Dual Wield tree is lackluster

Obscure

@devriesmerwb17_ESO‌
It's nothing special. I wear full medium, Unassailable jewelry, and use blue VR2 swords. I'm not even really spec'd for single target DPS. I'm just another VR2 Dragonknight with DW Swords that hits things with basic attacks for WAY more damage than Flurry could dream of.

Quaesivi

Rapid + Basic attacks ends up surpassing pure basic attacks thanks to the attack speed boost actually. Also, what people don't get, that "oh you can't move, oh it costs stamina" argument is useful for everything, just go whack at things then. Problem is basic attacks bugs a lot for most of us and Flurry has longer range than basic attacks. AND you can break it, block or roll out of it, you don't have to just stand there, the skill is cancellable if you are in a "oh no" moment. Granted Flying Blade is a ridiculously good skill, that I don't argue, but Flurry is not as crappy as what you people seem to make it. But then again, its purely dependant on your stamina pool.

Gisgo

Im VR6 with overcharged stamina (blue weapons) and rapid strikes takes 40% of a regular monster's hp.
Basic attacks arent even close, they are just good to knock down after veiled strike and save some stamina.

Hexcaliber

Dual wield is perfect for high stam regen builds, it has the lowest stamina cost of any weapon skill line, allowing the player to continue spamming abilities long after other weapon types have run themselves dry.

It is so efficient I have respecced from sword n board on my redguard templar, and use it with restoring aura and focused charge on the hotbar. With careful management I never run out of stamina for attacks now, and only need use magic to close range and when I want to buff my health or stamina a little more.

Into the bargain I do a metric tonne more dmg than I did using SnB, and my survivability has actually gone up, particularly against larger groups.

Razzak

Obscure wrote: »

@Drathmar‌
As promised here's the Flurry damage test: Flurry Damage Test

The highest DPS I got with Rapid Strikes was 371 DPS and the lowest I got by just basic attacks was 499 DPS. I don't even really want to do a damage average I got over the course of my tests, lol. Flurry is not worth doing the math.

That's really surprising. Are we talking about two different games, now?

I am still at 39 and my flurry definitely does more damage than my basic attacks, which would imply things will change when I become VR. Shouldn't a skill point respec be free then? I mean it's dev's work that made this discrepancy, so it's either a free respec or a change to flurry's leveling.

Sightly off topic: Are there many such changes that happen when you reach VR levels?

P.S. Are you using any buffs to basic attack (igneous weapons)?

Chy

Dunmer, Dragonknight dual-wielder here and in this discussion no one has mentioned the "Ruffian" passive within the DW tree while discussing DPS; incredible. +15% damage vs. immobilized targets, combined with "insert your other bonuses here," is huge.
Volatile Armor - Burning Talons - Whirling Blades x2 = PvE mobs melting.
The OP is missing the bigger picture, regarding dual-wield. You only have FIVE slots to use in your bar and DW is the weapon line that allows you to have maximum flexibility when building one. I challenge you to present another weapon line that provides a HoT, attack speed increase/multi-hit attack, AoE/Stamina regen, a MISS buff and a 28m snare. Flexibility when working with only five skill bar slots is the real jewel of dual-wielding.

Zerl

I don't think that the DW tree is as bad as some people make out (although I do agree, it does need a little love).

Blood Craze - I find it's a good skill to use in prolonged fights. It keeps a reasonable DoT on the enemy whilst a handy HoT on you.

Flurry - Personally, I don't use as I prefer instant skills so can't comment

Whirlwind - Good little AoE with execute bonus.

Sparks - I think this is an underrated skill. I found heated blades to be great in PvP against melee along with a great defense for hunting elites (seriously, I would hunt trolls and giants and take 0% damage throughout the whole fight). Ember explosion is a handy AoE with a good debuff.

Hidden Blade - Haven't used it much to be fair.

Whilst none are "godlike", they aren't completely gimped.

Sivoj

Obscure wrote: »

@Drathmar‌
As promised here's the Flurry damage test: Flurry Damage Test

The highest DPS I got with Rapid Strikes was 371 DPS and the lowest I got by just basic attacks was 499 DPS. I don't even really want to do a damage average I got over the course of my tests, lol. Flurry is not worth doing the math.

Even if Flurry doesn't scale very well, several things are biased and make this test hardly relevant :
First when testing heavy attacks, the dps meter started when you hit the crab, so it didn't count the time to charge the first heavy attack. And fights are short so that mistake make the dps meter wrong.
Then, you didn't compared Flurry with light/heavy attacks, you compared Flurry with light/heavy attacks buffed by Igneous Weapon, which was not the point. Not every class have such buff.
Finally, if you just want to compare Flurry with a class skill, you should do it fair and include synergies provided by Ruffian or skills with armor reduction.

Obscure

@Sivoj
I won't stop you from choosing to consume stamina to deliberately lower your DPS, but there's literally no way you'll get me to see "bad" as viable. If it is currently better than your DPS with basics it doesn't mean the skill is good, just means your basic attack is bad.

Also if you understand the mechanics of Igneous Weapons (which is in fact what I was using prior to each test) you'd know it increases Weapon Damage which every weapon uses to determine damage, whether you're spamming Pulsar on a D-staff or wasting stamina on garbage skills like Flurry. The difference there is I get better buffing for basic attacks but the weapon damage scales like a bag of crap for Flurry. That demonstrates the entire beginning and end of the entire argument I use to point at Flurry and call it a pile of wet dog s***.

Fun fact, if I used basic attack weaving (starting with a light attack and animation canceling during heavies with light attacks) my basic attack DPS would have started earlier and been higher, and even further beyond what Flurry can do burning my stamina to do so.

Use it if you like, I won't stop you, but I also won't entertain that trash on my bars, in my builds, on in my parties, nor accept it as a viable skill.

Niminion

Obscure can you post some of your stats? Maybe your particular build makes flurry worse dps.

I am wondering if maybe your weapon damage is overcharged by a lot and your stamina isn't?

Or if you have attack speed enchants on your weapons, auto attacks would scale better than if you had damage proc enchants.

Thank you for the videos very impressive.

Crescent

Obscure wrote: »

@Sivoj
I won't stop you from choosing to consume stamina to deliberately lower your DPS, but there's literally no way you'll get me to see "bad" as viable. If it is currently better than your DPS with basics it doesn't mean the skill is good, just means your basic attack is bad.

Also if you understand the mechanics of Igneous Weapons (which is in fact what I was using prior to each test) you'd know it increases Weapon Damage which every weapon uses to determine damage, whether you're spamming Pulsar on a D-staff or wasting stamina on garbage skills like Flurry. The difference there is I get better buffing for basic attacks but the weapon damage scales like a bag of crap for Flurry. That demonstrates the entire beginning and end of the entire argument I use to point at Flurry and call it a pile of wet dog s***.

Fun fact, if I used basic attack weaving (starting with a light attack and animation canceling during heavies with light attacks) my basic attack DPS would have started earlier and been higher, and even further beyond what Flurry can do burning my stamina to do so.

Use it if you like, I won't stop you, but I also won't entertain that trash on my bars, in my builds, on in my parties, nor accept it as a viable skill.

Do you know if the rapid strikes part of it benefits you if you cancel the skill right away to have the 15% attack speed bonus on light attacks?

Also, how would it work for a sorcerer solo without igneous weapons, is critical surge comparable? Is it still better for a sorc who wants to go DW to just use light/heavy attacks?

Because if that's the case you just saved me a slot, which is great so I can put in a magicka skill instead.

I also need to test for the amount of hits in that time window since sorc survival is entirely dependent on critical surge, which means if more strikes crit I can get more immediate self healing.

http://esohead.com/calculator/skills#mMRztv9k8w2BO8w2CO8AIOU8Niqz8AIPq8NUoE8AIQ18NiaA8NNgI8heaf8AIUM8Nikc8L7rcdoQr6MdoQC6MdoQF8p7JMdBvT6MdBvj6MdBEI6MdBEp6cdBET8t7rLsgZ6Lsg18v7mranW8H7DLzf26LzwM6Lzwm6LbHm6MNieh6MNieA6MNieT6MNiey8J7brziD8K7JLkg6Lzuu6Lzuj6rzun6MANRQ6MANRZ857azx3TH6cx3TJ6cx3TO6cx3T38zf7zzNbo8zu7zzHfYE6zHfZd8zG7zzHQ3F8zI7zzJIoX6zJIkL8zN7zzJZcY8zA7zzKpUN8zL7zzK4EX

This is my prospective build, but I'm not too sure on the loadout, I guess the lack of stamina dump skill is not so bad as it gives me more opportunity to take advantage of dark conversion now that I don't have to worry about its stamina consumption gimping DPS.

But with a build so wholly focused on magicka using abilities and no good stamina dumps, im not sure if my leather will support it without the 5 cloth cost reduction and magicka regen?

I'm not even sure if steel tornado is worth it as it seems quite garbage so far, so maybe flying blade?

Obscure

@Niminion
These are my stats with Warlock jewelry and all my Buffs active.

These are my stats with Warlock jewelry just standing around doing nothing.

My stats look only slightly different right now (Unassailable jewelry and the Lord mundus stone), but in terms of Weapon Damage and Stamina allocation, these are identical stats.

Notably I do wear full medium armor and I do use weighted weapons, it's the best way to Dual Wield. That being the case, being able to so significantly out pace Flurry just by attacking enhances my build DPS and sustainablity leaps and bounds beyond those who use it.

@Crescent
I'm pretty certain the enhancement to attack speed triggers when you activate Rapid, there's a visual cue they added to indicate the buff in the form of a white misty looking particle effect on your hands. Unfortunately that does not increase the attack speed of skills, just basic attacks, thus a fair part of the buff duration is wasted during the Flurry animation. It's truly a waste of a skill slot.

As for Sorc theory craft my usefulness is pretty limited, though I do know a few battle hardened well seasoned Sorc players who I can ask on your behalf. Suffice it to say Crit Surge is very much comparable and will certainly help when it comes to DPS and sustain. But as for how it comes out in actual application, I feel like I'd be beyond my expertise in explaining. Give it a whirl, and you tell me how it turns out

Drathmar

So I see so many Sorc's as 2h, but is DW just as viable on them. I want a DW character but I have kind have abandoned my NB at this point for it with all the bugged skills and such to the point where they aren't great as melee DPS and better as just healers or sustain tanks and trying to figure out whether to go Sorc or DK with dual wield.

Crescent

Obscure wrote: »

@Niminion
These are my stats with Warlock jewelry and all my Buffs active.

These are my stats with Warlock jewelry just standing around doing nothing.

My stats look only slightly different right now (Unassailable jewelry and the Lord mundus stone), but in terms of Weapon Damage and Stamina allocation, these are identical stats.

Notably I do wear full medium armor and I do use weighted weapons, it's the best way to Dual Wield. That being the case, being able to so significantly out pace Flurry just by attacking enhances my build DPS and sustainablity leaps and bounds beyond those who use it.

@Crescent
I'm pretty certain the enhancement to attack speed triggers when you activate Rapid, there's a visual cue they added to indicate the buff in the form of a white misty looking particle effect on your hands. Unfortunately that does not increase the attack speed of skills, just basic attacks, thus a fair part of the buff duration is wasted during the Flurry animation. It's truly a waste of a skill slot.

As for Sorc theory craft my usefulness is pretty limited, though I do know a few battle hardened well seasoned Sorc players who I can ask on your behalf. Suffice it to say Crit Surge is very much comparable and will certainly help when it comes to DPS and sustain. But as for how it comes out in actual application, I feel like I'd be beyond my expertise in explaining. Give it a whirl, and you tell me how it turns out

Thanks! I just recently abandoned 2h and being a ranged sorcerer bores me to tears so informing me about Flurry's lack of usefulness really saves me some much needed slots; I always seem to be in want of more slots than I can have!

Do let me know whatever you can glean from your sorc friends, as I love all kinds of feedback for build making. I'd really appreciate it. I'll give it a few nights of play and report back on how my build develops in this thread.

Maximis_ESO

Drachdhar wrote: »

Title says it all.
It isnt bugged or anything, its just "meh".

Beyond Flurry, and its morphs, every other skill is something I dont even feel tempted to put a skill point into in case its a complete waste. Which is how they feel atm.
For a skill tree that is supposed to, in most peoples minds I think, to be heavy DPS it does not seem to deliver.
Currently feel I would have been better of going into Two Handed, but that would probably severely impact my Nightblade class skills in a negative fashion due to the way Magicka and Stamina boosts various things. Which there is a great deal of confusion about anyway.

I will tell you right now the DW does a heck of a lot more than 2 hand. Right now 2 hand has a lot of abilities that aren't worth getting. Momentum doesn't do full effect because overcharge is really low. NB get a class execute that is better than 2 hand execute. Uppercut is so easily countered, has a counter productive effect of knockdown and knock back and does only as much damage as a heavy attack. Charge is great but only does a lot of damage if you are morphed for it to do more from a distance and cleave is only useful if large groups and even at that the damage is EXTREMELY low.

I figure 2 hand and DW would be high damage trees but it seems the one hand got most of the high damage abilities as well as much of the needed utility that a DPS needs like slows etc.

Maximis_ESO

NordJitsu wrote: »

hahahah.

Flurry is the only bad skill in this line. Never ever use flurry. The number of light attacks you can do in that time do more damage than the skill. It prevents you from moving around and is easy to doge.

Flying Blade, Ember Explosion, and Whirling Blades are all crazy good. And I mean crazy good.

Blood Crazy aint too bad either for a single target build.

Dual Wield is quite possibly the best skill line in the game for DPS.

I would have to agree with you but one hand and shield does an extreme amount. From my experience, 2 hand gets worse as you level. At low levels it is very high damage and effective but as you level it seems to get worse. I have been playing around with 2 hand skill line since beta and noticed this months ago.

NordJitsu

@devriesmerwb17_ESO‌

If your Flurry is harder than your basic, then you are doing really bad basic attacks. Get better weapons or invest more in stamina.

Brakkar

I see you guys mostly are NBs here.
I have this small problem.
Actually not a problem in general but in PvP.
Way of entering combat, for a DK, is usually a charge.
DW lacks any form of charge.
Right now I use 2h as my offhand, then use Stampede and swap weapons immediately after entering combat. Which sometimes bugs out.
In PvE there are situations when I need to get close to pack of ranged mobs, like in vr dungeons, so I cant use Extended Chains because those pull only one and bug very often. I can't use the Dragon ultimate either, because its purely situational and mostly only useful in PvP.
Any suggestions?

Obscure

@Brakkar
DW has no gap closer, no stun, no immobilize, and thus should clue you in on the play style. DW in PvP is used when some punk thinks he's hot stuff and rushes into melee with you, not the other way around. Your second set should be bow, d-staff, r-staff, or if you're clever and skilled another DW bar. If you have a melee fetish though just pick up a 2h or 1h+Shield and gap close with those skill lines. But they are unnecessary uses of stamina better spent during an engagement rather than getting into one.

Personally my opinion is DW and Bow go together like burgers and fries for a Dragonknight. They want to be at range? Let them. Slap Reflective Scale on your bow bar and let them suck on their own projectiles. They want to close? Turn them off with Sparks, or morph it to Ember Explosion and stack the miss up with your Cinder Storm and medium armor Elude. My list of kills is filled with gap closing amateurs, who are tapped out before I've even gotten started.

Simply put, don't pursue melee with your DW bar in PvP, it's a waste of resources. Just let them come to you when they get sick of DPSing themselves at range.

Brakkar

I have most of that.
Was just hoping there was another way.

Crescent

I had to abandon my DW build for PvE as a sorc. Too much of the encounters are AoE intensive and the sorc class AoE is just not there, and DW does not have enough spike on demand heal in vet ranks without resto staff.

Also the magicka based damaging skills for a sorcerer do not mesh with a melee playstyle at all. Daedric Mines would be decent if not for the long arming time and huge magicka cost.

I felt my DW sorc had neither the burst, the CC, or the survival. It had pretty decent sustained single target, but that was about it. In between keeping surge up and rapid regen up, and storm form, that's a lot of magicka drain with capped magicka recovery and not a lot of room for spamming weak magicka based class skills like Mines which wipes out 1/3-1/4 of your magicka bar alone.

Packs of 3 mobs were intense, and 4 needed an ultimate. My 2h brawler+rally combo fared much better because the AoE is better than the miserable option DW sorc has and Brawler gave me enough shielding on top of the storm form for the regen to do its work instead of being overwhelmed by the spike.

Volatile familiar would have probably been my only option for AoE, but again that's a huge magicka cost for anyone who's not doing 5 light armor and investing heavily on the magicka stat, at which point your weapon damage with dagger is negligible and not worth it.

I think I may regret sticking with sorc and should have gon dragon knight or templar as they seem to have far betetr battlemage build options as their class based aoe doesn't suck and their self healing has spike on demand heals not RNG reliant ones.

Xsorus

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/tested-a-few-things-with-duel-wield-and-weapon-enchants/#post-468327

i'm currently testing different weapon glyphs with Duel Wield

Crescent

I want to amend my previous comment. I bankrupted myself down to 8k gold after respeccing 2 more times, and now found a comfortable dual wield spec.

Going full 7/7 leather instead of 5 leather/2 light upped my sustain with that nice 6% extra crit chance, and sparks is not only dirt cheap stamina wise, but it essentially takes out one mob out of a fight or even two for a few seconds you need to finish another mob off.

I also put 49 entire points on health and geared full stamina glyphs, while using magicka food. My stats are kinda bad at 1500 magicka/1900 health/1500 stamina buffed with food, mostly because I made the deep mistake of only leveling blacksmithing and clothing instead of leveling enchanting as well. Enchanting is what actually will give you most of your stats, and since I have it stuck at 9, I've had to buy white glyphs off the NPC, which is just bad. But enchanting looks to be hideously expensive or slow to level, so I'm not sure what I'll do.

I run sword dual wield with resto staff backup, though I wonder if I would be better off with either destro staff for fire clench or pulsar+wall of fire. It seems like killing mobs fast is more efficient than trying to have heals through vet mob damage.

Or maybe I should try sword+shield as backup but im not sure how much a hit I'll take in terms of selfhealing from losing mutagen/combat prayer for a stun on a charge and slightly better blocking. Plus I want to try life siphon at some point, with the speed of dual wield light attacks for like 50 heal per strike, and a cheap magicka cost it seems really tempting.

Drachdhar

Its not just DW tree that is lacking... I feel that most weapon skill lines kinda suck when compared to magicka based builds.

Drachdhar

So which morph of Sparks is most useful?

Crescent

Ember explosion. Ember Explosion+ elude= 60%+ chance to no be hit by a group of mobs. Pair that with storm form and critical surge, and you'll HP will barely go down.

Drachdhar

Storm Form and Crit Surge are class specific...

And IMO, class skills shouldnt be brought into discussion when the subject is a weapon skill. Especially given that some classes are currently somewhat more powerful than others in many situations.

And 60% miss chance with Elude, doubt its that easy... Elude gives chance to Dodge, which may be an entirely different thing over a straight miss.

Reykice

Could it be that basic attacks do more damage vs flurry due to the DK weapon buff that adds fire damage to their attacks?

Crescent

No, because sorcerers have surge and it's the same. Test it.

And @‌Drachdhar

If anything class specific skills for DK and Templar are even stronger, and both Templar and DK have far superior AoE and a spammable instant cast magicka based melee skill, which sorcerers lack (their only worthwhile magicka based offensive skill is a 1.3 sec cast).

Reykice

EDIT: Can`t test it i`m not @ VR level.

So @ VR i can expect 500 dps just via Heavy Attacks from DW?

Wow.

Thank you for the info its nice to see i can get that just via weapon attacks and leave skill slots for other things.