Game Breaking Addons

ragamerb16_ESO

After reviewing the API, I think ESO Devs still need to deactivate some more features. Before going in, I just want to point how I define a "Game Breaking" addon... In reality it's very simple, when the pressence of a given modification disables a basic gameplay mechanic... Following this simple definition here go my suggestions:

- Map Location Additions. Like nodes, skyshards, etc.... This work by creating a high precission coordinate system. This is the prerequisite needed for automated navigation (ie bots). This information in game basically removes the needs to invest into some Skillpoints. Create Serverside checks to allow ONLY players that have invested skillpoints into node visibility to access "extended" information (And rework this "visibility" to offer variety for ppl dedicated to gathering... And establish limits on how much info a given set of Skillpoins yield). This is a very important decission as the "rate of gathering" have a lot of impact on the Economy of a game... And anything that eases the creation of Bots needs to be removed from any game ASAP, IMO.

- Dynamic Recipes. Alchemy discovery gameplay is atm disabled completely by another in game database addon... Devs should decide if they want to keep this aspect of gameplay or simply put all properties of plants visible.

- Player Handler Visibility. This is not strictly game-breaking but a concern about security... Due to the poor decission of Zenimax to make publicly visible part of your login information (The account handler) coupled with how easy for an addon is to gather massive ammounts of player handlers, this will have an impact in the frequency of security related events. This is better handled by doing what any company concerned about the security of their custommers would do, which is having a username for login independent of the public handler any1 else sees but... As I think it's already too late for that, maybe controlling how addons access player handlers could help at diminishing this effect (It's hard to do... Because handlers are visible at very different points into the API, and the info is required for basic features to work, like invites, chat & guild functionality).

nzblustone

Bots always find a way. Though I haven't encountered any in ESO yet. And if you don't want an addon showing you where all the nodes are, then don't use it. I don't and I have skillpoints in all the Keen Eye skills which I prefer. Just because it exists and some people can save a skillpoint or two as a result it doesn't mean you have to as well, be an individual, play your own way.

In the case of the alchemy one If you don't like an addon don't use it, it's quite simple.

The third one is countered by the player taking responsibility for their account security. Not downloading keygens, not using the same password as they use on any website or their email account. A new email specifically for ESO. There are so many things a player can do to ensure their account security that despite the fact that I would prefer my character name being shown/used ingame I have no concerns about my account safety as a result.

TLDR: Gamebreaking is such an exaggeration. Relax and enjoy the game.

ragamerb16_ESO

Bots always find a way. Though I haven't encountered any in ESO yet.

Sadly, I'm afraid, I did... Don't want to enter in details as I managed to do a decent report for custommer support but at the core was that popular addon that allows importing node data from that popular site and then use that data to "access" nodes very fast...

...Just keep your eyes open and you will find them sooner or later.

ragamerb16_ESO

Just because it exists and some people can save a skillpoint or two as a result it doesn't mean you have to as well, be an individual, play your own way.

That works nicely... On a single player game but, if you care about Economy for example... Will you be able to compete against other gatherers without an addon like this?
That's how the whole issue always evolves... This kind of addons increase productivity beyond what the basic mechanic (Keen eye skill points) go, that in turn will make the mechanic obsolete for ppl really concerned about that specific gameplay aspect (In this case crafting/economy). Pile up enough of this on different aspects, and the game you designed will not look like anything your players are actually playing. As Dev you loose control of your game evolution really fast... And that's always bad news.

The third one is countered by the player taking responsibility for their account security. Not downloading keygens, not using the same password as they use on any website or their email account. A new email specifically for ESO. There are so many things a player can do to ensure their account security that despite the fact that I would prefer my character name being shown/used ingame I have no concerns about my account safety as a result.

The problem is a qualitative one... Do you go around on public terminals leaving your username behind? Doesn't matter how "tight" you want to keep your security... Tell me, the same user, been carefull in the same way... How hard would be to breach his/her account with his handler been public, compared to a situation were his/her handler was private?

The only answer possible above should tell you which companies care about their users and which ones use "relaxed policies" for "convenience"... How each person appreciates that, ofc, differs on how concerned they are about their security.

tallenn

I use the above mentioned addon, but I still get the keen eye skills. For one thing, it's not really all that helpful, unless I want to go around collecting mats which I can't sell in areas I've already been. Actually, it would be helpful if I could "turn off" most things it tracks, like resource nodes, and only see things like skyshards, because my map is getting really busy. It may even be possible -I'll need to look at the addon documentation and see.

As far as the alchemy: I don't use that addon, because it's trivially easy to use a simple web based chart that gives all the properties of all the ingredients. In game or not, it really doesn't matter. You simply can't keep things like that a secret unless you choose to keep them secret from yourself.

I agree on the third point, but it has really nothing to do with addons. ZOS needs to have a 2 username system, but one is public that everyone can see, and the other is private, which you use to login with. Every computer login is a 2 part security system: username and password. If you give up your username (which none of us has any choice not to), you give up half of your login information. That makes it MUCH easier to hack, than if the would be hacker has to start with nothing. Say what you want, but giving away the username does make it easier for hackers to succeed.

zmidponkneb18_ESO

ragamerb16_ESO wrote: »

- Map Location Additions. Like nodes, skyshards, etc.... This work by creating a high precission coordinate system. This is the prerequisite needed for automated navigation (ie bots). This information in game basically removes the needs to invest into some Skillpoints.

No, it really doesn't. Mods which note these nodes on the map only tell you that there was something there at some point in the past. It doesn't tell you there's something there now. The skillpoints you invest make it easier to see if there is something there now. This does not change because you have a map of where something has been found in the past. In essence, a mod that shows this information on your in-game map (or even compass) is simply a way of doing something in-game that is perfectly possible out of game - drawing your own map, or getting given one by somebody else, or looking up a node map on an external website.

Create Serverside checks to allow ONLY players that have invested skillpoints into node visibility to access "extended" information (And rework this "visibility" to offer variety for ppl dedicated to gathering... And establish limits on how much info a given set of Skillpoins yield). This is a very important decission as the "rate of gathering" have a lot of impact on the Economy of a game... And anything that eases the creation of Bots needs to be removed from any game ASAP, IMO.

Within limits. If you severely restrict what someone can or can't do with a mod too much in the interests of 'fighting bots', you may as well remove the ability to have mods at all.

- Dynamic Recipes. Alchemy discovery gameplay is atm disabled completely by another in game database addon... Devs should decide if they want to keep this aspect of gameplay or simply put all properties of plants visible.

Sorry, but this is also simply doing something in-game that you can easily do out of game. Players can, and will, simply alt-tab to an external website if this mod is disabled. Those who want to keep the feeling of actual experimentation in Alchemy simply need to fail to use this mod.

- Player Handler Visibility. This is not strictly game-breaking but a concern about security... Due to the poor decission of Zenimax to make publicly visible part of your login information (The account handler) coupled with how easy for an addon is to gather massive ammounts of player handlers

I would like you to explain this, because, if an addon is capable of getting my login name, this is disturbing, especially if, as you seem to be implying, an addon someone else is running could get my login name, along with anyone else they happen to bump into in-game. There is no real reason an addon should need this information. Character name, yes, login name, no.

this will have an impact in the frequency of security related events. This is better handled by doing what any company concerned about the security of their custommers would do, which is having a username for login independent of the public handler any1 else sees but... As I think it's already too late for that, maybe controlling how addons access player handlers could help at diminishing this effect (It's hard to do... Because handlers are visible at very different points into the API, and the info is required for basic features to work, like invites, chat & guild functionality).

This, I basically agree with. Many MMOGs have an authentication app of some kind that you can put on a smartphone/tablet/Ipod that gives a single-use code every time you log in, and there even at least one (Guild Wars 2) that just seems to use the Google one. Offering that as at least an option would be a good idea for ZOS.

Comaetilico

all the above mentioned function are already (and several of them were even before heastart thx to beta data) avaible just by making a quick google search... skyshards, tomes, resource nodes and the like... ther eis plenty of maps (with even screenshot or video for those not in plain sight)... all those addons do is simply saving the time to click alt+tab... or open the map on a second monitor/smartphone (actualy I still use a smartphone so that I don't have to run around with the map open...)

removing the addons will not really change a thing people will still have all those resources avaible with just one additional click...

PS: about the handle thing... you can read the chat (that is where you get the handle of other player since there is no other way aside from being in their guild/having them accept your friend request...) with 3d party programs... and that is what is generaly used by gold sellers and the like... and I bet that they'r using those the fact that handle are visible is a issue on ZOS side... addons have nothing to do with it... please avaid to mix things up...

Onikitsune

deep.orcaeb17_ESO wrote: »

Can't believe it, another thread about "GAME BREAKING" stuff...
"disables a basic gameplay mechanic" - what those addons broke for you? You had to install them? Threads like this are some kind of special olympics discipline...

THE END IS NEAR!!!

Regardless of what you think, the third point is absolutely valid. I did a few classes in college about security, and having the username available publicly absolutely IS a problem. Firstly, some people are ill-informed enough to actually use their first name, last name, and/or birthdate in their account name. Secondly, I know for a fact that "casual" users tend to make weak passwords, such as easily guessed ones or, even worse, short passwords. When the username is as available as it is (seriously, try to add someone as a friend or send them an in-game mail) it makes it VERY VERY easy to brute-force one's way into their account.

TLDR; We need an additional layer of security for our accounts or a change of login policy.

Drakent

- Player Handler Visibility. This is not strictly game-breaking but a concern about security... Due to the poor decission of Zenimax to make publicly visible part of your login information (The account handler) coupled with how easy for an addon is to gather massive ammounts of player handlers

I would like you to explain this, because, if an addon is capable of getting my login name, this is disturbing, especially if, as you seem to be implying, an addon someone else is running could get my login name, along with anyone else they happen to bump into in-game. There is no real reason an addon should need this information. Character name, yes, login name, no.


Actually addon can hack your PC, Addon's are 3rd party program that can have secondary program call a registry key virus wich will aloud them to get acces to your account and i speak from experience.

I play wow for 1 year and never was hack, did not know about addons until a year after playing the game b/c a friend told me about them and how to get them in a side call curse.com

A week after getting all my addon my account was hack and found a registry key virus. 6 months later all the addons had to be updated b/c wont work with the new patch so i updated them and again a week later i got hack and found a registry key virus again.

Nox_Aeterna

The usarname thing , i agree with and i even think they should change how they allow people to see it in guild...

Honestly , they should not allow that.

Now the map thing , i found funny. I was already using google to get all that info , having an addon just made it faster , but even without it , i would still have all that info one way or another hehe.

zmidponkneb18_ESO

Drakent wrote: »

Actually addon can hack your PC, Addon's are 3rd party program that can have secondary program call a registry key virus wich will aloud them to get acces to your account and i speak from experience.

This can only really happen if you're not downloading an addon, but a third party program (which isn't actually the same thing, by the way). Addons, for WoW and ESO, are essentially little bits of code that get added to the game and run by the game itself, within limits as determined by the developers of the game. This is how Blizzard and ZOS can disable certain addons if they decide they don't want them working, as happened with the original version of Decursive in WoW and what is termed the 'API nerf' in ESO. Third party programs are complete programs that you download and run by themselves, and can really do anything at all. This is why any time you download any program, from anywhere, it is always a good idea to make absolutely sure you have got it from a trustworthy source and you know exactly what it is supposed to do before you run it.

ragamerb16_ESO

I hate repeating myself... I can't be more specific because I got a report open with Support regarding this particular case but...

No, it really doesn't. Mods which note these nodes on the map only tell you that there was something there at some point in the past. It doesn't tell you there's something there now. The skillpoints you invest make it easier to see if there is something there now. This does not change because you have a map of where something has been found in the past. In essence, a mod that shows this information on your in-game map (or even compass) is simply a way of doing something in-game that is perfectly possible out of game - drawing your own map, or getting given one by somebody else, or looking up a node map on an external website.

The "note on the map" is a coordinate of a potential site of an item... Active nodes are ALWAYS on any of those locations. Suppose that you want to look for a specific material fast... What would you need to ellaborate an optimal route that visited each potential node on your "patrol" area?... As a human beign, could you compete with an optimized route like this?... It's already happening, you just need to pay attention... There are other factors involved in my report but the 1st step is having a perfectly accurate static navigation mesh of points of interest.

That's the key difference between having the same information in an independent site / aplication than from having it directly accessible by your client's coordinate system.

ragamerb16_ESO

I would like you to explain this, because, if an addon is capable of getting my login name, this is disturbing, especially if, as you seem to be implying, an addon someone else is running could get my login name, along with anyone else they happen to bump into in-game.

An addon can mimic basic features already present on your UI... Just check, for example, your guild tab... See how you are already seeing the "@xxxxxxxxx". Those are "handlers" in the wide sense as they allow you to communicate with a given account with independence of the active character that account is using. The main flaw on ESO is those handlers are, in fact, your username at login (This is by no means necesary... Plenty of other games have impleneted this handler system in the right way, allowing the user to define a complete different handler than their login). Well, addons can access those handlers because your UI needs them to work... Each time you invite someone, when you check your guild UI, when you right click on someone in the zone chat to whisper them, etc, etc. The other part of the problem is that addons can store data into files for legitimate uses, for example to keep the options you configure in them... ANYTHING an addon sees can be stored into those extenal files... As you can guess by now, it's trivial to store list of handlers into external files that later some other application can use to do whatever with them.

My english is not as good as I would like and translating technical mumbo jumbo doesn't make things easier... I hope that the explanation helped you figure the situation.

BlackTinuviel

While I agree with #3, your addon still can't actively upload information without some kind of user interaction or 3rd party program outside of ESO. So the user has to be willingly uploading the data. I think it needs to be removed though so it doesn't allow someone who thinks they are uploading only harmless data to upload their account name as well.

As for #1 and #2, I think there is no reason to disable these. You can accommodate the same functionality just by taking a browser window, going to a website, and then making it keep-on-top with transparency. Theses addons just makes it a bit nicer to use.

zmidponkneb18_ESO

ragamerb16_ESO wrote: »

The "note on the map" is a coordinate of a potential site of an item... Active nodes are ALWAYS on any of those locations.

But aren't always on any particular node. Thus, in order to easily see if something is actually there, you still need to invest the skillpoints you said no longer needed to be invested thanks to this mod, especially as the notes on the map aren't precise enough to lead you to the exact spot, only roughly the right spot.

Suppose that you want to look for a specific material fast... What would you need to ellaborate an optimal route that visited each potential node on your "patrol" area?

A note of where each of those nodes are. However, if it was impossible to have this done by a mod, there are plenty of other ways to do this, so banning mapping mods like this would actually inconvenience legitimate players more than it would inconvenience bot-makers.

As a human beign, could you compete with an optimized route like this?

Depends exactly on what I want to do. I have certainly had no problems farming for mats due to bots. There has only been the odd occasion where I've been frustrated by other players (and yes, they were definitely other players, not bots), so, unless you want to ban other players for being better than me at farming, your point, from my experience, is baseless.

It's already happening, you just need to pay attention... There are other factors involved in my report but the 1st step is having a perfectly accurate static navigation mesh of points of interest

That's the key difference between having the same information in an independent site / aplication than from having it directly accessible by your client's coordinate system.

You haven't explained how having this information available as a mod is inherently required to make a bot. The main reason, quite frankly, seems to be that this isn't actually true. Let's suppose, for a moment, ZOS decided to nerf the mod API a bit more to eliminate any possible way of a mod to map harvesting nodes. Do you not think that bot-makers would simply make an out of game map of nodes, and use that to code their bots? The only way to prevent someone making an out of game map of nodes is to make doing so against the terms of service, and thus a bannable offense. Even leaving aside how ridiculously over the top this would be, there's the problem of enforcing this. How the hell would they know someone has made such a map, and thus should be banned?

Seerah

Addons cannot be bots. Movement functions are private and not accessible by addons. Bots have to be 3rd party software. They don't need an addon to tell them where things are on the map.

ragamerb16_ESO

Depends exactly on what I want to do. I have certainly had no problems farming for mats due to bots.

And I had... And I have seen how it works on ESO and that's why I did the report and that's why I can't comment on the details...

...But I can tell you that I'm not somekind of guru or some1 with any special observation capabilities...

...I just played enough MMOs with addons like this to know that, under the right circumstances, they allow what I'm concerned about... And I have learned to recognize the patterns and I had the patience to actually stalk someone doing this on ESO until I got all the details for a usefull report...

...And if you look for fast solutions before the thing escalates out of hand, the fastest is to disable this kind of addons while you address the other components needed, which, sadly requires deeper changes on the game.

I just can hope other players saw what I did and help reporting this, instead of thinking this "benign" databases they are helping to build will not be used to generate REAL income for ppl outside ESO that will end damaging the game experience for all...

...And I think I told too much already.

Seerah

I don't understand why you can't talk about a report...

Jadeviper1974

As as far as the map location stuff, I disagree for a different reason, that being its not actually that convenient, the locations are uploaded to your world/area map and frankly there are so many of them that just after running it for a couple of days it is causing a great deal of clutter on my map. Also, since these loc's aren't displayed on a mini map you are switching back and forth between the map and game to see if you are close. What I use it for is to get to areas that may have a larger concentration of items, but like I said there are so freaking many nodes that even that is becoming less useful.

Jadeviper1974

Seerah wrote: »

I don't understand why you can't talk about a report...

Because its a secret! Shhhhh, special secret...my special secret....precious secret....my preeeccciiiouuusss!

(Nasty hobbitises made me misspell, had to correct for the precious.)

BlackTinuviel

Jadeviper1974 wrote: »

As as far as the map location stuff, I disagree for a different reason, that being its not actually that convenient, the locations are uploaded to your world/area map and frankly there are so many of them that just after running it for a couple of days it is causing a great deal of clutter on my map. Also, since these loc's aren't displayed on a mini map you are switching back and forth between the map and game to see if you are close. What I use it for is to get to areas that may have a larger concentration of items, but like I said there are so freaking many nodes that even that is becoming less useful.

This doesn't mean you need to remove the ability. You can stop using addons you don't like. I'm sure that addons in the future will add filtering features to help to.

ragamerb16_ESO

I don't understand why you can't talk about a report...

Because a detailed report include player names and ways to exploit the game...

...As my concerns about the activity (In particular the generalized use of that "activity") were what made me do the report itself...

...Would you comment publicly the details about it so more ppl were inclined to do the "activity"?

I don't.

Carde

Are we seriously going back to tearing the API apart again? You guys aren't going to be happy until its gone. Just remove it, ZOS, lets move on to the next devil already.

Pang

ragamerb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't understand why you can't talk about a report...

Because a detailed report include player names and ways to exploit the game...

...As my concerns about the activity (In particular the generalized use of that "activity") were what made me do the report itself...

...Would you comment publicly the details about it so more ppl were inclined to do the "activity"?

I don't.

Bots and Hackers will always exist and they don't need the API or Addons to do so. The API isn't some magic portal that lets the hackers in.

Bob

Back off! This is all i can say to you, OP.
But wait, i can say a bit more - whiners like you already killed almost all addons in this game. So, back off!


Also ban all multi-monitor PC configuration, smartphones and of course www.google.com , www.esohead.com etc

Bob

btw

Map Location Additions. - why should you care?
-
Dynamic Recipes. - why should you care?

Player Handler Visibility. - What? game already has HUGE WHITE ARROWS in PVE and faction icons in PVP. Just WTHell... If you can, then link me this addon. I beg you!

Kemono

Map Location Additions- you better be kiding with this one. You want to know whats best "addon" to quickly farming mats without spending point in Keen Eye?
- Oh yea -its devs, in game allready, addon "Turn off the grass"


Dynamic Recipesseriously "gamebraking", really - i dont need this when i have a wiki with all reagents researched listed on second screen.
Seconds screens (and alt-tabing) should be banned cos gamebreaking!!!

Addons -serious business

Wreaken

Truth is, you can do everything known to man to stop botting or scripted programs, but they will always work out a way around it.

That's the whole point of computer programming, it gets better as time goes on.

Jadeviper1974

BlackTinuviel wrote: »

Jadeviper1974 wrote: »

As as far as the map location stuff, I disagree for a different reason, that being its not actually that convenient, the locations are uploaded to your world/area map and frankly there are so many of them that just after running it for a couple of days it is causing a great deal of clutter on my map. Also, since these loc's aren't displayed on a mini map you are switching back and forth between the map and game to see if you are close. What I use it for is to get to areas that may have a larger concentration of items, but like I said there are so freaking many nodes that even that is becoming less useful.

This doesn't mean you need to remove the ability. You can stop using addons you don't like. I'm sure that addons in the future will add filtering features to help to.

Ohh, no no no, the ability should absolutly not be removed that isn't what I was saying at all. I was just commenting on the add on's as they stand. I mean it isn't like that thing drives your character to the resource and harvests it for you. I like the add on's thing, it shows they at least thought ahead about one thing.

Carde

Just saw a botter farming a public dungeon boss. He'd jerkily run back to his starting position after each kill and then spam left clicks at the spawn point until the boss appeared, walking slowly towards it spamming Mage's Fury.

Guess addons weren't the problem.

ragamerb16_ESO

Truth is, you can do everything known to man to stop botting or scripted programs, but they will always work out a way around it.

That's the whole point of computer programming, it gets better as time goes on.

That's were you don't understand the difference... I don't mind botting (Up for each person to decide if to pay for a computer to play for yourself is worthy) and no sane Dev will spent time trying to prevent every single automation possible...

...The problem is when the bot plays better than the player... In this case gathers better than the player. And it's very simple... Devs don't have an option, fix the multiple components needed for this to happen or loose that part of the gameplay to bots.

EDIT: Sadly, escalation has started... Soon you will all meet what I was trying to warn about (The have grown bolder in just 2 days, and do not try to hide themselves anymore... The Race has begun)... Once you see it for yourself (Don't forget to report the players) think on the different elements needed for that to happen and then consider which of those elements are easier to disable to slowdown the process.