that presumption - fills up at least 50% of your post so far. Makes it tiresome in some ways but at the least it lets me ignore most of what you're writing.

Nope - don't expect it to be on most of all of the time.

Nope - already commented on high risk high reward. Not exactly conducive with all of the time.

And can I borrow that crystal ball of yours? I'd love to be a millionaire - I can only assume you have one since you keep telling me the exacts of my wants and motives.

MasterLanz wrote: »

You can disagree with that until you're blue in the mouth and it won't matter. I'm just saying that a cost reduction is the most likely and realistic solution right now, and if you stop and think about it with an open mind for a few moments, a cost reduction would solve a lot of WW balance issues. People would be able to get into WW form far more often and far more easily, they'd have far more control of when to use WW optimally, and things like not having a dodge roll wouldn't be felt as heavily because you have more freedom to use the form.

Thank you for permission for disagreeing with you.

That said, I will continue to disagree with you until that blue reaches my face and then some. Reducing the cost is a token fix, albeit one that is happening regardless. However implying it is the most important aspect is simply untrue. Perhaps you need to take a moment to think about it? Nah, you won't - I'm sure I'll have to sit and read through another wall of dopey presumption and scenarios that are not the universal truths you'd like them to be. But, I can't argue the point a smaller time would mean more transformations - however seeing as (again) ZoS has stated several times its underpowered its a token fix.

MasterLanz wrote: »

Next to that, making it like Overload where you can turn it on freely and it consumes ult to attack would also be rather simple fix that would go a long ways.


Sure, it would be cool if WW was a toggle spell that had 5 actives, passives that work in human form, and whatever else people are dreaming up, but at this stage that's a pipe-dream.

Oh? Its a pipe-dream? By whos definition? Your vaunted opinion? Fact of the matter is these forums are for sharing ideas, opinions and everything that falls between the two. In PARTICULAR when ZoS has, for brevity sake, said their listening. SO yeah, I think myself and others will continue to keep posting what we'd like to see. Regardless of your blessings.

Iago

I leveled my WW to level 2 then level 3 my next level up was 3 and the last level up was 3......
I am pretty sure I should be level 5 now but nope just level 3

MasterLanz

@ScardyFox‌

You'd spend a lot less time foaming at the mouth and a lot more time being constructive if you actually read through a post before you started to reply to it. Once all the unnecessary sarcasm and glibness is cut from your posts, there isn't really anything there to reply to other that you disagree.

Okay. That's nice.

ScardyFox

MasterLanz wrote: »

@ScardyFox‌

You'd spend a lot less time foaming at the mouth and a lot more time being constructive if you actually read through a post before you started to reply to it. Once all the unnecessary sarcasm and glibness is cut from your posts, there isn't really anything there to reply to other that you disagree.

Okay. That's nice.

There goes that presumption again! In no way shape or form am I angry, but honestly that just not surprising coming from you. Oh the sarcasm is well earned on your part. After all, most of your post are nonsensical presumption and sweeping statements implying you are the progenitor of what should and shouldn't be thought and said.

Outstanding.

MasterLanz

ScardyFox wrote: »

MasterLanz wrote: »

@ScardyFox‌

You'd spend a lot less time foaming at the mouth and a lot more time being constructive if you actually read through a post before you started to reply to it. Once all the unnecessary sarcasm and glibness is cut from your posts, there isn't really anything there to reply to other that you disagree.

Okay. That's nice.

There goes that presumption again! In no way shape or form am I angry, but honestly that just not surprising coming from you. Oh the sarcasm is well earned on your part. After all, most of your post are nonsensical presumption and sweeping statements implying you are the progenitor of what should and shouldn't be thought and said.

Outstanding.

Whereas your own posts contain nothing of any kind of value at all.

ScardyFox

MasterLanz wrote: »

ScardyFox wrote: »

MasterLanz wrote: »

@ScardyFox‌

You'd spend a lot less time foaming at the mouth and a lot more time being constructive if you actually read through a post before you started to reply to it. Once all the unnecessary sarcasm and glibness is cut from your posts, there isn't really anything there to reply to other that you disagree.

Okay. That's nice.

There goes that presumption again! In no way shape or form am I angry, but honestly that just not surprising coming from you. Oh the sarcasm is well earned on your part. After all, most of your post are nonsensical presumption and sweeping statements implying you are the progenitor of what should and shouldn't be thought and said.

Outstanding.

Whereas your own posts contain nothing of any kind of value at all.

According to who? You? Oh yeah, thats right - you've implied several times over now that your opinion and your opinion alone is what matters. Opinions steeped in self righteous undertones, truly breath taking presumption and sweeping generations that are completely inapplicable.

Again, outstanding.

That said I think this back and forth has gone on long enough since its long pass even the remotest of anything pertaining to werewolves.

MasterLanz

ScardyFox wrote: »

That said I think this back and forth has gone on long enough since its long pass even the remotest of anything pertaining to werewolves.

Yeah, that's what happens when all you do is shoot down people's posts with sarcasm while offering no points, opinions, suggestions or information of any kind to debate with.

The only reason I had to presume anything in the first place is because so little of your posts have any actual content besides juvenile sarcasm and hypocritical accusations that there is no meaningful reply to make.

You ask me who my opinion is 'according to'? Yes, it's according to me. Call it an experienced guess from someone who knows how development works behind the curtains and is speaking from an opinion of the overall health of the game, not just what's fun for players who want to play werewolves (since, as I hope it would be obvious, there's no point pouring tons of resources into werewolf at the expense of other major areas).

At the end of the day, we can't force Zenimax to do anything. We can only suggest, hope for the best, then ultimately decide if what they give us is worth our money. When it comes to the latter, it's important to consider the realistic perspective (in this case, what changes Zenimax is ultimately most likely to actually make), because changing your perspective can help you enjoy what you end up with.

I believe, based on my years working in development, that Zenimax has far too much on their plate to devote serious resources to rebuilding Werewolf from the ground up at this stage (more realistic down the road). What is far more likely is value tweaks. They're reducing the ult cost, we know that, but the 'other buffs' they speak of are probably more likely adjustments to values, not mechanics. Making werewolf hit harder, or have higher armor, or making devour restore health faster, etc, etc, etc. Completely new features at this stage might happen, but they most likely won't happen for a while and we can't predict what form they will take. We know cost is changing, however, which is why I think it's an important point of debate. It's concrete. It's fact.