Dual Wield tree is lackluster

Drathmar

NordJitsu wrote: »

hahahah.

Flurry is the only bad skill in this line. Never ever use flurry. The number of light attacks you can do in that time do more damage than the skill. It prevents you from moving around and is easy to doge.

Flying Blade, Ember Explosion, and Whirling Blades are all crazy good. And I mean crazy good.

Blood Crazy aint too bad either for a single target build.

Dual Wield is quite possibly the best skill line in the game for DPS.

Flurry isn't actually bad. You can interrupt it with a block easily if you need to move/react. It also does more damage than the ~ 4 light attacks you get in the same time, not to mention each hit of it can proc enchantment effects.

mblythe21b14_ESO

NordJitsu wrote: »

hahahah.

Flurry is the only bad skill in this line. Never ever use flurry. The number of light attacks you can do in that time do more damage than the skill. It prevents you from moving around and is easy to doge.

What? Flurry is a channeled ability. You can move all you like. The problem is it has a bug at the moment where it locks you up making it so you cannot do other abilities until you open your character sheet. You can move all you like with Flurry.

Niminion

You can even start flurry at 7 meters and run the other direction and all the hits still do damage lol, who's gonna think to block while someone has their back to them! On bosses you can start it then walk out of their aoe while still hitting them. It's weird but I just assume my sorc uses magic weapons.

Obscure

Ummm what the actual f*** are we talking about here!? I'm not sure we're all playing the same game right now...

Go ahead and do a DPS test with Flurry...go ahead, I'll wait.

Done? Good.

Now just click your light attack rapidly. Congrats! You just found out how to improve your DPS and reduce your stamina consumption for much better sustain!

Flurry is garbage. And on that note, Blood Craze is garbage unless you're using it as a melee stealth opener as both phases of the attack count as stealth attacks. Otherwise throw them both in the trash and never look at them again.

Now the real meat and taters of DW is in whirlwind, sparks, and hidden blade. Whirlwind is one of few skills that ages like fine wine over the course of a fight. It literally gets better with time. The lower those red bars are around you the higher your DPS gets, not to mention the morph Whirling Blades restores stamina with an added kicker of more stamina per target after the first one.

Now moving in to Sparks we have a mean debuff that negates all melee attacks. One morph improves the damage of your next attack (like whirlwind) the other turns it into an AoE with the same base damage as whirlwind and a 40% miss chance debuff on everything in 5m of you. 40% isn't all that great by itself, sure, but guess what kids, miss chances stack from other sources and no enemy and I do mean absolutely no enemy is immune to miss chance. There are certain abilities like AoE's that ignore miss chance, but everything else is susceptible. Ash Cloud, Blinding Light, Elude, and even that Specter's Eye craftable set are all some of miss stacking options out there...Your welcome.

That then brings us to our favorite little skill that turns a melee fighter into a ranged fighter, Hidden Blade. Morph it to Flying Blade, spec hard into stamina, use reduce stamina cost jewelry, make sure you have those cost reducing passives, and just pump full range blades into whatever you want to die and it will do so in extremely short order. Were talking better ranged DPS than your bow wielding buddy with a Legolas fetish.

DW is a self contained ranged and melee, single target and AoE skill line other lines wish they could compete with. Saying it's bad is only indicating your ability to use it is bad.

Drathmar

Obscure wrote: »

Ummm what the actual f*** are we talking about here!? I'm not sure we're all playing the same game right now...

Go ahead and do a DPS test with Flurry...go ahead, I'll wait.

Done? Good.

Now just click your light attack rapidly. Congrats! You just found out how to improve your DPS and reduce your stamina consumption for much better sustain!

Did this, found the exact opposite result with recount

DPS with Blinding Flurry (rank 1): 114 to kill a lvl 20 draugh
DPS with only light attacks: 52 to kill a lvl 20 draugh.

Did both until the enemy was dead, same exact enemy, same weapons, no passives skilled yet, only blinding flurry skilled.

All DW passives skilled:

DPS with Blinding Flurry (rank 1): 146 DPS to kill a lvl 20 draugh
DPS with only light attacks: 62 to kill a lvl 20 draugh.

Ya, tell me again how light attacks are more DPS than Flurry. Next time do your own goddamned test before you say ***.

Obscure

@Drathmar
-.-'
Go test it in Cyrodiil where you're at least scaled to a level that DPS matters. Everything is effective when your level 20 because your stats are trash. Skills do not scale linerarly and once folks are all leveled up to be big boys and girls we out damage Flurry with white damage. Gives me an excuse to finally reinstall recount and post a vid to demonstrate how crap the skill is just to put this misguided nonsense to rest.

Low level, especially that low level, it's your only choice to level the line and since stats are, even with legendary level 20 gear, a pile of rancid horse ***, Flurry is going to be better...but only better than a pile of rancid horse *** mind you.

Drathmar

@Obscure‌
Okay in Cyrodill:

Only rapid strike vs grey viper butcher: 270 dps
Only light attacks vs grey viper butcher: 102 DPS

Only rapid strikes vs flame atronoch: 242 DPS over 8 seconds (then dead)
Only light attacks vs flame atronoch: 114 DPS over 14 seconds (then dead)

So um... ya you want to stop being condescending, or are you going to find some other excuse why it's wrong?

Rhythmic

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/85299/impale-dual-wield-bow-nightblade-sologank-50-v1-52-v2-pvp-movie-check-this-out#latest

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8krLrYX2ugo

Dual Wield,such lackluster,many 1v3 need more buffs to became imbalance.

PS.Flying blades morph,is a bit broken.You can spam anyone to death if he don spot it and hold block.

Rhythmic

NordJitsu wrote: »

Flurry is the only bad skill in this line. Never ever use flurry. The number of light attacks you can do in that time do more damage than the skill. It prevents you from moving around and is easy to doge.

Are you high?Its the best , high damage, single target 1.3sec burst dmg skill for stamina in entire game.(dont count broken bashes)
You can roll dodge anything in this game,not only flurry.You can run while doing flurry.And i'm pretty sure you can doge everything.

NordJitsu wrote: »

hahahah.

Ember Explosion, and Whirling Blades are all crazy good. And I mean crazy good.

Blood Crazy aint too bad either for a single target build.

Ember explosion is garbage for both , PvP(because 40% chance is simply WORSE than 100% chance),and PvE(u have Whirlwind you know)

Whirlwind is just OK for AoE in PvE.Its "crazy good" only against low HP targets.Analogs from bow skill line (bombard do more dmg,more radius,and CC/poison targets) for almost same stamina cost is just much much better.

NordJitsu wrote: »

Dual Wield is quite possibly the best skill line in the game for DPS.

Single target PvE DPS.Only in that case.

Jeggred

I have two questions regarding dual wield skills and Nightblades.

Does Ember Explosion (nearby targets miss all melee attacks) works with Mirage (NB Assassination: 15% miss chance + misses have a chance to set enemies off balance)? I'm referring to the off balance part.

Does Power Extraction (NB Syphoning: increase weapon damage by 11% for each enemy hit) work with Whirling Blades or does this only improve the light and heavy attacks?


Was thinking about something like this for aoe:

1. Sneak (ctrl)
2. Mirage (15 % miss chance for 26 sec + chance on miss to set off balance)
3. Lotus Fan (Sneak bonus on instant magic dmg + bleed)
4. Power Extraction (instant dmg and +11% weapon dmg per enemy hit)
5. Whirling Blades (instant dmg + bonus dmg with low health and stamina regen)

6.When needed Ember Explosion for 100% miss chance and setting enemies off balance from Mirage.
7. Ultimate Veil of Blades or Soul Tether.

Rhythmic

Jeggred wrote: »

I have two questions regarding dual wield skills and Nightblades.

Does Ember Explosion (nearby targets miss all melee attacks) works with Mirage (NB Assassination: 15% miss chance + misses have a chance to set enemies off balance)? I'm referring to the off balance part.

Does Power Extraction (NB Syphoning: increase weapon damage by 11% for each enemy hit) work with Whirling Blades or does this only improve the light and heavy attacks?


Was thinking about something like this for aoe:

1. Sneak (ctrl)
2. Mirage (15 % miss chance for 26 sec + chance on miss to set off balance)
3. Lotus Fan (Sneak bonus on instant magic dmg + bleed)
4. Power Extraction (instant dmg and +11% weapon dmg per enemy hit)
5. Whirling Blades (instant dmg + bonus dmg with low health and stamina regen)

6.When needed Ember Explosion for 100% miss chance and setting enemies off balance from Mirage.
7. Ultimate Veil of Blades or Soul Tether.

Cool strat....oh wait what is this?

BAM!

U have no stamina after using 2 blades.

Sivoj

Obscure wrote: »

And on that note, Blood Craze is garbage unless you're using it as a melee stealth opener as both phases of the attack count as stealth attacks. Otherwise throw them both in the trash and never look at them again.

Blood Craze is probably the highest single target damage weapon skill in the game. Most of its damage come from the DoT so you must not use it as stealth opener because the direct damage are rather low, that would be a very stupid idea (maybe you didn't get that ?) .
Damages are huge for any stamina or half stamina build, it does even more damage than Flurry and heals you for more than half the damage. Its an amazing skill unless you spam it like a dumb (it's a dot so once you applied it you do something else, like Flurry for exemple, which does much more dps than light attacks by the way).

Axer

If duel wield is lack luster..
2hand is utterly crap.

Anyone who leveld them both and feels they are even close, is out of there mind.

Duel wield can actaully do a bit of dps with flurry. Sure it still doesn't match up with class skills, and the aoe skill (whirlwind) doesn't match up with destro staff or any class skills.. But maybe it isn't meant to be.

Maybe flurry could get a small buff, but atm.. It's the only decent dps single target weapon attack. 2hand doesnt have crap that even does HALF of it's dps.

Sword and board does.. (shield bash) but yea we know its getting nerfed. And it's other skills are vastly inferior to flurries dps too.

So maybe it's lackluster compared to class skills and ranged weapons. But it's the best there is right now for melee.

Maybe im a bit biased having some extremely strong 1handers to play with and a class that doesn't have the best aoe clas sskills (templar wielding burning brand), but compared to 2hand, its simply night and day.

Omega_K2

The bad:
When I tested flurry it only does very slight extra damage compared to light attacks, around 10 extra dps (310 instead of 300, roughly), considering you get slowed, and it uses stamina as well as can miss if the enemies run around, I feel it's not worth wasting the slot on.

Twin Slashes is OK as finisher, but imho not worth taking the slot for-

Sparks seems mostly useless as well, as it has only rather limited viability, haven't tried the morph, so not sure about it.

The good:
Whirling blade is actually pretty awesome, it does decent AoE dmg, and versus low HP mobs it is awesome.

Flying Blade does good damage and snares, and you can use it to hit from a far. It's good vs mobs (esp melee + kite) and just really awesome in pvp.


Also the last passive is bugged, the crit for daggers doesn't work. So it's pointless to use a dagger.

Obscure

I'll post a vid later today to demonstrate the sub par damage of flurry and then I'll do a DW review to demonstrate how horribly, terribly, and savagely wrong some of you folks are about this skill line.

I'll leave you with a couple videos of how DW is done, and not with garbage low level stats:
VR5 dark anchor solo
Cyrodiil resource camp solo

Be seeing you all again real soon.

Thechemicals

Drachdhar wrote: »

Title says it all.
It isnt bugged or anything, its just "meh".

Beyond Flurry, and its morphs, every other skill is something I dont even feel tempted to put a skill point into in case its a complete waste. Which is how they feel atm.
For a skill tree that is supposed to, in most peoples minds I think, to be heavy DPS it does not seem to deliver.
Currently feel I would have been better of going into Two Handed, but that would probably severely impact my Nightblade class skills in a negative fashion due to the way Magicka and Stamina boosts various things. Which there is a great deal of confusion about anyway.

light or heavy attack+Flurry+twin slashes+puncturing strikes with biting jab morph

other skills needed- mages light with crit strike+medium armor crit strike passives+piercing spear passive crit strike.

Dual wiedling is a crit machine with great chaining of skills that is very smooth. You finish of this build with potions and items that improve weapon speed and you are pretty much doing speed crits in stylish fashion. Dual wield is sick but needs tweeking and care in its build. 2h is simple and needs little fore thought.

Drathmar

Obscure wrote: »

I'll post a vid later today to demonstrate the sub par damage of flurry and then I'll do a DW review to demonstrate how horribly, terribly, and savagely wrong some of you folks are about this skill line.

I'll leave you with a couple videos of how DW is done, and not with garbage low level stats:
VR5 dark anchor solo
Cyrodiil resource camp solo

Be seeing you all again real soon.

And once again you decide to be a condescending *** about something instead of actually trying to discuss it. You are the reason internet communities get bad names.

Anyway, sure, you might be right, that in better gear, were it pushes your stats above what they are normalized to in Cyrodill flurry might be better. Might. I will test for myself once I reach that point like I do in all MMO's. Just like I have done in previous MMO's because I know a lot of *** people put on the forums is just wrong. It's usually the people who act like condescending *** like you, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

But as long as flurry is double the DPS of light attacks and by far the most dps you get out of a 2h until you get your stats higher than the normalization for Cyrodill, it's worth putting a point in until then.

NordJitsu

This thread is absolutely hilarious.

Enjoy your Flurry then. I just pray you guys aren't EP so you can be easy targets for me.

But if you don't want to learn you can keep arguing with people (like @Obscure‌) who know what they are talking about.

And then you can continue to be a trash player who thinks Dual Wield is under-powered.

Gisgo

Maxed stamina flurry destroys most things in 2 hits.
OP you should argue with the guy that opened a thread because dual wield > two handed.

I have both maxed and with all the passives, and they are both good.

Obscure

@Drathmar

Not all of us condescending *** are condescending *** without good reason ... typically I'm charming, good humored, modest, but moreover extremely sarcastic.

The online communities are equally full of misinformation, and zealous defense of that misinformation, based purely on subjective opinion. I pull no punches in that regard and if that makes me an *** I'm okay with that.

The difference you are noticing presently with Flurry will shift as you level in favor of your basic attacks. I'll put it to rest later on today when I post the vid.

Rhythmic

DW is fine in PvP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8krLrYX2ugo

DW is amazing in PvE.(340dps vr2 NB against stonefalling boss in splidelclutch)

Stop this whine.

NordJitsu

Yup. @Drathmar‌ what level are you?

When people talk about builds, skills, viability, ect. they are typically meaning in end game content.

Flurry is okay at low levels but does not scale into Veteran Rank where it gets out paced by basic attack.

mblythe21b14_ESO

Jeggred wrote: »

I have two questions regarding dual wield skills and Nightblades.

Does Ember Explosion (nearby targets miss all melee attacks) works with Mirage (NB Assassination: 15% miss chance + misses have a chance to set enemies off balance)? I'm referring to the off balance part.

Does Power Extraction (NB Syphoning: increase weapon damage by 11% for each enemy hit) work with Whirling Blades or does this only improve the light and heavy attacks?


Was thinking about something like this for aoe:

1. Sneak (ctrl)
2. Mirage (15 % miss chance for 26 sec + chance on miss to set off balance)
3. Lotus Fan (Sneak bonus on instant magic dmg + bleed)
4. Power Extraction (instant dmg and +11% weapon dmg per enemy hit)
5. Whirling Blades (instant dmg + bonus dmg with low health and stamina regen)

6.When needed Ember Explosion for 100% miss chance and setting enemies off balance from Mirage.
7. Ultimate Veil of Blades or Soul Tether.

1. Siphoning Attacks ON!
2. Refreshing Path (heal and damage)
3. Sap Essence (heal damage boost)
4. Whirling Blades
5. Everything is dead.

The best Ult is Soul Tether imo. The stun is very helpful sometimes.

This is only good til 50. VR stuff is waaaaay different.

scy22b14_ESO

NordJitsu wrote: »

Yup. @Drathmar‌ what level are you?

When people talk about builds, skills, viability, ect. they are typically meaning in end game content.

Flurry is okay at low levels but does not scale into Veteran Rank where it gets out paced by basic attack.

Does this mean that the Haste ability will at some point become viable?

Drathmar

Obscure wrote: »

@Drathmar

Not all of us condescending *** are condescending *** without good reason ... typically I'm charming, good humored, modest, but moreover extremely sarcastic.

The online communities are equally full of misinformation, and zealous defense of that misinformation, based purely on subjective opinion. I pull no punches in that regard and if that makes me an *** I'm okay with that.

The difference you are noticing presently with Flurry will shift as you level in favor of your basic attacks. I'll put it to rest later on today when I post the vid.

@Obscure‌

Fair enough. I apologize for the harsh nature of the comment though. As I did say, if it is different at VR (and apparently it is) then that is fine. Its still a good ability while leveling, which at this point is all I personally can say about it. I did not realize the scaling was that skewed but with the way they have it set up with VR it does make sense and I should have realized that.

I will say I have found it very annoying to level a NB through the 20's (im in my 30s now) before you get both Siphoning Strikes and Drain Power, as the 20's are when you start seeing packs of 3 or more, yet don't have your best AoE/healing vs them.

NordJitsu

@scy22b14_ESO‌

Haste is a very very very good ability in certain builds. If you use it at range (morphed to Incapacitate) with Leeching Strikes active?!?!! Drool.

Obscure

@Drathmar‌
As promised here's the Flurry damage test: Flurry Damage Test

The highest DPS I got with Rapid Strikes was 371 DPS and the lowest I got by just basic attacks was 499 DPS. I don't even really want to do a damage average I got over the course of my tests, lol. Flurry is not worth doing the math.

Drathmar

@Obscure‌

Fair enough, it does seem that it scales quite badly.

Obscure

@Drathmar‌
Indeed. Better to dump it off your bar as soon as possible as to not develop a bad habit that'll leave you unprepared for end game. Hidden Blade is where it's at for DPS, slaughters things in PvE and in PvP you will rest on a water bed filled with the tears of your foes.

devriesmerwb17_ESO

Obscure, what VR ranking are you and what is your gear? I am VR3 DK and rapid is better than basics.